SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Paco, thank you for taking the time to find the thread. I went page by page, can't find a search, so I hope it didn't take you too much time.

I read it through and it is an insightful read. I'm taking things a day at a time right now.

i read the 1st and every 5th page till the last page.

not disagreeing with OH, because everyman has his own

position on what deal breaker is.

but i think his WW could of been a candidate for recovery.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 8:16 AM, December 15th (Tuesday)]

Old truck are you referring to Ohfor’s WW with this statement:

but i think his WW could of been a candidate for recovery.

If so, I’m curious why you would say that.

She had over a year to begin working on herself while Ohfor fell into a deep enough depression that he was plotting to kill himself, and apparently did nothing meaningful to fix herself during that time.

Am I being unfair to her? I don’t think so considering that she kept an additional AP (the neighborhood lothario when she was a SAHM) a secret during that time, and tried to blame shift the end of the M to Ohfor when he said he was done (she actually asked if he was going to throw away the M for a snog in the toilet, unfuckingbelieveable). Or that she was picking up guys in the hotel bar once he gave her the boot? Then she tried to seduce him before the divorce hearing. What about any of that suggests she learned her lesson and was a good candidate for R?

OldTruck

but i think his WW could of been a candidate for recovery.

No. Whatever she did was the bare minimum for R. To summerize R should not look like that.

Doesn't matter if you think his WW was a good candidate for recovery. What matters is if he thinks she is and, even if she is, whether he thinks he can spend the rest of his life with her in a loving, committed marital relationship. He couldn't. She destroyed that possibility. End of story.

i fixed a big typo, i removed the first "every".

i did not remember their whole story. though from

what i gleamed i made my statement.

people are putting words in my mouth. i did not

say OH was wrong to divorce.

i will go further to say even if his WW was a FWW on the

same level as Mrswondering, hikingitout, or ownitingnow

does not mean that OH or any BH would be wrong to

divorce their WW.

these three have shown that they were worth the effort to

recover with. though that worth does not mean infidelity

still cannot be a deal breaker for some BH.

The thing I remember most about Ohfor’s story is his post about his diagnosis. He said he ignored the early signs of his cancer because he attributed them to the stress of his WW’s infidelity. Can’t say for sure, but in his case infidelity may have cost him at the very least more time in this world.

My takeaway from Ohfor's story is that he made every effort and ultimately the change necessary from his spouse for R was not done. An entire year since D day, remorse, empathy, transparency, and the other ingredients that make up R were not done by Ohfor's WW. Ohfor's WW affair choices did not end the work toward R, her post affair actions ended the opportunity Ohfor offered the WW for R. Ultimately, even if his WW had been an ideal R spouse, perhaps Ohfor could not have healed. Perhaps the damage would have been too much to heal with her in his life. There is nothing wrong with that - the offer for R is not unconditional nor is it a guaranty.

Regardless, Ohfor did not get to see what could have happened had his WW made best efforts for change and R. My point is, both parties get to choose at any time during R that R is not what they want. Perhaps that doesn't provide a WS what they need for change, but if there is one lesson in affairs that I am certain of: The WS must want to change for themselves. Just like alcoholics, change must be internal, with external actions reflecting those changes.

I read every page and there was no real indication his WW was on a path to the change needed to heal a marriage left in ruins by her choices.

That's my take away and I'm very glad the story was shared with me.

That’s exactly the point. He spent a whole year trying. I am sure had great people helping him. Yet he just couldn’t get there because of everything you have said. The underlying fundamentals had not changed. WW did not put in the effort needed or demonstrate the appropriate remorse to give this a chance. And ohforanotherme finally recognised this. And once he did you could just see from his writing how his happiness returned and how his life resumed.

It took him about a year to see this. It’s so hard when you are caught up in this given your history, love and all the emotion. But you need to try and step back and see your own story for what it is and in the context of this one. The patterns in this story seem to mirror yours which is why I thought it would help you reading it.

That’s exactly the point. He spent a whole year trying. I am sure had great people helping him. Yet he just couldn’t get there because of everything you have said. The underlying fundamentals had not changed. WW did not put in the effort needed or demonstrate the appropriate remorse to give this a chance. And ohforanotherme finally recognised this. And once he did you could just see from his writing how his happiness returned and how his life resumed.

It took him about a year to see this. It’s so hard when you are caught up in this given your history, love and all the emotion. But you need to try and step back and see your own story for what it is and in the context of this one. The patterns in this story seem to mirror yours which is why I thought it would help you reading it.

Just asking how You are really doing?

Be well Ave take this one day at a time.

Buffer

Just asking how You are really doing?

Numb today. MC just started and I have my concerns. Ohfor story is certainly on my mind and that part of the story in particular. It seems like MC is going in the direction of me understanding my WW without my WW ever having to be accountable for continued or past lies. I'm letting it play out, it's not too painful at this point. My hardline conclusion is that if WW won't speak truth about her past actions, then she is not capable of speaking truth in the future. That seems like the start of trust building and so that part has not started.

For myself, I'm confident now I can forgive her. Really, I can see that path and I believe in forgiveness for personal and spiritual reasons. Regardless of R outcome forgiveness is an absolute outcome. I'm confident I can accept her past actions as the failure of values and poor choices that they were, including the disrespect of me, the STD risk she placed me in, and the various ways I was lied to and used. I can accept it all as human failing and selfishness. Triggers, dwelling, pain, sorrow, all of that I can see myself getting a handle on and I improve every day. I can turn that open wound into a scar, with WW in successful R or on my own. So for me, I see a path in R that could lead to a restored marriage.

For WW, I see she's gained empathy and can speak to me in ways that are empathetic. No anger, very little defensiveness. She's doing intensive individual counseling and I see her genuinely doing the work to understand why she did what she did. I see genuine remorse in words and actions. But I've kept back more than a few facts, so I can also see her lying herself into a corner. She is steadfast in the "and that's all" as far as her sloppy Ddays, with an accompanying "I'll talk about it (WWs construct of lies) as much as you need dear husband. Also, no seeming remorse for the lying post Dday, that's all my fault for not being a safe place to tell the truth. There are choices besides lies when one is not feeling safe.

My plan is to participate in good faith in MC and see if it does go to "Husband should accept WWs package of lies and move on". Or, if WW's individual counseling leads her to a place of complete honesty with herself and me. There are indications this could be the case. I don't care anymore about the details. What I care about is seeing if WW is capable of telling a truthful story about her actions, that is the only thing that can lead me to feeling safe with her. I'm not even sure I want another official "Dday", that is beside the point right now.

I have patience, but I also like to get things done. In no case will I accept living my life in a house of lies.

It seems like MC is going in the direction of me understanding my WW without my WW ever having to be accountable for continued or past lies.

Would really encourage you to take the advice that has been given repeatedly on MC. This is predictable and highly common.

MC's do NOT know how to appropriately deal with infidelity. They take an amoral stance on the issue, and focus on saving "the marriage" and that means they will enable rugsweeping and blameshifting.

Even subtle pressure to rugsweep or blameshift is highly harmful in infidelity situations.

I can only tell you that you may feel numb now, but if it continues down this path, you will feel a whole lot more pain later. A lot more.

For myself, I'm confident now I can forgive her. Really, I can see that path and I believe in forgiveness for personal and spiritual reasons

Please, please, please try to avoid conflating reconciliation or divorce with forgiveness. They are not the same thing. You can forgive and reconcile. You can forgive and divorce. Forgiveness is for you, first and foremost.

Also, no seeming remorse for the lying post Dday, that's all my fault for not being a safe place to tell the truth.

Huge red flag. No, it isn't your fault. Stop it. You do not have to be a "safe place" - a WS either gets it or they don't. They either tell the truth or they lie. There is no middle ground. It's not on you to treat her as a special flower who needs nursing and tending to blossom with the truth.

If you're unhappy with what the MC is doing, confront. Ask for what you want. Describe what you perceive and experience.

If the MC has a firm belief that M problems caused your W to cheat, stop participating.

Recovering from being betrayed is a process of taking responsibility for yourself and your actions and of getting your issues resolved. It is not a process of learning to stifle yourself, especially in therapy or counseling.

I apologize if I've misread your intention.

If the MC has a firm belief that M problems caused your W to cheat, stop participating.

Recovering from being betrayed is a process of taking responsibility for yourself and your actions and of getting your issues resolved. It is not a process of learning to stifle yourself, especially in therapy or counseling.

So well said, Sisoon. Thank you for saying this. In fact, I needed to read this myself today. Thank you. Because that's exactly how I felt during MC - stifling myself, biting my tongue, going through an artificial process.

“If you're unhappy with what the MC is doing, confront. Ask for what you want. Describe what you perceive and experience.“

It may be self evident, but if you were in my shoes, what specifically would you ask the counselor to figure out their philosophy and whether they will take this into rugsweeping and blame shifting (as Thumos and others have described as all too common? I’d rather spare myself if this is what’s about to happen.

You should have some "interview" type questions.

I can't go back and find the post I gave to someone else on this but you have to make sure they are ideologically aligned with you.

Here was my advice to DanielJK on "generic" MC.

MC is great in terms of getting you to communicate more using the same language so you aren't talking past each other. You will be able to better talk to each other about issues and why they are issues. On that subject, 7 Principles is a great book. It might also help you identify that in fact you don't have a good relationship (or maybe it is totally great otherwise, IDK, mine is otherwise good).

The actual conflict resolution or coping that you will get out of MC is far too flexible and is generally meant for something like leaving socks around the house. I've written this script before and used the socks analogy before but basically, they don't pick sides and don't arbitrate unless there is physical or verbal abuse. Emotional abuse is basically impossible for an MC to tell from a legitimate emotional desire.

SOCKS VERSION:

MC: "How does it feel when you see your partners socks lying around the house?"

Clean Spouse: "I feel like they don't respect the effort it takes to keep the house clean."

MC: "Dirty spouse, see how that makes CS feel?"

DS: "Well it's just a pair of socks, I'm so tired at the end of the day. To me it's not a big deal. I'm just trying to relax in my own home and I get a huge sense of relief to just take my shoes and socks off when I get home and plop down. I mean to pick them up but I forget sometimes is all."

MC: "CS, see, DS doesn't see this action as disrespectful, they are just trying to relax, do you think you could just pick up the socks and give a friendly reminder when you do instead of letting this get you really mad?"

AFFAIR VERSION:

MC: "How does the affair make you feel?"

BS: "Unsafe, hurt, and betrayed. Like my whole life has been taken away from me.

MC: "See WS, BS is hurt, doesn't that make you want to stop the affair?"

WS: "I think that love is complicated and you can love multiple people. I don't see why my love for someone else hurts BS."

MC: "BS, see, they don't mean to hurt you. That relationship is important to WS. Can you see past your insecurity to let WS continue a relationship with AP, and just remind them that you make them the most important part of your relationship when they step out on you?"

Don't be surprised if some bullshit very close to this happens.

They really don't care who capitulates. They just try to make each person see the other person's view. They don't pass judgment and they don't arbitrate. They try to get you to agree no matter the cost to either individual. It's the M they are out to save.

OK. So how do you get around this.

Experience:

What kind of experience do you have with affairs?

What fraction of your clients with affairs have stayed together more than five years post affair?

Minimization:

What kind of damage do you think an affair does to a marriage? (looking for something about how this is a betrayal trauma really)

Blameshifting:

How do you guide couples in repairing this damage?

What kind of changes do you expect from the involved partner? What do you expect from the faithful partner?

Do you believe people have a duty to each other?

Rugsweeping:

What does reasonable forgiveness look like to you?

Do you believe it is a goal to no longer talk about past problems?

It may be self evident, but if you were in my shoes, what specifically would you ask the counselor to figure out their philosophy and whether they will take this into rugsweeping and blame shifting (as Thumos and others have described as all too common? I’d rather spare myself if this is what’s about to happen.

I don’t think I’d ask anything since you’ve indicated that I’d already happening. I would end the MC (which I did)

I like TIF’s catch all question which really puts the screws to bad MC’s: “Does duty exist?”

Watch them squirm their way out of that question and that will tell you everything. MC’s are all about false equivalency and moral equivocation. They have bad ethics which is why you are set up to fail trying to use one after infidelity is revealed. You’re fighting for your life with one hand tied behind your back while the MC pokes you with a sharp object every 5 seconds.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:38 PM, December 16th (Wednesday)]

I see genuine remorse in words and actions. But I've kept back more than a few facts, so I can also see her lying herself into a corner. She is steadfast in the "and that's all" as far as her sloppy Ddays, with an accompanying "I'll talk about it (WWs construct of lies) as much as you need dear husband. Also, no seeming remorse for the lying post Dday, that's all my fault for not being a safe place to tell the truth. There are choices besides lies when one is not feeling safe.

She's remorseful for the stuff she did but she is not remorseful for the lies because it was your fault for not being safe because you need to be a safe place when she is lying and cheating on you?

Meanwhile, it seems like the Marriage Counselor is putting mustard on the proverbial shit sandwich of lies and betrayal. Is your wife shooting this down? Why aren't you?

In no case will I accept living my life in a house of lies.

I'm not really seeing you moving away from this outcome yet.

I agree with confronting the bullshit and pushing back on any effort for you to "understand" the lies and cheating.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 5:37 PM, December 16th (Wednesday)]

Saw my name mentioned here, had to jump in.

Thisoneisfine is spot on. And do not accept any BS about the "environment that existed" before the affair.

I walked out at the end of the second session. The sessions just went in circles. I honestly think it did more harm to me than good.

I'm a firm believer now that betrayal trauma is a real and serious issue that is way under reported and not treated properly.

I feel for you Apparition. I wish you the best.

I totally get where you are. I'm having a hard time letting go too.