SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You're not going mad. I could not believe my ears when out MC said to me something like "did you hear what WW said? Can you reaffirm what she said."

I can't do it any more.

If MC is a trauma specialist, seems like they should address the trauma... no? Like triage.

The MC is a grief and trauma specialist. WW and myself have been doing IC with them. After a few IC, I decided to try MC with her on a trial basis.

Am I understanding correctly that the MC is also an IC?

So the first weeks were to be spent working on communication. Okay, sound enough way to start. But in practice I feel abused and attacked. Two examples from last session:

This is not a "sound way to start". It's therapy bullshit.

A sound way to start is to get everything on the table, the whole truth and then start dealing with it piece by piece.

"Communication issues" is a first-level dodge of cheaters to hide behind.

You see, she wouldn't have fucked this other guy if you "knew how to communicate"!

Remarkably, post session, my WW had sympathy for me on how it went. Her recognition was the only positive. But in-session WW went with this flow of feelings, absent of any description is somehow central. I know how I feel and exactly why I feel that way and will cite examples all day. I still don't freaking get it. Not all feelings are valid. If an arsonist burns down a house and then claims the he's feeling abused by the police, but then can't site an example of the abuse, how is it supposed to be taken seriously? Is this a Venus vs Mars type thing, how women view feelings vs men?

Okay, lemme explain this one because I had the exact same thing happen to me:

Cheaters are by their nature chickenshit. So in the therapists' office they attack you by proxy - it's about your poor communication, you're intimidating etc. They never ante up the truth and you're made to eat shit for 45 minutes to an hour.

Then afterwards, the cheater is like you "weren't treated fairly" or whatever. Then why the fuck didn't he/she speak up in the office?

It's abuse. And it is soul-crushing. You go in their earnestly to help work through a problem and your cheater is trying to find ways to shut you down.

If you go back to this therapist - and you shouldn't - You should insist that the discussion is about your injury from the hands of your wife and your grief and your trauma.

You should discuss exactly what this injury is, what the whole truth of it is, in as much detail as you want. She needs to be told to understand what you feel, not the other way around.

***

But here is the truth of the matter. Talk therapy for cheaters is 99% bullshit. If they don't want to come clean, tell the truth, truly examine themselves, there is nothing a therapist is gonna do but take your money week after week and blow smoke up your ass and protect her ego.

You need to understand the real purpose of this therapy is to develop some "reasons" for her cheating that you will "understand" and then come to "accept".

Basically trying to "get out of trouble"

Not accountability for her. Not her truly understanding the grievous injury she has dealt you. not her even really caring (caring is demonstrated by action, just as her lack of caring was demonstrated through her actions).

Therapy before truth is putting the cart before the horse.

Here is a script for you:

Therapist: Do you understand how she feels?

Apparition: I want the entire truth and then we can talk about how I feel and then maybe we can discuss her feelings after that.

Cheating Wife: I am intimidated.

Apparition: We will not be addressing that today. I want the entire truth and then we can talk about how I feel and then maybe we can why her actions have caused her to feel intimated after that.

***

But better to not waste your money. Or your time.

MC is a waste of time and money.

Ron

Apparition, surely you must see that your WW is a million miles from true remorse or doing anything that might merit reconciliation AND that your MC is a complete idiot and dangerous to your personal well-being.

Apparition,

I read your brief history. Your wife checks the boxes for being a sex addict. Is her IC a CSAT? Does your MC know anything about SA?

Speaking from experience, I've heard the line from my SAWH about how he doesn't measure up or feels less than. The same sort of line your WW gave you and your MC. The reason they feel that way has nothing to do with us, and everything to do with their complete lack of self esteem, which contributed to their SA behavior (and frankly, how can a person feel like they measure up when they're screwing around on their spouse.)

Also, in terms of your hoping she'll confess to everything, SA can have disassociative episodes, so she might very well not actually remember everything she's done. But in any event, why beat around the bush? Ask her to see a CSAT and prepare for full theraputic disclosure with a polygraph.

If you want more confirmation of the SA behavior, pop over to the spouses/partners of SA pages on the "I can relate" forum.

And take care of yourself. Many partners of SA end up with complex PTSD. A betrayal trauma specialist would be a good choice for your IC.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 2:51 AM, December 19th (Saturday)]

Thumos is right. There is only one person in your marriage working R.

I made a list, not unlike what Thumos posted that you were responding. An yes, other than being physically present, there is only one person doing R. The word I keep coming back to is "proactive". And as I look at opportunities she's had, some of those are very situationally specific, and once they pass they never come back. WWs opportunities at being a proactive participant are vanishing. And as Thumos also said, "If you want to reconcile, then better flip the script and soon.". This isn't hyperbole, I can actually see the opportunity for R narrowing to nothing. Someone said R is a gift. I've offered that gift and in return I get half hearted participation in R and the "When will it ever be enough!"

'Do you believe an A is the result of M issues or personal issues within the WS?'

One of the reasons I felt okay about the MC was C said the affair was not my fault, I did nothing to cause it, and it wasn't the fault of the marriage. But in actual MC, I'm not seeing this play out, there appears to be a "all feelings are valid" thing happening. The "Socks" example could be almost word for word, except we haven't actually dealt with the A.

You thought it was the best of marriages. Is it probable that your conception and your wife’s conception of the marriage are so far apart she needed to cheat, or is it more probable she just wanted to cheat?

She was selfish and she wanted to have a marriage she enjoyed and all the benefits of cheating. She did not "come forward" as is a new narrative she's slowly injecting. She was called out, lied, lied, was cornered, did partial confessions, was presented with facts, and more partial confessions. She keeps stating she wants the marriage like it was and talks glowingly of me and the M - as long as we're not talking about the nuclear hot topic of A, then she's a different woman.

I'm still with my wife. I would like to say because we have reconciled but mainly because she kept hiding the truth of the affairs. I lost nearly 30 lbs after I found out. I just didn't feel like eating. Sadly I've put it all back on. Like your wife, I really love how she just wants to focus on the future. Saying, "I don't think about the past, why can't you just move forward too?" I keep telling her because I keep getting dragged back by all the lies and lack of truth, and "...for those who don't learn anything from the past they are bound to repeat it." She just wants me to forget and move on. She doesn't get it.

We’re all in so much pain, so sorry to hear about not just what has been done to you, but the abuse you’re still suffering. I hope you don’t mind me saying, but I read you and others and see this “canary in the coal mine”. Where I see where you’ve ended up and see myself suffering the same fate. My WW is great if we’re talking and working on “forward” but “backward (my pain)” sends us spiraling out of control. To me this is just more selfishness on her part. I don’t need her to crawl through glass, I don’t need restitution (impossible), what I need is caring and focus on me. If the WSs aren’t capable of that, then why do we bother? It really means they haven’t changed. Bless you Moonmatt.

Did she also believe she was in the best of marriages?

That’s what she says over and over. She says she can’t believe she threw something so good away. If we’re not talking directly about her choices, then she’s all about saying how much the M meant to her and how much I mean to her and how happy she was. But I can’t actually buy it all. First, WW has been and still is a liar (still is a liar being most relevant), so how do I know what she actually feels and wants? Secondly, she says and does things which show a “never satisfied” streak. So no matter how wild, long, and good our sex is, there is still the, “what next?”. No matter how many vacations we go on, there is always, “where next?”. No matter how good a time we have out there is always, “when next?”. I can’t articulate this, but suffice it say I don’t feel like we can ever just have a great time and bask in that. I’m not saying we don’t keep doing things, but there is something about the “kicks get harder to get”, that she seems to lean into. Can a person that thinks there is always a bigger kick to get really believe they are in the “best marriage”? I’m suspecting not.

Neither you nor the MC can take anything she has to say at face value.

Yep. MC seems to be taking feelings as facts.

Does she really have it in her? Do you?

No, I don’t believe so, I’ve seen no actual sign she has “it” in her. It being your various questions from both your related posts. I really do, as long as I get certain actions from her. I can see that path, not just want it, but I know myself, I can see it and heal.

I agree with This0is0fine the basic conflict of interest of a MC is that she is there to cure you but does not get paid if she does.

Agree, others have also stated the philosophical approach of affair recovery vs marriage counseling. My wife did indeed take a wrecking ball to our M and me. MC seems to want to restore M without dealing with the A. Which I can see in the way my WW has liked the sessions. It’s great for a cheater: deal with all sorts of M stuff where both spouses can be found to be in error and make improvements and compromises, but not the A and the damage the A has caused, where the WS has to be proactive and do work. This is how I’m seeing it now.

"What actions have you taken to show you are trustworthy?" "What type of reassurances have you given your husband?" "What proof have you offered for your husband to verify your claims?"

The MC is an IC for both WW and me, they say they can do more and move quicker that way. I was going to take my next individual session and do my same routine of using the Individual Counselor (IC is what I’ve been using/correct?) as a dumping ground for my pain and for the things I don’t see WW doing. Basically, I’ve been asked by MC to be patient, so I’m to push it all down into my belly until it kills me. So my individual sessions turned into this one opportunity each week to let the pain out a little. Not this next time. I’m using this and questions I’ve seen on here to be posed to MC (I meant to do this earlier, but had signs things would be okay). I’m going to see exactly what this MC’s plan is, if it’s not in keeping with healing me, WW accountability, etc., then it’s not what I need and is useless to me. I’m out if it’s general MC and not affair recovery work that actually puts my trauma recovery as a priority.

I know I just posted a long one, but meant to get to this question as its an open question.

I read your brief history. Your wife checks the boxes for being a sex addict. Is her IC a CSAT? Does your MC know anything about SA?

Her IC gave her a sex addiction battery of questions. I researched SA myself. My WW has researched it. A few years ago (menopause) WW's sexual appetite went from high to explosive. I thought it was fun and enjoyed the new energy.

To be frank, she meets the activities of an SA, but not the emotional cycles I keep reading about. She took high risk with no concern. Understood it would lead to divorce if found out. She had no remorse or regret. Generally felt good and enjoyed her sexual activities. She enjoyed the attention and the affirmation men gave her during all of it. Was not concerned about STDs. No highs, lows, or shame periods. No build up to the next sexual activity. Having heard her describe her emotional state, it was basically: "I enjoyed porn, sex, and EA like a "single person"" I'm not putting any words in her mouth or imagining, all of the above is direct from WW.

I did read that SA can be learned. The brain is a learning machine, we decide what to teach it. If we feed it sex for escapism, sex for affirmation, risky (forbidden) sexual behavior and the relating positive hormones, then we train the body to want it. If she is SA, I believe it started as simple selfishness and she trained herself into SA. Perhaps that's overly critical, but that's my best guess given the information I have.

I can tell you from experience when someone says this:

WW: Intimidated. Like he didn't hear me. I don't have examples, it was a feeling.

They don't have examples because their feelings aren't based on whatever the other person is doing. She's not intimidated by you. She's intimidated by the fact that the more you question her, the more it reveals a side of her that she is trying to hide from you. Whether that's the exposure of lies, the exposure of manipulations, or just a highlight of what a terrible spouse she has been to you behind closed doors. That's not something YOU are doing and truthfully has very little to do with you. She'd be intimidated even if you said absolutely nothing because it's based on her own insecurities about the choices she has made.

Yes, cheating on someone, especially if it's been done repeatedly over a long period of time, and then having to *gasp* TALK to them about it and ADMIT what you did is UNCOMFORTABLE! Being asked questions you'd rather not answer is INTIMIDATING! When you're trying to present yourself in the best possible light AND take as little responsibility for your bad behavior as possible AND keep your marriage intact, it's hard to know what the correct answer is to give! It's almost as if there isn't a correct answer other than being honest, truthful, and contrite. Imagine that!

Hopefully that highlights it for you that you share absolutely NO responsibility for her feelings of intimidation and discomfort. Hell, even if you were pushy and angry - guess what - that's a NORMAL and expected response to being cheated on. Even if you did sit her down and demand answers for a long period of time - what the hell did she expect when she went out with X number of OM and then continued to TT you? Her whining about intimidation and being questioned is like a murderer complaining about being detained and interrogated by the police! If you do the crime and cover it up, of course there will be uncomfortable questions. But she's not an idiot, a child, or mentally handicapped (hopefully) so of course she knows this which is why she's attempting to deflect from it by pointing the finger at you and muddying the waters by focusing on the negative feelings you make her feel by not quietly and politely accepting being betrayed so intimately flagrantly.

During talking I say my wife must be harboring resentment if she is feeling intimidated and is often not getting what she wants.

There is truth in this. She's not getting to go back to the fantasy life she had with a good husband at home and a voracious dating life on the side. She's not getting to keep her marriage exactly as good as it was when you were unaware of what she was up to. She's being asked to *GASP* REFLECT and CHANGE into the wife she was pretending to be all this time! Yes, I'd say that if you're entitled and used to getting your way all the time, this could cause some resentment.

MC to Me: We don't know what people are feeling and people don't usually respond well to being told how the feel.

And here's the rub - you're not telling her how to feel by questioning what lead to her feeling intimidated by you and actually it's quite the opposite - by refusing to give examples and tell you what you are doing to make her feel that way, she's attempting to tell you what you did, meant, or said without allowing you a chance to explain yourself, correct your future actions to make her feel better, or defend yourself in the event that whatever made her feel intimidated was a complete fabrication thrown out to make you look like the bad guy. She's the one trying to control your narrative by throwing out accusations of impropriety without any proof. Not you.

MC to Me: We are trying to focus on real feelings, not what we believe other people are feeling.

Holy hell this is bad. So now your MC gets to determine what's a "real" feeling or not. Your feelings apparently don't count because they are based on something your WW did or a belief you have about her. But your WW's feelings based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING she can pinpoint involving something you did or a belief she has about you? Valid and supported.

Then four more times in the same session the MC brings up my error of stating how WW felt as an example of how not to communicate. At end of session, MC wrapped up like we had great progress, WW said things went good, I told them both I didn't appreciate being attacked and made out to be the bad person for an hour. MC apologized that I felt that way and asked that I understand we're working on communication skills and it's going to be hard for both of us. That we're working toward communicating so we can work on marital issues.

Well, actually, you didn't tell her what she felt. You posited a theory about why she may have felt a certain way involving what else she felt. Normally I'd think this distinction is pedantic but your MC is all about pedantic nuances so the distinction does matter. As an adult and again not a child or mentally handicapped individual who can easily be swayed to agree with whatever, it was up to her whether she thought you were right or wrong with that statement. But oddly enough, it sounds like your MC didn't even give her room to respond and your WW was smart to go along with it probably because she knew any response was going to make her look even worse to you.

Remarkably, post session, my WW had sympathy for me on how it went. Her recognition was the only positive. But in-session WW went with this flow of feelings, absent of any description is somehow central.

No, it's not remarkable in the slightest. It's right out of the cheater's handbook under chapter 9: How to Fake Your Way Through MC Without Looking Like the Bad Guy. Your WW is going to do this to anyone and everyone who knows about her betrayal of you. She will minimize her faults and maximize yours in an attempt to form a correlation and justification between the two. And then she'll reassure you in private that it's not how she really feels and she's still remorseful and onboard with R. This is a basic ACTIONS vs WORDS problem. Her WORDS tell you that your feelings are valid and she's sympathetic but her ACTIONS by allowing the MC to talk down to you in support of her AND by agreeing with the MC at the end of the session say that she still thinks her feelings are just as if not more valid even when she can't offer any supporting evidence the same way you can. And trust me - as a fellow infidelity and abuse survivor - if someone is mistreating you, you have examples. You can point to the thing they did or said that made you feel intimidated.

Is this a Venus vs Mars type thing, how women view feelings vs men?

Absolutely not. It's a difference between dishonest and honest people. It's the difference between manipulative and sincere people. Your WW knows damn well if you did something intimidating or not. She's simply throwing it out to her benefit during MC to muddy the waters and pull you down to her level a little bit. She's paving the way for you to look responsible for her cheating in some shape or form. You can go over to many threads of betrayed women in MC with wayward men who are experiencing this EXACT same problem. It has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with a few key issues when it comes to infidelity and MC:

- The fact that MC is aimed at mending the marriage and not the individuals. A good MC will acknowledge that not all marriages can or should be mended and will explore whether it even makes sense for the two individuals to stay married but this is RARE. Probably in part because no one looking to save their marriage with MC wants to be told that their marriage can't be saved AND because there's no repeat business in your clients getting a D. Your MC is definitely not questioning whether continuing the M is in either of your's best interest and is instead looking to form a team between you two which will include getting you to take some responsibility for the cheating. Think of it this way - team failures often have blame to go around for everyone in the team just like team successes. This can and does make sense in a typical marriage where each person has valid and real gripes about the other but make absolutely no sense when one person has dropped a bomb on the marriage, betrayed their spouse, and refuses to play by the rules required to rebuild trust.

- Most MCs have very little to no experience with infidelity outside of whatever the hell they've been exposed to with people they know and TV/movies so their views about infidelity don't match up with reality. That's why your MC is acting like your WW's cheating is akin to you not being the best listener or wording something you said poorly. They don't have a clue the amount of damage your WW's actions have done to you or the marriage and they are NOT likely to educate themselves or change their mind on that perspective. They will probably think you're overreacting even if you are painfully honest about how you're feeling.

IF your WW was remorseful, she would stand up for you. She wouldn't allow the MC to make excuses for you. She would have answered the damn question about what she felt instead of allowing the MC to dodge the question for her. She'd recommend and/or agree with finding someone else to see for MC who were more sympathetic and fair to you. These are things that have been done by WSes as told by themselves or BSes on SI and not more mythical unicorn crap based on some ideal that no WS could possibly achieve so don't brush it off as unreasonable to expect of your WW.

Something easy you can do to know where you stand with your WW today - ask your WW if she wants to keep seeing this MC or someone new. Tell her you want to see someone new of your choosing or drop MC altogether until you can be reassured that it will be a safe and supportive environment for YOU. If she resists the idea that you need a new MC so that BOTH of you feel heard, validated, and ideally one who holds her accountable for her bad behavior, then you know that she's not really invested in R but instead rugsweeping at your expense. If she encourages you to keep going to MC now aware how it makes you feel, then you know that she IS intentionally and willfully manipulating you to stay in the marriage even when it's harmful for you to do so. If she agrees to change or drop this MC and postpone, you may have something to work with towards R and her blatant going-with-the-flow, while still very toxic to R, may be born of convenience and not really understanding what to do about it instead of further disrespect and getting her way which is potentially something changeable. Manipulation is not and if she either refuses to change MC or pushes for you to keep going to this MC, R isn't going to work.

"I enjoyed porn, sex, and EA like a "single person""

I think SA is often used as a crutch. Not saying it isn't legitimate in some people, but it has become a go-to "out" for far too many wayward spouses.

Your WW lives right up to what we've observed here for a long time (but which some like to deny in a bizarre fashion) which is that the vast majority of waywards:

1. Have a distorted life philosophy and worldview that allows for adultery.

2. Often have a toxic toolkit of neuroses they are carrying around that allows for adultery without much, if any, remorse.

3. Want to cheat, like cheating, often seek it out, enjoy the thrill, enjoy the sex, do lots of sexual activities they won't do with their faithful partner, are arrogant enough to think they won't get caught, and regard their faithful partners as convenient backstops for them to live a single sexual lifestyle (this is why your WW "likes" your marriage; it's convenient and secure for her).

4. The chances for even a one-time adulterer doing it again are actually somewhat high.

5. In the case of serial cheaters, the chances of doing it again and again and again are all but certain.

Your wife is being very blunt with you. You should listen to her, watch her actions and act accordingly. In this case, her words and actions are lining up as someone who has unilaterally accorded themselves the sexual benefits of an open marriage. You just didn't know you were in an open marriage.

But you are. I take you don't like that and don't wish to be in an open marriage. Your WW is not going to stop. She'll go through these motions and you'll be telling us about another DDAY in six months to a year.

So if you don't like being in an open marriage and your wife is unlikely to stop, what's your best option in the real world?

Hopefully that highlights it for you that you share absolutely NO responsibility for her feelings of intimidation and discomfort. Hell, even if you were pushy and angry - guess what - that's a NORMAL and expected response to being cheated on. Even if you did sit her down and demand answers for a long period of time - what the hell did she expect when she went out with X number of OM and then continued to TT you? Her whining about intimidation and being questioned is like a murderer complaining about being detained and interrogated by the police!

Nekonamida highlights something my WW did - my WW did this exact same thing. I think it's probably a pretty common phenomenon. It's infuriating, especially if you're not being intimidating, not yelling, not threatening, not name-calling -- but are asking lots and lots of questions and if you are clearly (and rightfully) angry.

One more time: This is a clever, somewhat subtle version of DARVO.

Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender (DARVO)

If you haven't read about DARVO, do so now.

Learn how to spot it. Your thinking will clarify as you see that's what your WW is repeatedly doing.

DARVO is a tool of narcissists. It is a powerful form of gaslighting. Your WW is gaslighting you here. It's psychic warfare against you.

Start being alert to that.

She's being asked to *GASP* REFLECT and CHANGE into the wife she was pretending to be all this time!

Call me skeptical and a cynic, but I don't think your WW has what it takes to reconcile with you, and she doesn't have what it takes to be a good wife to you. There are a lot of other fine, good, noble honorable women in the world who can.

That's why your MC is acting like your WW's cheating is akin to you not being the best listener or wording something you said poorly.

Incidentally, I'm also a fan of deploying logic in these situations because it can help spot the word games, mind games, triangulation tactics and crazymaking gambits that WS's like to play.

One thing you can ask yourself when your WW throws out some gobsmacking conversation stopper, accusation, bizarre observation and the like is whether this stupid jaw dropping thing she just said is in fact a logical fallacy.

Almost always, it will be a logical fallacy. You can bring these kinds of games to a grinding halt by calling them out: "That's a straw man argument," "you're being intellectually dishonest" "that's an ad hominem attack on me and it's illegitimate on its face" etc.

I started doing this calmly with my WW. She got angry, because that's what they do. But she also stopped that particular tactic, moved on to another one until I called that and so on. Eventually she stopped most of the games.

I don't think it's been called out here so I wanted to call this out: In addition to DARVO and trying to make herself the victim, what your WW is doing here is called a false equivalency.

Often WS's will grow resentful that you "snooped." This is a great example of another false equivalency.

one way of quickly spotting a false equivalency is framing what your WW just said in terms of a proposition: "the sky is blue; that chair is the same color blue; the sky and chair are the same." This proposition is obviously false.

You can memorize this "sky is blue" formulation to stress test the words coming out of your WW's mouth. I'm willing to bet you will start spotting much of what she is saying as a set of false equivalencies.

Other common fallacies WS's use:

1. Ad hominem attacks (example: "Thumos you're so blunt in your writing about adultery. You're a man. It's obvious you must hate women.")

2. False dichotomies (an either/or proposition that ignores a third, fourth possibility and so on). Example: "You're getting divorced. Either you don’t understand how to properly handle reconciliation ... or you must not be a very forgiving person."

3. Circular reasoning (Simply repeating an argument instead of actually proving it) Example: "This website is based on reconciliation. If you have a very high bar of quality for reconciliation, you must be against it and you're insulting the founders."

4. Naturalistic fallacy ("adultery is acceptable because humans aren't naturally monogamous" - this is a dubious claim in any case)

5. Appeal to people - ad populum - ("So many people commit adultery, so what's the big deal?" or "so many people here say reconciliation is results in a stronger and better marriage, who are you to assert otherwise?")

6. Strawman argument ("So I guess I'm a whore to you now?") -- positing an extreme statement or argument you never made so they can easily knock down this "straw man"

7. Red herring fallacy (throwing out a "red herring" to throw hounds off the scent). Your WW is doing this repeatedly, throwing out an argument or statement which seems relevant but which isn't.

8. Tu Quoque Fallacy ('you too'). Examples: "you've looked at porn before, so how dare you judge me." "you were promiscuous as a young man, how dare you judge me" or "I've seen you looking at other women, so how dare you judge me" - these are also examples of false equivalency.

Another example of this is something seen regularly on SI, in which a poster will make passive aggressive thought policing remarks such as "Well, you've said you're getting divorced, so you can't possibly give this individual good advice or speak to bona fides for authentic reconciliation."

9. Appeal to authority ("our marriage counselor says we don't communicate well" or "Esther Perel says affairs are journeys of discovery and empowerment")

10. Appeal to pity or appeal to emotion ("I had a bad childhood" or "I'm a sex addict" or "I was in the fog when I said all those terrible things, so obviously I didn't mean them." or "yes, I've slept with multiple men but I really want our marriage and I love you so much. Don't abandon me.")

11. The genetic fallacy (trying to debunk an argument based on its origins rather than dealing with the substance of the argument itself). Example: "Your friend cheated, so he can't possibly give you good advice about our situation"

12. The middle ground. "You think extra-marital sex is wrong. Let's agree to disagree."

13. Motte and bailey fallacy - This is harder to spot. It's when an adulterer "conflates two positions which share similarities, one modest and easy to defend (the "motte") and one much more controversial (the "bailey")... then advances the controversial position, but when challenged, they insist that they are only advancing the more modest position." Example: "Monogamy is a social construct. Polyamory is normal and healthy."

The motte is monogamy is a human construct imposed on humans, while the bailey is that polyamory is perfectly normal.

"Look, I'm not saying I want to be polyamorous, just that monogamy is a social construct. Surely you can agree with that."

And then once you agree to that, they begin working on advancing the more extreme proposition because you allowed them to take and stand on new ground.

13. "I'm entitled to my opinion." You can usually tell when someone has lost the argument when they retreat to this stance. (Example: "My opinion is I'm not rugsweeping. I'm entitled to think that. Piss off.")

14. Relativist fallacy - "That's your truth, not my truth." or "That may be true for you, but it is not true for me." One sees this all the time in discussions on SI, unfortunately.

15. Sunk costs fallacy - and this is the one you are stuck in yourself, Apparition. You believe that you've invested so much in this marriage, you have to keep trying, even if it's obviously a fruitless effort.

Hope this is helpful.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:20 PM, December 19th (Saturday)]

One of the reasons I felt okay about the MC was C said the affair was not my fault, I did nothing to cause it, and it wasn't the fault of the marriage. But in actual MC, I'm not seeing this play out, there appears to be a "all feelings are valid" thing happening.

After having read more about what is up with your MC, I find this MORE concerning. It says that your MC is essentially playing a game with you and your WW. They're telling you what you want to hear. They're telling your WW what she wants to hear. They're choosing sides in joint sessions based on who they think will be more likely not to bolt and run afterwards. And I want you to know - this is normal. This is a tactic that can and does work when you're dealing with regular marriage problems. You want the "bad guy" or aggressor in the marriage to feel like you're on their side before you drop some truth bombs on them and ask them to look more critically at their own behavior and how they've impacted their spouse and marriage. That's why the MC is telling you to be patient.

But as we've seen time and time again, this strategy does not work well when it comes to infidelity. Likely because:

- It implicitly condones the WS's cheating and reinforces justifications they've been using for months/years in order to make the A seem "not that bad" or like a normal response to whatever their BS was doing.

- WSes who've been validated and condoned by the MC don't respond well when the rug has been pulled out from under them. They're not likely to reflect and ask themselves why this change in tone is happening and use it as an opportunity for team building with their BS. They're likely to get very angry and will refuse to participate. That's because the parts of them that are broken - entitlement, selfishness, self serving thinking and logic - have not been addressed. They've been empowered and encouraged by the MC so of course the WS is going to write off the MC for "taking the BS's side" instead of turning inwards and attempting to understand their spouse like a healthy person would in this situation.

I actually have some experience now with ICs who can hold a client accountable and validate their feelings at the same time which looks like this: It's okay for your WW to have felt uncomfortable, intimidated, or whatever from having a conversation about her As. Naturally most people do even if you're asking the questions as calmly and politely as possible because no one likes to be the bad guy. No one likes to have all of their worst deeds dragged out and examined one-by-one. However, it is NOT okay for your WW to use this as a reason or excuse to stop talking to you about it, to stop telling the truth about it, or to take the focus off of what she did when confronted with your pain over it. It's okay if your WW did feel resentful for things not going her way. That can be frustrating for anyone. However it is NOT okay for your WW to use that resentment as a justification for cheating on you or as an example of how your bad marriage contributed to her cheating. If your WW did feel like you weren't listening to her and that you were not taking her into consideration in aspects of your marriage, by all means that too will be addressed and examined at a later date AFTER the A has been sufficiently addressed on your end. It will be paramount in the "building a new marriage" section of R but she needs to get there by understanding the impact her actions had first. It's a bit like arguing over the color of the drapes while your house is on fire. Her gripes about what you did pre-A ain't gonna matter when she doesn't have a marriage to gripe about.

See what I did there? I validated her feelings and didn't tell her what she was feeling BUT I also held her accountable and pointed out how her choices and actions based on valid feelings are what's wrong here and what needs to change. And I can guarantee you that it's not what your MC is doing because your MC doesn't seem to have a clue the difference between validating feelings vs validating actions. They appear to be the same thing according to the MC which means when your MC validates your WW's feelings, her responses and bad choices following them will also be validated whether the MC intends to do that or not. Your MC doesn't understand the correlation between validating pre-A issues and justifications used by your WW for her As. The MC doesn't understand that without spelling it out for your WW, ANY amount of validation looks like the MC is condoning your WW and saying that you do hold some fault in her cheating if her cheating was in part because of something you did or didn't do. Your MC may genuinely believe that you are not responsible for her cheating but they're doing a piss poor job of communicating that to your WW and trying to retroactively flip the script on her later IS NOT going to go over well or have the results you need to see for R.

This is why so many people are telling you to drop MC. At minimum, consider not seeing this particular counselor anymore because they are simply not qualified or experienced enough to help you. They will likely do more damage to any chance at R than they already have. You're not going to get the results you're looking for. And that too is why you'll see a whole bunch of posters who have a story similar to this in their history who are either unhappy or working on D.

I started doing this calmly with my WW. She got angry, because that's what they do. But she also stopped that particular tactic, moved on to another one until I called that and so on. Eventually she stopped most of the games.

It's amazing how quickly a WS will suddenly stop doing these things when it's clear that they're not getting the response that they hoped for. It's almost as if by design these interactions are meant to get you to act a certain way that's advantageous for them and not great for you. Looks like a clear attempt at manipulation to me.

Also, good on you Thumos for calling it out and putting an end to it.

Thumos that was a brilliantly contextual exposition of logical fallacies. I might use that to teach my college-aged kids.

Apparition - I hope you’ll strongly consider this as well. Pulling for you!

Please post Thumos permanently somewhere for future reference for everyone.

Disturbingly, your wife is in to porn.

Studies have shown porn is very damaging/dangerous.

Do a search on it.

People who watch Porn, vicariously participate in the porn acts.

It’s interesting that most people aren’t aware of the dangers/dynamics of internal participation in porn.

Cheers

[This message edited by ronjs at 6:07 AM, December 20th (Sunday)]

Thank You Thumos, the fallacies are all very familiar coming from WW.. I appreciate the attention to detail and specific A examples for me.

Today was a big day, I decided to take my needs to written form, very short,, and with very common needs/boundaries: empathy, transparency, etc. It went badly. I realized my WW is a counter puncher. WW does not need to actually be attacked, but if she feels attacked, if its about A, my needs, my issues, or is uncomfortable she will attack and turn it about me. I tested this a few times with unimportant to me, but touchy topics. She attacked and turned it about me. Example would be, Me. “You hurt me with X words.”. WW “You hurt me with Y words!”. Me, “Okay, acknowledge Y.”. We talk about Y until topic is exhausted, then I go, “Now, about X words that hurt me.”. WW, “ You hurt me with Z words!”

It was exhausting for me when I saw the circle, so I point out this circle of counter punch. Anyone care to guess WW response? Only wrong answers accepted.

WW said today she saw an attorney. WW said she wishes sje had a BF to move in with. WW said she didn’t want me at her families Christmas party. Understatement: I’m sensing she’s not ready to crawl through glass for me.

The list of needs was “accepted” bitterly as being all about me and nothing about her, that I was a jailer, and she’d done it all anyway. I specifically said I also wanted to be attentive to her needs, she said she didn’t have a list, it was unreasonable that I “make” her think like me. Apparently lists of personal needs are forced conformity.

MC, R, just doesn’t seem in the cards for me. The doors are slamming shut and I’m seeing only one path left to me.

MC, R, just doesn’t seem in the cards for me. The doors are slamming shut and I’m seeing only one path left to me.

It's incredibly hard to shut off your love, respect, and caring for someone.

She is so far ahead of you on that road that when you try to engage with her in any kind of reasonable, respectful, or loving way you are at a complete disadvantage. Because she does not give a shit.

The day you "shut it down" and turn it around from her "wounded husband trying to make it work" to serving her with papers, you will see the entire dynamic shift.

The way things are going it looks like she is going to serve you papers.

And by the way, I am not saying you need to rush out and make this mental switch; it's easy to divorce other people's spouses on the internet - in real life it is much harder to do for oneself - but I don't think she is giving you any choice.

realized my WW is a counter puncher. WW does not need to actually be attacked, but if she feels attacked, if its about A, my needs, my issues, or is uncomfortable she will attack and turn it about me. I tested this a few times with unimportant to me, but touchy topics. She attacked and turned it about me. Example would be, Me. “You hurt me with X words.”. WW “You hurt me with Y words!”. Me, “Okay, acknowledge Y.”. We talk about Y until topic is exhausted, then I go, “Now, about X words that hurt me.”. WW, “ You hurt me with Z words!”

this is all DARVO

WW said today she saw an attorney. WW said she wishes sje had a BF to move in with. WW said she didn’t want me at her families Christmas party. Understatement: I’m sensing she’s not ready to crawl through glass for me.

The list of needs was “accepted” bitterly as being all about me and nothing about her, that I was a jailer, and she’d done it all anyway. I specifically said I also wanted to be attentive to her needs, she said she didn’t have a list, it was unreasonable that I “make” her think like me. Apparently lists of personal needs are forced conformity.

complete lack of remorse. no empathy. no repentance. see an atty and file before she does. expose to her family.

it was the best of marriages until you started demanding authenticity and honesty.

Get a better life where you live not by lies, where you live authentically, where you live free.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:58 AM, December 21st (Monday)]

WW said she wishes sje had a BF to move in with. WW said she didn’t want me at her families Christmas party.

That is who she is she is not going to change, expose to her family immediately and send proof she cannot deny. She is disgusting.

All that cheating and not even a long term BF who will have her, so sad too bad kick her out.

Going to MC is like throwing salt in the ocean.

I admit I have a hard time understanding threads like this that go on forever and ever and IMHO neither seem to be heading towards D or R. I have said this about a million times: The initial goal isn’t to divorce nor reconcile, but to get out of infidelity. Frankly it seems like you are walking in circles that might eventually be spiraling towards either R or D, but still taking a mile to progress maybe a yard along that path.

WW said today she saw an attorney. WW said she wishes sje had a BF to move in with. WW said she didn’t want me at her families Christmas party.

Sometimes it’s better to understand the message rather than the words. With the two above sentences your wife is stating she doesn’t want this marriage. Remember that nothing forced you into this marriage and there is NOTHING forcing either of you to remain in this marriage. Your reply to the above two statements:

You are totally free to go find a boyfriend to move in with. Nothing is forcing you to be or remain my wife.

And

I’m OK with not being at your families Christmas party.

And then you go along and polish your shoes or wax your car or clean out that stuff that gather in your belly-button.

You stop all talks. You no longer slip notes about how X hurt your feelings or how this or that might be this or that. You stop all MC and all work at “saving” this marriage because all those statements from her can be reworded into:

I don’t want to be married (WW said today she saw an attorney.)

I don’t want to be married (WW said she wishes sje had a BF to move in with.)

I don’t want to be married (WW said she didn’t want me at her families Christmas party.)

And there is nothing wrong about that. Once that decision is on the table there really isn’t a need to get into the why and how and whats. It becomes implementation time rather than contemplation time.