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Boundaries are bullshit. They create a parent/child relationship as far as I’m concerned.

Loukas I am going to push back on that one.... (I know, I know, you're SO shocked that Ellie would have an opinion on something )

A healthy boundary isn't me telling the other person how to act or trying to direct their behavior, like a parent would. A boundary is me telling myself what actions/behaviors I am willing to accept from the other person. Cus they (whoever 'they' may be - spouse, parent, coworker, friend, etc) are gonna do what they are gonna do, no matter if I tell them to or not. But I get to decide if what they do is ok with me.

I completely agree with you, Ellie. I just prefer a marriage that didn’t require boundaries. To me, we just had mutual respect for each other. The golden rule, kinda thing. Boundaries tainted that in my opinion.

in order for person B to have sex with person A, but all person C had to do was give a wink and a smile

I, in general, think that most relationships are transactional in some way. When we talk about "kibbles" here, what are we actually saying? I tell you your pretty (words of affirmation), you f**k me (physical touch). I fix the car (acts of service) you sit and talk with me (quality time). I know we don't like to think of it this way, but, relationships are, at the heart, transactional. Now, we don't have to THINK about it that way, I'd like to think my boss really likes me and values my contribution, for example. But, end of the day, he's paying me for a job, and it's got very little/nothing to do with anything but "pay X, get Y".

Where this really runs off the rails for me is when people are using "counterfeit bills". My W's A, as many WW, was the standard "words for sex" trade. In the love languages, words of affirmation for physical touch. But, WOA as a love language has a huge issue; and, sadly, in most affairs, that "issue" is well understood. They can be faked, easily. Tell me I'm beautiful, tell me you'll marry me, tell me whatever I want to hear.. And that's exactly what the AP does, and, in return, they recieve sex. But there's no "faking" that love language. Or faking quality time. Or faking gifts or acts of service. WOA stands alone as the LL that can easily be (and very often is) faked. Yes, it's my W's LL, and yes, I hate it, probably the same as she hates mine (physical touch, which, of course, shocks nobody who reads my posts). I just hate the fact that people use WOA every single day to manipulate and control others, the more that's your LL, the more susceptible you'll be. For me, it's got to be dead last. I have no use for WOA at all, "atta boy RIO" at work is worse than nothing at all. You value me, pay me. You think I'm God's gift to women, have sex that makes my mind explode (and have your head examined). Don't "tell me" I'm great, show me.

Boundaries tainted that in my opinion.

Absolutely did for me. Before the A, the limits to what I'd do for my WS were basically "anything she wants". Now? There are a ton of boundaries, and, speaking for myself, I hate them and that this has become my relationship. I want to be free again with her, you want it, I'll get it/do it/figure it out. Now, it's all seen through a different lens, and that lens, well, sucks.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 4:53 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]

On occasion, affair partners will go on to have a relationship have the affair is uncovered, but that’s rare. In the vast majority of cases, those relationships can’t survive the condition that every relationsip must eventually face — reality.

Whoa whoa whoa, this is hogwash. I'm sure my ex and that shlubby fella she left me for after a couple month tryst, and promptly moved in with the second I moved away 6 weeks after DDay, are very happy and fulfilled in their Precious Fantasy World. I'm sure she took a long hard look at herself and did the work to fix her shortcomings and he's very supportive and not just Yes Dearing her for a limited time so he can bang some reptilian skank 10 years his junior. Nope, they're doing just fine, and frankly, I'm appalled that anyone might suggest otherwise. *harumph*

[This message edited by AbandonedGuy at 5:03 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]

Totally hear that Loukas - but you know how the saying goes... If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, then none of us would be dealing with spouses who banged other people (Not sure if that's the original version, I might be paraphrasing).

I dunno, for me tho? Being an adult child of an alcoholic, and having dealt with a very emotionally/mentally abusive dad, and now a cheating shitheel of a husband... Healthy boundaries are essential. I have made that mistake a LOT in my life with expecting others to treat me with the same respect I treat them, and rarely has it ended well. I am actually working with my IC on being able to be OK with setting down those healthy boundaries and sticking to them. Just my 0.02.

Abandoned guy-

Were you able to type that with a straight face? I’m sensing that you might be writing in the sarcastic font.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, then none of us would be dealing with spouses who banged other people

The first half rolled off the tongue like a well oiled oompa loompa rhyme, the second half, not so much.

Any kind of relationship is transactional. Romantic partners, roommates, friends, affairs, boss/employee, etc. The only difference is the nature of the currency.

Healthy boundaries are essential.

Here, here Ellie. Agreed!

If you don't believe in the necessity and importance of boundaries in all relationships, my guess is that you need to work on yours. Because when you actually have boundaries, you understand their fundamental and essential existence.

I don't do this to get that, but if I am this and you are not that, I simply move on. Time is finite. I have more satisfying relationships to nurture.

Any kind of relationship is transactional.

Yep. Have standards, people.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:48 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]

A healthy boundary isn't me telling the other person how to act or trying to direct their behavior, like a parent would. A boundary is me telling myself what actions/behaviors I am willing to accept from the other person.

How are they supposed to know what you want if you don't tell them? This is a huge problem in my relationship today, I have/had certain boundaries or "must haves" coming out of the A, but, I'm not sure how my would have known what they were if I didn't tell her. So I did tell her, and, of course, now her doing those things has been reduced to something far too transactional to feel authentic.

Any kind of relationship is transactional. Romantic partners, roommates, friends, affairs, boss/employee, etc. The only difference is the nature of the currency.

Sure. It just makes us all incredibly uncomfortable to think that sex is some of (or all of in some affairs) the "currency" that's offered in a relationship. Sounds way too close to prostitution and makes us all exceedingly uncomfortable. Is "sex for your words of affirmation" fundamentally different than "sex for money"? It's not a huge leap, that much I'd argue, for sure.

What I always thought (before the A) and what I want to believe again is that sex is different. It's not a "sex for words" trade, it's a "sex for sex" trade. And that is hugely, and fundamentally different to me. It would be like me trading someone an old design 100 dollar bill for a new 100 dollar bill. I'm trading it not because one has more value, but because we have something of equal value, you just like my design and I like yours. It's an "even trade", we're both happy with the outcome and we traded two things that are basically identical.

Once you venture into the "you tell me I'm beautiful, I f**k you" realm, you're trading X for Y. Two very different things that looks much less like trading 100 dollar bills and a whole lot more like laying down 100 dollar bills in return for a new stereo. And, of course, from there, it's not a large leap to laying down 100 dollar bills for a BJ or for sex. It's often said that sex and words are the currency of an affair, but, it feels like they are also the currency of a typical male/female relationship. It's an insignificant step from that to a place that I personally don't want to go. And for those who's love language is gifts, well.. I really can't see any distinction there at all, if you're f**king your AP because he brings you diamonds and pearls, I honestly don't see any distinction there at all between that and dropping 100's on the nightstand on the way out the door.

I read awhile back an article about the rise of "soft prostitution" which was centered on "sugar babies". Basically, for those aren't aware, it's a relationship where the "sex for gifts/money" element is more front and center. Instead of "50 for a BJ" it's "300 for a date" and that date, while nearly always including sex, it's not the sex that's being paid for, it's the "date". Of course, this all requires a HUGE helping of cognitive dissonance to distinguish from "hard prostitution", but it also builds a bridge that wasn't there before between professional sex and sex in a relationship.

Honestly, IDK, the entire thing creeps me out. If this is really the "norm" (sex being traded for things that aren't the other's persons sex), let's just accept it, commercialize it and move on. Because all this stuff moves into hugely gray areas, I'd much prefer "Yes, I love to have sex with you too, and I'm not doing it so you'll say nice things to me, I'm doing it for the same reason you are, to get off together" OR "I don't enjoy sex very much, but I enjoy money a lot, leave 100 by the door". I don't like the "middle ground" because I have no idea if I should say "thank you" after sex or expect a "thank you".

Boundaries vs. expectations. I spent some time trying to get my H to understand the difference. I have boundaries, things I will not do and will not allow. I don't have an expectation that other people will abide by my boundaries. They are about me, not them.

I get what you're saying about giving freely with no strings attached. That's how I give. I am also very discerning about what and how and to whom I give. Those are my boundaries. My H gave, gave, gave and did, did, did, but there were always uncommunicated strings attached. That's not giving or loving.

I think most people are transactional. The financial earner who says, "I work hard every day to provide for you. I deserve for you to take care of me when I am home." Or, the person who says, "I slaved in the kitchen all day!"

We learn it in early childhood. If you eat your peas, you can have a cookie. If you clean your room, you will get an allowance. If you don't yell today, I'll give you a gold star. I'll give you a dollar for every A on your report card. And, of course, it goes on into adulthood with just about everything else.

We don't want to give unless we get or else we're weak and being taken advantage of, fear based. However, if we truly give freely, we can't be taken advantage of. There is no fear of losing.

@RIO: Or those headlines you may read about X% women surveyed admit going on dates just for free meals. Bet not much gets transacted the other way.

I was apalled when one of WW's female friends told her I should be willing to drive her everywhere because I received sex. She didn't know at the time WW was actively cheating on me. She was also a perpetual dater, 50 years old with a BF 10 years junior (who she was contemplating breaking up with). Not exactly a fountain of good advice IMO. WW is the type that had more male friends than female, but the few female friends she does have seem to be all cheaters, OW, or perpetual daters. The company you keep, sheesh

It came up because WW told her she was practicing driving and that I didn't want to drive her everywhere. I really resented that comment, I didn't sign up to be a chaffuer paid with sex. The infidelity inflamed it further because another man was raiding the pantry.

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 7:20 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]

Not sure I am following you, cheatstroke.

KingRat

I guess I was trying to comment on how I think that the unconditional nature of the love that the WS feels for the AP is the same or at least very similar to the unconditional nature of the love that a parent feels for a child.

When I think of unconditional nature of the love that a parent feels for a child, I think:

Your child could literally do anything, including harming you and the rest of your family, and you would still love them and never regret having them.

When I think of unconditional nature of the love that a WS feels for the AP, I think:

If I, a male non-AP, on any given Saturday, decide to:

1) lay on the couch all day

2) watch porn and repeatedly masturbate

3) watch sports on TV

4) drink alcohol all day

5) skip chores and other responsibilities

my chance of having sex on that Saturday night with anyone other than myself is pretty much zero.

From what I've read here and other places, MOST MALE AP's, on that same given Saturday, can decide to do ALL of the things on this list, and yet, on that same given Saturday night, that male AP has to offer up nothing more than a wink and a dickpic, and the WS will not only DRIVE TO them to give them rounds of sex, they will give them blowjobs, anal sex, and whatever else the WS can think of. The time allowed by the lie that the WS told is the WS's only constraint.

The AP can literally do anything, including harming the WS and the rest of the WS's family, and the WS still loves them and never regrets having them.

To me, this indicates the totally unconditional nature of the love that a WS feels for the AP in the WS-AP relationship, and is very similar if not just like the unconditional nature of the love that a parent feels for a child.

Boundaries vs. expectations. I spent some time trying to get my H to understand the difference. I have boundaries, things I will not do and will not allow. I don't have an expectation that other people will abide by my boundaries. They are about me, not them.

At the risk of opening this can of worms again, I'm not sure there's as much (or any) of a distinction between a boundary and expectation. For example, my boundary was (the can of worms), "I will not be e-mail the AP to find out what it's like to enjoy sexual act X with you". Was not going to happen, no way, no how. But is that a boundary (I won't do it) or an expectation (we'll have those experiences together or I'm going to D)? IDK. And more importantly, is there a distinction there that's actually meaningful? Making it about something else, another boundary of mine was "Drop the AP" (and I think that's true for most of us). The expectation is that, of course, our spouse "drops the AP". And if they don't I would have responded with D papers. Boundary or expectation?

@RIO: Or those headlines you may read about X% women surveyed admit going on dates just for free meals. Bet not much gets transacted the other way.

Yes, that's on the other end of the spectrum, but I agree with you. And that spectrum goes from "sex for sex" (what I deeply want) to "sex for cash" (prostitution). Everything else lies somewhere between the two, sex for kibbles, sex to get him to mow the lawn, dates for cash that will likely include sex. It's a long line from the "pure trade" (you give me your old hundred, I give you my new one) to purely financial (I don't find you attractive at all, but I'll sleep with you because you gave me money). And the line has blurred a lot, both because women are more willing to monetize sex and, of course, because men are more willing to accept monetized sex.

Part of me is horrified by it, part of me thinks "this is capitalism at work". There are a lot of men with an "excess" of money and a deficit of sex. A lot of women with an "excess" of sex and a deficit of money. As such, it's just "the market" at work. And that same market was at work for my W in her A. She had plenty of money, plenty of sex, but a deficit of words of affirmation. The OM had a deficit of sex. As such, one of the more common "affair trades" or "affair transactions" was set up, words for sex. We see that one here many times a day, and while I don't know for sure, I think it's probably the most common of the affair transactions.

Problem is, coming back into the M after that. Imagine if you can, my W was out having sex for money in her affair. I'm sure there are some cases of that happening, and, if you try to R from that, what do you do? Leave money by the bedside after you finish? It's obvious that what she wants from sex is money, just like it's obvious to me that what my wife wants from sex is words. And while I can (and do) provide them, the nature of that trade has fundamentally altered the way I look at sex. I thought we were (both my W and women before that) trading sex for sex, and that trade I was totally happy with. But I don't feel the same about sex for words, in fact, I feel it's nearly indistinguishable for me personally than sex for money makes me feel when I think about it. And that thought makes me recoil from the thought of sex with my W, not that I think that sex for money is wrong, I don't, but at the same time, I don't want that type of relationship with my wife.

From what I've read here and other places, MOST MALE AP's, on that same given Saturday, can decide to do ALL of the things on this list, and yet, on that same given Saturday night, that male AP has to offer up nothing more than a wink and a dickpic, and the WS will not only DRIVE TO them to give them rounds of sex, they will give them blowjobs, anal sex, and whatever else the WS can think of. The time allowed by the lie that the WS told is the WS's only constraint.

Of course, this is also a big problem, and very much a part of my personal story. A few "I love you so much's" and she on her way to a parking lot somewhere to blow him. After he finished having sex with his wife that morning. Not a care in the world, right?

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:03 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]

RIO,

I suppose I can see why it makes you uncomfortable, but to me it’s just common sense.

You gave the example of boss/employee. You give him X (job performance), he gives you Y (your paycheck). Totally logical, right? Ok, so extrapolate that same logic to personal relationships. Let’s take my marriage. Sex is not part of the equation, so what other things do we “give” each other? I work, but only part-time, so he “gives” the household the majority of the money. I in turn “give”/provide most of the childcare, cooking, and cleaning. If either of us stopped providing the particular “currency” within the “transaction,” the relationship would not be worth it. Same with sex, companionship, emotional intimacy, etc. in other people’s marriages. Same with 1/2 the rent and shared chores in a roommate situation. Same with reciprocal companionship and emotional support and conversation in a platonic friendship. I guess it’s uncomfortable to reduce every interpersonal relationship to, at its bones, a “transaction” of some sort, but it’s reality.

I suppose I can see why it makes you uncomfortable, but to me it’s just common sense.

I agree, but, people argue vehemently against it, to the point where, for a long time, I believed it (with "it" being that committed relationships were different).

I guess, using the boss/employee analogy, I was under the impression that both of us "really enjoyed this job" (with the "job" being sex). So, sure, it was transactional to some extent, but, even if you stopped "paying me", I'd still do the job because the job is something I love to do.

Same with reciprocal companionship and emotional support and conversation in a platonic friendship.

This one is different to me (as is the roommates situation). It's different because we're both giving the same thing to one another, I give you my friendship, you give me yours. It's an "equal trade of like goods". And that's how I viewed sex, we were trading the same thing to one another for our mutual benefit. Using your analogy, if you took that platonic friend and changed the relationship to "I unload my troubles, and then hand you money", it's an entirely different relationship, even if the net result is the same (your troubles have been unloaded), it's just different because it's an unequal trade. Or, opening another can of worms, the difference between a man being a woman's friend with the hope of getting in her pants vs being her friend with the hopes of getting her friendship in return. One of those we recoil at, the other we think is great and healthy.

I think that a transactional relationship has nothing to do with unconditional love. My transactional relationship with everyone was always doing something to deserve love rather than just realizing I was worthy of love without having to be a martyr to get it.

Transaction means “I do this to get something” and it’s usually something specific.

I feel like in marriage of course you do things to have a better marriage. So compromises are always important. But in a healthy relationship in which you are truly connected, you also do a lot of things from the heart- even when you are compromising. It was eye opening to me that where love is best experienced, where the butterflies come from, are when I am planning special things for my h because I love him. When I am doing those things because I want to not to get something. It's always nice to receive, and never good to feel neglected or unappreciated...but the best part of love is totally in the giving. Infidelity screws that up for a long time. Who wants to give something to the person that cheated on you?

I don’t think anyone loves unconditionally, it’s okay to have standards, boundaries and expectations. In fact, I would argue after what I have been through that if you don’t have self love, where you look after your own happiness as well you really can’t effectively love someone else.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:55 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]

RIO,

I have been in committed relationships where sex was a mutually enjoyable and mutually desired experience. I have actually had a couple relationships where almost EVERYTHING “typical of a relationship” was of mutual back-and-forth, give-and-take. I suppose then perhaps it’s my skewed and jaded cynicism that STILL looks at that as transactional, even though it was mutual. I’m angry with myself, I suppose, for not choosing wisely when I should have. You probably shouldn’t listen to bitter old me.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 9:13 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]

How are they supposed to know what you want if you don't tell them?

Again just speaking for my own self... A 'want' and a boundary to me are not even the same thing. But I am not saying don't tell them. For me - it is MY responsibility to determine what I will/will not allow as far as behaviors/activities/treatment/etc. That is incumbent upon me as a responsible adult to know that about myself. When I am in a relationship, be it a romantic one, a friendship, ANY relationship - it is also my responsibility, my part of that relationship to clearly communicate those boundaries to the other party. Not to 'lay down the law', not to say 'do this or else'. But to make sure that everyone is on the same page. I cannot control whether or not they choose to respect my boundary, but I can choose whether or not I stick around if they don't. Expectations are a different conversation to my eyes as well, but I haven't had enough coffee to clearly communicate the difference.

I understand it being fuzzy. Slight t/j, but this is the only way I know how to describe what a boundary feels like. As I said, I am an adult child of an alcoholic (me mum). I dealt with that for years and I was every bit as sick as she was. There was nothing I wouldn't do for her, even if it meant doing things that were detrimental to my own mental health and well-being. On her last night of drinking I finally hit what they call in alanon the 'drop the rope' moment. Where you put down any illusion of control of that other person (because you have none and never did). It became very simple: if she didn't quit drinking, I would not continue to maintain a relationship with her. This wasn't an ultimatum, because whatever she decided at that point simply did not matter to me. I still loved her, I wanted her to get sober, but I wouldn't deal with her drinking anymore regardless of what choice she made and very calmly, that is the conversation I had with her the next morning. That, to me, is a boundary. Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt if the other person crosses it, or chooses the 'wrong' path, and it certainly doesn't mean I will always get what I want, but simply that I won't keep myself mired in an unhealthy untenable situation, and that I will not attempt to control the other person's behavior.

But I don't feel the same about sex for words, in fact, I feel it's nearly indistinguishable for me personally than sex for money makes me feel when I think about it. And that thought makes me recoil from the thought of sex with my W, not that I think that sex for money is wrong, I don't, but at the same time, I don't want that type of relationship with my wife.

We want to be wanted and desired by the one we're with, whether it's a ONS or a spouse. That's human and healthy. I personally have a hard time imagining paying money for sex not because I don't think sex is valuable, but because my libido would dry up if I thought I actually had to pay someone to sleep with me. It seems so depressing.

It is healthy for people to have sex with one another with the sex being the prize. It seems so antithetical to what sex should be to make it a trade thing. I know people do it, whether it's for a free meal, money, words or whatever, but I guess I am just never going to understand it. It damages the whole experience to think of it that way.