SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

hikingout, that's a really beautiful post. Thanks for sharing all that.

Ditto. I find hikingout's posts so insightful and am grateful she shares here.

LO, I am a WW, who had an exit affair, and now trying to get to R after "sobering up". What you are saying does struck a chord, because this is very much the same thing my BH has been raising lately.

A similar question comes up often - "How could you have gone from hating my guts and wanting to leave, to falling in love with me all over again?"

As what hikingout mentions, what I was feeling during the A was a manifestation of my own selfishness. AP was there right place, right time and BH was the collateral damage maximized.

I pursued the affair because we were both lowlifes and no real real effort was required.

I wanted to feel wanted.

I didn't want to work on my marriage and fix my issues and FOO.

I didn't understand and see my BH for who he really was, honourable and loves me dearly.

I focused and expounded on any tiny loose thread and blew it up into something that wasn't, just to justify my A.

So in essence, I was kinda having an A with myself and was blindly destroying everything in my path in a bid to hide.

The reason I can say now that I love my BH more than ever, or that he is better than AP in every way, is because it is true.

Once a WS sobers up, and sees the damage inflicted, the sadness/ despair/ fury in your BS' eyes, and the soul crushing realization that I was an absolutely POS for feeling the entitlement.. You begin to wipe all the dirt off your lens and start recognizing and seeing your BS for who they are.

Marvel at their steadfastness and strength in holding things together, when they didn't need to. See all the lies I told myself to create the worst.

Also, for R to happen, WS has to see BS as their one and only option, not because s/he has to, but because s/he wants to. Instead of seeing this as "she has no other options and so I'm plan B", perhaps you can reframe it as her choosing you, over the easier option of not putting in the effort at all.

Of course, after having their reality torn up, BS' do not naturally believe anything their WS says, so consistent effort has to be made to achieve that.

So yes, she/I forgo all that the marriage meant and the bond shared to have the affair, and we will live with that shame for eternity. We also see the injustice that we had to burn everything down to build something better, and we will always be working on healing the BS.

She had chosen herself for A, and now choose you for R.

Hope this helps!

Good morning all (at least morning for me)

RocketRaccoon

Sorry to break it to you, but it will never make 100% sense, unless you are/were a MH.

I'm not ever planning on going there - but OH the temptation for retribution! For me that is the one of the poisons this whole thing has left coursing through me. I SHALL RESIST!

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Butforthegrace

At the risk of generalization, broadly speaking, some affairs arise because the WW feels a sense that the marriage is over, or dying. The WW craves affirmation that she perceives she is not receiving from the marriage.

FWW certainly says this was the case. And there were reasons. She was actively (though perhaps unknowingly) killing it and I was in somewhat of a shutdown and passive state as I was tired of trying to please her.

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Timeforhelp

However, this is not the original marriage, it is a new relationship as we have both been changed irrevocably by his actions.

The situation now is that WH has to spend as much effort as possible to help create a new and improved marriage/relationship that you are both willing to live in.

I think I really needed to see what you stated here. The old relationship IS over (maybe I should say THANKS TO THE DIVINE!). We are definitely in a new one that has a better dynamic than before.

Unfortunately due to the human memory the creation of a new relationship is hindered by the triggering of the affair.

Yup - on the flip side, that is what is bugging me as stated. Things ARE better - so I'm looking to deal better with the little bit of poison that is still in me.

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OwningItNow

This is a very TALL list and most WS would struggle to meet perfection

It is - and I know that FWW struggles with many due to her many internal issues. But seeing the effort, even if it she falls short of what she is trying to do, makes me feel good.

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hikingout

some of what you describe sounds like you are stuck in a loop

OMG - yes

I am not saying accept what your WW has served up. I am saying, accept that's how you feel. Don't try and talk yourself out of it. Accept it as if you are choosing it

Hmmm - I will have to noodle over that one. I'm not disagreeing - just digesting to see how to incorporate into my psyche.

Sometimes as well the blockage can be placed there for our own protection. Your wife traumatized you

I can see how that is the case. It means that I still don't trust her to the level that she needs to help me get to.

See to me this was a big gear switch. Your initial post seemed more to me like the personal attack towards you. Switching it to the marriage makes it more universal to more than just infidelity.

As you point out, it is not just the infidelity. The infidelity was the culmination of marital and personal issue going back 10 years prior to affait. The part that really hurts is that she just never committed to me fully over the years (in my opinion). The net result is, I was never good enough (in her opinion) to begin with and she certified that by finally screwing around.

When you look at it on that level, the betrayal is a little less personal towards you. You would fully understand that she was broken in some way that had nothing to do with you. While you would still be devastated at the position it would be putting you in, you would not think it was because you were less attractive, or that you failed her in some intimate way.

Your words are helping me get my thoughts and emotions in order. She certainly had and has issues. And they were not about me. I think I just became the focus over her rage. Maybe in some sick way, she was using our BOND - she does have a disfunctional FOO. Not making excuses for her - just thinking.

-----------------

BTW - I am beyond caring whether she finds me attractive or ever did. I am content and confident in myself and don't really suffer self esteem issues. But I do want to feel loved in a committed relationship - that is a level of strength and spirituality I crave as a person. While my FWW is certainly working on her end, however imperfectly, I still have my own blockage to deal with

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 10:00 AM, June 18th (Thursday)]

FWW certainly says this was the case. And there were reasons. She was actively (though perhaps unknowingly) killing it and I was in somewhat of a shutdown and passive state as I was tired of trying to please her.

The paradox in this conversation is that both of you were in the same relationship, experiencing the same distance, but only one of you decided to cheat.

For her part, your WW needs to figure out why that was the choice she made, despite the fact that in your wedding she made a solemn promise, before God and your family, to forsake all others for better or for worse. Did she not mean the "worse" part? Maybe she had her fingers crossed when she said that?

For your part, now that you know your WW is the kind of person who will break her promise if the "worse" part reaches a certain threshold, do you still want to remain married to her? That has two facets: (a) can you trust her not to break her promise a second time, knowing the truth about her character, and (b) even if she fixes herself, do you want to remain married to somebody who made the choice to do that to you?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:56 AM, June 18th (Thursday)]

I have found it doesn't have much to do with attraction so much as it does with ego-feeding and selfishness. My STBXW has told me repeatedly that her cheating had nothing to do with me being unattractive, but rather that I was not the kind of person she wanted feeding her needs.

Proof? Have you ever seen the nanny Arnold Schwarzenegger cheated on Maria Shriver with? He banged her because he could, and she was available, and she padded his ego, not because she was pretty.

[This message edited by Westway at 10:05 AM, June 18th (Thursday)]

Instead of seeing this as "she has no other options and so I'm plan B", perhaps you can reframe it as her choosing you, over the easier option of not putting in the effort at all.

We've seen some version of that line of thinking from WW's a lot here. It reeks of arrogance, as if the BH is an object available for the WW to choose, as if life is simply a bowl of apples, she can choose the AP, and then the BH, or neither. For a WW, the world is her oyster, at least in her twisted perspective.

Life doesn't work like that. R works if the WW changes herself into somebody different than the person who decided to cheat, and that new person is attractive enough to the BH that the BH might wish to choose her.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:11 PM, June 18th (Thursday)]

And that is what is nagging me. I just have to get over it at some point after she puts in enough work. Otherwise, why even R, right?

In a nutshell? Yeah, kinda.

The affair happened. You can't change that and the past has been written. No going back. The option YOU have is to stay or divorce. If she's not remorseful and not working to make herself a safe partner, there's your answer.

If she is and you can forgive her, (Not forget, FORGIVE. Big difference) then eventually you will have to let it go.

I look at it this way. Say you did something horrible to her that hurt her to her core, but you are remorseful, sorry, regretful, blah, blah, blah,,,Would you like it if she threw it in your face for the rest of eternity? I personally think people shouldn't have to pay for their sins for the rest of their lives as long as they do the work and become a better person. Besides, how can that ever become a happy, healthy marriage if you continue to carry a grudge?

Infidelity sucks and is devastating, but if you can work through it, your marriage has a chance. If not and you can't forgive her and get past it, do yourself and your wife a favor and end the marriage. Nobody wants to live or stay in an unhappy situation.

R isn't for everyone. Sometimes infidelity is a deal breaker.

The affair happened. You can't change that and the past has been written. No going back.

Take infidelity out of it. Say she woke up one night in the middle of the night and smashed your kneecap with a hammer. For life, you will have a limp. Your knee will ache when it's cold and humid. With lots of healing it might get less bad, but it will never go away completely.

Is your WW the kind who will do everything she can to help you heal, but who will also be a shoulder to lean on when you're limping and in pain on those cold humid trigger days? Does she have the character to humbly assist you in that way, for the rest of your life? Will her presence comfort you, or will it remind you of the kneecap and make you feel angry and resentful?

Reading your post, I see a lot of things that I can agree with. The part where I think you fall into fatalism is your Plan B, etc line of thought.

Human beings aren't static. We learn and change and grow. If I decide to change my career or have children when I hadn't planned to or move elsewhere, it's keyholing to assume that it's because my first plan "failed".

We change. Just because something suited us before and doesn't now, it doesn't mean that the new thing is Plan B. It means the new thing is the NEW Plan A.

Our decisions have to suit us- we don't need to change to suit our decisions. That way lies unhappiness. Just because you've made a decision doesn't mean you should stick to it at all costs; in fact, I'd view that as being exceptionally unhealthy. We need to be able to evaluate changing circumstances and incorporate new information as we chart our paths through life. Absolutely everything should be able to be changed, if we learn new information and change our minds. That's personal growth and maturity.

You don't have to stay with someone that you don't want to stay with, for any reason whatsoever. You don't have to justify leaving a partner, whether they have cheated or not. But I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to assume that a WS staying automatically makes you Plan B.

We've seen some version of that line of thinking from WW's a lot here. It reeks of arrogance, as if the BH is an object available for the WW to choose, as if life is simply a bowl of apples, she can choose the AP, or the BH, or neither.

Apologies, I didn't mean it in that way. I'm not saying that WS is selecting the BS over the AP, but more of choosing the BS because she wants to work on herself and help the relationship.

It is definitely always dependent on the bs to proceed or otherwise.

Butforthegrace / Snowyjune

Instead of seeing this as "she has no other options and so I'm plan B", perhaps you can reframe it as her choosing you, over the easier option of not putting in the effort at all.

We've seen some version of that line of thinking from WW's a lot here. It reeks of arrogance, as if the BH is an object available for the WW to choose, as if life is simply a bowl of apples, she can choose the AP, or the BH, or neither.

It doesn't work like that. R works if the WW changes herself into somebody different than the person who decided to cheat, and that new person is attractive enough to the BH that the BH might wish to choose her.

BFTG - I don't mean to diminish what you're saying in any way. How to explain...my mother comes from a long line of Sufis and one lesson I remember her hammering into me when I was a child was "make excuses for people if you don't know better" or "assume the best until you know better" - I have often failed to live up to her advice, but in this case, I take Snowyjune's words to mean that my FWW "choosing me" means her realizing I have importance and value as a being and that FWW hopes to be a part of my journey and has remorse for not seeing it earlier.

However, I agree with what you say about FWW changing herself into somebody different - that really strikes a chord with me. and it PISSES me off that she wouldn't do that before.

Sorry - I don't want to be the cause of friction for folks that are still trying to recover from either side of the fence. I'm not trying to be passive or pleasing - I don't want to become a splinter for folks that are trying to help me.

As many have said on this forum, and the reason for me boiling over to begin with, words are powerful triggers... We're all an unexpected family - brothers and sisters - in good and difficult ways on this forum. Peace and Love to both of you.

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 12:47 PM, June 18th (Thursday)]

*Chuckle* - even as I posted my previous post, I thought - then why was I triggered to begin with if I "assume the best".

"Caught in a loop" indeed!

That's interesting! But I think sometimes it's easier to be forgiving of strangers or think the best of what someone you don't know is trying to say to you. When it's someone close and they have betrayed you it's different. I don't think you were being hypocritical for what ever that is worth.

hikingout

I think sometimes it's easier to be forgiving of strangers or think the best of what someone you don't know is trying to say to you. When it's someone close and they have betrayed you it's different.

Couldn't have said it better!

On a side note - it is truly amazing how pain (regardless of source) can lead to eye opening realizations - if I can be robust enough to use it for growth.

Hopefully I can get there. But my goodness...it is hard. Feeling up one hour, then down in the dumps the next when I remember something that has nothing to do with what I am doing in the moment.

It is frustrating to not yet be able to move forward from that prison.

Thank you for sharing.

Yes OUR BOND went out the door each time WH went to be with AP.

I have learnt a lot from your posts. 🙏🏼

Some random thoughts from soebody 9+ years out ...

My experience was that my W told herself and ow that she would not leave me. Of course, she left me every time she thought of ow, but ow was more in 2nd place than I was. The plan was somehow that W would spend half of her time with each of us. Don't ask ... it doesn't make sense to me, either. But I wasn't plan B and never had to deal with that.

Also, LO20, you write as if R is being forced on you. If that's so, you're forcing it on yourself. If you don't want R, you're free to D.

The SI rule of thimb is 2-5 years to recover from the trauma of being betrayed. R is a different matter. That can easily take longer.

WS can SAY "i didn't love AP"....

My W didn't say that - I did. I believe the relationship, like virtually all A relationships, was based on lies. I believe that love cannot come from lies. A corollary is that no WS loves the ap. None. It can't happen.

That's not the only possible POV. I can't prove my POV is valid for everyone. I can't disprove the idea that WSes really do love their aps. That's why I used 'believe.'

Note, however, that if A 'love' isn't real to a BS, that BS is probably more open to R. If it is real to a BS, that BS is probably less open to R. And that's fine - I wanted R, I chose R, it's working, I'm happy. Other BSes chose D, it worked, they're happy. I think the 'happy' part comes from making conscious, mindful decisions and not trying to control outcomes.

The BOND is many things to me - respect, love, trust, intimacy, mercy, ability to give constructive criticism, humility toward one's partner, life plans, support for each other's growth, growing a family, emotional support, working hard to provide a stable life, etc...

Hmmm ... for most of us, virtually all bonds simultaneously have healthy and unhealthy elements. Sometimes the healthy ones dwarf the unhealthy; sometimes vice versa; sometimes the elements are more balanced. But the unhealthy elements often have the seeds of their own destruction in them. We are not just our strengths. We are not just our weaknesses. We and our relationships are the sum of our strengths and weaknesses. And if Karma is a real thing - our strengths and weaknesses from past lives are also in the mix.

One of the things that drew my W and me together was the compatibility of our neuroses.

Plan A was always, and will always be, the WS.

I don't buy that. Yes, a WS chooses the ap over the BS every time the WS thinks about or talks with or texts or travels to meet or is with the ap, but As are typically pretty small percentages of a person's life. And people change unpredictably.

But my mind tells me that I and FWW can't retroactively go back and say "The BOND remained Plan A."

I agree. There's no way to make up for the time and energy that was taken away from the M by the WS. Whether you D or R, you have to write that time and energy off. If you R, if you go for an honest, authentic (but perhaps that's a repeat of 'honest') relationship, you probably do some sort of calculation in which the potential payoff outweighs the risk of false R and eventual D plus the concomitant unhappiness and general dislocation. I know I did.

However, some of what you describe sounds like you are stuck in a loop. THAT I have experience with. Lots of times we struggle to let go of something and it just digs in deeper. For those of us who can get into overthinking or obsessive thoughts, it can be hell.

I suggest that the vast majority of loops are Drama Triangles. In infidelity, the Persecutor and Rescuer are generally the WS. The Victim is the BS, though the BS often takes the Persecutor role from time to time. Co-dependednt BSes probably take on the Rescuer role, too, part of the time. The 'plan B' role is played by the Victim. (Drama triangle is a searchable term. Steve Karpman is the first person to identify it, but the last time I looked, his website has a lot for sale, and the free stuff, though very good, is hard to find. I used to recommend Karpman's site; now ... just search on 'drama triangle.')

In any case, the way out of DTs is to go to feelings - one or more of anger, grief, fear, shame. Feel your feelings, and you get out of the DT and heal.

do I just have to find the strength to let it go and just appreciate/accept what I have with FWW post-affair?

Yes. That's it exactly.

But here's the thing: you control your side of what you have with your 'FWW'. You can choose to want anything from complete NC starting now to wanting R. You can even choose to stay in DTs. I recommend starting with what you want and then following up with what you'll do - wanting and doing are way different from each other.

To heal, you need to take responsibility for yourself. You need to figure out or decide what you want. You need to decide how much of yourself you'll put into satisfying each of your wants. You need to put aside all the crap that runs around in your head (as it does in everybody's head).

DTs are very seductive. They're really easy to fall into. They're just as easy to get out of - just notice you're spinning, then ask yourself what you are feeling, then answer your question and let the feeling flow.

If you choose R from within a DT, it won't work.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:26 PM, Thursday, June 18th]

My WW claimed this every time we argued post DDay, every single time, but it always felt hollow when during the A she had compared me to the AP.. Had told him he was taller.. Sexier.. A 10/10 for her.. Those words hurt alot.. And even now 15months post DDay they still sting.. Plus honestly am i going to trust the words of a known liar

I know he was never a plan A as he could hardly take care of himself let alone a wife and 4 kids.. But still she chose him time and time again.. I am a better dad.. Husband.. Person then he ever will be.. I know that know but yet they still chose someone else.

To truly R you need to be able to live with this knowledge.. And the WS has to try and show you that YOU are now and always will be their ONLY choice.. Honestly if I didnt believe my WW could do this for me i am not sure i could even consider R.

They have to acknowledge to themselves that they made the choice to hurt you.. Its up to them by their actions to try and alleviate this ..

I'll tell you my experience. I'm also a bit farther out, 8yrs or so. My WW cheated with a married coworker. 6-7mo A EA/PA, they had sex 10 times, mostly super quickies in his truck, despite meeting each other 60-70 times outside of work. They also saw each other at work every day. They guy was older than me, shorter than me, less fit, balding, and no where near as intelligent. I honestly was dumbfounded that she cheated with that loser.

It's not uncommon though. WW's often are lacking self esteem, or they need their self esteem shored up by someone adoring and desiring them. So they "pick" the loser that's sniffing around knowing full well he will look up to them and almost worship them. The attraction comes from the AP's desire for them, it's not necessarily that he is some ripped lothario that has a 10 inch pecker. He is some scumbag that's willing to cheat on his wife, which makes my WW feel like she's something special, and pursue a married woman. He adores her and validates all of her resentments against you. The lower status guy will compliment her constantly and tell her how wonderful she is and that he's the only person that truly appreciates her, especially more than her H. Another thing, he knew she was married, he should assume she's having sex. Yet, he doesn't mind, what does that say about their true love? My WW's AP proposed marriage to her after she ended things. She said no and he later ratted her out to me just for spite. Oh, and AP picked up a DV charge during the A too. His wife questioned him and he beat her.

You really have it all wrong LostOpp, most male AP's aren't the super alpha trying to breed your woman. They're pathetic men scrambling and begging for scraps.

Your WW's A has nothing to do with you. You're not plan B. She should be doing everything in her power to make you think otherwise.

FWIW, I'm a MH. I cheated with single women though, I'm not a fan of sharing a woman.

Quick aside - I should probably post my story. Should I do that in this thread or create a new one?

FYI - I did not Just Find Out. I found out 11 years ago. No trickle truth - I blasted the covers off the whole thing and blew it up for all parties involved as soon as I got a hint.

As such, is JFO the correct forum? Or is it OK to just keep adding details here to this thread? I would love to keep input from both WSs and BSs unless that is not appropriate here...

This is the general forum so you can pretty much post what you want here.

A lot of people like you to keep most of your posts on the same thread for continuity. It lets them assess your progress and offer TIMELY advice to try and help you. If a newby to your thread wants to post he (or she) can read your entire thread to see what advice has already been given and where you are in your journey.

JMO YMMV