SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Great post by Thumos re fallacies .

Really wish your wife would finally give you something to work with but so far she is the typical serial cheater , rather dismal prognosis i am afraid . To her credit at least she seems to know herself well and is not giving you any false hope .

Im sure you know that your only good choice is to move on and I suggest from the bottom of my heart that you should just go to IC and try to understand how to best let go of someone who clearly has nothing to offer you.

[This message edited by siracha at 11:38 AM, December 21st (Monday)]

Really wish your wife would finally give you something to work with

What could be clearer than:

WW said today she saw an attorney. WW said she wishes sje had a BF to move in with. WW said she didn’t want me at her families Christmas party.

That‘s a lot to work with IMHO.

Entirely agree with you Bigger , dismal prognosis for the marriage , nothing left to salvage .

I believe op wanted otherwise hence the “ i wish something different could have happened for you ( R) but she gave you nothing you could work with “

Does her family know she is a serial cheater? I bet they already know this about her. But I can’t remember if you’ve exposed to her immediate family. Otherwise they might be confused as to why you’re not at the Christmas party.

OP was given pages and pages of advice, and just chose to ignore and go his own way. Believing that if they just jumped a bit higher, paid a little more, ran a little faster that he could himself save this marriage.

He was told not to go MC and went anyways. Its pretty obvious that the chances of him resurrecting this marriage from its death is damn near death, not because of his lack of effort, but because he has failed to listen to the collective advice given here from the getgo. There isn't anything left here, and help should be given to other posters that are willing to take the wisdom from posters. Just reading what OP wrote about in his experience with the MC is enough to make one sick, but he'll probably go back for more.

We've seen this play out, and many times before and after. The chance to save the marriage and get a hold of things before spiraling is really at the beginning after D-day. The pick me dance, here and elsewhere just doesn't pay. Rather than pay any consequence, the WW is again treated with soft gloves that did not work during the marriage, and it won't now. Apparition is the only one left rowing this canoe, and he's unwilling to acknowledge that no matter how fast and hard he paddles, this one is going over the cliff.

So the personal result from my WWs latest statements and initial poor receipt of the wish list of needs was my hopelessness. Which meant D was brought up by me as the only thing left for me to do. When D was brought up I was convinced, truly convinced, that was the only path left. Also, she was way ahead of me on figuring out this path. What was I left to work with? There was one person in R. So I conveyed as much. At one point she said, "You're right, it's time, let's talk about D." I responded, "Nothing to talk about, D is a decision, not a conversation. R has been rejected by you, so D is what's left. It's not a talk." WW's reaction was the same as when she'd been caught with damning information: total shock. Then came her depression. Then WW came back telling me how reasonable a list I provided and how she doesn't want to do MC that doesn't deal with A's effect on me and her accountability.

Not sure if this is the often referred to HopeIum or if its a genuine turn. I haven't been provided anything to be genuinely hopeful about. I can look back at the thread and all those that suggested a REAL 180 and D, and those provided the best path to accountability (or not, but resolution). I suppose I should wait to see if this is real or a ploy for something else. I'm suspicious, but I WANT to be hopeful.

Apparition, this just seems to be a change of tactic to me. She can put you on hold. Have you heard of hoovering. Hoovering, named after the vacuum cleaner is about being sucked back in.

She's seen a lawyer. She has told you very explicitly she doesn't want to be married to you. When they tell you and show you who they are believe them.

You seem to be drowning but grasping at foam bubbles thinking they will save you. Nero, here is your fiddle.

There isn't anything left here, and help should be given to other posters that are willing to take the wisdom from posters.

Failure to take good advice is not the same as a failure to respect the advice. I indeed may be a lost cause, I don’t refute my solo efforts at R, nor my own failed resolve. I have struggled in vain. The choice to struggle at in ill advised R, despite good advice, and good information pointing to the futility is 100% on me and I’d ask it not be taken by anyone as my lack of respect (or even belief that the advice was not correct - I believe much of the advice has been sound).

I indeed may be a lost cause

Nonsense.

You're dealing with one of the most traumatic and painful events anyone can experience in their lives.

Offer grace to yourself, Apparition. Patience. One foot in front of the other.

Not sure if this is the often referred to HopeIum or if its a genuine turn.

Actions, not words. Pretend you are watching a silent movie and watch her ACTIONS.

I can't in good conscience recommend you continue down the rabbit hole with a serial adulterer. Abuse piled on top of more abuse. Mind movies times infinity.

When I confronted my WW on DDAY I told her it felt like I'd had my heart ripped out, I'd been stabbed in the back and had my balls chopped off by her all at the same time.

And that was an accurate description of how I felt. That was for a 3 month EA/PA with one AP.

I can't imagine the depth of pain finding out your WW was an adulterer in her previous marriage, then finding out she's slept with multiple men in your marriage. And enjoys it.

But I do understand you can't switch your love off for someone overnight.

Have you considered just a therapeutic separation of 30 days, and getting away from her for physical and mental space?

Another poster here, AHGuy, did this over the past couple of months and it gave him tremendous clarity and perspective and allowed everything to settle way down so he could think.

Please go see a lawyer. It's really much easier than I thought. Costs about $250 for a consult. You can chat about the entire situation and talk about what the divorce process will look like for you. You will feel better about it, I promise.

As others have said, your WW is about ten steps ahead of you and has been the entire time. Start catching up and do an end run around her. Don't wait any longer.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:14 PM, December 21st (Monday)]

The difference between desperate flailing and real change is duration. You can't tell immediately.

I'm not going to pass judgment on whether this is desperate flailing or change. It's your life. Your WW. Just, keep watching.

She is a serial cheater that just isn't getting with the program. I suggest filing for divorce now. It will either get her attention or it won't. At this point, can you ever imagine a future with her where she won't cheat? Can you imagine a time where you can trust her? Do you want to be her parole officer for the rest of your life? Maybe when she is 80 she will knock it off. Given what I have read, her fidelity just isn't in the cards. Maybe that isn't so critical to you. If that is the case, then your approach makes a little sense. Otherwise, it's time to drop the hammer. I am a BS who divorced his wife after I discovered her second affair at the 10-year mark.

[This message edited by src9043 at 6:19 PM, December 21st (Monday)]

HalfTime2017

OP was given pages and pages of advice, and just chose to ignore and go his own way. Believing that if they just jumped a bit higher, paid a little more, ran a little faster that he could himself save this marriage.

He was told not to go MC and went anyways. Its pretty obvious that the chances of him resurrecting this marriage from its death is damn near death, not because of his lack of effort, but because he has failed to listen to the collective advice given here from the getgo. There isn't anything left here, and help should be given to other posters that are willing to take the wisdom from posters. Just reading what OP wrote about in his experience with the MC is enough to make one sick, but he'll probably go back for more.

We've seen this play out, and many times before and after. The chance to save the marriage and get a hold of things before spiraling is really at the beginning after D-day. The pick me dance, here and elsewhere just doesn't pay. Rather than pay any consequence, the WW is again treated with soft gloves that did not work during the marriage, and it won't now. Apparition is the only one left rowing this canoe, and he's unwilling to acknowledge that no matter how fast and hard he paddles, this one is going over the cliff.

I understand your sentiment but maybe a little too harsh on Apparition...

Apparition

So the personal result from my WWs latest statements and initial poor receipt of the wish list of needs was my hopelessness. Which meant D was brought up by me as the only thing left for me to do. When D was brought up I was convinced, truly convinced, that was the only path left. Also, she was way ahead of me on figuring out this path. What was I left to work with? There was one person in R. So I conveyed as much. At one point she said, "You're right, it's time, let's talk about D." I responded, "Nothing to talk about, D is a decision, not a conversation. R has been rejected by you, so D is what's left. It's not a talk." WW's reaction was the same as when she'd been caught with damning information: total shock. Then came her depression. Then WW came back telling me how reasonable a list I provided and how she doesn't want to do MC that doesn't deal with A's effect on me and her accountability.

Not sure if this is the often referred to HopeIum or if its a genuine turn. I haven't been provided anything to be genuinely hopeful about. I can look back at the thread and all those that suggested a REAL 180 and D, and those provided the best path to accountability (or not, but resolution). I suppose I should wait to see if this is real or a ploy for something else. I'm suspicious, but I WANT to be hopeful.

Yes, you're on the hopium. She's fucking with you. You kinda called her bluff and she backed off real quick.

Until she cheats on your some more and/or drops papers on you when you least expect it.

Serve her the papers and see what happens then.

I suppose I should wait to see if this is real or a ploy for something else.

Why? Wait for what? This is practically axiomatic. It's a ploy.

I'm suspicious, but I WANT to be hopeful.

Why? Hopeful for what?

Don't you look at her every morning now and think about how she schemed to have sex with multiple men, sharing their genital microbiomes with you, having their DNA inside her? Is there a day this thought doesn't occur to you? Do you think a day will ever come when it won't?

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:47 PM, December 21st (Monday)]

Apparition, I don’t think I’ve posted on your thread but I have been keeping up to date.

This must be exhausting for you. Your comment about one person can R a relationship is bang on. Your WW was likely being honest when she said she said all that crap about wanting a BF to move in with, the Christmas party, etc. This is probably the most honest she has been with you. It hurts, absolutely does, but she has shown you who she really is. I’m a firm believer in ignoring talk and focusing on action. She has done lots of talking but no action.

And, she is absolutely hoovering you. Once she sees you are taking action, her stance changes. She will continue to do this, likely until she finds that BF to move in with. Classic monkey branching.

Try this out, do a hard 180, let her know 100% you are headed to D, start taking time for you, doing what you want to, and see what her reaction is like. I would bet she would start to show minor efforts to test the waters. She is doing the absolute minimum.

My WW was the same, but she wanted to stay married, so her “efforts” appeared to be honest, but once I started to scratch the surface, her actions we paper thin.

Not until I demanded what I needed to see happen, did I see firm steps and action from her. She later admitted to me that had I not pushed her, she wouldn’t have addressed her issues. She said it was one of the best things to happen to her and she thanked me for it, and for not giving up. She couldn’t bring herself to dig into her issues as much as she needed to. It took the prospect of losing everything, the shame that comes with A’s, all of it, to force her into action. I really wished she had taken it as seriously as I did!

At one point she said, "You're right, it's time, let's talk about D." I responded, "Nothing to talk about, D is a decision, not a conversation. R has been rejected by you, so D is what's left. It's not a talk." WW's reaction was the same as when she'd been caught with damning information: total shock. Then came her depression. Then WW came back telling me how reasonable a list I provided and how she doesn't want to do MC that doesn't deal with A's effect on me and her accountability.

You are like a fish, and she is the angler.

She loves the thrill of the fight, letting you go (hope), then reeling you back in (DARVO tactics et al), and her main goal is to land you after you get too tired, and then she will have what she wants; a H that is too resigned, and will give her stability, conform to her wants, and maintian a perfect image, etc.

Going to be a bit blunt here:

Apparition, you are starting to get into the wayward mindset, in that you are fooling yourself that all will be well. You have been given great advice and insight, but you are still making excuses to stay on.

You have been told straight to your face that your WW does not want you anymore (telling you that she does not want you are her family's X'mas party), seeing an attorney... ) but to keep you on as a walking ATM, and for appearance sake only.

Yet here you are, always making up excuses to stay, and clinging on to every scrap of Hope that she throws to you. Your false bravado of saying that the opportunity of R is closing, and yet, it will never close because you do not really want it to close.

Ultimately, YOU are keeping yourself miserable. You KNOW what you should be doing, but seem to be reluctant to take that step.

For your own sake, focus. As Bigger had posted, you should focus on getting out of Infidelity, but you seem to have made a subconscious decision to R, and you are taking the actions to force that outcome.

If you are focused on getting out of Infidelity, you would not even be entertaining any theatrics from your WW. You are still letting her try and control you, instead of just getting up, start walking, and it is up to the WS to see of they want to follow. Instead, you seem to be cajoling her to follow you. Stop that now.

Apparition, everyone talking about actions vs words is right. So let's analyze this.

Best case scenario: WW did not actually want a D which means she was lying and manipulating you into dropping your R demands by acting like she was. She didn't expect you to be strong and smart enough to hold your line in the sand hence her shock. She now has no choice but to do what you say or at least pretend to in order to stay married to you.

Worst case scenario: Since she's been to a lawyer and has done some of the leg work of D, she knows that she still needs to line up some of her ducks before she can get the best settlement out of it. Her shock was the realization that she can't talk you into giving her more time. She plans on pretending to R while working on D and perhaps finding that BF to move in with.

I honestly don't think any of us know for sure which one she is but think back to that best case scenario - it's really not that good, is it? It shows that your WW AT BEST is still comfortable lying and manipulating. It still shows that AT BEST your WW heavily prefers rugsweeping to R and doesn't seem to really care about how you feel just what's going to happen to herself if you leave. And that may not be just monetary either - possibly being exposed as a serial cheater, disappointment and humiliation from friends and family, navigating custody, no longer having a free and reliable babysitter making dating harder (especially true if she's pushing for full custody and thinks you're getting every other weekend), etc. D is a big change and can be messy. Can you work with that? The lack of empathy, lack of proactiveness, and general demeanor of doing just enough if you threaten her? It's not likely but it may be more likely IF she actually does what's on your list without you reminding, encouraging, or pressuring her to. And she does them ASAP.

I agree with Thumos about the lawyer. You don't have to file right away but you NEED to be as prepared as possible for D assuming she was telling the truth about seeing a lawyer and wanting to start the process. She could change her mind and go file tomorrow just as quickly as she changed her mind about R. She's completely unpredictable and you can't take the chance that she's blowing hot air about her plans. And even if she backs off about it, D laws are region specific and time sensitive. What if you decide to R but she either doesn't follow through or cheats again a year from now. Is that going to affect how much she is entitled to in D? Will that make a significant difference with regards to your retirement? What if you need a year of separation before you can file? You have options. Even if you don't D, you have options. A legal separation on paper, a post nup, getting a D on paper but acting as if married, etc. I have seen quite a few BSes choose some of those alternatives and in cases where their WS cheated again, it really paid off so don't be too hasty to drop everything at this stage. Protect yourself first and foremost.

Also, could you tell us what's on your list?

It would be helpful for us to have a basic idea of what you need from her in order to give our opinions on if she's stepping up to the plate or not. For instance, if your list says she must give you full access to her phone, email, social media accounts, and lets you run a data recovery program on it, then it's a bad sign if she has not given you access yet. The appropriate time to do so would have been as soon as she said your list was reasonable and that she wanted to R.

If you haven't spoken to an attorney yet, you should.

I feel for you. I am in a similar situation. I held out hope for a long time. I kept holding on to that tiny, thin thread of hope...but my WW never fully came around. I knew it in my gut and I feel like you may have the same gut feeling.

It doesn't hurt to talk to an attorney, it's not divorce at that point and it's not "filing."

I reached out to an attorney so that I could be ready to go and I am glad I did. I meet with her today at 12:30 and will ask her to file ASAP.

I wish you the best. But you can't R with one person doing all the work. She has to "lean in" and I think you know whether she is leaning in or not. If not, well...