SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

CBM:

I am new to this website, so I confess that the various categories--madhatter, BS, WS, sometimes seem a little artificial to me when talking about situations that are no Physical Affairs. I actually agree with you; it seems like you came close to the precipice, but didn't jump into an affair. But this website has its own criteria for grouping people, and I am new, so I will defer.

Nevertheless, believe that you do have support, at least from me.

Regarding your wife's measured responses---has she always been this way, or is this a new trait? Is she only being more careful about what she says since the exposure of the affair?

She cannot post on this board without spending hours or days crafting a response. Many times at home, I feel like we can’t even hold a serious conversation because she struggles to respond in real time. When she posts or talks to other people, I often feel that she is more concerned with how they perceive her than being her honest self.

Has she always been this way?

In some ways, in some ways no. She is different with me than she is with others. She usually feels like shes walking on egg shells when we have "serious" talks, especially now about the affair. This leads her to focus on her anxiety instead of focusing on the questions I ask, so her responses take time because she has to overcome her anxiety first and "practice" what she's going to say in her head so she doesn't accidentally say something hurtful or triggering. Her brain just doesn't process emotions/communication the way that mine does, or as quickly as I would like it to.

She has always needed third party validation and she likes for people to like her. She can summon different personas for different people. She can be excessively complimentary to other people, in an effort to win their affection. I will say, she has been actively working on this one for a while, and I do see improvement here at least. She is becoming more genuine in compliments and interactions, which is a good thing. I don't want her to be mean, just honest and real. Not everyone needs to like you!

While I think that carefully considered words can be just as authentic as any others, I think I get what you're saying. The time lag between question and answer or prompt and response leaves you with the feeling that you're getting something calculated rather than candid. It's a manifestation of her longstanding problem with hiding/minimizing the less savory parts of herself (real or imagined) so as to be able to gain the approval of others. It's something you should definitely be keeping an eye on and expecting to see steadily improve over time. It won't be a quick or easy thing to undo considering how long it's been her default behavior, but it's necessary for her personal growth and making herself a safe partner for you.

You really nailed it Firenze. I think you're spot on with this. I may have misused "authentic", because you're right, I think she is authentic on here and authentic when we talk. What is lacking is a sense of being "unfiltered" or candid, like you said. I crave for that, but I feel like I can't get it because she just doesn't work like that, especially not with me (she gets extra anxious because of how much she cares about my feelings and reactions to her words).

How does she handle being directly challenged on it? If the next time you wanted to have a difficult conversation you set a rule that she wasn't allowed to walk away and take hours to formulate a response, or even take more than a moment or two to consider it before speaking, how would that go? It might help her get into the habit of being able to speak off the cuff.

She and I just spoke about this and she pointed out that I can make it difficult for her because if she speaks off the cuff and says something that makes less than 100% sense (which happens often when she tried to be candid), I get frustrated and tend to lash out - "what do you mean? That makes no sense. Why can't you say what you really feel?" etc. It's true, because I feel like her half-formed responses are intentionally vague or muddy, to get out of answering whatever the question is. She says they come out that way because they are vague and muddy in her own head.

I don't work like that at all, so I have trouble empathizing and assume it's intentional, whereas she swears its not intentional, her brain just doesn't work like that. I know I have to give her the benefit of the doubt and be more patient and understanding, but in the heat of emotional conversations it can be hard. It actually reminds me of when I was getting more TT out of her - I had to create a safe space for her talk, while at the same time fighting every urge in my body to lash out and yell at her. Very hard to do, but productive in the end.

CBM, just checking in on you -- how are you doing?

Hey CBM, I know you mentioned possibly stepping back from posting here but I just wanted to check in and see how things are going with you, if you're still around.

We are still trying to reconcile but it is up and down, constantly. My wife can't go a week without saying or doing something that puts us back at square one. Whether it's choosing to share with me that she "doesn't need me to satisfy her" when we're supposed to be having sex, or sharing that she has had sexual fantasies about my best friend for a decade, or flirting via text with our lesbian babysitter, or asking me "don't you even miss your kids?" while we're out on a date together, or getting her feelings hurt because I can't read her mind... it goes on and on.

She seems incapable of acting in a way that that makes feel like she thinks about me and cares about my feelings before acting or speaking. She will say she thinks about me constantly, but actions speak louder than words. She is so obsessed with her own self-development and discovery that she has lost any empathy she had for me. She blurts out her feelings without any regard to my state of mind or what might damage me, and then indignantly tells me it's for the best, it's how our marriage is going to get better, she's going to be a better person for it, etc. Meanwhile, we can't go a week without fighting because of her inability to filter herself or consider the context of her words or actions.

I think the decade of lying has significantly damaged her ability to feel empathy for me outside of the "emotional" moments where the affair is directly on my mind. Everything else feels too normal, like she has made it habit of treating me "normally" her whole life despite knowing what she had done, and now it's more of the same. She can't seem to adapt to the fact that she may lose me, or like she has "accepted the outcome" but to a degree that it seems careless.

Last night, she came into bed while I was watching TV and she got mad at me for not stopping the video I was watching to ask her if she wanted to watch something else together. Of course, she didn't use words to tell me she didn't like what I was watching, she actually did the opposite - she showed interest, asked what it was, how I heard about it, etc. I assumed she was interested and kept on watching, and she picked up and read her kindle.

20 minutes later, I go to kiss her goodnight and instead of leaning in to kiss, she coldly, says, "what?" I say, "what do you mean 'what', I'm trying to kiss you goodnight." She finally tells me that she's upset, that I "made her feel disregarded" because I didn't ask her what she wanted to watch and I instead controlled the TV and hurt her feelings. I am just incredulous. I had no idea she felt like this, I don't know why she didn't ask to watch something else, I don't know why she showed interest in the video if she didn't want to watch it, I can't figure her out at all. She's mad at me for what I didn't say to her, and yet the words she said to me were conflict-avoidant and dishonest, with her just hoping I would read her mind. I feel unfairly attacked when all I wanted was to kiss her goodnight and end the weekend on a high note.

And so, after a good weekend together (which is incredibly rare for us lately), we're fighting again. She's indignant that she has a right to have her feelings hurt, and I'm indignant that she should have processed her feelings and realized they were unreasonable and not said anything, especially given how fragile our current state is.

It feels so fucking NORMAL to me I could scream. How could my wife, who cheated on me and lied to me for my entire life, pick a fight with me over something so impossibly STUPID? And she would say, "I wasn't picking a fight. I just wanted to express my feelings. I think that's important to my growth." And to that I want to scream, your growth isn't more important than my happiness! Your feelings on this are irrational! I didn't do anything that should have hurt your feelings! (literally - she is literally mad at me for saying nothing, for not saying the words she was hoping to hear. I didn't live up to her idealistic vision of how I would act, and for that I am guilty.)

It's a script you could have written from any point in our life, it's men-are-from-mars, women-are-from-venus kind of shit, it's a stupid, avoidable fight, and yet my wife can't seem to choose to avoid it. The "new flawed" HAS to say something, otherwise she's "being her old self" who holds it all in. She does not have the ability to use nuance, to consider context, to make a cost/benefit decision before speaking, to THINK. It feels like she has completely taken me, and our marriage, for granted, like she is treating us like any normal married couple and not going the extra mile (or just the extra two fucking inches) to not cause a fight, to keep us happy, to be aware of my sensitivity, and to do anything to keep me around.

I just want to be happy for more than one week at a time. Reconciliation feels impossible when there is a setback every single weekend. I'm losing any hope we will make it. We just feel completely incompatible to me. When we are happy we are still very happy together, but it is starting to feel like a facade that crumbles to pieces at the slightest chance.

Thats so sad to hear. I've been keeping up with this one and I read your wife's posts and I thought you two had a good chance. She seems to get it in her posts, guess she doesn't out in the real world though. Wish you the best, and I hope it takes a better turn for you.

[This message edited by iamweasel at 5:22 PM, March 4th (Monday)]

Everyone in my life says the same thing: "it was so long ago, she was young (early 20s at the time), you weren't married, you need to forgive and forget". It just doesn't feel that simple to me.

This is nonsense.

This might have been a long time ago, but you just found out about it. So it is new hurt for you.

Additionally, while the actual sex may have happened 12 years ago, the lies have continued up until now. It's hard to reconcile staying with someone who looked at you in the face for 12 years and lied and it makes you wonder what else has been a lie?

I'm sorry you are in this place. You are not crazy, and you deserve whatever answers from her will help you process this.

I'm sorry to hear that things are still so difficult for you two. One of the things I cautioned your WW about in one of the more recent posts I made in her thread is that right now is not the time for her to expect you to be able to be particularly considerate of her wants or needs, but it seems that she didn't get the message.

If I had to guess, I would say that she's so used to being dishonest and fake that she has no idea how to have an honest conversation while being tactful and mindful of your feelings. So what you're seeing now is someone with the emotional intelligence of a twelve year old.

She comes off very well here, and she is a very kind, well spoken, thoughtful person when she wants to be. I love her for those qualities, and they shine through in her writing. I am sure she has many admirers here as a WS who "gets it". But I can tell you first hand that what people choose (keyword) to share, especially on the WS side, is not always the full story or the whole story.

I have also asked her to post less because she had started coming here to post instead of communicating with me, which to me was unacceptable. I also don't like how much of an obsession this website seemed to become for her. I don't want to be controlling, but I don't want to feel like she cares more about thoughts from internet strangers than sharing with me. She made this post (https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=633174&AP=101#mid8330633) after I left the house in a rage two weeks ago and stayed at a hotel. She could have emailed me, but posted here instead.

She also left out what to me is an essential detail - that we had planned to have sex earlier in the day, that there was an expectation of it, and that she choose to share her "I don't need you to satisfy me, I want to fulfill myself" thoughts instead of having sex, while I lay naked next to her. Another key part she left off is how she got to the subject. While I lay naked next to her, she says "Remember last night when you asked me if you satisfy me, and I said, 'yes, completely'. Can I amend my answer?" I still remember the anxiety that statement caused me, trying to figure out in my head in what way I didn't satisfy her. Such a way with words she has.

I soon found out what she meant - in her quest for self discovery, that became an unsatisfactory answer... to her. Not to me (I loved that answer), but to her - she wants to be fulfilled on her own, that's how she knows she'll be safe, by not needing anyone else, including me. That's great, and I can get on board with the premise, but I didn't need that amendment and I especially didn't need to hear it while laying naked next to her expecting to have sex. Unsurprisingly, it led to a long affair conversation, me being a bad mood, and no sex. Who could have seen that coming???

It's a perfect example of why we don't work any longer - she is dead set on "finding her voice" and expressing herself and her feelings, but she lacks the ability to pick and choose when and how to share, and expects me to considerate of her needs and feelings whenever she feels like sharing. It's volatile for me. It hurts me in new and surprising ways, every week. I feel like there is no space for me in the "new her" she is building.

We just feel completely incompatible to me. When we are happy we are still very happy together, but it is starting to feel like a facade that crumbles to pieces at the slightest chance.

I can so, so, so relate to this. (I was the WS; we remarried; we’re 9 years from D-day.) It sucks. I’m sorry.

One of the things your WW posted was that she feared becoming resentful of having to put your needs first because seemed to view it as some kind of zero-sum situation where putting your first meant silencing herself. I tried to point out that that wasn't necessarily the case, but from the sound of it it doesn't sound like she grasped any of the subtlety or nuance of what putting your spouse first looks like in a normal relationship.

That's no surprise really, since she spent every single second of every single day for twelve years putting herself first. She would probably protest that assertion, but the truth is that the massive lie that has defined your entire marriage trumps, in every single way, every small kindness or act of sacrifice she has ever made. None of it counts. Absolutely none of it. She gets no brownie points, no credit, no nothing. Everything before DDay was bullshit and if she's thinking to herself that all the times she silenced her own voice to give you what you wanted before DDay should be taken into account, she's mistaken. Right now is proving time. You must come first, second, and third in her life and everything she does must be run through the filter of "How would BH feel if I were to say/do this right now?" before she takes action.

Emotionally tone-deaf, resentful Flawed isn't going to cut it. She needs to get her shit together.

[This message edited by firenze at 6:02 PM, March 4th (Monday)]

I'm sorry to hear that things are still so difficult for you two. One of the things I cautioned your WW about in one of the more recent posts I made in her thread is that right now is not the time for her to expect you to be able to be particularly considerate of her wants or needs, but it seems that she didn't get the message.

She doesn't get this, at all, but thank you for saying it. After her feelings were hurt for the (IMO) ridiculous reason described above, I basically said this to her. Her response was to get even more hurt and throw it in my face - "oh right, I forgot my feelings don't count". Sigh. I have to be thoughtful and sympathetic of my wife's irrationally hurt feelings while coping with all that she has "given" to me... this is what she is asking of me, and it's asking too much. And she wants us to start MC again with a new person in a month, because EFT therapy is going to magically "solve" us..

We just feel completely incompatible to me. When we are happy we are still very happy together, but it is starting to feel like a facade that crumbles to pieces at the slightest chance.

I can so, so, so relate to this. (I was the WS; we remarried; we’re 9 years from D-day.) It sucks. I’m sorry.

Can you tell more of your story? I am giving this scenario much more thought lately. I think I may have to D to be able to fall in love with her again, and to feel like her love for me is real. She loves to tell me ferociously when we fight, "I fucking love you, you can't take that from me." I told her she wields her love for me like a weapon, almost taunts me with it. I feel like she takes me for granted in a huge way. If we divorce and remarry, at least we will know the love is real on both sides, even taking everything into account.

I want us to work. I really, really do. 90% of the time we're very good together, we have fun, we're good parents, we love each other, we make good love together, we laugh. But the 10% when we fight or she hurts me is just unbearable. If D and then remarry would fix that 10%, I would do it in a heartbeat.

She loves to tell me ferociously when we fight, "I fucking love you, you can't take that from me." I told her she wields her love for me like a weapon, almost taunts me with it. I feel like she takes me for granted in a huge way.

The next time she says this, tell her "I can take it away and I will. You spent every single day for twelve years lying to my face, disrespecting me, and stealing my own autonomy from me. That is not love. It doesn't matter what you felt, it matters what you did. And what you did was something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. You think a few months of scattershot attempts at honesty means you get to stand here and tell me you love me, and that I have to take your word for it? You're delusional. All you're doing right now is proving how selfish you still are and how much work you have to do before you begin to understand what love even is."

Cantbeme,

For some couples the remarry does fix it. We thought it would for us. Unfortunately, in our case, we were wrong. There are many other issues besides my nearly-decade-ago infidelity though. A special-needs kid. Come to find out, I also have a special-needs husband, which didn't become evident until aforementioned kid, and once it did become apparent, it was as obvious as the nose on anyone's face. Another kid, which made two under two for a bit, and to this day makes for NO TIME FOR ANYTHING BUT KIDS. Which is mostly fine, but which makes it easier and easier to ignore each other. But, I digress---just saying, it's not the infidelity issues that are at play with us---but the remarry was NOT the fix we thought it'd be.

Brief synopsis of my story: almost 10 years ago, when I was in my mid-20s and childless and had only been married to my husband for a couple of years, "the one that got away" came back into the picture. I was idealistic and romantic and not strong (and bitter ) like I am now, and I chose the immoral and weak path and had an affair. I intended it to be an "exit affair"---I've heard my type of infidelity described on SI as "monkey branching"; I was too much of a coward to tell my husband, "ex came back into the picture and regrets everything and wants me back; bye" and so like a monkey holds onto one branch while swinging to the next, I had a cowardly affair and my husband caught me via phone records. We were divorced within 2 months of D-day and even though I was free, I then became too gutless to stay with the AP because of "how it would look"---as if anything would look worse than having an affair in the first place, but. So we all went our separate ways. Two years later, my husband had a change of heart and felt that he had been too hasty in getting an immediate divorce and giving up on me and our M and asked if I'd be interested to try again.

Now, everything in me was screaming "RUN!!!" but I had a lot of (false) pride and vague romantic notions about redemption and such, plus I felt like I "owed" him fixing what I broke and making things right, yada yada yada. So, we started dating again, and right from the start I realized that I had NO sexual passion for him anymore....but there were a lot of positives: he was funny & made me laugh, he was a good person w/ integrity, he would be a great dad if (when) we had kids, etc. Long story short, we remarried on what would have been our seventh anniversary.

We have two beautiful baby girls, but not much of a marriage. We're basically roommates and co-parents and not much else. It's sad, because we had a lot of hope.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 7:18 PM, March 4th (Monday)]

Yikes - sorry DarknessFalls. That makes me sad. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't want what you have. (I get the sense you would agree)

My wife and I are usually extremely compatible, and we are very sexually compatible. What worries me is that as my wife "grows her voice", we feel less and less compatible. This scares me. Have I ever been compatible with the "real her"? Who even is that? Am I so controlling that I need a sycophant for a wife who only ever agrees with me? I don't think so, but I bet my wife feels that way sometimes.

What makes me sad is that I think if my wife told me the truth wayyyy back when, I would have either stayed with and reconciled or we would have split up but probably found our way back together. Back then, we were so compatible, so in love, so magnetic to each other. It's what makes her affair all the more painful to me. It was so worthless, so selfish, for no good reason (as if there ever is, but you know what I mean).

We have two little kids also, and we had two under two for a period as well (they're 20 months apart). In a very sad way, my kids are often triggering for me - I didn't know who my wife was when we had them together, and when they act up I feel very resentful towards her. They also suffer along with me sometimes and it's the most unfair thing in the fucking world, and I resent her even more. We have no family in our state, so we are parents 24/7/365 and often end up raising our voices a bit around them. We both try very hard not to, but it makes it extra difficult to cope with the situation, and places more stress on everything.

Not to mention, it makes it even more painful for me when my wife says needlessly hurtful things like "don't you even miss your kids a little bit?" when we're out enjoying a date (context being that she asked me if I wanted to pick the kids up early, and I said no I didn't, I was enjoying our date). She projects her guilt onto me and then makes me feel like crap. Instead of a genuine apology, I am told to control my reaction and try to understand her intention and that she sometimes can't control her blurting out. And I think, if she can't control it now in the midst of this shitstorm, when will she ever be able to? And how much shit like that am I willing to take?

I wish I didn't love my wife as much as I do, or at least as much I know I am able to. It would make the situation so much easier. I keep fantasizing that she'll confess to an additional affair so I can just end it with confidence and certainty. It's an awful thought, but I have it a lot.

(I get the sense you would agree)

Oh, of course I would!

Mine are 22 months apart.

The saddest thing for us is that we used to feel we were VERY compatible. But as the years go on, it becomes more and more evident that we really are NOT, and never were.

CBM,

You wrote, flirting via text with our lesbian babysitter

How does your WW justify that, is this girl underage?

CBM,

You wrote, flirting via text with our lesbian babysitter

How does your WW justify that, is this girl underage?

"I wanted her to think I was cool." That, and she actually doesn't really justify it at all, she acknowledges it was stupid and reckless and damaging.

Our babysitter is not underage at all, she about our age, maybe a little younger (late 20s, early 30s). She's a larger girl, not unattractive but not traditionally attractive either. She has a very confident, outgoing attitude that we both like and our kids love her.

For some reason, over the course of the past few weeks, her texts with my wife went from "scheduling only" to talking about her personal life, to her being on vacation, to her then sending my wife a picture of her in the ocean wearing a bathing suit and sarong. It was not overly sexual, but I still cannot understand why she would send that to my wife for any reason other than "I have a crush on you, I'm fishing for a compliment." Inappropriate no matter how you parse it IMO.

My wife's response to her after getting this picture? "Holy shit how beautiful! The ocean looks nice too." Yeah, my wife dropped a lame pick up line on our gay babysitter.

If my wife said this to a random girlfriend of hers, I would not blink an eye, but to our very openly gay babysitter? WTF?! Why are you flirting with her like that? What is your end goal here? She has a girlfriend, who would probably not be thrilled to see that her hot mom client is talking to her like that. I obviously was less than thrilled to see it, to say the least. What if the babysitter responded in escalation with more flirting? Where does it end? HOW does it end, without hurting feelings or ruining our relationship with our sitter?

It was truly mind-blowingly stupid and reckless. All for a quick "ego kibble", validation, attention. The same shit that got us here in the first place. My wife has said she thought this girl was "safe" to flirt with because she wasn't "serious" about flirting, and my wife "really thought she looked beautiful" (my wife is obsessed with this argument, as if her sincerity matters). My wife said, "she just looked so happy and I wanted to make her feel good." To which I replied, "why the fuck didn't you say exactly that, 'you look so happy!' Why the need for the flirty pickup line?" Her only answer is she wanted the sitter to think she was cool and clever so that she'll want to babysit for us. I told her paying her is how we make sure wants to babysit for us. It's a fucking job, not a popularity contest. I got really mad when she said this, and told her it sounds like BS. And she just repeats, "well its the truth, its how I feel". Sure. Maybe it is. It's still completely ridiculous, justifying bullshit that explains none of her behavior. There is no need to flirt like that to make this person like her, or us. She already likes us. She likes our kids. She likes getting paid.

Best of all, this text happened the day after I returned home from staying at a hotel because I was so mad at her for one of our other blowups.

And I found these texts because I picked up her phone and started going through it. Only when I picked up her phone did my wife say, "oh, there's a weird text with (babysitter) in there, I meant to tell you but i forgot" And she wanted credit for "disclosing" it to me! Uh yeah, a confession when you're about to get caught doesn't count.

Of all the hurtful things my wife has done the past few months while we try to reconcile, this has been one of the scariest for me. It was so. fucking. WAYWARD. I couldn't believe it. That she would hit "send" on that stupid fucking text, a text with no upside, and so much downside, with so much pain to cause both to this girl and to me.... I just can't comprehend it.

So now I am really uncomfortable around our only reliable sitter, who our kids love, and who is good at her job, and who probably has a crush on my wife. And my wife, who has written our an R plan with boundaries to follow and everything, failed at the first challenge to her "sobriety" and couldn't turn down the opportunity to drop a smooth line on our sitter for the kicks.

Does your wife really not understand that she is not to get flirty with anyone who is not you, ever, for any reason, ever again?

That's...extremely concerning.

My wife has said she thought this girl was "safe" to flirt with because she wasn't "serious" about flirting, and my wife "really thought she looked beautiful" (my wife is obsessed with this argument, as if her sincerity matters).

Remind her that she sincerely wanted her AP's dick inside her and ask her if her sincerity had any bearing at all on whether or not it was a good or moral decision.

[This message edited by firenze at 9:25 PM, March 4th (Monday)]

I am told to control my reaction and try to understand her intention and that she sometimes can't control her blurting out. And I think, if she can't control it now in the midst of this shitstorm, when will she ever be able to? And how much shit like that am I willing to take?

Not buying it......She can control it. She just lacks motivation. If she was promised 1 million dollars to have self control for 30 days....she could do it. She is CHOOSING not to control her mouth.

She seems to have taken her mandate to figure herself out as an excuse to become even more selfish. Me Me Me.

It does not bode well that she needs coaching on how to act like a decent human being. Flirting with someone else? After confessing to banging someone else? You cannot teach empathy.

IMO she should be on her knees, crying, blubbering, begging you not to leave. To give her a second chance. Basically the opposite of what she is doing now.

Given your more detailed description of the current situation, combined with her utter inability to empathize, I am beginning to think she may not be R material.