SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The WS or AP may have indeed been a predator, but short of rape, the target has to be open to being caught.

My wife AP was a textbook example of a predator. He saw in my EX someone who was a little older and thinking that life was kind of passing her by. He played her like a fiddle. Not only that, he used her sexually in ways to get back at me for not investing in his half assed planned business. Basically she was used as scorched earth. He screwed her in such ways as to screw me. It worked as I never got it out of my head.

The thing was my EX was not some stupid woman that had never been hit on before. She could had not had the first conversations that were them alone flirting. She could have not offered first coffee, then alcohol. She could have not sent the signals that it was OK for him to kiss her, which proceeded to them directly screwing. Most importantly she could have realized her mistake the first time and cut it off. She did none of those things. In that way she was just as guilty as him.

There are predators out there, it's the responsibility of a married person to proactively block a predator.

This is it in a nutshell. She later said she felt like she lost control, but that to me was never a good enough answer. She let things get physical, and in the end we both paid the price.

Remorseful = accepts responsibility.

WH = use emotion to secure sex. Sex = validation.

WW = use sex to secure emotion. Emotion = validation.

Remorseful spouses understand now what they were really seeking, and that understanding will help them to be safe in the future. They see themselves more clearly now.

Remorseful spouses cannot go back and know what they know now then. No matter how much kicking, screaming, name calling, insulting, complaining, raging you all do--they did what they did to get the validation they were looking for. Men seemed to understand what they needed to say, and women seemed to understand what they needed to do. Nobody has to like it, like what happened. Why would you? But you have to accept that this is the barter system that affairs frequently operate under. If there is a cheater's handbook, then this is a chapter.

You can kick and scream and tantrum that it's not true--that maybe he really loved the OW or maybe she really loved sex with the OM, but that is simply you working the grieving process where we must accept the wholly unacceptable. I'm sorry for everyone's pain, that men would say and do and promise such things to feel validated by sex, and that women would do and be and give away such things to be validated by emotions. But the yin yang is real, even though it involves giving so much of the marital core away.

**Every single A is not this way, but many, many are indeed this way. Which is why when a wayward explains this truth, you are denying what is most likely 100% true.

***And if this is wholly unacceptable, you do not reconcile. Understandable. You can indeed just say No.

****I am an expert. Not at all proud, but at least I am positive that I know what's real. There are a lot of opinions on this thread (and you know what opinions are like), but not many experts. I know what people say and do in affairs, and I know why they do it. Sharing your non-expert opinion borne of anger and resentment is muddying the truth that waywards are attempting to bring to this thread. Sometimes I worry that what some divorced BHs are trying to bring to SI is more divorced BHs. Lofty goal? I think not. Let's shoot for truth as a goal.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:23 PM, July 4th (Wednesday)]

WH = use emotion to secure sex. Sex = validation.

WW = use sex to secure emotion. Emotion = validation.

I agree with this, but, bringing it all the way back to the beginning... In my W's A, the OM was love bombing her from the moment the A started. She was the most amazing person in the world, soulmate, meant to be together, etc, etc, etc. Basically, she could get any emotional validation that she wanted from the OM just by asking. Tell me I'm beautiful. He'd tell her that and send a dozen roses with cards saying it. Put very bluntly, she'd didn't need to f**k him to get the emotions, he was offering it up in spades before anything turned physical. Did he do that in the hopes it became physical? Of course he did. But she didn't have to do it to get those endless compliments. And I believe that most women know this, this is what the "friend zone" is, a guy that will endlessly tell you how wonderful you are that you don't sleep with.

Turning it around, what if the situation were reversed? Man meets AP, she sleeps with him on day 1. Tells him "I just love sleeping with you". Doesn't require any emotional faking or love bombing. If the man is after sex, he's now getting what he wants, right? So, if that's the case, and as you read their e-mails, you see endless "I lovvvee youuu's" and all kinds of emotional stuff from the man, what would you think?

That's the part that's difficult for me to understand. If I wanted sex, and a woman was willing to have it without lying/proclamations of undying love, no way I would say those things. They make me feel bad about myself (lying) and I'd much rather have a relationship based on reality; if the reality is "we like sleeping together but don't love each other", fine, in fact, great if I'm single and just looking for some NSA fun. No way I'm going to be throwing the book of lines at this woman because, I DON'T NEED TO, I'm already getting what I want from the relationship.

And that's the part that's hard to square. If you're getting what you want (the words of affirmation) why on earth do you go further to get something you don't want? Especially when you know that thing is something that's gonna really dangerous (STD's, pregnancy, etc) and also very likely to be the "worst part" for some BS's? Why not stop it where you're getting your needs met?

I know, this is a reiteration of my original question, but, I've read the same thing many times. And I still don't exactly understand the why, especially since so many posters provided a very similar narrative to the one I quoted above. I have no question at all why you continue to escalate if you're after sex, because your "needs" aren't being met until the relationship gets there. But if you are really in an A for the "emotional compatibility", well, that need is met long before most PA's start (typically, not always).

RIO,

Paring it right down, here is what I see as the ends of the spectrum for your situation.

1. "Logical", but not necessarily completely truth telling on your WW's side.

(WW) x 10AF + AP = BH

* where 10 AF (A$$hold factor) = validation (ego building) and desire to have sex

2. "iIllogical", but consistent with what your wife (and some other WWs on here are telling you)

(WW) x 2AF + AP = BH

* where 2 AF = Validation alone

(If I was a math major, perhaps I could also include the cost of the currency she paid, but I am not, so it's a simple equation)

The result is the same with both equations, you were betrayed and hurt. Can you control for the AF? Maybe somewhat, be more aware of it anyway. Ultimately, that's up to her to control.

The" illogical" one is what your WW is telling you happened and I think trying to show you by the sounds of it. She is using your love language to show you remorse, validate your hurt and try to heal you.

You have to decide whether you can be ok with illogical, because that is where you and many others sit. I can tell you, as someone who is apparently on the receiving end of a "logical" A, logic doesn't make my heart hurt any less.

[This message edited by hopeandhealing at 7:59 PM, July 4th (Wednesday)]

You have to decide whether you can be ok with illogical, because that is where you and many others sit. I can tell you, as someone who is apparently on the receiving end of a "logical" A, logic doesn't make my heart hurt any less.

That's a great point, and no, it doesn't. It wouldn't make mine hurt any less if could logically put it all together either. But it would make my mind hurt less. I know that sounds kind of funny, but it's true. If there was an answer to the "why" that made sense, I think I could take that and decide, OK, RIO, you understand why, can you live with it? If the why was "I just wanted some new d**k" or "a better lay", well, no, I wouldn't be able to live with that. Not saying any BS's who have WS's who say that and stay are wrong, but that, to me, would be dealbreaker. I know it doesn't change one iota what happened, but, at the same time, it changes how I feel about what happened. And yes, I'm fully aware that WW's are often dealing with exactly this, and yes, my heart goes out to you.

I guess, in some ways, it's important for me to know why so I can dig into who she really is as a person. People can justify the worst things imaginable for "love", and, while I think it's crazy, it's pretty universal. But a W that's just out for a "new lay", well, that's a bride too far for me because it's so common, she can have 10 new lays before tomorrow is over if she wanted them, and it's terrifying to think of that as her motivation.

I don't think that is it. I really don't. But, at the same time, I don't understand why, if that's not what she wanted (sex) she was doing that so quickly (and with such enthusiasm). That's all there really was in their A, yes, there were lots of "I love you's" but.. And I guess this is the whole point of this, it's just impossible for me to imagine flushing my marriage down the toilet for an "I love you". Now, for some port star sex? Yes, I understand why guys do that, I don't agree with it, but I understand it (if that makes any sense).

Someone mentioned kool-aid? Is there any left?

They do for some, as we see in this thread, but I can't imagine why/how it would be easier to get a woman to "date" you when your married.

Yet, this entire site is full of them. Married going after married.

Don't be the one to say yes!

Again goes back to some of us that are saying it doesn't matter if the AP is a player. The wayward was still willing to say yes. Does it really make it better that they say yes to someone that isn't a player and this was their first affair? They still chose someone to satisfy their needs over their marriage. And again, letting a wayward settle on the fact that they were played, leaves doors open for being a victim and IMO less self reflection.

Surely you've heard of this phenomenon? There's entire web sites devoted to it. More men cheat than women (or at least used to)...who do they cheat with? Single women willing to fuck married men. They like the power over the man AND his BW, (they "won"). They like the freedom, no strings for them. They like the leverage it gives (I'll tell your WW)......

True too. My wife had me watch several Dr. Phil shows with predatory OW. The main speaker was Chef Ramsey's AP and she wrote a book. All the woman on the show were damn proud of what they were doing with several married men. Of course that woman came back later after deciding to get into a committed relationship only to be cheated on herself.

In my W's A, the OM was love bombing her from the moment the A started.

And she accepted it, even when she was married. Doesn't matter that he knew exactly what to say or love bombed her. Just like the line for men states, the AP could have dance naked in front of you, it was your duty to turn away. YOU WERE MARRIED. Playing doesn't exist after that simple fact. We were married.

Did he do that in the hopes it became physical? Of course he did. But she didn't have to do it to get those endless compliments.

Again, how do you know that. Perhaps she did to keep it flowing. Perhaps she sensed that if she didn't put out, it would stop. Maybe she wanted to because he made her feel and want it from the love bombing and romantic cards? Some Nicholas Sparks BS romance caught up in the emotions and desire. Woman want that or there wouldn't be wasted space in the book store for those type of books.

But she didn't have to do it to get those endless compliments.

You basically say all cheating men just want sex, so of course she had to do that to get the endless compliments. Which BTW are you really sure he was out for sex. Maybe he wanted attention and a side relationship like some the men here.

People can justify the worst things imaginable for "love", and, while I think it's crazy, it's pretty universal.

I don't think that is it. People will do those things for validation. People will do those things to build up their self esteem and ego. They do those things because they are in pain. None of that is for love from someone else. The someone else is just a mirror of themselves. Just someone they can get fed by and not hound them to stop swimming in shit. It is because they don't love or value themselves. A wayward may trick or justify that they are doing it for "luv" but deep down they knew they didn't love themselves because they wanted those ego kibbles. Why? Because they felt shitty about themselves and were unhappy and in pain.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 11:42 PM, July 4th (Wednesday)]

RIO: I do agree that there is a twisted logic behind most of the bad decisions a wayward makes in getting into and perpetuating an A. The emphasis on twisted. This can be understood when the wayward gets to her "whys" with her IC.

We have seen many threads of WW A's where the WW had a longstanding, often subconscious but still deep-seated existential issue, a feeling of worthlessness or lack of desirability, something like that. Often quite specific.

My gut feeling is that your WW's issue had to do specifically with a longstanding feeling of sexual inadequacy, a subconscious desire to feel like a powerful sexual woman. My thesis is that she had suppressed that for years, to the point where she was possibly even unaware of it, but it was so buried that she could not pursue this with you because you were part of the cause of her feeling of sexual inadequacy.

Phrase it another way. On SI we see over and over the equation "traded sex for ego kibbles". Fine. But to apply that equation in an individual circumstance, you need to drill down to the specific kind of ego kibbles the particular WW was receiving, which gets to the void in her soul that was being fed by him in the first place. As mentioned, often she is unaware of that void, or has tried to suppress it, or some such.

As a hypothetical, let's discuss a wife whose passion is writing poetry. She spends umpteen hours a day perfecting her craft, but when her H gets home from work and she shares a work that she is especially proud of, all he gives is a distracted "Oh, that's nice" and then "What's for dinner?"

She meets a man who loves poetry, a credentialed man who has been published and teaches poetry. He loves her poetry. He also finds her hot. He tells her that her poetry is the most amazing work he has read since Ntozake Shange, and that he thinks he is in love with her soul. They start fucking. "Oh, that couplet, so amazing!" "Ungh, give it to me Rhymemaster!"

What puzzles you about your WW is that her A was so intensely and immediately and exclusively sexual. It seems incongruous to you because she was previously not particularly sexual, and also because the verbal ego kibbles from POSOM were given so unconditionally that it is clear she didn't need to give up the yoni to get them. It doesn't add up.

It doesn't add up unless the ego kibble she actually wanted was an affirmation of her power as a sexual woman. Then, it makes sense. And as I've said before, my gut is that at least at a subconscious level she was aware that you were less than satisfied with her sexuality prior to the A. It could have been on a completely unspoken level, just body language and intuition, but years of being married to a person who doesn't really desire her sexually are going to leave her hungry for feeling that she is desired sexually.

By the way, this also explains why she picked an AP who gushed so much over her from first meeting. Picking somebody who was deeply infatuated would make it pretty certain she'd rock his world with the pussy. He was her sex puppet. You, with your relatively large amount of sexual experience, would not be as easily manipulated.

Also, we know, from lots of threads here on SI, that in many cases married women have pre-existing frameworks of sexual propriety, some belief about how a wife should be with her husband sexually, probably instilled by her mother. In many cases, that includes "don't be too much of a freak with him because he'll think of you as a whore."

By the way, for the ladies reading, if this is your belief, please throw it away as quickly as you can and forget any kind of restriction of this nature. The fastest way to make your husband happy, and hungry for more of what you're dishing up, is to be completely GGG (in the words of Dan Savage) in the bedroom. Take him through all 35 positions, and then use your imagination to come up with some trick that will leave his head spinning. You won't be sorry. The payback will be many times the investment. Same advice for the fellas, by the way.

But I digress. It could be that part of your WW's inhibitions in your pre-A marital sex have roots in training she received from her parents, or culture. Whatever the case, my point is that the ego kibbles she sought weren't just, "Baby you're so beautiful". She also wanted, "Baby, you are so good at sex. I've never met anybody as good at sex as you are."

And for whatever reason -- possibly her social construct as taught by her parents and upbringing -- she could not find it within her to start exploring the fantasy stuff with you. It's not uncommon to hear wives say that they worried that exploring their inner freak with their husband might make their husband view them in a bad light. Totally the wrong thing to believe, but it is not uncommon in my experience and observation.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:28 AM, July 5th (Thursday)]

As far as I can tell, my XWW was having a breakdown about lots of thing, especially the difficult twin transitions of her only daughter becoming a woman and she herself about to enter menopause. She'd always had weird self-perceptions about her appearance. I say weird, because she is a physically lovely woman, so her self-critical view never made sense.

She had to see herself as attractive and still sexually powerful. Somehow, my words of praise and attraction to her "didn't count." She needed affirmation that she could still be attractive to a new man.

Poor mess of a thing picked the most abject loser she could find - a (not so) recovering opiate addict who had lost home, family, worldly possessions to his addictions. It's hard to believe, but she apparently didn't know that finding a man to have sex with is pretty fucking easy if you're sleazy.

Ironically, this ended up further eroding her already shaky self-confidence. When the affair was revealed and I confronted him in his workplace, he began to make threats of violence against our family. Pretty sexy, huh?

What Zugzwang said! Especially

You basically say all cheating men just want sex, so of course she had to do that to get the endless compliments.

You have this assumption that a woman's power is a man's desire for sex, and that is somewhat true. But since, as you seem to believe, men are obsessed with having sex and not just wanting sex, then leaving them wanting really gives no one person more validation than anyone else. You seem to believe having sex does not increase validation for both parties, and I would have to say that all evidence in society suggests otherwise.

Did you see my thread on returning to unsatisfying sex? It is common. And since people are already affairing down in many different ways, why wouldn't they affair down sexually? I can tell you, they would. And do. Just like they affair down in every other way.

Affairing down actually makes perfect sense to the question of why. If I need validation for some twisted reason and my self-esteem is hurting, I choose someone who thinks I am beyond amazing. Instant validation supply. I see it all the time, literally constantly. The affair partner is like a puppet on a string--staring starry-eyed and smiling at everything--not like an equal or a partner for life. The AP is clearly being used for validation only, and trust me, I feel plenty sh$tty about that. Hurting people you love is the height of shame, but using people feels awfully bad, too. I had no idea that I was capable of being such an all-around despicable human being.

And from Butforthegrace.

I do agree that there is a twisted logic behind most of the bad decisions a wayward makes in getting into and perpetuating an A.

Part of healing and grieving is why, why, why did this have to happen? And part of grief is that it feels so senseless! But when you are grieving the action of a loved one, their action will have been for a reason, albeit a messed up one. People do things for a reason, and when they are messed up, it's a twisted reason. But they still had their reasons.

I think Butforthegrace may be hitting on something to consider. Sometimes one spouse feels very buoyed by a marriage or very successful in life while the other starts to feel very invisible or lost. It is not uncommon for the invisible feeling spouse to adore their mate but feel so lost in the M and in their own value that they seek out a situation where they have all the beauty, all the power, or the star status.

From what you say RideItOut, this could be part of your W's issue. I can't know that, but it's a possibility from what you've said. This especially happens when two beautiful, accomplished people marry and only one seems to continue on while the other feels themselves fall back--maybe having kids or less free time or loss of career due to spouse, a big move, or even a financial/status crunch. Just because somebody enters an M with a boat-load of self-esteem does not mean it stays that way.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:39 AM, July 5th (Thursday)]

T/J:

Cheatee, maybe you've said somewhere and I didn't see, but what happened to end the marriage? What happened after the A? Did you attempt reconciliation?

Your bio mentions 'ugliness.' I'm sorry.

You have this assumption that a woman's power is a man's desire for sex, and that is somewhat true. But since, as you seem to believe, men are obsessed with having sex and not just wanting sex, then leaving them wanting really gives no one person more validation than anyone else. You seem to believe having sex does not increase validation for both parties, and I would have to say that all evidence in society suggests otherwise.

Could you expand on this a bit? Because, in my (perhaps twisted) view of the world, a lot of women feel bad about having sex. They don't feel (or at least they SAY they don't feel) validated, they feel like something was taken from them. Used, I think, is the term that I would say best fits. If we start from the angle that both people really want/enjoy sex, yes, what you're saying lines up. But a lot of women claim that's not the case (including my W). It wasn't for the pleasure/enjoyment of sex, it was to get something else. And this is pretty common, I've dated a lot of women who'll recount previous lovers with real disdain (Oh, yeah, I slept with Bobby, but that was a huge mistake, I really wish I hadn't). That's not my experience at all. I've slept with people I didn't like, people who I didn't find attractive, but I've never looked back and though "Oh man, what a mistake". That woman gave me something, even if I later realized it wasn't something I really wanted, it was still a "gift" (if that makes any sense at all). So, no, other than the damage I did to other people sleeping around, I don't regret the sex. I regret the lying to get it.

Did you see my thread on returning to unsatisfying sex? It is common. And since people are already affairing down in many different ways, why wouldn't they affair down sexually? I can tell you, they would. And do. Just like they affair down in every other way.

It may be common for women. Speaking for myself, it's hard to actually imagine "bad sex". If we lay out life experiences on a 1-10 scale, with 1 being going to prison, and 10 being transcendence, all sex for me has been somewhere in the 9's. Bad sex might be a 9.2. Great sex a 9.9. But it's still so much better than just about every other experience that ranking them seems a bit redundant. Yes, some is better than others, some acts are more exciting, some people are better lovers. But we're splitting hairs; it's hard for me to imagine sex landing at a "5" for example (let's call that, even keel, nothing bad/good especially, sitting around watching a TV show). Sex is always better than that, at least it is for me. I have a sneaking suspicion that this isn't going to be the case for other posters, but, it is for me and I think it's that way a lot of my friends too. Why spend all the time, effort, risk to have sex if it might only be as good as watching a re-run of Friends?

Why spend all the time, effort, risk to have sex if it might only be as good as watching a re-run of Friends?

For. The. Validation!!!!

Validation could be found from girlfriends though right? What type of validation are you talking about?

Validation could be found from girlfriends though right? What type of validation are you talking about?

I was wondering the same thing. Is this just semantics, "validation" is a way of saying "I like sex"? Or is it the literal meaning of validation? If it's the second, I really don't understand how sex is validating to women; I'm not trying to be sexist, but, this is just one of those areas where there are marked differences between the sexes. Validating to men, yes, because it's hard to get and because it's very highly valued for most of us. But, for women; if you're offering NSA sex (which is basically what an A often is), and you put a post on any message board or hang a sign on your front door, you'll have a line of guys around the block ready to take you up on that.

To excerpt a part of my post above, that I edited recently, I think your WW's void, her existential issue where she was seeking validation, was her value as a sexual being. I think the ego kibble she was seeking was, "You are incredibly sexual."

To that end, I think she selected an AP who was clearly head-over-heels infatuated with her to be safe on that part. She wanted to be sure his world would be rocked by the pussy. She didn't just want sex. She wanted a sex puppet.

Hanging out a shingle offering NSA sex would not assure her of that level of security. She risked encountering sexually experienced men looking for a sexually sophisticated partner. Men like this might be disappointed in what she was dishing up. After years of feeling in her heart that her BH was disappointed with what she was dishing up, she couldn't take that risk. The emotional cost would be too high.

But she didn't have to do it to get those endless compliments.

I'm not saying the 'reasons' are valid, but the ones I got through her IC and MC are -- in our case, is the compliments escalated over six months to include suggestions of wanting her and wanting more.

AP was already a friend of the family, mutual family dinners, etc., and he slowly turned the heat up knowing she was going through postpartum depression -- our wives were friends and a great source of extra info on my wife. He used that info too. NONE of that is an excuse.

And to catch up on another part that took me a while to figure out, my wife is brilliant (normally) and beautiful and getting hit on was very common in those early years of our relationship. She turned them all away without a second thought. It provided a false sense of security.

It sort of the boiling frog theory -- when a frog is hopping along and jumps into a boiling pot of water, it jumps back out right away. When a frog is lounging around in a pot of water where the heat is slowly turned up, by the time the water is boiling, it is too late, it is dead.

My wife turned away all of pick up artist/one liner guys. Instant compliments meant nothing to her. Clear intent was easily recognized, but the infidelity started as dreaded 'friends'.

AP - who was the least of any guy who ever picked up on her, his compliments were somehow 'real' because he started with tiny little compliments and built it up over months.

My wife was certain the only way to keep those feelings building up was to cave in to his suggestions. They kissed and made out like high school kids a few times over eight more weeks before the sex started up. That's when AP started to measure the compliments based on performance, to keep things rolling. He claimed years later he was a SA when did the 12-step apology call. The slow build was his game with a number of women over time before he was finally caught by his BS.

As to the male validation, foo stuff with her alcoholic father. Again, not a real reason to cheat (there are no reasons to cheat, but we try to understand anyway), just the issue she had to address to change.

Rio, you are still stuck filtering this through your perception.

Being sexually desired is validating.

You seem to not get it because you had trouble getting sex from women. You find it hard to believe that there is really no shortage of women who are pursuers or looking for NSA. You think sex is a short commodity for men, thus it has higher validation value to men. I, again, urge that there are plenty of these kind of women. I know. I was one of them. My WS also managed to find quite a few of them. You just have to know where to look.

Being sexually desired is validating. But the reasons why vary. It might be a shortage of sex. It might be feeling unattractive (that was me). It might be sexual abuse. It might be rejection from a parent that is contorted into something sexual. Sex says: you are ok, in some way.

You seem to also have trouble because you never had bad sex, and find it difficult to believe because of your experience. Your experience is only yours. At some point, I feel like you'll have to accept that your experience is not the only way to experience sex in order for you to make sense of it.

I think Butforthegrace is onto something:

My gut feeling is that your WW's issue had to do specifically with a longstanding feeling of sexual inadequacy, a subconscious desire to feel like a powerful sexual woman. My thesis is that she had suppressed that for years, to the point where she was possibly even unaware of it, but it was so buried that she could not pursue this with you because you were part of the cause of her feeling of sexual inadequacy.

I am going to expand on this hypothesis. My whys were different than your wife's and the situation was different. But, I do see the areas in which polarization has occurred in our relationship.

I am going to take this to an example for my husband. I have worked over and over in spells over the course of our marriage to get him to talk about his feelings. Our problem has never been physical intimacy - we have had that in spades. But, emotional intimacy is a struggle. I don't think it's because my husband doesn't want to give it to me, it's because he doesn't know how. Often times, he really doesn't understand himself to be able to share in that way. And, other times, I am reaching for something that just really isn't there. (Meaning, he just doesn't have feelings about a certain topic and I am trying to get him to talk about it and he can't - it's not there)

So, what happens?

What happens is he doesn't even attempt to initiate such conversations even with something on his mind. If I broach it, he shuts down. Why? Because he doesn't want to explore emotions with me? No, because he knows I want to so much that if he does it wrong, or opens it up a little bit I am going to run with it. Or that I will want him to do it more.

So, taking your wife's possible view point. Sex is the major thing for you. It's super important to you. She has spent your marriage trying to keep the expectation down, like my husband has. If she suddenly wanted to try to be different sexually and opened that door but then didn't like it - that would be a huge disappointment to you. Giving you a toy and taking it away. You would want to run with it, you would want more.

As butforthegrace points out - none of this is conscious. Often times, as it was for me, the affair is an escape from reality. The power of it isn't the AP. I can assure you. A lot of the power of it is who we can suddenly be and it's not authentic.

Before XHZ takes offense, I will say 100% there is no justification for an affair. It's 100% the waywards fault, not the BS's. But, getting to our whys and hows is a completely different story.

For me, what I latched on to and drank up was the AP had an ability to communicate about his emotions. He was actually (sorry for the generalization) quite more feminine than my husband. He had interests in my clothes choices or how I was wearing my hair. It was all lies and smoke and mirrors of course because he was as lacking in character as much as I was if not even moreso as a serial cheater. Like I said, he was just better at it and he knew the ways to mirror me. Again, I am not a victim, I can clearly see the ways I played to him to keep his interest as well.

I get that sex is hugely important to guys. But, for you it's paramount - top tier. Maybe even more so because you decided that you would live without certain things or actions because you love your wife. Kind of starving that part of you that gives it just a bit more edge than an H that is getting it on the regular. (I am reminded of what Dr. Phil used to say - sex is 10% of marriage, but if it's not happening it's 90%) That starving feeling you are having could easily polarize with a woman who might actually be sexual but make it more scary to explore with you. My clue here is in another post you said she wanted to resume watching porn after the A and it was okay with you. A non-sexual woman does not watch porn, especially not on her own. That doesn't even make sense.

So, Here are some things I think you need to think about more in your reconciliation:

1. I still think the sex is not the thing that hurts exactly, is the fact it's your greatest love language and she spoke that language to him. Thus, a part of you feels she loved him/desired him more. This is still about feelings and not about the sex. If you can find a way to express that to her she is going to understand it better and it's going to help balance the situation and not polarize the sex issue more. Maybe that has been worked out more, it sounds like the sex life has been being worked on.

2. The feeling you don't know her because she was completely different in the A than you have known her to be. This is where she really needs to get to the root of her whys. I mean digging past the whole getting validation thing. I mean getting specific the way butforthegrace is talking about. It's hard to unearth, I still unearth things and I don't like some of it. So, I put it away and then get it out and look at it again later, over and over until I really can process it. It is a painful process, and painfully slow.

3. Somehow during your process, and this might take longer, you need to internalize the fact this AP didn't have some magic dick or something about him that made your wife go mad. That's not what happened at all. Very little of what happens in the affair is about the AP at all. She was able to be different somehow. What was she escaping? Porn star sex? Please...if I was performing that it would mean I was really getting very little out of the sex. Its so fake. I know guys want to see our excitement, but I believe more genuinely. The fakeness is not excitement it's a performance. Why the need for the performance? Validation likely, but like butforthegrace said - likely validation that she has that in her, that power. Sure, she could show it to you, but then you would want her to show it all the time. And, she's not comfortable with that because she doesn't know if that's really her sexually. She doesn't know how to explore who she is sexually without disappointing you if she puts that away and tries something else??? Not sure, but that makes sense to me.

4. In building a new marriage, what can you do to balance out the polarization? Are you constantly lecherous when any type of physical intimacy occurs? How is your emotional intimacy? What would the new marriage look like?

You may not be at all poised yet for #4. I can't tell if you are still in recovery or truly in the reconciliation phase. But I feel like if you want to reconcile and you want to be married to your wife - which by any post that I have read of yours you do...then having that picture in mind of what you want it to look like together is the only way to build it. Who builds a house without a plan? You know where the kitchen is going to be an how large, there are reasons the masterbedroom is here instead of there...

I don't believe for a minute you are going to figure out your equation. How much asshole factor exists in your wife, or how you can control it in the future. If you want the best way forward, I truly believe it's going to have to be with getting underneath of this issue instead of looking at it head-on. You have been stuck there for a long time, it would be worth a shot. You might be stuck because she is stuck too - how well is she moving forward? Are you happy with her progress or the work she has done on herself?

At some point, I feel like you'll have to accept that your experience is not the only way to experience sex in order for you to make sense of it.

Exactly.

At this point, it's that you refuse to accept what does not seem logical to you. The problem with believing that we need to understand and be able to relate to and agree with other people's experiences to believe them true is that it supposes we know everything already. And we don't. Are you open to learning that this experience was very validating for her, even though you can't fully understand it?

Also, girlfriends are as validating as men to us if male friends are as sexually appealing as women to you. I mean, be realistic--validation from the opposite sex is a different and frequently more potent kind than what we get from friends and family, right? As sexual beings, only the opposite sex can validate our attractiveness and power. An ability to have lots of friends is a strength, but nothing like the ability to make the opposite sex drool. Companies exploit that truth to the tune of billions per year.

But I have the distinct impression that this thread is so long because you refuse to get it, not because you don't. So I will end my explaining here.