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Mouth kept shut,

I certainly don’t wish to cross guidelines. Which is why I reverted back to the original question.

Green eyes,

I wasn’t trying to call you out at all with respect to the religious thread guideline, I was just referring to the thread in general. Sorry if you took it as me accusing you specifically of breaking a rule. I just wanted to clarify the venial/mortal sin thing as, say, other Christians may not view it the same way.

Mouth kept shut,

No, not all felt like you were calling me out. I was trying to explain and it does get deep and I certainly would never offend anyone, or cross guidelines.

It’s sunday, I am in grief for reasons unshared. I hope I didn’t offend anyone.

I’ve been wondering about this also. My H was raised Christian. We brought our children and family up in church. h even started a bible study before work.

I wonder what these coworkers would think now? He refuses to attend church. He’s mad at god. Started drinking again. And cheating. Now left me. He’s going thru some big stuff.

I think it depends on their actions and circumstances. Once can be a mistake. A breakdown of morals. When it continues and the lies with no remorse. It’s hard to believe they live by Christian standards. Now I’ve learned H is alcoholic and NPD. Which is to blame? What is real? Who exactly is he? I hope he finds his way back. I won’t be watching.

A Christian can sin just like anyone else. The key though is they should always have remourse for what they've done if they don't then.....

It’s sunday, I am in grief for reasons unshared.

Hi Greeneyesbluezy, sorry you are hurting today. Sending best wishes for a better day tomorrow.

I think your question goes much deeper that it first appears, so please bear with me as this is going to be long...

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

This is quite an amazing statement -- God's image isn't just a singular person, but multiple and includes built-in relationship. That dynamic is love itself and was meant to exist between man/woman and between humans/God. This is the way things were created to be. This is what marriages are meant to reflect. This is at the core of what Christianity teaches and points toward.

But humans chose to abandon love and to pursue self-centeredness. In fact, they betrayed God and tried to take his place. This broke the relationship between God and humans and the consequences led to a very broken world. Many of the failures and repeated breaks in relationship were captured over and over in the Old Testament as things spiraled downward. This is the world we live in today -- broken.

Jesus came to make a path for reconciliation between a rebellious humankind and a loving God. He forcefully confronted the religious leaders and the rules they had setup which were burdensome and missed the entire point -- which was "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" Jesus came to help restore the broken relationship between humans and God by pointing to love as the key and by paying the penalty of our betrayal.

Christianity, very simply, is the good news that God wants to forgive/reconcile and has provided a way for it to happen. What is asked of us is that we own up to our rebellion, turn away from our self-centered ways, be humble, accept His love and love him in return. It is a gift. It is about relationship. It is about love. This is absolutely central to Christianity.

Can a person be a true Christian and cheat?...I’m trying to determine if my wh is saved, or ever was saved at all or if it was just all a big farce.

Unfortunately, there is a lot that isn't central to (or even part of) Christianity that can end up getting in the way and making things more difficult than they need to be. This is why I believe your question doesn't have a quick answer. Just like some of the religious groups during Jesus' time, people today have attempted to layer on additional thoughts/rules/interpretations to scripture and there is disagreement between groups on various rituals, doctrines, etc. "True Christian" and "is saved" are a couple of terms that are more connected to the layers that people have put into religion. Some believe that once a person is saved, they are always saved -- that is what gives rise to the whole thought of whether a person was a "true Christian" or was ever saved in the first place after some sin has been exposed. There are many other beliefs around how being saved works and the arguments around these things have gone on for centuries. IMO, these things all too often become a tangential discussion that ends up missing the main point altogether. I think that what you asked is somewhat of a loaded question due to all of this, so I think it is important to go back to the very beginning of things to get the answer. (ETA -- I don't mean any disrespect if you hold to a particular doctrine or belief on salvation and I certainly don't want to turn this conversation into a discussion of religion itself)

I think it all comes down to love and relationship. An affair is a break of love and relationship, so being involved in one is a betrayal of both God and a spouse. It is an outward indication that self-centeredness has taken root and that love isn't being practiced. It is a heart issue.

After Dday, some WS's will end up seeing how they abandoned real love to chase after something that was counterfeit and then decide to be humble, admit their failure, work hard to change and ask for help/support. Others, to some extent or another, won't and that will become apparent down the road. One can work at love or one can try to fake it while being self-centered. I've seen actions in others who profess to be Christians that indicate both paths. Some have failed and this becomes an event where they recognize their need to change. Some have all the external appearances of being a Christian, but have a hidden side and refuse to face their lack of real love even after experiencing a Dday. It is very, very difficult to really know where someone stands with God until you are close to them and even then it can be difficult to see where their heart really stands. (ETA -- unfortunately, with my W having been a serial cheater and since many of the APs were "Christians", I've seen more than I care to on how the aftermath can play out)

I'll speak for myself and my wife as an example. Both my W and I were raised in the Christian religion and came to call ourselves Christians at a young age. In the eyes of others, everything looked fine on the outside even after there were multiple Ddays (we kept them well hidden). However, both of us would say that the last Dday was a pivotal moment in our faith. It took that last Dday for my wife to realize that she was out of control, that she was manipulating others in an attempt to get a feeling of validation for herself, to see that her underlying needs for validation came from her FOO (family of origin) and that she was trying to get love from men instead of God. It took that last Dday for me to recognize the codependency within me -- the thought that sacrificing for others was "Christian" when, in fact, it was an attempt to pursue getting the love I wanted from others (all stemming back to my own FOO) while it displaced God. The last Dday awoke both of us to the dysfunctional paths we were on and has led to deep changes in both of us. While we may have appeared to be Christian on the outside and we both would have claimed to be Christians, in hindsight, we both were missing the mark.

Based on my own perspective and experience, I don't think that the emphasis belongs on whether your WH was/is saved, but on whether he is being "saved". In fact, I'd prefer to use another term (e.g. reconciled) because all too often "saved" can focus on self-centered things like obtaining eternal life, living in a heavenly mansion, etc., instead of on the restoration of love/relationship. Regardless, right now you know that your WH's relationship with God and with you is broken due to the A, so he is at a point where God's invitation to reconciliation is very relevant. The question is whether your WH sees that, is troubled by what he has done, owns it and takes the necessary steps to reconcile/love.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 10:31 PM, June 24th (Sunday)]

Another scripture that remains me of him is the one about how at the end of the world, God separates the sheep from the goats. And quite frankly, the goats are surprised to hear they are goats. Their whole lives they were deluding themselves that they were following God. Yet at the end , God says that them, “Away from me, I know you not.”

I think unrepentant people caught in adultery are goats.

freetogonow...

Why is there no 'mercy' mentioned. I think we humans need to stay out of the judging department.

You brought up a great topic. And thank you for that.

Mercy is allowing him to live, thus giving him many opportunities to repent. Mercy isn’t overlooking sin. God paid a steep price to redeem the repentant. He doesn’t overlook sin.

If a judge lets a criminal who isn’t even sorry for what he’s done go free, do we praise that judge for being merciful? No. We say that’s a terrible judge. God would be a terrible judge if there wasn’t a price to be paid for sin. Jesus paid that price. That’s mercy. That’s how the repentant are set free.

Has the point been made that Biblical adultery does not include a married man sleeping with a woman other than his wife, unless that woman was also married (to someone else)?

I don’t know where you get that from. Adultery is sex outside of marriage. Nowhere is scripture is it limited to two married people only.

I recently heard a pastor preach on this in a way I have not heard before. He drew a line across a board and had different behaviors charted as Christian and non-Christian. Some examples were cheating vs faithful, patient, angry, etc.

He told everyone to mentally chart their behavior. He said If most of your behavior is truly on the sinful side, then you need to face that in reality you say you are a Christian but you are not. Ouch.

From my point of view, cheating isn’t a stand alone. My H was also acting in many other harmful and non-Christian ways. I don’t believe you can be so far from ‘Christlike’ and still be close with the Lord. Sin will come between them and they drift away IMO. They may go through the motions but their heart is not in it.

Can you be saved? That is a different question.

Christians who are actively practicing their faith do not cheat. By practicing I mean, those who are truly living out what it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - they spend time with Him, they study His word and are obedient toward it, they allow His Holy Spirit to guide and direct their lives, they have other believers in their lives holding them accountable, etc. I believe practicing Christians may have fleeting thoughts of another person, but they are quick to remove them. They examine their consciences regularly and obtain help in removing what is unholy when it is revealed to them.

Then there are people who may have at one time made a decision to follow Jesus, but left themselves wide open to temptation because they neglected their relationship with Him. Maybe their conversion wasn't real to begin with, or maybe they made lots of little concessions in their lives that allowed them to move slowly further and further from God until they ended up in a place they never thought they'd be.

The book of James speaks to this, telling us that we have to be so careful to keep ourselves from temptations and things that would pollute us. Those who are Christians and who are not actively pursing a lifestyle that is set apart and pleasing to God are leaving themselves wide open to all kinds of problems - affairs included.

I do not believe a person can truly be a Christian and think it is OK to continue in a lifestyle of adultery. 1 John 3:9 tells us no one who is truly God's child makes a practice of sinning. I'm not talking about committing a sin from time to time, feeling guilty about it, and then genuinely confessing and asking for forgiveness. I'm talking about PRACTICING sin ... meaning continuing to do it even when confronted with the fact that they are sinning. David, when confronted with his sin, was broken and repented of it.

Can a person be a true Christian and cheat?

There are as many definitions of "true Christian" as there are people who claim to be Christian.

In my experience people who believe in god(s) believe in whatever suits them.

Bluntly - nice people think their god is nice, people who are regarded as uncaring POS's tend to believe in a god of the worst, OT, psychopathic nastiness.

So; I suggest that the answer to your question is yes - if the person defining "true Christian" chooses to believe it so.

Full disclosure - I grew out of my parents' religious beliefs as I entered my teens - being a non-believer not only, IMO, makes sense - it also makes life a d**n sight simpler sometimes.

Let’s look at Christians and history.

Priests - pedophile scandals - broke their vows of celibacy and more. Parading as holy men no less.

Ministers - how many famous ministers (Jim Baker to name one) had scandalous affairs?

Churches were founded by rulers who wanted to divorce and marry another.

Christians and followers of Christianity were murders and thieves and prostitutes and sinners in the Bible and in present times.

Being a Christian does not stop people from cheating. Just like spied limits don’t stop drivers from speeding. Unfortunately.

freetogonow... excellent question.

I would like to respond with another question: can someone call themselves a (true) Christian if they refuse to forgive those who have hurt/betrayed them?

Eta: I don't mean this to sound flippant, I'm sorry if it came across that way.. it's sincere 💛

[This message edited by IceThee at 2:27 AM, June 26th (Tuesday)]

Camus once said that Christianity in one sense was like a laundry service. Whatever the sin just apologize and everything is cleaned.

The short answer is no. Perhaps someone can through remorse become a Christian after committing adultery.

But while they are in adultery - no. To think otherwise is to think what we do does not matter.

And no it matters not one damn bit what someone says they are.

[This message edited by redsox13 at 1:05 AM, June 26th (Tuesday)]

I believe a true Christian understands that adultery is wrong and repents from that sin. Anyone that has a LTA is double minded and the Bible has things to say about that.

In my case MOW continued to go to church and recieve communion durning the 20 plus years of the affair. I believe the devil has a good hold on both of them.

I believe in spiritual warfare, in cases like adultery the devil has taken over.

RIDEITOUT I agree with you.

Old time religion meant you walked the walk or you went to hell. Then religious leaders realized that nobody was walking the walk and because they didn't want to be told they were going to hell all the time they stopped participating in religion and stopped forking over money. This wouldn't do so they cooked up the new testament. Along comes Jesus. Under the new time religion all sins are welcome. Do whatever you want as long as you occasionally tell the big boss you're sorry all will be forgiven. Oh yeah, and he still needs money. A lot of it. Apparently the omnipotent creator of the universe is cash-strapped.