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The problem with people being “Brutally Honest” isn’t the Honest part, fer’ fucks sakes, it’s the fucking Brutal part.

Every single example given here for the necessity of shaking a BS’ out of their daze... Every. Single. One. Could just as easily be accomplished with that same level of honesty gently and compassionately delivered.

It’s about reading the fucking room folks. If I am a BH venting and calling my wife a whore then I suppose I am inviting the group to pile on with the venting. But if a BH is here hurting and confused looking for support? How in the hell is it remotely helpful to go ahead and pile on a bunch of fucking reenforcement of all the horrible emasculating shit he is already fucking thinking about himself?

And, as an aside, anyone here that says they haven’t seen that shit is either not reading thoroughly or has so thoroughly acclimated themselves to that kind of thinking that it simply fails to fucking register with them. Because I can tell you that when I see some of that shit pop up in a thread it stands out bright and bold, it fucking stops me up short. I fucking notice it. (And no, I am not going to go and gather supporting fucking documents for anyone either. If the sheer number of members, both male and female, posting here about seeing it isn’t convincing enough then I can’t imagine there would be any fucking point)

And I certainly wouldn’t characterize myself as some kind of language police or fan of censorship. Hell, I use the word fuck like it’s fucking punctuation for fucks sake! But even I can see that there is a time and a place and a situation for some kinds of communication and there are times, places and situations where another approach is more merited.

How is this even controversial?

OMG you just won the internet to me today. Perfection. Yes. Yes. and Yes.

Been ruminating on this.

Maybe the more pertinent thing here is this - the language and attitude towards ww's is a symptom. It is not a symptom of hatred towards women, but instead a symptom of the lack of true kindness and support towards BH's.

I have seen this first-hand in recent memory. A BH was clearly stating his needs and was hammered at relentlessly for days about how that was not correct and in fact what he needed to do was [this]. IMHO, he was not being supported, he was told again and again how what he was feeling/wanting was not correct. There was some of the inflammatory language used towards his ww (full disclosure, I'd have to re-read to be sure, but I may have been guilty of some of that too).

Not sure if it's just me but IMO, I just don't feel like BW's are treated like that. If a BW says what they need, more often than not they get more support than argument.

So why does it seem to be that BH's don't receive the same level of basic kindness? Maybe that is the bigger question this topic has uncovered?

Every. Single. One. Could just as easily be accomplished with that same level of honesty gently and compassionately delivered.

Well, we must remember to be careful what we wish for.

If the swarming BS' start to more gently and compassionately and EFFECTIVELY land their message of "divorce now", the new BS' may just more gently and compassionately and QUICKLY, file for divorce.

Can we actually DEFINE what BURN THE WITCH actually is...?

Is there a member of the BTW group on this thread that can clarify the beliefs of this group?

To break it down, is BTW:

1. The philosophy of taking control of your situation, R is not an option with a WW, file for D and never look back

2. Shaming and hostility towards BHes who are seen as weak for not filing for D immediately

3. Dehumanizing the WW

4. Hating ALL women not just WW

Or some combination of the 4?

I don't think it's as complicated or sinister as many are making it out to be.

I don't post that much in JFO, in fact I don't post much on SI at all because by the time I confirmed my wife's affair, it had been over for 8 years which makes my situation quite different than most JFO posters. I posted my story in detail on a different infidelity website years ago and got the 2x4's I needed to snap me out of denial which I languished in for quite some time.

When I do post in JFO, it is almost always because the BH is in deep denial and making all the classic mistakes like pick me dance, etc. Helping to knock the WW off the pedestal that the BH had placed her on is sometimes necessary to keep the BH from making mistakes that will prolong his misery and pain. We don't hate all women or want or dehumanize WW's, but sometimes being plain spoken is better than holding back.

Most men are pretty used to rough language, and it's not like we won't think of those things on our own.

the new BS' may just more gently and compassionately and QUICKLY, file for divorce.

But why does anyone need to be TOLD, compassionately or otherwise, to divorce? It seems awfully patronizing to assume that a grown-ass adult isn’t capable of deciding for him- or herself that divorce is what they would like to do. Why a push to “DOITNOWNOWNOW!!!!”?

What I am going to do here is tell you that men (I am one) have a distinctly different way of conveying ideas. We are BLUNT and CRUDE as hell in the locker room or in male conflicts.

But this isn't a locker room, and why would you feel like you're in conflict with a man you're allegedly trying to help and support? This is a place where anyone might read. Hell, there's no tab asking about age, so even the occasional child might be reading along for all you know. It's super easy to be a Keyboard Cowboy when you can convince yourself that there are no real victims, but that's just not the truth.

I have to wonder if this is just common discourse like you claim, are ALL women treated with such crudity and disrespect, or just the ones you find to be in disrepute?

Well, we must remember to be careful what we wish for.

If the swarming BS' start to more gently and compassionately and EFFECTIVELY land their message of "divorce now", the new BS' may just more gently and compassionately and QUICKLY, file for divorce.

I think this statement assumes that I have a dog in that fight. I don’t.

I frankly don’t give two figs if a BS choses to R or choses to D. And I don’t particularly care how slowly or quickly they do it either.

What I DO care a lot about is that, whatever choices they may make, they make those choices from a centered, rational, considered, headspace. And to that end I would prefer it if the BS’ having to make those difficult, heartrending, life altering choices, didn’t have to make those difficult, heartrending, life altering choices under the added fucking pressure of being told that some combination of those choices that they have to make are somehow going to be seen as an overall indictment of their fucking masculinity.

And that, unfortunately, is all to often how it is framed. Saying shit like “grow some balls” or “go ahead and stay if you’re alright with being a cuck” Is some loaded fucking shit to say. Especially to someone already suffering from the kind of ego beating a new BS is already enduring.

And frankly (and this shit is gonna be fucking controversial) when I see things like that posted it always strikes me as kind of performative in nature. It seems like an over compensation, perhaps in response to lingering regrets or insecurities the poster may have about how they handled their own situation. And of course from there it’s just a hop skip and a fucking jump to becoming fucking competitive in nature. Let’s see who can be the toughest, who can take the hardest fucking line against WS’. You can see that shit in the weird almost hero worship that seems to swirl around certain posters that took the hardest fastest line to divorce.

But fuck it. I digress.

HT... DUDE.

HT, you have fucking nailed it (the "fucking" added in homage to you).

Let's remember one of the most lauded of the BTW-types was LtCmdrLost, a fake who was always ready to demonstrate his 'masculinity' on these boards.

Most men are pretty used to rough language, and it's not like we won't think of those things on our own.

Being accustomed to rough language isn't exclusive to men. Nor is the mind's ability to imagine the worst possible things our WSs could have done. Check out the Betrayed Womenz thread if you need proof.

But that doesn't mean we need to rub salt in the fucking wound! Being used to rough language doesn't mean we (all SI members of any gender) can't "read the room."

Like HoldingTogether, I often use fuck as a punctuation. Many of my posts and replies are heavily fuck-laden, and may include some pretty scathing remarks. But my replies in JFO are much more gentle. Because no matter their gender, a person in JFO is suffering a Trauma with a capital T. They don't need to be told to "man up," or whatever the female equivalent is. If they request some 2x4s, sure, go ahead and give it to them. But there is such a thing as a smooth 2x4, we don't need to use the 2x4s with jagged, un-sanded edges and rusty nails in them to boot.

When I came to JFO, I already knew my XH was a sex addict (had known that for years), and in addition to that, I had just caught him and his mistress in our bed, while my step daughters slept in the next room. Pretty fucking scandalous and terrible. I got varied reactions, some just telling me how disgusting he is and to cut and run, others who were more detailed in their advice and helped walk me through it. I would say there was compassion all around, but I definitely received a few 2x4s.

Then, in the first week after I started posting, some of the members here helped me connect some dots through calm back and forth discussion, not inflammatory crap. I discovered in real time that in addition to the masturbation/porn habit and the mistress that I knew about, my XH was also an active meth addict and had been hiring escorts and using NSA hookup sites for our entire relationship! Yes, someone managed to calmly, rationally bring up the fact that she thought my husband might be a meth addict, without completely eviscerating him, imagine that!

Several members commented on how my situation was one of the worst they had ever seen on this site. And yet, not a single person felt the need to describe in lurid detail all of the vaginas his dick had slid in and out of. They didn't talk about the vaginal fluid he was bringing home on said dick and then inserting into me. They didn't bring up how many times I had slept on sheets with some other woman's slime trails on them, in the name of getting me to "see the light". Maybe they thought I was a delicate flower and couldn't handle that kind of talk, I can't be sure, I'm not a mind reader. I can sure as shit tell you that my mind had already imagined each of these scenarios and many, many more. But I would like to think they didn't feel the need to discuss any of that BECAUSE I ALREADY FUCKING KNEW ALL OF IT AND I DIDN'T NEED TO KEEP RELIVING IT!

This is Surviving Infidelity for fuck's sake. Nobody stumbles upon this site on accident. We all know what we're fucking here for. Otherwise we'd all be happily chatting away on some site about bird watching, sports, scuba diving, gardening or whatever other totally normal hobby we enjoy that doesn't involve having our hearts, souls and bodies put through the wringer.

And, as an aside, anyone here that says they haven’t seen that shit is either not reading thoroughly or has so thoroughly acclimated themselves to that kind of thinking that it simply fails to fucking register with them. Because I can tell you that when I see some of that shit pop up in a thread it stands out bright and bold, it fucking stops me up short. I fucking notice it. (And no, I am not going to go and gather supporting fucking documents for anyone either. If the sheer number of members, both male and female, posting here about seeing it isn’t convincing enough then I can’t imagine there would be any fucking point)

^^^THIS! HikingOut has stated that she has received PMs from BHs who feel that this phenomenon is most definitely REAL, but refrain from posting in agreement because they fear being vilified for it. Men have posted in this thread that they see it too.

If I were to make a new anonymous account and post my entire story over again but changing the pronouns, I already know what I would be reading in the replies, and much of it would not be helpful or compassionate. A whole lot of "man up and move on" sprinkled with some very graphic descriptions of whatever she and her meth junkie APs were doing to each other, and a few "cucks" as a garnish. And that "man up and move on before you're emotionally ready to" thing is the toxic masculinity people keep mentioning. It's not that all masculinity is toxic. But some people weaponize masculinity, and that is toxic.

Telling men that they shouldn't still love their wives after everything she has done is toxic. Forcing a newly minted BH to read graphic descriptions of their trauma, or to attempt to filter their replies in order not to read it because "I'm just telling like it is," is toxic. Expecting a BH to react a certain way to infidelity and lambasting him for not conforming to those expectations is toxic.

Let me say that I am a woman, and I have many traits that might be considered stereotypically "masculine." I've ridden dirt bikes since I was about 6, and I love camping and hiking. I cuss, a lot. I'm pretty damn direct, blunt and opinionated - take your pick. I've played sports since I could walk, and was competitive in soccer for years, then the captain of my lacrosse team in high school. I don't identify as a man because I like these things. I am still very much a woman. A badass woman.

I also have a lot of feminine traits. I have hair to my waist, and I wear flowing caftans nearly every day. I enjoy hunting down vintage clothing and jewelry. I have a collection of gorgeous, mint-condition embellished high heels that I display proudly as book ends. I love to craft and have basically made a living out of it. I don't feel like any of those traits make me any less of the badass I already know that I am. I'm just a human, and none of those masculine or feminine traits make me any less human. A human who is allowed to like and dislike whatever I please, regardless of what's between my legs.

So why should we be treating BHs like they are less of a man because they don't fit in the stereotypically masculine box? What right does anyone have to determine they "need" the more blunt or even downright graphic replies to shake them out of it, just because they happen to be a BH? They're coming here during one of the most desperate time in their lives, and they're told they're "accepting life as a cuck"? What in the fucking fuck?

The point of all of that is, there are so many generalizations here about how "men are used to rough language" and "men are more blunt," like we should just accept those things as immutable facts and get over it. As if you don't have any control over it "because Y chromosome" *shrug*. I'm a woman whose bluntness rivals that of any man. I can be as blunt as a lead pipe when I need to be, but I also know how to turn that blunt knob down when appropriate.

If your teenage son came to you and said his girlfriend cheated on him, would you use the same language? What about if it was your teenage daughter? Do you smack them with a 2x4, or do you recognize that they are hurting and need compassion, not brutality?

You know that empathy we're always telling our WSs to practice? Practice what you fucking preach.

One last fuck for good measure. Fuck.

ETA: I posted before reading new replies, and HT, you are spot on. I'm with Ellie, mic drop.

And yes, I agree a lot of it is performative and/or competitive. Like GrayShades mentioned, LtCmdrLost was fucking worshipped for how decisive he was, and ended up being a troll.

[This message edited by HeHadADoubleLife at 4:04 PM, August 13th (Thursday)]

HHADL - I already posted the mic drop for HT, but fuckmerunnin that was all fucking brilliant...

It's not that all masculinity is toxic.

I'm afraid that I believe that less and less every day. If men would just be women, and just speak to one another as women do, it seems that most people think the world would be a better place. And maybe they are right, but I can tell you, what's actually happening, at least from my tiny corner of the world, is that men are being more and more policed on how they talk (even to one another, as per this thread) and what's coming out the other end is some truly toxic stuff. You get those same men in settings where they feel safe to "be themselves" and, wow, it all comes bubbling out over the top. We can suppress it, and we can make people, "toe the line" in public, but, IMHO, what's actually happening is that instead of changing men, it's actually becoming more weaponized because it's so suppressed.

I know, after reading this thread, my reaction is going to be to tread a little bit more lightly in BH threads. And then, very likely, because I won't feel like I'm actually saying anything, I'm just "toeing the line", I'll probably stop posting entirely. It's kind of the same reason I can't believe my spouse when she tells me the "A sex wasn't good", if you know someone is going to lie and give you the "right answer" there's basically no reason to ask the question anymore. Honestly, perhaps that the right thing for newly BH's, just feed them the party line, a nice, soft, loving and caring message and let them discover their own brand of awful.

I will, however, say for myself, my JFO thread was probably as bad as any I've ever seen here. It was all of it, "she cucked you", "man up", "you know she was a freak with him, right"; basically everything that people are pointing at as "toxic masculinity" here and, again, for me personally, I felt like "these people get it" they're talking to me the way I talk to other people when I have "knowledge to drop they need to hear". Look man, this is how it is, if you want the coloring book version, don't ask me; if you want the experience I have from being through this, I'll tell you. And I'll give you the stats on your situation if they exist. But no, if the right answer is this "fuzzy, right thing to say" well, guess what? Anyone can deliver that, I can write a bot to drop it on every male JFO thread if that would help.

Speaking for myself only, I'm eternally grateful to the dudes on another board who "dropped it, hard, straight and fast" because it helped me develop an action plan and realize what it is I was dealing with. It spurred me to action and got me to where I am today. Is it the right approach for anyone other than me? IDK. But I can tell you, it was the right approach for me, both here, and when dealing with addiction in my family; tell me what I'm dealing with, tell me how to fix it, and don't skip over the hard parts, in fact, dig in on them, because that's where I need the most help.

Rideitout man, you are way to smart for me to believe that you honestly think it’s a binary either or choice between: “fuzzy, right thing to say“ and “being an asshole”

I have never sugar coated a goddamn thing on this site. But I have also never purposely triggered another BH in the name of making him see the light. If you can’t make someone understand your point without beating him over the head with painful, targeted cruelty then you aren’t very articulate...

But here’s the thing, you are articulate. Very fucking articulate. And you are also smart enough to know that there are nuances between sugarcoating sweetness and light posts and full on assholery.

And to be clear. I can’t remember ever seeing the kind of shit I’m talking about in any of your posts. You are blunt and direct but I don’t think I’ve seen you directly being an asshole to another BH.

I don’t think anyone is talking about you man. So you keep on posting and being your lovable, cantankerous, stubborn, pedantic, long winded self.

If men would just be women, and just speak to one another as women do, it seems that most people think the world would be a better place.

I don't think anyone is saying grow a vagina and talk out of it. I think what is being said is that there is a vast difference between delivering truth in a direct, firm, and helpful way and delivering truth by insulting and brow-beating the BS. IMHO the latter isn't as helpful because a poster that is overly aggressive about throwing insults at a new BS is more often than not speaking to their OWN agenda. I think a lot of those posters sincerely believe they are helping (and not saying that some BS's don't appreciate that approach either), but there are cases I think, where that approach causes further hurt. And there are plenty of instances where an OP has asked for a softer approach or the aggressive approach is clearly causing distress and instead keeps getting the truth slaps. Direct is okay. Directness with no regard to the OP's feelings/mental state is not. Just my 0.02.

And also - this is a PUBLIC forum. I don't give two diddly shits how dudes talk to each other when they're out golfing or in a locker room (or in private messages). You do you playa. But in PUBLIC, basic decorum and politeness isn't too much to ask I don't think. That's not 'policing how men talk to each other' - that's asking for basic courtesy.

Like HT said:

It’s about reading the fucking room folks. If I am a BH venting and calling my wife a whore then I suppose I am inviting the group to pile on with the venting. But if a BH is here hurting and confused looking for support? How in the hell is it remotely helpful to go ahead and pile on a bunch of fucking reinforcement of all the horrible emasculating shit he is already fucking thinking about himself?

Im sure well intentioned men can just pm each other when they feel compelled to say something off colour . If the person responds with a “kindly tell me more this is exactly the stuff i need “ then feel free to freak the hell out on their thread otherwise assume normal programming

Ya know, I have brought up this topic many times. Years ago. And oftentimes I was very much castigated. I would do it in the actual JFO thread.

I have started a few threads, participated in many other threads started by others about this subject/topic. And, it is the same justifications.

I don't know if it is ever going to change. It seems the same to me, but maybe different players. But, I am so happy that there are so many bad ass, fierce, smart BW's and WW's in this club to carry on the battle. Many men, too. Great insightful posts from all genders. I really hope the message gets through.

But I have also never purposely triggered another BH in the name of making him see the light.

I don't think I have either, but, honestly, the deeper into this conversation we get, the less sure of that I am. This whole thread started with the "BTW" crew, of which, I kind of feel like I'm a member. I'm one of the few who stands up on posts that are really teetering on the line (at least in my eyes) and defends the actions of a BH, "burning the witch" and giving a BW whatever cummupence he feels is justified (outside of physical violence, of course, but that's also NEVER come up on a thread I've been involved in; so, for the record, that's a hard line for me).

But maybe I'm not, at least not as it seems to be defined here, because I'm not one to say the "She rode him like Seattle Slu" or anything like that. I'll often post, "If they were together, they had sex" and sometimes with a "you need to be ready for that" following it. But if a BH came here and was afraid his wife was going to clean him out in a D, I'd happily advise him how to hide and shift money around to try to stop that from happening, helping him "burn the witch" to the ground.

I guess, as I said before, I just don't have much sympathy for cheaters. I'm equally supportive to "burn the bastard" and, in fact, I'm quite sure I post more of that than "the witch", and given that I almost NEVER see a WH post on my threads, I kind of think that many of them give me a wide berth, they know how I feel about them, and I think a lot of them either see themselves in the stories I tell of cheating men I know (and hate the sight of it in the light of day) or alternately, are terrified their wives will see the mechanics and stated male motivations for cheating and kick their asses out. But I've always felt, in general (outside of affairs or SI) that I'm always kind of "female positive".

think it’s a binary either or choice between: “fuzzy, right thing to say“ and “being an asshole”

You know, the older I get, the less clear that line becomes. I'm really not sure anymore. I've mentioned before, I live in fear when I'm at work in mixed company because I really am not sure where the "line" is anymore. In mixed company, I just stick to the "known safe" because I just don't know anymore. I spend a lot of time, in mixed company, pretending I'm not there. I feel like the truth is often times not the right thing anymore, and since I really am not smart enough to keep track of lots of lies, I go mute.

long winded self.

Oh come on, that's not fair at all!

RIO, you are wrong as fuck about a lot of things, but you aren't who they're talking about, lol.

Agree^^^ though I don’t always agree with you and often don’t I don’t remember you rubbing it in to a new bs. I sometimes can’t believe things you say but that is a different brand of what we are talking about.

Oh come on, that's not fair at all!

From one long-winded poster to another... own it!