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Yes it is time to grow up. I told her last night the chance of D is very real right now. So even if she is not moving out to fully separate because of having to tell the kids, it may come to that anyways if we start the D process. I still think she has to miss me and know what life will be like without me. Have to do some hard work this weekend on my 180.

Dadtryingtocope,

Sorry you find yourself with a reason to be here.

First,

August 17 was my d-day. <snip> I have gone through all the emotions expected.

Sorry, but you have only begun. Many of us find we are on a roller coaster up emotions up and down for months. This is a marathon event, so be prepared.

So now she says she is not sure she wants to try and fix it because she is not sure she can have those feelings with me and doesn't want to hurt me again down the road.

If she means the head over heels "in looooove" feeling is a short lived response due to connection with new people. It is a biochemical behavior pattern, not mature love that has empathy and cares for another. It is just juvenile to expect that.

If she means true love, then the reason she did not feel that is within her. Recovering that love is a matter of communication with you, meeting each other’s needs, not fu*king another person. If she wants those feelings to come back, she needs to fix herself. She needs to find the reason why she looked outside the M for affirmation and thought it was OK. She needs to identify, own, and begin to address the issues within her that led her to having her A. Only after she is well on her way on that process can there be any real opportunity for R.

…or divorce I don't want to move too quickly. At least I have control.

I am glad to see you feel some control, you are not a victim. Give yourself 6 months to make a decision. Work on your healing, consider an IC for you to help work through your emotions, and assist with clarifying where you want your relationship with WW to go. Line up financial resources. Stay in contact with your attorney. Find things you like to do, friends for you. I got back to participating in hobbies and activities I had abandoned when I married. Do all of these things, then is 6 months look at where your WW is and make your decision. If she is still saying “poor me”, rug-sweeping”, and not the M partner you want and need, you will be in a better position to D. If she is owning her sh*t, working on fixing the M, and you want to wait to watch and see how things evolve you have not have wasted your time. New interests, some values clarification and personal introspection with an IC, and a firmer financial base are all good things.

We actually laughed together. She came to me and hugged me and cried for awhile.

Weeks and months after dday FWW and I had some wonderful times, we thought that we were the poster children for R. Our worse times came 1 year after dday when I ended up moring out for a while. FWW is now 2+ years into IC and still working on it.

As I said, this is a marathon event. The 180 is a good skill to practice. I would fall back to a 180 when FWW's issues started creating drama. IT was helpful to be able to detatch for a few days to a few weeks. Then, when she came around we would work towards R again.

Thanks. I know it is a lot of work and I don't want to feel like I am doing it all. That is why I need her to come to me and tell me she wants this. We both ride the roller coaster. And I know she is still working on herself. Her current concern is what everyone thinks about her, she says everyone hates her. Well that may be true of some people. But our true friends and family members that know don't hate her. They are extremely disappointed in her decision, they hate what she has done to me and what it could mean to the children. At the same time she has a chance to get forgiveness from all of the people that truly love her. But she has to own up to it, be remorsefull and spend sometime mending fences with them as well. I told her all this as well last night. She's in the me against the world stage. I get it. And I told her, if you don't keep up with the NC and you continue the A, then you may not get forgiveness from some maybe all of them. That is up to them at that point. Plus you have to put your concern into this relationship not those other ones. If you feel like you want to fix this one, get to work on this one first and then worry about the others. If people see you are doing the work and making it happen, it will be much easier for them to forgive as well. Like I said she might be turning the corner. I won't get my hopes to high, but I will monitor the situation. She did ask me this morning if I got any sleep last night. So for once she was asking about me.

Hoping for a good weekend. Need to keep my 180 working. Plan to leave at least one day with the kids so she can start feeling life without us and missing fun family events that we may not be doing in the future. I will make myself somewhat unavailable so its either her with the kids or me with the kids. But not much us with the kids. She basically knows where I stand on our relationship and I am waiting (but not forever) for her reaction to everything I've told her so far and where she is with her mind and feelings. Next move is hers (to some extent)

Protect your kids, you don't want to know how many "boyfriends" actually turn out to be "child molesters".

Where we stand currently is she has not stopped seeing the OM.

Which means that she and the OM are doing something harmful to both you and the children. This is ABUSE.

She said right after I found out that she would end it. But she claims she is having problems doing that. Our first two weeks were: she goes to counseling on Monday, I went on Friday, Saturday she runs off and sees him.

Again this is abusive behavior. It is also pretty common in affairs. People mentally don't seem to be able to end them easily.

I did the following: turned off her cell, told her to open her own bank account and buy a cell. Took her new car and gave her the old car to drive.

Good start. Protecting the family finances is part of protecting the kids.

Then I said we should separate and set up a schedule where we would cover the kids.

You should put the kids in daycare unless you can be there. What she is doing is destroying the family, if she is willing to engage in willful destruction of the family in a manner such as this, as opposed to a clean separation and divorce, then she isn't thinking clearly. YOU need to be looking out for the children till she gets her shit together, even if you are apart from each other.

She broke down that night and said she couldn't do that to the kids.

But, she is, so her actions speak volumes about very fucked up thinking.

I don't know what I should be doing now. Just sit around and wait for her to make a decision?

You go on with your life and raise your children. You don't "leave", you stay, you stand up for the family and the hopes and dreams and let her leave if that is what she does, but you don't leave. You don't give in to her on this issue either. Those kids need someone to stand up for them and their family.

One more thing, don't tell the kids anything till you are forced to do so.

Why?

You may forgive, her friends may forgive, her family may forgive, but your children may never forgive this. It tends to effect them for a long, long, long time and in their relationships later as adults.

Hi Dadtryingtocope

I still think she has to miss me and know what life will be like without me.

This is exactly what I'm thinking at the moment. I can't envision waiting and waiting for WH to make up his mind and decided what he really wants, it is too hard and too painful.

Good for you spending some time away this weekend with your little ones, I hope it goes well.

How is your 180 going? I'm struggling a little because I'm finding it hard to be the civil, 'likeable' person it requires. I want to shout, rave and rant - but I know this will achieve nothing

Fell off the wagon Friday night. Disappointed in myself. I took my oldest to her parents as she does not want to see her parents right now. They know everything and are understandably upset. So after that I can home and we too our youngest to dinner. So instead of me time it became family time. She had a couple glasses of wine and I drank water. I refuse to drink around her as it has lead to some bad circumstances the last few weeks. I am in a good place with the A because the OM is our of country until Wednesday. I fell off further by hanging out with her the rest of the night and that ended us up in bed. We haven't been together in about 2 weeks so their was a lot of sexual buildup. I know I should of held back.

Anyways dinner had more conversation although we had to tiptoe the discussion with our 7 year old there. A lot came out about the last 2 years of her unhappiness. No excuse for the A and she says that. Just her letting me know where she was. I told her it is also those things we need to focus on if there is a R. She commented that maybe she would be better alone and not married. I said maybe so and if that becomes your final decision let me know so I can do what needs to be done. She also said that she fears if we D that someone will come along and scoop me up and say "what the hell was wrong with her". I told her that is likely true. So if you don't want that to happen then you better start fighting for it. Of note since we are in this wierd semi separated phase, she has removed her rings. I choose to wear mine as I am still married and unavailable.

So this morning after all that had happened, I told her here is where I am at.

1. There has to be NC. I continue to state that and will reinforce my position. I need access to new phone, email and facebook. You can block his numbers to make life easier and block his email. I think you need to do these things prior to his return on Monday.

2. I need to know that you are committed to R and repairing this. Obviously I am already on board as it is best for our children and, I believe best for me. I know from your actions and words that you are not there yet. As a sign to me, when you put your ring back on your finger I know that you have control over the A and are committed to the R. Until then we are still in limbo and at some point, one of us will make a decision.

She really didn't respond to much of this. But I want to stay in control and this is my stance. At some point, you have to take a stand.

Thanks for all my support here. Even if you are just reading and listening to me rant.

If you are having sex with her, I do hope you are wearing a condom. Have you both been tested for STD's?

She commented that maybe she would be better alone and not married.

She is not ready for R, she's trying to find excuses to let herself off the hook.

Is the OM married? My suggestion is to expose his ass which will turn up the pressure on his end too. If she's not willing to commit to the M today, giving her time is only going to let her figure out how she can string this along.

Like we've said, it is a roller coaster ride and it is just starting so cut yourself some slack. You are taking the correct steps but will just need to be consistent and strong, which I know is very hard.

Protect your kids, you don't want to know how many "boyfriends" actually turn out to be "child molesters".

When I first heard this comment, I thought people telling me this were nuts. The statistics are freaking scary and your WW won't listen to you if you tell her. Through DivorceCare I learned that after the drama and the excitement of the A fizzles out, which is what it is feeding off of, it can turn to the kids for fueling that drama again. It still sounds insane for me to even write but after I heard it there, it was a wake up call to make sure I know where the hell my kids are at all times.

I can relate to the emotions that you're feeling. My WH and I reconciled 15 years ago after I discovered his 2 year affair. We had lots of counseling and he expressed remorse, but the signs were on the wall. I caught him again last week.

Please, please do not budge an inch. Your wife is not remorseful about hurting you and her primary concern is looking good for her family and her friends. If she is sincere,d she will completely have NC with the OM and do the right thing.

As for the dinner and sex the other night, please try to not do that again. I did it, too. It is easy and comfortable to fall back into things. As long as you tell her to " make her decision," she will be stringing you along. You make your decision for you and your kids.

I'm rooting for you. No one deserves this kind of pain. Been there, done that, doing it again.

[This message edited by UCLAMOM23 at 8:43 AM, September 8th (Saturday)]

Thanks all. I know I can't do that again. I need to stay on target. One problem for me is she has read the information here and knows I'm using 180. So she expects me to be removed. Plus we don't have a true separation, she is still in the house with me and the kids. As I have posted previous, she won't leave the kids she doesn't want to abandon them even though that what she was really doing with the A. I have my line drawn in the sand. She might think she is stringing me along but I won't let her. If she crosses that line and doesn't start working on us, I'm moving on.

Forgot to add. No the OM is not married. He is divorced and as I hear from other been playing with other marriage for years.

[This message edited by Dadtryingtocope at 11:30 AM, September 8th (Saturday)]

If she crosses that line and doesn't start working on us, I'm moving on.

She commented that maybe she would be better alone and not married. I said maybe so and if that becomes your final decision let me know so I can do what needs to be done.

I'm going to try to lay this out for you....YOU get to decide the future of the marriage. She already MADE her decision--how long has she been seeing OM and what was the nature of the affair?. By all rights (the Biblical ones included), she DESERVES to have her ass thrown out onto the street. She should be a whole helluva lot more grateful that you value your marriage enough to even be WILLING to give her another chance. Do NOT allow her to be all wishy-washy and "pine away" for her OM. That is just cruel, insensitive and downright disrespectful of you and your kids and your marriage.

But I am sure she is in contact with him still

How do you know this? And frankly, if you have already told her NC is an absolute requirement to remain married to you and she remained in contact with OM--well, there she goes again...showing you what HER choice is, KWIM?

She thinks she is turning the corner and is trying to get her head straight.

And ^^^this^^^ is also straight out of the WayWard Manual. I'm throwing the BULLSHIT flag on this. Listen, she keeps inviting you to her "pity party". Actually, right now, you are not even just an invitee...you are co-hosting the damn thing. STOP IT!!! Stop enabling her and stop coddling her.

She has had 3 weeks and spent many hours in discussion with you over this topic. It is time for her to (wo)man up and handle her business like a big girl. And if she is not willing to do that, then she needs to GTFO. Period. This limbo baloney is going to kill your soul and suck the life out of you.

she has removed her rings

^^^this^^^ is a very *triggery* topic for me, so I'm not gonna comment much about it. IMO, a WS should never, never, never remove their wedding ring. Did I mention *never*??!! If a WS wants to remain married....that ring better not EVER leave their finger. Absolutely Unacceptable.

Oh, and just a quick note about the 180 for you and whomever else may be reading about it.

The 180 is NOT to be used as a form of manipulation or as a *game*. It is YOUR way of finding the parts of you that you may have lost or given up during your marriage. It is a way to take back control of your own life so that you realize that your life won't be *so bad* if your marriage doesn't survive. It is a way for you to remove yourself from the confusion and drama that comes from being married to a foggy or broken WayWard.

It is your way of assuring yourself that you'll be okay. IF the result of that is that your WS *wakes up* and remembers what a truly awesome person you are and what they will lose if the marriage goes down the tubes? Well, that is an up-side. But it is NOT the goal.

So am I being manipulated at this time? We spent the day doing family stuff with the youngest - soccer games, pictures,etc. Then to the mall where she picked out clothes for me, now making me dinner. In some ways it feels like a normal day before DDAY. But according to my directions on the 180 I should not be spending time with her. I know this is no game. We are on the countdown until the OM returns to the States on Wednesday. I didn't tell her that breaking the NC would move us right to D but my line in the sand is if she continues to see him. So for instance if next weekend she gets weak and just goes there. Then I'm done. I'm torn, is she doing all this nice stuff to show me she is starting to turn the corner or is it just because he is not around and I'm all there is right now? I still feel like I have control because I can pull the trigger at any point. At the end of the day I didn't do anything wrong and she will pay for this if she continues with the A.

I agree with you gonnabe2016. She needs to get her crap together and be a big girl. She has big girl responsibilities. And just maybe I have been using the 180 to manipulate and that might be wrong. In actuallity one of my goals was to get her to gain some reality to see what was going to happen if she didn't starting owning her shit.

This is a tough time. Trying to read the whole situation and not get kicked in the gut again. But then again, I'm only taking one more kick.

So am I being manipulated at this time?

A *form* of manipulation, yes. Of the cake-eating variety. At this point, it seems that she wants the safety and security of you and to be able to put her kids to bed every night....AND she wants the "bright & shinies" that she gets from OM.

In a true 180, no...you would have hung with the other dads at the game and let her sit alone, you would NOT have gone to the mall together and you would not be eating dinner together at the table as a family. Let me *amend* the dinner thing....if you are trying to keep things on the down low right now as far as the kids are concerned....that's probably okay. BUT....focus your conversation on the kids and not her.

In some ways it feels like a normal day before DDAY

Look, I know how easy it is to want to shove all of this crap aside and have things be *normal* again. BUT your life is anything but normal right now. The point is....she is ALSO enjoying this *normal* life. You are allowing the cake-eating to continue. It would be a completely different story if she had 100% committed to YOU and your kids and your marriage, but at this time she hasn't done that. Therefore, NO fun family time for her. If she's not going to choose her family immediately? Well, then the family's NOT choosing her. I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across the way that it sounds in my head.

Have you mentioned the duration of the affair? Or the circumstances--EA/PA?

is she doing all this nice stuff to show me she is starting to turn the corner or is it just because he is not around and I'm all there is right now?

Well, first off....as you said "she's doing nice stuff". Keyword is STUFF. Stuff doesn't mean much too me, but that is just my personal opinion which is extremely cynical. I have an extremely horrific WH that I have allowed to be horrific for a whole lot longer than I should have.

As to your ENTIRE statment that I pulled out, it is just too soon to tell WHAT is going on in her mind. It is possible that she's just *killing* time until OM gets back.....or maybe this *is* her version of trying.

And again. You said that you were pretty sure that she was still in contact. Was that just you saying that so that if it was happening it wouldn't be so hurtful to you? Or do you actually have knowledge that she has been in contact with him?

Listen, DTTC. This situation sucks. Every.single.thing.about.it. You do not deserve to have a wife that cheats. Your kids do not deserve to have a mom that feels that having an inappropriate relationship with someone that is not their father is okay. And I KNOW that it is hard to read this stuff and type it out and actually SEE it in black & white.....it always seems so much more horrific.

But the only way to past it....is to go THROUGH it. Going around it (rugsweeping, denial, minimizing) won't work as a long-term solution. (and no, I don't believe that you are doing those things).

You seem to be okay with waiting to see what will happen once OM comes back into the States, as opposed to demanding that she commpletely commit herself back into the marriage right now....so you've got time. Nothing has to be done or decided right this very second.

Just make sure to take care of yourself. Eat, drink, take short walks, etc....

I didn't tell her that breaking the NC would move us right to D but my line in the sand is if she continues to see him. So for instance if next weekend she gets weak and just goes there. Then I'm done

I think that you absolutely SHOULD tell her that. A *mental* line in the sand is way too flexible. Verbalize it to her.....and THEN you have to follow through on it.

If you are absolutely sure that you will D if she contacts OM again (other than a NC letter which you go over before it's sent).....tell her exactly that. In a very clear and precise way that leaves NO loopholes.

You say to her, "WW, contacting OM is a dealbreaker for me. What that means, WW, is that if you attempt to email, text, phone, "accidentally" run into, or physically meet with OM...I will file for divorce immediately. It also means that you do not answer the phone if OM attempts to call you. You inform me immediately of ANY and EVERY attempt at contact that OM tries to make in whatever shape or form that attempt occurs. I have indicated my desire to reconcile our marriage, and so the choice is in your hands now."

Or something along those lines....I tend to lose my train of thought sometimes because my text box is so small .

Anyway, what that very explicit statement does is, it tells her very clearly what the *new rules* are and it lays out very clearly what the consequence will be.

And then if she breaks NC or hides contact from OM from you, it will be HER choice. She did it knowing that she was breaking the rules.

BUT...and this is a HUGE BUT!!! Do NOT set boundaries or rules that you are not fully prepared to enforce and follow through with the consequences that you have laid out. So if you aren't comfortable with the decision that just ONE contact with OM means divorce....then don't threaten it. Because then you're stuck. You either have to follow through on the divorce thing OR she knows that you don't really mean what you say. And That, my friend, is when the really-not-so-much-fun stuff starts.

Dadtryingtocope,

gonnabe2016 is giving you GREAT advice, I have nothing to add other than "ditto".

Making nice without your WW doing the difficult work of ripping off the scabs and dealing with the underlying wayward issues is rugsweeping.

She believes that if she is nice and attentive to you, then you will be nice and forgiving to her. Same dynamic as her thoughts that if you had been a better, more attentive H, then she would not have had to turn to OM to have her needs met.

Her doing nice things is not empathizing with your feelings, not maintaining NC long term, not fixing, improving herself.

180 is for you. Spend the next few (3 - 6) months working on you, your life and your kids. Watch to see what her actions are long term.

Thanks gonnabe2016. I did exactly that tonight. I told her that if there was any contact I should know about it immediately. I said truthfully you should block his phone, email, etc. If you want me to do it I will be happy to but you doing it will give me piece of mind that you are on board. Then I did say that if you see him again (and of course I would need to somehow find out) then I am done. The line in the sand has been drawn.

Your advice is good and I re-read the 180 post here. While I haven't separated myself from her, I haven't been thinking too much about everything else. So I have been in a good place. At least today busy with activities, even though she was there for some of them. I'm not spending much time with her tomorrow so that will reinforce my time and my time with the kids. She will miss out on a fun day with them although she may take it as a welcome break too. So maybe counter productive.

I know I am kind of waiting out the return of the OM and to see what happens. But I've drawn my line in the proverbial sand and she knows it. I said the next kick in the gut is my last.

She sees me somewhat as being secure right now because OM is not in country. And to some extent that may be true, but I also have set my limit now. I realize what that will do to my family and my kids, and it has been the reason she hasn't left to separate (she doesn't want to have that conversation with the kids) but now she knows if she doesn't turn it around, she's having that conversation with them.

Listen, I love her. I know I have no reason to love her. Some of our friends that know ask me how I can put up for this long. I just look on this website and I see a whole lot of people just like me so I know I'm not the only one doing it this way. But at least I've learned from all of you that I don't have to continue to take shit and get strung along. And now she knows that too. My anger has been put aside and I am of clear mind (at least that's what I believe). I like to have a plan and for the short term I have one. So I guess that puts me in control of me at least.

Indeed you should not take shit, etc. But it is understandably easy to overreact and be mean and cruel.

Your mindset should be focused on:

1. Firmness. Like a teacher or principal. You are dispassionately kind but have rules that are not flexible.

2. Patience. She is confused and addicted to a fantasy. She is not rational. You will have to wait it out. Like Atlas holding up the world.

3. Compassion. You are looking at a poor woman about to throw so much away for so little. Ho can one not pity that?

No anger, no begging, be strong.

Mariagebuilders.com has some good advice to round out the zeitgeist here.

We are all pulling for you.