SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

He has no way to purchase or pay for a burner phone without me seeing. I handle all the finances.

Sorry, but he does. AP, friend, or family could be funding the burner phone. You cannot control everything.

Oh, don't be fooled about the burner phone. His AP could buy him one, it would not be the first time I heard that on this site.

If he will not admit to anything,until you find it,and confront,and he has no choice, he's not remorseful.

A burner phone can be purchased for less than $20 at the dollar store. Or his AP could buy him one, and easily get it to him.

I'm just saying..BS feel secure that the affair is over, because they have full access to the WS's phone. And it's a false sense of security.

What work is he doing on himself, to become a safe partner?

Dogcopter

I have zero feelings that he is still talking to her. The only thing I'm still questioning is whether or not it was more than just an emotional affair.

You would be well advised to ignore that feeling and remain vigilant. Same on the PA issue. Decent chance it was physical.

I don't know if anyone answered this:

He is remorseful just of course what he said, he wanted to keep it hidden and not be honest to avoid hurting me? Is that not a thing?

It is not a thing. Other than an extremely common lie and a rationalization.

If you steal money, and someone doesn't notice, have you done no wrong? Telling them you stole would just hurt them by alerting them to the harm! So that's why you don't tell them, not because you did something wrong and would hate to be caught for it...

The logic doesn't hold water.

What did he do with the text messages? Delete them? Did you try to recover them? Who is his carrier? If he sent texts in the clear (not over iMessage or something), they may be retrievable if he requests them. Maybe he keeps a backup on iCloud by default (if he has no experience in hiding illicit relationships and an iPhone, that's the default behavior).

Has he only ever admitted to what you did get hard evidence of? If so, you are almost certainly being trickle truthed, like your gut says.

Has he only ever admitted to what you did get hard evidence of? If so, you are almost certainly being trickle truthed, like your gut says.

Yes, look at it statistically. It is highly unlikely he was unsuccessful in hiding anything at all. If he didn't admit to something you don't have proof of, it is almost certain he is lying to you about it.

IMHO the key to getting the truth is to make not having the truth a more expensive option.

Have you told your husband that discovering they had sex would end the marriage? If so then he has every reason to lie.

What you can do is explain how the uncertainty is causing you more damage than whatever truth there might be. That you aren’t capable of reconciling if you think there is any stone uncovered. No – you can’t trust him because trust went the minute he started being with her.

Yes – he can rebuild trust. He can do that by showing you his vulnerability and willingness to trust you by telling the truth. A truth you will then confirm in the next 20 days with a poly.

Make it clear that discovering they had sex won’t really be the killer for your marriage. What will kill the marriage is if he tells you they never held hands or made out or had sex… and any of that is then refuted by a poly. THAT will confirm he doesn’t trust you and you know that without trust there is no marriage.

Yes – he can rebuild trust. He can do that by showing you his vulnerability and willingness to trust you by telling the truth.

Bigger touched on something that is profoundly important regarding truth and disclosure.

I believe there's nothing more intimate than making yourself vulnerable to someone by trusting them with a sentinel event truth, a very personal truth, or a damning truth, and then especially so when you place the consequences of that truth in their hands. It's a selfless act that serves well to counter the very selfish act of infidelity and, making yourself vulnerable and exposing your true self is extremely intimate and bonding.

He deleted the messages, all I can find is that they can only be gotten from a court order. He doesn't have an iPhone, he has an old android. I have said if it was physical that I may not be able to recover and move on in our marriage. I like they way you put it Bigger.

He deleted the messages

Typical cheater move.

He now lives s making it even more difficult to rebuild trust in the marriage.

He certainly has a lot to hide if he decided that was a good idea. Remember it’s not the affair that kills the marriage but the behavior after the affair is discovered that destroys the marriage and betrayed.

Just a thought maybe she bought a burner phone for him? There is always a way around just about anything.

Couple of thoughts...

Now I 100% believe that they did.

A 100% belief = knowing, in terms of your actions. So I take his having sex with her is not a show-stopper? That it’s the lying?

Because if the sex is a show-stopper and you are 100% sure, then you’re done with this phase.

Are you 100% sure you’re 100% sure?

Fact is, you just don’t know. And worse than that, you will never know with 100% surety, short of finding the smoking gun tape, message, etc.

So how to trust his answer. Do you know anything right now that he doesn’t know you know? If he answers those questions truthfully, then that’s a good sign. If not, then not so much.

Another approach is to just go with your gut. Tell him you know he had sex with her, that he is lying about it, and since you know it, you can just stop asking questions. You are married to a liar, and always will be, as long as you are married to him. Work from that base. Treat him as such. If he wants to become a non-liar, the ball is in his court.

As Bigger notes, the key is to make being truthful his winning hand. Right now it isn’t.

Or maybe he is being honest. You just don’t know and you never will. His actions made sure of it.

Can you live with that?

Sending strength!

Bonetired, I'm not concerned he is still talking to at all. And yes houseofplane I don't know, and he may be telling the truth and it kills me that I don't know but I have a feeling it was physical. My plan is to stay and work on this but it's hard when I don't feel like I have all the truth.

My plan is to stay and work on this but it's hard when I don't feel like I have all the truth.

Hard isn’t the right word. It’s just endlessly toxic. Like having a splinter stuck in your foot forever that is constantly getting infected and oozing.

So do you have some ideas for new actions to make him being honest and convincing you he’s honest his winning hand?

Or ideas for you to gain an acceptance that you’ll never know?

Sending strength!

I plan to have one more conversation about it this weekend. And go from there. I will be telling him that counseling is non-negotiable. Because he has voiced he doesn't want to do it. He claims he has enough people in his life telling him what to do and think that he doesn't need some stranger doing it as well.

I plan to have one more conversation about it this weekend.

And then what? Have a plan because he is going to test your resolve.

this is why i messaged and stayed in contact with OW. If it were not for her, it would NOT have happened... but i also would not know it all. he was still lying thru his smile and straight faced no glitches, even when we asked, for months.

if you can contact the other person, do so. otherwise this person wont tell you. and your instincts know better than what he is saying. if you know he's lying, and wont come clean, you can never trust that person.

I don’t understand why most cheaters refuse counseling.

What are they afraid of??

What are they afraid of??

I've asked my H this. "What were you so afraid of? Why did you resist?"

He says, "I was afraid of the unknown, afraid of looking at myself."

We make assumptions that all people think like us. I am non-avoidant, some might say an overthinker. I love to analyze things and take them apart, even unpleasant things. I constantly want to know, to understand. My H thinks this makes me occasionally "no fun." I'm fun! But I do not find avoidance fun. He does.

He sees avoidance as 'easing your mind, escaping your worries.' What's wrong with that?

I see it as 'avoiding what's on your mind, ignoring what has you worried.' How is that helpful?

I think overthinkers often partner with avoidants. The overthinkers post here, because guess what the avoidants do (did)?!!! Ugh.

In short, avoidants have survived their entire lives by NOT looking at problems and problematic feelings like shame and self-loathing. (Because--duh--it's not fun.) But not looking invites compartmentalizing and learning to lie to one's self. And others.

I fought with my girlfriend = I go watch tv.

My day was problematic = I go home and drink.

My M is problematic = I instead focus on my calories and develop anorexia.

My FOO makes me hate myself = I turn to ego kibbles in all forms.

NONE of these behaviors solve the problem, but avoidants think it does. Solving = getting away from bad feelings.

Then dday.

Now we say, "Hey, avoidant cheater! Go to IC and face it!" And we wonder why they resist????!!!!! This is their main problem, AVOIDING THEIR PROBLEMS. That's why I say, "No IC, no R." If their IC sucks or they manipulate the IC, that's an issue for another day. But if they won't even face their fears in IC, then avoidance will take them down the dark path again someday.

No. More. Avoiding.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:59 AM, May 31st (Monday)]