SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Catch.....wow, reading these pages left me feeling exhausted. So much emotion. Yes, you were an asshole BUT you recognized it and are trying to make it right....good for you!

"She found out I told some coworkers/employees about the affairs. So she was really mad and embarrassed about that last week." She hasn't owned what she did or perhaps she is simply justifying what she did because of the way you were. Its about respect. Yes, she disrespected you but you can take the high road (and it appears you have) and respect her. But she needs to own the shit storm she put the marriage in just like you are owning what you did. What do you have to lose? If you treat her with respect and the marriage gets better - GREAT! If, on the other hand, it is divorceville, then you have learned a very valuable lesson. What have you got to lose by treating her with kindness and respect? Look at it as a kind of Pascal's wager if you will.

Stayedforthekids - dude, I get your anger. Reading your posts struck a still raw nerve. My fiancé cheated on me with about ten different guys in the first six years we were together. Her worst years were 2007 (3), 2008 (3), 2009 (2) one in 2010 and one in 2011. All were one or two night stands. CL guys and such. All without condoms and certainly during the time we were still having sex! We broke up (I still didn't know) and she actually dated without including sex in the equation. Fast forward a couple of years....she goes out with a guy on a Monday. Has him over to her house on a Wednesday, gets drunk, has sex, wakes up in the middle of the night realizing she is in the HOV lane back to her old lifestyle (she had over thirty lovers in 28 years of marriage and didn't start until almost the seventh wedding anniversary) and sends me an email. We get back together and for two years we both were exactly what each other needed....Then a few insignificant lies and some alcohol and over the course of four days she tells me everything. Fuck, I was so pissed that I ended up in the ER with chest pains (as an old PA it was a bit scary). Had some cardiac damage. As a side note we live about 600 miles apart......Insisted she get into counseling and she did hypnotherapy. I did some serious thinking. We visited each other often. Talked sooooooo much. She is still dealing with some of my residual anger...BUT I love her and I want to be with her. She knows this will take time. Three times I have tried to move in with her and three times I just couldn't pull the trigger. So many dark thoughts of guys....well.....you can imagine. But, I channel my anger in healthy ways. She knows she is loved and respected. I got some help for my anger issues as it was having a very negative effect on my health and certainly a negative effect on her. If I had a dollar for every time she said she was so sorry, I'd be wealthy. All the best to you. Once I let the anger go my heart started to feel happier and my anger and resentment dissipated. I still have dark moments but I can handle those.

OK, so HUGE thanks to everyone. This conversation was like practice for TODAY!

My wife triggered. We separated some financial duties and some emails came dealing with that. So she was mad. And it means more coworkers may know about the A's. She feels that we haven't been a partnership throughout our marriage. That if I saw her as an equal then I wouldn't have done that. I would have protected her. I said, you want to talk about being protected and being safe?

So she starts to vent. And she was pissed about the 17 years. Thank God for SI. I have read these posts well, but plan to go back and study them. I was able to echo the feelings shared by the women on this thread. I said I don't fully understand YET, just like I didn't feel that she fully understood the impact on me "yet". But I think she truely felt heard and I wasn't caught off guard and so try to defend anything. For sure some things weren't all my fault but it wasn't the time.

She is definately feeling LARGE feelings about the affairs. She did mention that she was concerned I couldn't change. That pissed me off and I did put a bit of a dig. I reminded her that last year, I asked her, "do you feel loved?", she said "yes". I said, "is there anything more I could do to make you feel more loved?". She said, "No". To which she started sobbing, "I know, and then I went and fucked it up".

I just let her vent. I mentioned how she must have felt with the divorce threats, the name calling. Mentioned sitting in the crater staring at each other after the bomb has gone off. We touched all the bases. I didn't mention it here, but I told her that I also told my family about the abuse/ODS this weekend. We had a family event and I know my wife had felt like everything was one sided. Basically, it was like telling SI. Some thought it made sense and some didn't. I think that was appreciated by my wife and she felt understood.

I did mention the arbitrary setting of the hand holding boundary. That she could set and defend the next boundary. It made her think, so we'll see.

I still have more to do to understand, but I appreciate the help on getting a solid start.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 4:47 PM, May 24th (Wednesday)]

This sounds like a good start. When both people are walking wounded these conversations are tough.

My therapist used to say that the communication between my husband and I reminded her of two very wounded inner children that each want to be heard and loved but neither could be. It was that visual image that stopped me in my tracks and made me start listening to my husband when would have these talks, I realized I was listening to his hurt. It allowed me to soften towards him and lower my defenses.

Reconciliation is not for the weak of heart.

Thanks tired girl.

Your perspective was very helpful.

You are very welcome.

She feels that we haven't been a partnership throughout our marriage. That if I saw her as an equal then I wouldn't have done that. I would have protected her. I said, you want to talk about being protected and being safe?

I think this is where your really productive conversations are going to start, over and over again, while you both decide whether the marriage is going to heal and change or end.

I think the on demand sex is a symptom of the way you see her, and there are probably a hundred other examples in your marriage that you can trace back to not seeing her as an equal. If you can never see her as an equal partner (or whatever vision of the partnership works for you both) then things like ODS will come up over and over again in a lot of different disguises.

But her affair is also a reflection of something happening deeper inside her and that HAS to be addressed, separately from the other marital issues, and solely within her.

It's tough when you get to the stage of talking about your marriage and each party has something to work on - it CAN feel like you're equating your failings with the affair when in fact the affair is about HER failings and she will need to look squarely at that, even if in another marital context she's been the victim of your issues. They can't be seen as a cause and effect issue, or it becomes rug sweeping and will crop up again over and over and over.

By the way, in my first marriage my husband was very emotionally immature and would cajole, manipulate and argue his way into sex every time I didn't want it, sometimes multiple times a day. We used to have happy, crazy, consensual sex 5 or 6 times a week, but those one or two days I wasn't up for it became battle grounds. I didn't have the energy to work full time, grad school part time and also spend 2 hours arguing with my husband's fragile ego. It went from being dehumanizing to me (he was using my body to masturbate) to being emasculating to xH (I essentially treated that sex like giving a toddler a lollipop to keep quiet during a movie).

We went to marriage counseling and I brought this up. Our MC told me that I should write out my internal thought chain on a day that xH wanted sex and I didn't want it but ended up giving in. So I did. It was massively dehumanizing to him in the end, not to me. I would essentially tally the time and energy it would take to have a two hour argument with his insecure and entitled ego versus the time it would take to lube up (as nothing is less sexy than a man demanding sex) and let him do his thing. I'd choose door #2, come to a good stopping point in my work, hit the bathroom, use the lube, initiate sex pre-emptively, let him do his thing, get up, clean up and then finish my work.

But that was all a symptom of how little respect I had for him, and how little respect he had for me at that point in our marriage. We used to respect each other, and the sex thing was part of what eroded any respect I had for him as a man, but it was also a self-perpetuating loop that gained energy and fed off itself. The more he demanded compliance, the less of a man I saw him as, the less I felt like a partner, the less I acted like one. At the same time he had his own cycle of loss of respect for me that built up probably with some overlap. The less he respected me, the more he demanded compliance, because compliance was a cheap substitute for the genuine respect he wanted from me.

He ultimately cheated and we divorced, and now in my second and hopefully forever marriage we have more sex than I did in my first, and with all the trust we have between us it's totally okay if one of us is in the mood and the other one isn't and we try to entice the reluctant one into actual interest and end up with one of us way more gung-ho than the other. The symptom of 'lack of respect' is not present, so the same act doesn't carry the poison that it did in my first marriage.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you guys work on your issues, there's going to be a lot of symptom versus disease work. What is the actual problem, and how does that problem manifest itself in the marriage in a thousand different unrelated scenarios. If you can target the real root of the problem and it's fixable, then the marriage has a chance. And it sounds like you're doing a lot of good work on that. I hope your WW is willing to do the same amount of work on herself.

If the WS is remorseful and begging to keep the M, then all of the work starts there. After that happens for a while, some focus may need to be put back on the M and its dynamic, as well.

But if the WS seems to be saying, "I want out but I might stay and do the work if you look at your part in this unhappy M," you have a choice to make. You can say, "No! We heal me first! You need to win me back!" But if there is enough resentment, the WS may simply walk. (This was me and I found a mediator and started the process.) But if you think the M may be worth fighting for, then you have to treat the issue like a madhatter situation: BOTH people need to work and own stuff at the same time. (This is what my H realized, and we stopped the D process to begin the work.)

Neither of you trust each other right now.

Both of you need to address your personal marital injustices so that both of you begin to feel safe in the M.

In addition to that ^ I think with ODS, the willingness to comply to keep the M eventually will fade the more the issue is forced (no pun intended).

Plus, I've never understood why the partner demanding the sex WANTS sex in the first place with an unwilling or only compliant partner. How is that a turn-on?? Unless you're the type who's only into the power and control aspect, in which case, um....

Circe's post is outstanding.

That is a post that you need to really read and understand Catch.

The respect part that she talks about is dead on.

Thanks Circe, I feel your perpective is also a very good reflection of our marriage.

If you can never see her as an equal partner (or whatever vision of the partnership works for you both) then things like ODS will come up over and over again in a lot of different disguises.

Some are FOO issues that I need to deal with. For example, my sister is 30 and marrying a guy my parents don't like. My Mom just won't give up trying to stop her. My Dad finally has. And then my sister is "praying" for God to manipulate my mom's feelings on the matter. So in effect trying to control God to control the situation. I have some work there for sure. A sibling death. I think it still comes down to fear based control. But I am open to suggestions and experiences. The New Co-Dependancy only has one chapter on control. Maybe that's all you need. Be constantly aware that you are controlling? Be honest and truthful with myself? No More Mr. Nice Guy address controlling behaviour in it's way as well. Also on the flip side, my wife doesn't budget. She would complain about money but be feeding our kids friends dinner for months. 3 extra mouths to feed everyday. I would mention the cost and that I get that she likes to be the house where all the friends feel at home, but it would be nice to her to have some appreciation. Not complain that there isn't enough money. She would go and buy clothes, etc... She deals with the family side of finances. We don't have a budget, I've asked for 2 years. I don't feel a partnership in that aspect. We spent a $1000 to enroll in a course that she eventually never took. We buy stuff like a car, house and have payments, but then can't go out to dinner and it is my fault. I was working a lot rather than trying to change our spending. She said to me, did you know we where spending $1300/mos on counselling since February? I said, "Yes, I did" (In my mind it was an investment). To me that isn't a team play either.

initiate sex pre-emptively,...But that was all a symptom of how little respect I had for him, and how little respect he had for me at that point in our marriage.

Yup, I think this is where it went. I am so sad that I took it there on my side of things. And my apathy to the emotional connection. My days are very sad.

The more he demanded compliance, the less of a man I saw him as, the less I felt like a partner, the less I acted like one. At the same time he had his own cycle of loss of respect for me that built up probably with some overlap. The less he respected me, the more he demanded compliance, because compliance was a cheap substitute for the genuine respect he wanted from me.

Awesome insight. I am really trying to be and am much more mindful of the control and the respect. Not perfect, but I think about my thinking.

If you can target the real root of the problem and it's fixable, then the marriage has a chance. And it sounds like you're doing a lot of good work on that. I hope your WW is willing to do the same amount of work on herself.

I am focusing on me. I can't control my wife to avoid any future affairs. Maybe worded better as I have no control over whether she chooses to have another affair. I surrender to knowing my wife was willing to cheat. Hopefully she is honestly doing the work. I surrender my marriage in hope of something better.

- I want to know more about avoiding controlling behaviour, if there is more.

- I want to know more about viewing my wife more as a partner/equal and understand if that is part of control as well or separate.

- I think name calling and divorce are also related to gaining control/the upper hand.

- how can I take steps to "give" my wife equal "control"? Or is it enough to not control? The difference between reponsible problem solving versus control...

Circe's post is outstanding.

That is a post that you need to really read and understand Catch.

tired girl,

The respect part that she talks about is dead on.

It is really is. I'm trying to process it all. I'm trying to figure out how to change. Can it be done with steps/methods, is it going to take full understanding to evoke the heart change? All thoughts and comments are welcome.

Thanks theaterguy,

Yes, you were an asshole

Still am, but trying to change

ThanksOwningItNow,

But if you think the M may be worth fighting for, then you have to treat the issue like a madhatter situation: BOTH people need to work and own stuff at the same time.

I really need to work at making sure we are equals. Give her the partnership she craves.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 4:13 PM, May 25th (Thursday)]

Maybe the place to start is looking at why you feel the need to control this situation?

What is going on with You there? You ask why and when you get that answer, you ask why again, and you keep peeling that onion back until you are at the core of what is going on with you.

Definitely sensing a parent-child dynamic, and you are living the damage of a parent-child marriage right now.

You like to be in charge, a responsible type.

She likes to have fun and live life.

You admired her spirit.

She admired your responsibility.

But that dance was a FOO dance. (You wanted to be the responsible one, but you don't like doing everything! And she wanted someone to take care of things, but she does not want to be controlled.) You believe in being capable and careful. But she believes in living life to the fullest! So you do more, then she does less. You stop respecting her because she is "a child," and she starts resenting you because you are "a parent." Bam! Marriage break down.

You need to step back. Do less. Control less. Spend more time chilling and having fun. Work on calming down and focusing on you.

She needs to step up. Do more. Doing more will make her feel capable and appreciated.

But it is not an easy dynamic to fix. The FOO will make stepping out of your roles uncomfortable. (Ask me how I know!!!! Ha!!! Still working on it!)

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:58 PM, May 25th (Thursday)]

Maybe the place to start is looking at why you feel the need to control this situation?

Thanks tired girl. The dreaded why.... How many times have I asked that question and gotten "I don't know". And now I sitting here thinking, I have a handful of ideas but I really don't know.

I'm going to think and start peeling...

Some is learned. I can see our one DS starting to behave similarly to me which was an "oh no" moment watching him tell his brother what to do. Their personalities are like my wife's and mine. One DS is like my wife and the other DS is like me. The one like me is "helping" the other but with boundary jumping.

Fear of rejection/abandonment. This always seems to stand out to me.

OwningItNow,

Spend more time chilling and having fun. Work on calming down and focusing on you.

I've been brain storming and taking lots of time for myself. Spending more on myself. Just trying to enjoy the moment I'm in. Thanks for your thoughts.

Darkness Falls,

Plus, I've never understood why the partner demanding the sex WANTS sex in the first place with an unwilling or only compliant partner. How is that a turn-on??

It wasn't a dominance thing for me. I felt close. I would want to snuggle up afterward and could never figure out why she wouldn't want to. I was not trying to belittle my wife directly even though indirectly I did.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 5:01 PM, May 25th (Thursday)]

Catch. thank you for bringing this topic up.

I have learned much more than I have in the past.

I can somewhat relate to you relationship dynamics, except for the name calling.

I wish you the best and things have started to turn around (I hope) for me, but only because I have reached the point where I know I will be ok if I divorce. I realized I have done some fucked up things, but I also know that I am good person and for the most part have been a good partner.

I wished you the best in this journey. You will better for doing the work.

Thanks Icanseethelight,

Catch. thank you for bringing this topic up.

I have learned much more than I have in the past.

I have to pass that along to the women who contributed to this. The amount of perspective and wisdom has been incredible. Thank you all.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 5:42 PM, May 25th (Thursday)]

Backing up the whole stress thing. My wife being the same. Sure, she will have sex when I want it-but I can tell if she isn't in the mood. Then, I don't want it. She isn't a blowup doll for Gods sake. Honestly, I would find it a turn off if she wasn't enjoying it as much as I did. So, why would you want that from her? Forcing and expecting her? Much of my pleasure is seeing her pleasure. If she isn't in the mood due to stress. Then it is your job as her man and husband to relieve the stress in the way she wants it relieved and I don't mean sex. Feed the kids. Do the dishes. Give the kids their baths. Put them to bed. Do what she wants on an intimate level. My wife enjoys massages and touch more than sex itself. So go there and stop if that is what your wife enjoys. BIG message!!!!! Stop thinking about yourself and your wants. Think about what she wants and enjoys that may be your sexual equivalent. BIG message!!!! Communicate. Talk to her about what she wants.

Zugzwang, your timing is perfect.

I am tired and my mind pity party was starting.

I was good for the last 2 years. White knuckling a bit on the sex on some days but pretty good overall. I clean up after dinner. I take kids to sports and help out. I'm trying to "show up" and be emotionally present. Was trying to get date nights, walks, to the point of "too much". There was nothing more I could do. We took a trip to Vegas, got her a new car,... But... I didn't know it was false R either. It is that I "just got her material things and didn't do the rest". But she doesn't remember really wanting the material things. I'm just tired today...

I'm trying to give the 17 years more weight, but I've been triggered a couple of times today and it has kicked my ass. I appreciate the refocus!

Evening edit:

Our DD was discussing vacation plans. I was mad because our family time had been screwed up.

I text my wife to ask if we were going to church together as a family still and if I was supposed to be taking the kids by myself considering it was family time I booked off every year.

She said yes to church but not to the family vacation which is at a condo out of town. So I asked if we did day trips would she go? She texted me to say take the kids, they will have fun.

So #1 if this is going to impact the kids I'm pissed. #2 her home alone is a trigger. So I wanted to talk tonight because I don't feel her idea of separation for healing and mine are aligning very well.

So she says she doesn't want to talk tonight. So I'm pissed but know I need to settle down because it doesn't have to be tonight; that is trying to control things. So I text back "OK".

Am at a sport practice for our DS and I'm thinking, "hey, I didn't jump any boundaries and just treated her desire as equal".

I am just so pissed off right now to be honest. Feel free to 2x4 me.. My female physician told me this morning, you are still young, handsome and smart. Go get laid and forget about her. I've been trying to shove that one into a compartment all day today... Thank God I have a different sleeping pill tonight.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 10:31 PM, May 25th (Thursday)]

Are you really pissed or are you scared? Because if I was in your shoes I would be pissed and angry that I was scared because she was alone and wanted to be alone.

As a father of an 8 year old little girl. One of the best ways of getting perspective when I want to be selfish is thinking about my wife and my little girl. When she was a baby and toddler it was easy to compartmentalize and be irresponsible. Not much had formed in her personality and a bond. Now, of course she is Daddy's Princess. I question what I do as ; "Would I want to beat the shit out of man that treated my little girl that way?" My wife is her father's little girl and well- It is just easier I guess when you have the experience of being a father to a girl to get that perspective and empathy on how I may be treating my wife.

You work on you. You can't force her to be there (in marriage or as a better person). Just treat her with respect. The kids will cope. They need to anyways. You can't shelter them from life. This stuff may be on their own doorstep one day in their own marriages. The best you can do is show them the right way to problem solve and deal with it. If they don't have outside support from you and your wife, set it up.

To add: do you find yourself being a problem solver. Kind of a KISA when it comes to your wife being stressed or having problems. And if she does to you take it personally and internalize it like it is your job to make it better or you feel you fail as a husband if you don't? Then if you can't you get angry and depressed that you couldn't. You either get thrilled if you do or pissed if you don't. Taking anything really personal?

Based on the stories here, a WW asking for separation is in most cases really about seeing the affair partner without intervention or guilt. You seem to be doing all the work. Why is the cheating spouse not working as hard? What is her motivation?