SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Beau: I would venture to say that the hardliners are generally those of us who were cheated on and divorced. Not every BS is a hardliner, but I suspect that none or very few of the reconciled BS fall in that category. I don't see many, if any, posters who automatically push for divorce every time a BS asks for advice, unlike other forums.

[This message edited by src9043 at 2:05 AM, Friday, April 1st]

Don't worry I won't be reconciling. I don't quite have the palate for shit sandwiches

Apparently, to some dim bulbs, any poster who has the audacity to advise that you take a moment to reflect before finalizing a life changing decision for you and your children, and your entire family is the equivalent to bludgeoning you with demands that you pursue R. Of course there are dim bulbs on an open forum like this who think this type of advice is awful and they choose to mischaracterize what is actually said in those posts.

The real dim bulbs are the people that have read this thread and cannot understand that the mere mention of "R" causes Nothere to dismiss everything you say as trying to feed him a shit sandwich.

He's not right about that but he's not wrong to disregard what you're saying because you're clearly not hearing him. He has been estranged from his mother for over 15 years because of her infidelity. He has never considered anything but D. His views about cheaters are clear and extreme. He has said that he doesn't want to be hounded about R. But somehow you think the bright thing to say to him six months in is, "Gee, I know you say want D, but have you really considered R?"

Just because he showed a little empathy for his WW. Good job, you'll drive him off this site yet.

There is a lot of advice here that can help him. It would help him to learn how to work through what he's feeling, especially his anger. It would help him to understand the empathy he's feeling for his WW. It would help him to develop a more nuanced understanding of the causes of infidelity. It would help him to understand the traumatic nature of what he's been through. It would help him to have a full understanding of what happened and gain some perspective on it. But none of that is tied to "R".

We should look for opportunities to help with all that while supporting him in the choice that he has already made. It's only through understanding all that that I could conceive of him ever regretting D. And if he ever does, it can be undone at any time.

But you bright bulbs keep trying to feed OP a "shit sandwich" and see how that goes.

I don't know why a guide is allowed to call people stupid. Very strange...

Thank you seeking. I still care for her deeply, it is empathy. It's sad I can see it in her eyes and how she conducts herself. Her posture, her tone, everything. She threw it away for nothing. Save my children, it's all gone and I regret it all.

[This message edited by Nothere759 at 8:46 AM, Friday, April 1st]

Fareast, I

Know you said you were "posting as a member." That doesn't mean you aren't still a staff member. As a staff member, to call anyone here a "dim bulb," is very disappointing. We all..even the supposed dim bulbs you are referring to, understand you are calling them stupid. Which IMO( a mere member), seems a lot like bullying.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:02 PM, Friday, April 1st]

** POsting as a member **

Staff members are people, too. In 'posting as a member', my take is that the staff member is making it clear that they are speaking for themselves and not for the rest of the staff. We all have our trigger points.

Staff members - which not BTW include people who have D'ed and even people in limbo from time to time - are experienced in recovering from infidelity, and we know the guidelines, but we are human beings first and foremost.

*****

I, too, do not understand how the advice to consider both D & R can be considered to be pro-R, except from a fairly narrow POV.

To think that 'D is right in all cases' but that 'consider all options' is pro-R does not make logical sense. There is no one-size-fits-all answer to infidelity.

For SI to be effective, members need to read what a poster writes and respond to that.

*****

As I read some of Nothere's posts, He has indicated that he might have doubts about D, and some members have responded to that. I've been involved in this thread from the beginning and think he's made his decision, and it IS his decision.

But some of his words DO imply doubt, and I think we all need to accept that doubt will elicit advice to think again before acting. That isn't advice to R. It's just advice to look inside and know what you want before acting, at least as I read the words.

I don't know why a guide is allowed to call people stupid. Very strange...

In another thread that sparked a big debate about honesty relating to 'spying' on a spouse you think might be cheating, an SI guide used the pejorative misandrist term "mansplaining", and implied that any advice given by divorced men was bound to lead to divorce, which writes off the life experiences of a large proportion of this site's membership at a stroke. Even though guideline 8 of this forum states...

GENERAL STATEMENTS: Please refrain from making statements that generalize gender, WS/OP/BS, race, religion or political alignment. Also do not presume to speak on behalf of other people.

...not a word was said by a moderator or anyone else representing SI when a guide blatantly broke the forum's own guidelines.

It is becoming very apparent that there is an in-house elite in SI who feel they have the right to be rude, sexist, condescending, dismiss those they see as beneath them as mansplaining dim bulbs, write off the life experiences of divorced men as not worthy of consideration, because they see themselves as standing above the rest of the mere mortals who come to this forum and contribute their time, life experiences, and opinions about the reality of what they went through. Which is a very counter-productive mind-set for any public forum that nominally encourages anyone to contribute their thoughts and experiences, and then insults vast swathes of them based on their gender or sweeping presumptions about their low intelligence.

If the people who run SI really have such a poor opinion of so many people who post here, perhaps they are in the wrong place, because they clearly struggle to deal with life in a public forum and opinions that differ to their own. As things stand, the forum does not bar men outright, nor insist on an IQ test before a person can post, and yet when people do, their gender or their intelligence may be insulted or maligned by a small group of people who feel they have greater wisdom or understanding, and who manifest that superiority by belittling others.

That should not be acceptable in a public forum, as frustrating as it may be to have to deal with the public. By all means put counter-arguments, backed up where possible by facts, statistics, or life experiences, but please do not insult people based on presumptions about their gender or their intelligence. That trend is increasing in SI, and that kind of thing should be beneath everyone in this forum.

An awful lot of people come to this forum after suffering abuse, and the last thing any vulnerable, damaged person who may be struggling with issues of self worth needs is to be told they are stupid, or be exposed to gender-based prejudice, in what purports to be a support forum. I very much doubt any divorced man needs any more scorn from a woman, let alone a representative of SI, because they have probably had quite enough of it already via whatever traumatic experience gave them cause to look for and join this forum.

I urge everyone, but particularly the representatives of SI, to think very, very carefully before they say anything belittling or demeaning about people here, because the chances are those people may be feeling pretty down on themselves and rejected to begin with.

[This message edited by M1965 at 9:17 PM, Friday, April 1st]

Nothere-
Think of this like you are firing someone. Divorce is firing your wife from the job of wife. Don't try to exact further revenge or make her explain herself. If you have already decided she is going to be fired, be upfront about it and try to move on professionally. You will see her again in the future, you just know she won't ever be your wife again.
Don't ask the employee why they screwed up. Just tell them you had standards you both agreed on and they weren't met. That you expect both of you to be able to interact in the future, just it won't be as a couple.
I hope that helps. It helped my friend when he was getting divorced. He wanted explanations and revenge, but now that he is a year out, he is glad we talked him back from all that. He even feels stupid about how many hoops he did make his ex-wife jump through. Now he is dating a new girl he seems in love with, but he says he is never getting married again. He is happy and she realizes she let a great guy get away. They did hook up a few times after the divorce because they both kept hitting low spots during covid and neither had great covid dating experiences. They said it was the best sex they ever had, because they knew they weren't getting back together so they just had fun. I probably shouldn't ever remind him of that part. Just something to think about. They are kind of friends now and she gets he could never get over her cheating either. They even vet people the other person dates or brings around the kids. They say it is super weird at first, but a good measure if someone will stick around or run once they hit a little normal life drama.

M1965

Wow. Rules for thee but not for me! I wonder why they're so miserable...

[This message edited by Nothere759 at 7:48 PM, Friday, April 1st]

T/J

...not a word was said by a moderator or anyone else representing SI when a guide blatantly broke the forum's own guidelines.

Months ago, when I was fairly new to this forum I saw the following from the same contributor to a BW, before that person was a Guide:

"Good for you! I couldn't be more proud of you if you kicked him in the groin!"

The response was crickets. Imagine if a male poster said to another BH, "Good for you! I couldn't be prouder of you it you had broke her jaw with a right hook!" Yeah, you can imagine...

I pointed out on another thread that folks stop cross posting from the WS to JFO as it violates the rules and privacy. I was called out immediately by another to not be the SI police. Go figure.

End T/J

Before this becomes a threadjack, let me just say that we are discussing this.

I also want to point out that while you are publicly complaining about staff violating guidelines, you are also violating the guidelines.

STAFF ACTIONS: If you have a question regarding a staff action bring it to our attention by using the Private Message feature. Do not question staff actions on the public forums.

Every staff member here has been effected by infidelity. We are human with feelings and triggers of our own. Being openly triggered is typically an exception, not the rule.

If you feel that a staff action of any sort needs to be discussed, please follow the guidelines and pm a moderator or admin.

Doinbettr - great post!

So where's the apology

I also want to point out that while you are publicly complaining about staff violating guidelines, you are also violating the guidelines.

If you feel that a staff action of any sort needs to be discussed, please follow the guidelines and pm a moderator or admin.

Many thanks for pointing this out. I thought that as the statements that broke forum guidelines I was taking issue with had been made in the public forum, it would be acceptable to challenge/rebutt them in the same forum. I stand corrected; I have PM'd a member of staff to lodge a complaint.

Still no apology

I'm writing only for myself. I'm not writing on behalf of any other staff members in this post.

*****

There have been a few attacks on SI in this thread. There's a principle in law that lack of rebuttal implies agreement with a charge, so I'll provide my own brief rebuttal.

1) An accusation was made that a successfully D'ed BSes will never be on staff. That's totally false.

D'ed BSes have usually on the staff during my entire 11+ years as a member. The first guide was a D'ed BS. Two of the current mods are D'ed BSes. It's exceedingly easy to see that - all one needs to do is to look at the list of mods and guides and click their profiles.

2) SI is accused of being heavily biased toward R. People have argued that a number of times since I've been a member.

I just don't see the bias. All I see is that SI is in favor of people healing from infidelity. That means means helping some people R, some people D, some people get more info, and some people figure out something different.

How is SI pro-R? Where is the bias for R?

Those are honest questions; I'm looking for real answers. But if you respond, please be as explicit as you can be. I'm looking for sharing here, not arguing.

For the record, I'm pro-R when both partners want to R and are willing to do the work and pro-D if one (or both) of the partners either wants D or isn't willing to do the work of R.

Note that 'pro-R' is very different from 'pro-R when certain conditions are met'.

*****

To all,

If you read back through or remember past posts in this thread, do you see any statements that insult fellow members? If not, please let me know.

I'm asking fellow members to generate no further insults.

After a pretty rough start on SI (which probably only the mods remember), I think I taught myself to avoid posting when triggered, because that's when I think it is easiest to violate the 'show respect' guideline.

I've found that even when I'm heavily triggered, it's possible to say what I want to say without insult, though sometimes I draft an insulting reply and actually post something else - or nothing. I strongly recommend this or a similar approach.

You might think I’ve attacked a new member for a post. I don’t think I’ll ever see a reason for apologizing for surfacing the willful falsehood, and I think I’ve shown respect for the proposition that SI is pro-R.

Well you didn't do anything wrong, sisoon

Sisoon,

I am posting this only because you asked for it:

If you read back through or remember past posts in this thread, do you see any statements that insult fellow members?

OP just to be clear. No one has advised that you should R on this thread ever. Apparently, to some dim bulbs, any poster who has the audacity to advise that you take a moment to reflect before finalizing a life changing decision for you and your children, and your entire family is the equivalent to bludgeoning you with demands that you pursue R. Of course there are dim bulbs on an open forum like this who think this type of advice is awful and they choose to mischaracterize what is actually said in those posts. So be it. As with all of the advice on this site, you can ignore the advice to reflect on your decision, and leave that advice where it lays. It is well intentioned for you I am sure. But no one on this thread has advised that you must pursue R ever. Good luck.

'Dim bulbs' is not exactly flattering or positive. However, it is not the end of the world either.

As I made a complaint to the administrators about abusive terms being used by forum representatives, I want to explain why I did it. My motivation has nothing to do with whether or not SI is pro-reconciliation or pro-divorce. I have been here for a few years now, and while there are members who may be firmly in one camp or the other, the forum itself is simply a vehicle that allows everyone who makes the effort to put their argument or suggestions to a person who is under no obligation to act upon those suggestions. So even if SI was strongly biased towards divorce or reconciliation, it does not matter, because the people on the receiving end of the suggestions and ideas are free to reject 100% of them if they do not feel like a good fit for them.

So, why did I make a complaint? It is not because I think SI is 'bad', or biased, or a mess. Quite the opposite. The reason why I object to belittling/demeaning terms being used by forum representatives is that I believe it lets the forum down. As anyone with internet access knows, there are many forums that address infidelity in one way or another. Sadly, some even encourage it, or provide a safe harbor for active cheats. Without wishing to disparage any of the work that people in those forums have done to create insight into infidelity, and how people can deal with it, the only forum that I post on is SI, because it is - and this is purely my personal opinion - a forum that consistently has real depth in its threads, and a forum where I have read some real wisdom and compassion that has made me reconsider my attitudes and assumptions.

I did not complain because I think SI is terrible; I complained because I think SI stands out as a quality forum, and I do not want to see that quality diminished by forum representatives, or forum members, entering the territory of intelligence-doubting mud-slinging, or pejorative sexist assumptions. I did preface my post with, " In another thread...", so there are elements that concerned me that exist in another thread.

I did not complain because I think SI is biased towards a particular outcome after infidelity occurs. It is not (in my opinion and experience). I did not complain because I am biased towards a particular outcome; I have done my best to support people via posts and lengthy PM conversations to weather the storms that come from choosing reconciliation or divorce. Neither option is mandatory, neither option is better than the other. The deciding factor - in my opinion - is what feels right to the person involved. In my experience, nobody here is such a persuasive salesperson that they can make someone hellbent on divorce switch to reconciliation, or vice versa.

If we think about it, the people who are most likely to go looking for an infidelity forum, and who end up in SI, are the people who are uncertain about how to respond to infidelity. The people who go straight to divorce will not spend any time looking for SI, and neither will the people who want to rug-sweep and pretend infidelity never happened. SI exists to serve the people who find themselves in the middle, trying to find a solution that suits them. And no matter how loudly someone may shout, "You have to divorce because of xyz", or, "You have a good chance of reconciliation because of xyz", the recipient of the feedback is free to choose whichever way forward feels right for them. So even if SI did have a bias - which I do not think it has - it would not matter, because you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it divorce or reconcile. It has to choose for itself.

SI is - in my opinion - an outstanding forum dealing with infidelity because of the quality and experience of its contributors, and its core of long-term regulars. I have only been here for a few years, but I have seen a few new arrivals turn into really valuable contributors.

The reason I raised a complaint is not because I think SI is bad, but because I do not want to see its high standards slip, because I would hate to see it collapse to become just another online shout-fest, with people trading insults. SI is way better than that, and I believe that is why so many people stay with it. My complaint is an attempt to protect and preserve the standards of SI, and prevent it from slipping into demeaning presumptions and polarized groupings, not an attack on it. I complained because I care about SI, and I care about SI because it is a damn good forum, with a lot of outstanding contributors.

[This message edited by M1965 at 3:07 AM, Sunday, April 3rd]

Looking for advice on to handle this situation. Probably heard it before. Served my wife yesterday (yeah took me long enough) and everyone is trying to shame me for not trying again with her. My kids aren't obviously, they know better. "She's so sad, she passed the polygraph, you're turning the kids against her!" Etc etc. Not a hint of empathy or anything for me but so much for my dumb bitch wife.

90 days until we go before a judge even if she signs so yeah. Just wondering how I should handle this. Because the plan is to simply tell them off especially her parents that your daughter failed and it's not my fault should've raised her better.

It's 5 am sorry for grammar

I would never have used dim-wit.
As a cop we had to learn to use appropriate language. I would have used the term comprehension challenged because what that guide was referring to is correct: There really is no post on this thread telling the OP he needs to reconcile, only some sharing that it’s a possibility. However the OP is very clear on not wanting to reconcile and we should respect that AS LONG as his actions are in accordance.
IMHO the poly has no role whatsoever on the path to D, and is generally a reconciliation biased tool and/or the tipping point to R or D.

Nothere759

Its not their marriage – not their decision.
No – don’t go around bad-mouthing your wife, your inlaws and all that. Blaming her infidelity to how they raised her is (dare I say it…) infantile and has no positive end-result. Maybe the worst outcome for you right now would be to piss off her relatives and friends so they contribute to a great divorce attorney.
Keep in mind that your actions right now can be under a magnifying-glass and anything you say and do used to portray you as abusive, controlling, infallible, unreasonable… whatever. Things that can affect distribution of assets and possibly custody.
Yes – age of kids heavily impacts where they end, but if her attorney can show you turned them against her… You can be in for a long ride.

You want to divorce.
THAT is your goal.
A competent attorney could probably tell you with about 90% accuracy how the division of asstets and debt will go. You can then decide if you want to spend $$$$$ to get $$ more, and decide if you are doing all that to hurt your soon-to-be ex or because the law really makes you entitled to that extra $$.
Personally – I would tell those that meddle that no – it’s not their concern. That you can’t forgive her having had an affair and you have given this thought.