SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You have had several good and eloquent contributions about your situation. I’m going to try using a rather more blunt and outspoken description:

I have often switched infidelity out in place with some trauma or event that we might better understand. Mainly because I think we are never prepared or never expect to discover infidelity and therefore don’t have a clue on what to do. So I replace discovering infidelity to waking up with your house on fire.

OK – You have already established there is a fire. It does sound like there is no outright burning and raging flame right now, but In some rooms there are embers still glowing and still causing damage and the whole house reeks of smoke. In some rooms you see evidence of former fires that might be out now, but the damage is still there.

How would you react in that situation?

There are some things I would guess you would NOT do:

You wouldn’t simply lock the rooms with the old damage and no longer use them. The damage to the roof in the spare-bedroom will eventually wreck the whole house. The smell of charred flooring in the kitchen will eventually spread all over the home.

You wouldn’t adapt your life around some key-rooms not being usable. I guess you could do your business in a porta potty in the kids room for a few days, but eventually you need that bathroom.

You wouldn’t call in a contractor before the last embers are out. You wouldn’t spend cash replacing the carpets before you are feeling assured they won’t burn again.

You wouldn’t hesitate to call the fire department because you sort-of expect them to cause some further damage with their hoses and boots and jimmy’s and hooks.

I’m guessing you would make sure the fire is out before establishing if the house is salvageable. I’m also guessing you would accept the temporary damage from the hoses and boots knowing it was necessary to kill the flames. I’m guessing that if the flames can’t be extinguished you would get out. Maybe even move to another, different house.

Well… IMHO that’s where you have been all these 18 pages. Dealing with a burning house. You might kill one flame only to find a new ember. Might close one room only to still find the stink from behind the closed door. You have been negotiating with a fire, one that neither feels a need to comply or has any interest in being extinguished.

Your wife has told you what she wanted. She might not have used the words “divorce” but she has used more-or-less every word and all actions around that subject. One of the reasons the attack on Pearl Harbor is notorious is that the attack took place BEFORE Japan declared war. Yet there was no denying the message. This is comparable: Your wife has attacked and sent the message repeatedly without the declaration.

Does this mean this “most perfect of marriages” is over?

No!

Not necessarily.

But it does mean you have to take her message seriously and stop all hope of some semi-divorced-semi-married stance.

She has told you:

WW said today she saw an attorney. WW said she wishes sje had a BF to move in with. WW said she didn’t want me at her families Christmas party.

Take her arms in yours and look her straight in the eyes. Tell her:

THANK YOU for the honesty.

You are totally free to go find a boyfriend to move in with. Nothing is forcing you to be or remain my wife.

And

I’m OK with not being at your families Christmas party.

Once she sees you have accepted the inevitability of that a marriage in infidelity can’t be then and only then is there a slight chance she might change. But if that does happen then the possible reconciliation might be based on some true grounds, rather than what has been taking place for frigging 18 pages!

So your WW told you after her initial reaction of rejection and attack that your list of requests was suddenly reasonable, and she wants to now focus MC on addressing A issues. Words are very easy. Has she changed any of her ACTIONS? Meaning, if you bring up something that triggers you and want to talk about it, does she still turn the tables on you about how didn't do something for her and she has held it against for you for 10 years?

You asked previously regarding your MC if it was a Mars/Venus thing. I believe that is a very large part of it, and as your MC is a woman, she is probably always going to seem biased. My MC was a man, and I seemed to understand him fairly well. One example is he explained that no one can MAKE you feel anything. Each of us is responsible for our own reactions and feelings. He also said don't tell people how they feel. I think that I had similar frustrations to you in dealing with my XWW, to how you were relating that discussion. You asked a question and your WW decides she is being intimidated. That is her reaction to your question. In reality, you did not cause that, you simply asked a question and she CHOSE to assume you were trying to intimidate her. She is actually telling you how YOU are feeling and speaking. For example, if you said "Would you like coffee or tea?" she can say "He was intimidating me to drink coffee". There is no truth in that, it may be her perception, but it is based on HER not you.

This was something that XWW and I could not move past. Most everything I said, she looked at all of the possible ways to interpret it, and chose the worst one. Your WW seems to be doing something similar. IMO, it shows her mindset. Meaning, she is holding so much resentment or anger or something negative that she cannot see things in a positive light. Keep in mind, I have no training and am not a professional so take this information for what it is, just an opinion of a fellow BS.

I have to agree with many others that you are really wasting your time with R and MC. Your WW is not showing you any real actions or work to prove she is willing to resolve the issues. Her M was great, but she chose to lie and cheat. She is doing nothing to make you believe she won't do it again. Unless you are willing to rugsweep what you know, and ignore any future shady activities, you should D.

I love the fire analogy and it works for MC.

The house may have needed work, like the kitchen may have needed to be updated or the roof had a slight leak, by the WS set the house on fire.

Now you go to MC. The first thing most MCs want to do is start work on updating the kitchen and fixing the roof. But wait a minute, the house is on fire. Can we first make sure everyone is safe, then put out the fire, then fix the fire damage, then maybe we can start talking about updating the kitchen and fixing the roof?

The first thing our MC did was ask about our “love languages.” Seriously?

I feel like Apparition is in a similar situation to mine.

Apparition, I don’t mean to pile on. I certainly felt like I was being piled on with responses to my posts. But I have to say that almost all of the folks here were right. Don’t be like me. Don’t wait around any longer. Limbo is a horrible place to visit and you certainly do not want to live there.

I think you should consider that your wife is not just a bad partner but a predatory partner. Maybe she is a good person

( who knows ) but there is frankly no way she has ever been or likely ever will be ( sorry ) an acceptable partner .

While her behavior is shoddy I honestly think your biggest problem here is not her but you . Like every adult you need to love yourself and defend yourself and see reality for what it is .

Its prob best to put your marriage on ice for now and see a therapist to focus on finding strength and clarity . Everything else will fall into place.

Im speaking btw as someone who has fallen on their face enough times ; i know how difficult it is to break out of bad relationship patterns self abandonment and wishful thinking . Once you see the problem however its very fixable .

Sorry, just had to add…

I am in no way an advocate for divorce in all cases.

In all honesty I expect to file for divorce this week. But…If my WW finally said to me today “I want to stay married and I will do everything you need to feel safe in this marriage again.” I would jump at the opportunity.

I’ve been living a nightmare for 7 months. I have been emotionally abused. I am at a breaking point.

I read this thread and feel the same emotion here…one wants to stay married and is doing all the work. The other, not so much. A happy, healthy marriage cannot be sustained like that.

I am in no way an advocate for divorce in all cases.

Me neither. But......

I do believe that it should be a realistic and thoroughly considered option after infidelity. When the focus is reconciliation when our partner is NO WHERE NEAR RECONCILIATUON MATERIAL, it complicates matters exponentially. It continues to leave the entire process in the wayward's hands. Go ask ANY former wayward if that approach would have been effective for them to come to their senses when their thinking was the most selfish.

Apparition

She does everything to drive you to the brink, where the only option is to initiate D, and then she opens a small window and says “join me here, there’s a little bit of sun we can share among the clouds.”

My recommendation would be to tell her that you’d love to see her finally work on the issues she has that drove her to cheat, and to take steps to help you heal and rebuild .... but that in no way will stop you from initiating the D process.

Her taking those steps while you are filing will prove if she truly is all in or just trying stall tactics. Right now all she has given you are words. Don’t confuse them with actions.

Reconciliation only STARTS when the WS has COMPLETED the work to fix themselves and the BS accepts that work to be worthy. It doesn’t start with the initial words and promises from the BS.

So tell her to prove what’s coming out of her mouth, but be very clear that she will have to do that while the D process proceeds.

One of my favorite lines is “your infidelity ended our marriage and appropriately I will be divorcing you. If you want a chance to be my romantic and life partner again, you start at square one to earn that chance. It’s what you do starting now that will prove if you are worthy of that opportunity “.

Good luck.

I am in no way an advocate for divorce in all cases.

Heck... Since I'm on record stating that any marriage can survive any issue then I'm classified as a Public Enemy by those posters that do think R is seldom if ever possible. I have even seen where they gather and whine about my insanity on other forums...

R has some requirements. Your wife isn't offering those requirements. Therefore waiting for R or offering R or even attempting R isn't possible. That only leaves the dreaded other option. Just like you didn't ask for your home to burn you simply deal with what you are dealt with.

Apparition,

Just get a lawyer to make sure she gets NOTHING.

She was never a wife exclusive to you for your whole marriage,

At most she should 5% of what she would get in an honest divorce or her first months rent for a one room apartment whichever is less.

Apparition, I apologize if my previous post was harsh, or came across that way. I'm upset for you and all other BSs that just get hammered by the WWs. Its easier said then done and its a lot clearer looking in.

I wish you well on your journey, and I hope you get the end result that you're hoping for.

Apparation time to D. She is gone, but doesn’t know it.

One day at a time

TY Halftime, I took your post in the spirit it was offered, I just didn't want to be misunderstood and wanted everyone to know how much the advice on SI means to me. My ability/choice to not follow sound advice isn't an indication of my respect for the advice.

I've taken some time with my WW's latest words. I've read the advice in my thread from the beginning (was up at 4:00 am). Searched my own heart and mind to figure out what I can do now. I'm committing myself to do the actual hard 180. I did what I was calling a soft 180, cherry picking. Someone (Bigger/Thumos/Siracha/Faithfulman?) said something to the effect that 'all the soft 180 was doing was making me strong enough to take more abuse.' Whoever said it, it sunk in now.

I need to have a change of mindset, my responses need to be more like those from people who have done the legit 180. I don't actually know where this will lead. But all I've done so far is get myself put together so I could withstand more suffering. I'm like a tortured prisoner who exercises, eats well, administers my own bandages, and mentally prepares for the next beating. There is a pattern.

So, it may not sound like much of a decision, but it feels right to me. The soft 180 did have some benefits, I put myself back together using some of the tools. So I'm taking a leap of faith that not cherry picking, hard 180, that I might get better clarity.

I can’t remember if I said it but I’m not a big fan of the soft 180. It’s too happy clappy and putting on a bit of an act. The hard 180 is just basically “you’re not a safe person. I’m detaching from you.”

I'm like a tortured prisoner who exercises, eats well, administers my own bandages, and mentally prepares for the next beating. There is a pattern.

Yes and you may need to go beyond hard 180 and into grey rock mode with your WW as this continues. She seems very irrational and dangerous to me from what you’ve described.

Apparition,

I liked your paraphrasing....

Someone (Bigger/Thumos/Siracha/Faithfulman?) said something to the effect that 'all the soft 180 was doing was making me strong enough to take more abuse.' Whoever said it, it sunk in now.

OMG I've seen this cycle so many times in marriages, but I've always looked at it from the perspective of the abuser knowing they went too far and fearing the larger consequences.

You had been shaping yourself to be essentially punched into the face repeatedly. Learning how to take a punch is not healing.

I think and hope you’re on a better path now where you simply don’t accept being punched in the face at all.

Being punched in the face is abuse. Adultery is abuse. Serial cheating is repeat abuse, chronic abuse. When you think about it this way the path becomes more clear.

App - I hope you are starting to see things w/ some distance and balance, and how F'd up your situation truly is, that you deserve much more, but she can't and won't give it to you.

180 180 180 180 - It's only for YOU. For you to find your balance, to stop the abuse, to start putting your next steps together. Then it's for moving forward.

You can't control her, you can't stop her, and you certainly aren't responsible for her broken shit.

Focus on App and what he wants and needs to get healthy. Then do it.

180 180 180 180 - It's only for YOU. For you to find your balance, to stop the abuse, to start putting your next steps together. Then it's for moving forward.

I’ve gone back and read the newbie threads, “best of”, etc. The move from soft to real 180 was not a very long trip for me. One of the important take aways for me was that staying and doing real180 is temporary stage. Staying can’t be long term. The directional mind switch has been revealing to me, but has brought sadness. I’m not happy, I feel like I’m grieving, but when WW speaks I’m not tortured. Her words are air. This is actually better than my pretend okay soft 180 that was letting myself be daily abused. Merry Christmas everyone, wishing you all love and joy through the season.

Apparition

I'm here with you buddy. I served papers on my wife yesterday and thought I would feel better about it but somehow I'm back to the pit of despair I felt on DDay.

I know how you feel. I want my L/Wife back too.

Everyone has their own breaking points. You may not have reached yours, but the 180 is definitely the way to go. Do what's best for you.

All of us here understand the pain and sadness you feel. You should be sad, your WW inflicted damage on you and your family. There's no shame in feeling that way.

I feel like you and I are in similar situations. I feel like I've been emotionally tortured for the past 7 months. At least with filing for divorce yesterday I was able to stop the beatings, they will not continue.

I wish you the best. I look forward to the day when you and I are not looking at this site on an almost daily basis for help and support, but come back frequently to offer help and support to those suffering like we are now.

Merry Christmas (at least as merry as it can be given the circumstances).

All the best apparition , your decision re the 180 is a very solid and healthy one . The good thing about being human is that we can not sustain high intensity emotions for long . When you are gripped with sadness just remind yourself the worst of it will pass in minutes or hours . Try breathing exercises Just aim to get through one min at a time and soon your muscle memory will kick in and you will start to realize that you are healing faster than you imagined .

Care for yourself eat well hug your children know that you are a wonderful loving person and that you did everything humanly possible to love her but she just isnt capable right now of loving or being loved ... and you have no healthy choice left but to let her go .

To some extent we all see people through the lens of what we can easily understand , maybe a lightbulb doesnt actually look anything like a lightbulb . Perhaps we just dont have multifaceted depth color shape perception to see its true form . Similarly as a good person who isnt a cheater you shouldn't feel bad that she turned out to be a mutiheaded hydra and not the love of your life . Your deception perception is limited by the authenticity of your own character . Her decieit and immorality -thats all on her . There is a much better person and a much better life ahead of you .

Wishing you all the best during xmas and the new year ,

[This message edited by siracha at 9:15 AM, December 24th (Thursday)]

I’m not happy, I feel like I’m grieving, but when WW speaks I’m not tortured. Her words are air. This is actually better than my pretend okay soft 180 that was letting myself be daily abused. Merry Christmas everyone, wishing you all love and joy through the season.

What you will find is that, if you are truly practicing The 180, all of it, as days and weeks go by those 34 steps will become ingrained and almost second nature when it comes to dealing with her. You will get to where you are practicing it without even thinking about it, and then it is no longer something you have to give effort to, because it has re-grooved your brain.

What the 180 did for me was help get me to the DGAFFA (don't give a fiddler's f*ck anymore) stage. My xWW finally threw in the towel and gave up on resurrecting our marriage when she saw that I had literally no emotional response to her anymore. Before that point, she knew she still had some control over me because she could get a response out of me: make me jealous, make me mad, make me cry... As long as she could get an emotional response from me, she knew she still had an "in".

Then one day it was gone. The 180 had helped me make it over the threshold, and once I did it was liberating. My xWW looked at me and saw that she was now no more important to me than the mailman or the checker down at the supermarket. And when she realized that, she fell apart. I had taken back control from her, and it was a stupendous feeling.

[This message edited by Westway at 1:41 PM, December 29th (Tuesday)]