SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

How are you going to R with someone who won't or can't do what is needed and threatens to ruin your life if you D? She is a terrorist, and your behavior is trying to understand and win over the terrorist. That's not possible.

I get she needs to fix herself. I have told her many times.

This is the problem. Stop telling her. She has books. She will have an IC. Let her do the work and step back. Focus on yourself. Focus on your kids. That way if she does do the work, YOU are in a better place to work on the marriage. And if she doesn't do the work, YOU are in a better place to move on without her.

That is the problem. My job meant always fixing things, some short term, some long term. So it is incredibly difficult to let someone else fix it. Add in emotions and it becomes a bigger problem

So today we decided to grab a sandwich and go to the lake and talk. I wanted to go over the timeline again as some things had come out that were not in there,

So what really came out is that it was not so much sex driven, by her, but by him, but more of she felt, he couldn't give her up and that made her feel good, like he couldn't give her up. Also that she could please someone much younger than her sexually. I found out that she did not get they "O" as much as I thought but that was not what was important to her. It was more important that she could please him and he thought she was attractive / sexy

So here I sit knowing I coudn't convince my my wife she was sexy and she had to find it from someone else.

That is the crux of the problem

FTW

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 9:20 PM, May 29th (Friday)]

So I guess my biggest problem is I believe in people. I thought she would realize what she did and try to correct it> Found out tonight that is not the case. Fuck this, I don't care anymore

Tonight I saw the real her. It had really nothing to do with him. just us. It was ugly. I guess the wake up call I needed

No, what I think is nothing really matters. It is what it is and I can't change that

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 10:03 PM, May 29th (Friday)]

The way you describe the interaction tonight is a little unclear. Of course you are under no obligation to be clear to us. But it will help us help you.

Are you saying she told you she feels more emotionally and physically for the OM? Does she still feel that way? Did she seem like she cared how painful that and other aspects of the affair are to you?

Is it not important to her that you find her attractive? Was that not and is it still not important to her?

Is she taking ANy steps to help you heal? Or is it all just cold and matter of fact. If the latter then perhaps it’s time to end spending time together.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:38 PM, May 29th (Friday)]

No matter what happens with your WW, you would really benefit from an IC. Her problems are not yours to fix. Her affair had nothing to do with how you made her feel. You're taking responsibility for things that aren't your burden AND are impossible for you to solve which I know leads to a massive shame spiral in the future. Take on someone else's problem -> inevitably can't fix problem because they have to be the one to fix it -> Guilt, blame, and self loathing. You can see how toxic that is, right? Get help fixing yourself first and foremost.

180, 180, 180 and work on yourself in IC. You have got to learn to detach.

Achilles,

I am sorry that you are going through this. It is rough, and I wish we could take the pain of this away for you.

So here I sit knowing I couldn't convince my wife she was sexy and she had to find it from someone else.

Like a lot of people who have been in relationships for a long time, your wife took you, the marriage, and the family for granted. She stopped seeing and valuing what she had because she was so used to it.

What she says about her affair is not the truth of it. It is what she chose to project onto it.

She created a self-serving fantasy to turn something cheap, tawdry, callous, and damaging to other human beings, into proof that she was an incredibly sexy fox who is so stupendously great at sex that she drove a younger man so mad with desire that he would happily trample all over his wife and child to get to her.

It was a form of mental and emotional self-medication - and basically delusional - but it is a fantasy with no basis in reality that many women who cheat create for themselves, because they want it to be true.

Over the years, I have heard a few guys who have had affairs with married women talk about them. They have no respect for the women, because the women have no respect for themselves, so the guys have no problem bull-shitting them.

Words are free, but they are the currency of affairs, which opportunistic men pay to any woman who is willing to exchange herself for them. It is the women who choose to believe the words and give them value, not the men who spray them out like a farmer spraying his fields with manure. Bullshit makes crops and affairs grow.

And the women receiving those aromatic words never question them, because questioning them would burst the fantasy bubble that they want to live in.

The guys I knew who described their experiences of affairs with married women were people I worked with. And yes, although I was younger at the time, I was not unaware that guys bullshit other guys as much as they bullshit women. However, the stuff that I thought was probably true was not anything outlandish or ego-driven, but the things that showed how mundane the affairs were.

For example, in one situation, I knew one of the women involved. She was nothing special to look at, and not 'sexy' in any way. I asked the guy having the affair with her what he liked about her, and he said something like, "She's alright". Nothing more than that, and he said it with all the enthusiasm a guy might put into describing a cheese sandwich.

One time, another guy we worked with asked him about the sex, in the way that guys do. Instead of claims of wild kinkiness, or window-rattling passion, the guy said, "It's okay. You know, it's sex".

When pressed by the other guy we were with to explain why it was worth bothering with something that sounded so mediocre, the lacklustre lothario said words that have stayed with me for decades. He said, "It's sex. It's available. It's free. Why would I say no?"

Do you suppose that the woman in question ever thought that her attraction was based on her availability and lack of financial cost? Does any woman in an affair ever consider that?

Do you suppose any man having an affair ever says something that honest to the woman he is having the affair with? Of course not! And yet, I have heard variations of "She was there, and it was free" from a few guys in the years since I first heard it.

So when your wife says this...

So what really came out is that it was not so much sex driven, by her, but by him, but more of she felt, he couldn't give her up and that made her feel good, like he couldn't give her up. Also that she could please someone much younger than her sexually. I found out that she did not get they "O" as much as I thought but that was not what was important to her. It was more important that she could please him and he thought she was attractive / sexy

...what she is describing is her selective, self-serving interpretation of a dynamic where she turned herself into an available source of free sex for a man who clearly has no respect for her or his wife.

And because of that absence of respect for women, he is very likely capable of treating the women in his life like idiots, and telling them whatever nonsense they want to hear. And your wife believed it because she wanted it to be true, not because it really was true.

He couldn't give her up? More self-serving delusion. How about a more honest take on it?

An opportunist with no respect for women did not want to give up an available source of free sex. That takes the shine off the fantasy, doesn't it? Which is why your wife is so resistant to any suggestion that her affair partner was using her. She doesn't want to let go of the fantasy that she cloaked the affair in, like expensive wrapping paper around a dime store gift.

The point of this long ramble is that no man or woman can compete with a delusional fantasy created in the mind of another person.

The affair was never, at any point, what your wife describes it as having been. Her affair partner's true motivations are not what your wife chose to project onto him. Was she really so amazingly pleasing to her affair partner, or did she simply choose to believe the bullshit that an opportunist with no respect for women chose to tell her to keep on the hook?

Tonight I saw the real her. It had really nothing to do with him. just us. It was ugly. I guess the wake up call I needed.

I am sorry that things became unpleasant, but I think you need to move away for the 'just us' school of thought. The truth is that it was 'just her'.

You were in the same marriage, and you did not cheat. If she perceived problems in the marriage, she could have discussed them, she could have suggested MC. And she could have questioned how many of the problems she identified were down to her and her treatment of the marriage and you.

Instead, she dodged that responsibility and chose to live in a fantasy bubble for four years, telling herself and everyone around her lies.

When a person chooses to take independent, destructive action like that, there is not a lot that their partner can do about it. You sound like a decent and loving guy. Had you been told about problems, you would have moved heaven and earth to fix them. You yourself say you are a born problem solver.

You were not given the opportunity to work on or fix any of the problems your wife may now be throwing at you, so your wife has no right to complain about them or play the victim. She turned issues into problems by not talking to you about them.

There seems to be an element of aggression in your wife's attitude now, going by what she says to you, and her declaration about fighting you in a divorce.

I believe that your wife's attitude is based on more self-serving fantasy. She projected a load of falsehoods onto her affair partner, to cast him as a drooling slave who was helplessly in thrall to her, and there is a chance that she is applying the same process to cast you as the bad guy, because if you are not the bad guy, the finger points at her.

There is a saying: "You can't negotiate with crazy". The same could be said about negotiating with fantasists. So I think that the members advising you to detach and pull back are absolutely right.

When you engage with her fantasies and unreality, you are actually giving them fuel, and making them more real by treating them as if they are. And you are wasting your energy if you buy into them, because a fantasist will repeatedly 'move the goalposts' as we say in the UK.

In fact, maintaining a state of flux and constant change can be a pre-requisite to making a person susceptible to manipulation. It prevents you from ever feeling like you are standing on solid ground. And the constant movement prevents you from ever feeling like you are ever at a point where you can make a decision, because you never know what is going to happen in the next few hours, days, or weeks.

Essentially, it suits a manipulative person to keep someone else spinning, and they do that via their words and actions, which swing to and fro and change from one day to the next.

That is why detaching from that process and not engaging with it is the best course of action.

It allows you to find your own solid ground to stand on, rather than waiting for your wife to provide it.

It allows you to think things through logically and pragmatically, with a sound foundation in the real world, rather than trying to bend your thought processes around an ever-changing bundle of fantasies that were created to serve someone else.

The reason you sometimes struggle with the things your wife says is not because you have no emotional intelligence, but because 95% of what she says is delusional nonsense, designed to exonerate her from any responsibility for the state of the marriage, or her choice to have an affair.

Your wife will not engage with the reality of the life she has created, and she has no clear plan for the future. She seems to live from one hour to the next, one moment lashing out, the next going for a picnic with you.

Step away from that merry-go-round, Achilles. It will only make you dizzy. Get yourself into IC, and have faith in your own judgement and ability to discern between reality and hogwash.

You will get through this, Achilles, and we will do our best to help you do that.

Spot on, M1965! Great post!

Read it over and over again until it sinks in, Achilles.

Ok, I will give it a go and see if I can explain.

Stevesn,

Are you saying she told you she feels more emotionally and physically for the OM? Does she still feel that way? Did she seem like she cared how painful that and other aspects of the affair are to you?

No not what I am saying. Just that that was the motivation for the affair. That she needed to feel attractive and was pleased that she could please and was wanted by a much younger man.

Yes she seems to get how much she hurt me. She seems to care how much she hurt me.

As far as steps to make me heal has done some important ones.

nekonamida,

I hear you, I am trying. I want that for myself

OIN,

I understand, but implementing that is another story.

M1965,

I hear what you are saying. It is hard to hear your wife was used by an opportunist. That she bought into that and believed it, She did, wholeheartedly because she had a hole in herself

You say she is going to start with a psychiatrist. I’m more used to WS’s working with a psychologist and then going to a psychiatrist if meds for depression, anxiety etc. are needed to be prescribed.

Anyway, do you know if the psychiatrist specializes in Infidelity and how to rebuild after? That would be important to find out.

I’m still hoping you are communicating to her a desire to rebuild but that she has to drive that possibility, not you. That is you are the one pushing her to do these things that reconciliation is not likely to succeed. She has to have the desire for you and to be with you to make this happen. If she does not, then you both are wasting time.

Does she really love you enough to make that happen. Can she find in her the empathy for how her actions were worse than firing a bullet into your heart. Can she help you in your healing process and dedicate herself to that and finding what was missing in her. Can she figure out how to make you feel safe for the next 40+ years? Can she see the man who she conspired with to damage her husband as a piece of shit and not think of their time together as fond moments in her past?

These are all the things she will need to commit to. And you should communicate to her that if she cannot, then you need to move on in order to heal on your own.

We really want you to be on a path to eventual happiness and not in perpetual limbo. That is our goal. We want to try and make it yours as well. If she does commit then great. We’ll help you navigate that process.

But her fighting back when you speak the truth about how much pain you are in and telling you she will fight you every step of the D process are the antithesis of being a supportive, caring and loving remorseful wayward wife. I’d recommend letting her know that.

She is going to see a psychiatrist due to what happened to her as a child. She was supposed to go back to therapy when she became an adult and again when she had kids. She thought she had it under control so never went back. She obviously did not have things under control.

I think that what allowed her to have the affair and was also holding her back in the the aftermath was not wanting to admit that she did not have what happened to her under control. She is finally admitting that and things are changing. She still has her moments (she's always been a bit of a hothead), but seems more insightful lately.

I have told her that she needs to show me that she is actively trying to help me heal. I believe she still loves me and she constantly tells me that in addition to doing nice things for me.

She has a journal that she is writing in and shares with me. It has the timeline and apology letter in it among other things. She has been writing one letter to me a week based on the subjects you have suggested.

Yes she now seems to see what a POS AP was and how she was used by him (willingly). She has expressed a strong desire to move foreword.

A little context in the fighting me in D. It was said in the midst of a huge argument when lots of nasty stuff went back and forth, although that seemed to sting the most for me

Achilles,

It is hard to hear your wife was used by an opportunist. That she bought into that and believed it, She did, wholeheartedly because she had a hole in herself.

A thousand apologies for any pain my post caused. I had a kind of tunnel vision when I was writing it, developing the theme, but I can see how hard it must be to think about a person you love and want to protect being involved with an exploitative person.

I have never had an affair, but from what I have read, and from what people who have had affairs have told me, there is a dynamic of mutual 'using' or exploitation. Sometimes a person may claim that they were somehow misled or manipulated into having an affair, but ultimately, people choose to have affairs.

What I was trying to explore in my post was the element of self-brainwashing that people engage in while having an affair. That results in a state of mind that is sometimes called 'the fog'. It has been likened to being drunk/high, as well as to an addiction.

That is why it can be hard to get someone to abandon the narrative they created about the affair, and the things they told themselves to make it okay to have the affair.

From what you have described, it sounds to me like your wife is in the early days of the process of letting go of the fantasy world she created.

That can be very hard for people to do, and I hope that her psychologist/therapist will guide her through the process. People can do it, but they can be quite resistant at first, and that is what I believe is causing your wife's aggressive/vindictive outbursts.

She is coming down from a four-year high, and the hangover is not bringing out the best in her.

It is clear that you love your wife and feel very protective of her. And it seems like you are not letting her off the hook about digging into the process she used to enable herself to have the affair.

Patience will be required in this journey, and it is important as you work towards restoring a healthy dynamic to the relationship that you do not lose sight of your own identity. What I mean by that is that you should not transition into the role of parent-doctor-guardian.

I apologize if that sounds patronizing or condescending. I wrote that because with my first girlfriend, who through time manifested problems with self-harm and cutting, I mentally transitioned from being a boyfriend to becoming some kind of male nurse/guardian/indulgent protector.

At the time, I thought it was the 'right' thing to do. However, as I made that transition, I lost my identity as a boyfriend and the expectations of fidelity and honesty that went with that identity.

I became so focused on 'fixing' my girlfriend that I totally lost sight of myself, and what I need to be receiving back from my girlfriend as a boyfriend. The relationship became one where I gave a lot more than I received, which was not healthy for either of us.

In essence, I mentally created a license for my girlfriend to behave badly because she was 'troubled'/ill/'not herself'. That was counter-productive, because after she emerged from from a few weeks in a hospital where her mental issues were being dealt with, she had a pointless one-night stand with a guy who lived in the nurses' hostel where she lived.

She confessed, and at first I kept telling myself, "She's not 'right', she's 'fragile', she's 'troubled'". And I tried to turn a betrayal into something more acceptable by making excuses for her.

Then, finally, I started looking at what she had done from the perspective of being her boyfriend, and what I had a right to expect from her, and I started to feel angry.

After a couple of months, we broke up, because trivial arguments always developed into major blow-ups because I kept going back to the one night stand, and feeling angry and wronged by it, and by her.

As I look back, I think breaking up was the right thing to do at that point in our lives. We were both young, 21, and we were still figuring out who we wanted to be. For you and your wife, things are very different, because you have a lot of history, as well as children. It would be a lot to walk away from, and your desire to salvage the relationship is entirely understandable.

The point to this post, beyond my apology, is that identity is the key thing to focus on in this journey with your wife: who does she want to be in future, and what do you - as her loving husband rather than her guardian/male nurse/protector require from her.

Those are the things that will become the foundation of the post-affair dynamic that you create between you, so it is important for both of you to be honest, and for you to assess whether your wife is capable of giving you the things that you need as her husband.

M1965,

No apologies necessary. What you said about him was accurate. What I am hurt about is my wife willingly going along with it. She knew she was being used by him but how he made her feel was worth it for her.

For example right after an encounter at work, he received a text from his wife saying she was there to take him to dinner. He obviously knew she was coming and told my wife it would be bad if his wife knew she was there with him. (post first disclosure of affair to his wife)

I asked my wife how she could be disrespected like that. She made a comment along the lines of she knew she was doing wrong so she felt she deserved to be treated like that. That type of twisted logic totally baffles me.

That can be very hard for people to do, and I hope that her psychologist/therapist will guide her through the process. People can do it, but they can be quite resistant at first, and that is what I believe is causing your wife's aggressive/vindictive outbursts.

I believe this is accurate in her case.

I don't know that I am her parent / doctor. What I do know is I have lived with the symptoms of her problems for a long time and have recognized them. (being a flirt, low self esteem, need for male attention, lots of male friends, hell, even had to have a male gynecologist) She needs to get her issues resolved if at all possible whether we stay together or not. It is not healthy for either of us if we stay together and not healthy for her if we don't.

Anyways, no apologies necessary

Hey Achilles, I have been following your thread for some time, and I really feel for you. You have been given some fantastic advice here, especially by M1965. There are times when I have been anxious reading your replies as I desperately want you to get to a point where you see clearly, but I remind myself that this is a process. It certainly was for me.

I grew up with a physically and psychologically abusive mother. People have often said to me that they can't believe that I turned out so normal despite my childhood. They were wrong just as I was wrong. It took me detaching from my WW to really begin to see the patterns in my life. Once i detached, i started to see who my WW really was.

You see, I had been so damaged by my childhood that my whole existence was built upon a few flawed ways of thinking. First, I too am a fixer. This is the result of living with a mentally unstable mother who would go off at the drop of a hat. And if she did, it was my fault. If I was lucky, I would be yelled at for a couple hours. If I wasn't, I would get a beating. I liked the bearings better as they were shorter. The result of this was that I learned to read a room really well. I could anticipate problems and solve them before they became problems. What I didn't get was that they weren't mine to solve. My wife fed off this and outsourced her responsibility to me. She used many tricks to manipulate me, and it wasn't until I detached that I saw them for what they were.

Another problem was that my family was so screwed up, I wanted redemption. If I had a terrible childhood, the least i could do was five my kids a fantastic one. Well, i failed at that for a variety of reasons, but it was the same behavior. If i just rearranged the chess pieces one more time, everything would be better. But it was always me doing it.

You see, in the e d, my subconscious won. I married a woman much like my mother because at some level, I was more comfortable being abused. Sad really. She was emotionally stunted and cold, did not have the capacity to love authentically, saw all arelationships as transactional, refused to examine herself and change.

So when Dday hit, I was a mess. I wept at the prospect of everything that I had built being destroyed. I did not want to lose my empire of dirt. It what I was holding onto was my fantasy, not the reality in front of me. Once I let that go, my thinking changed.

You are on a journey. It may be unique in some ways, but it us not remarkably different from the journeys on this site. It may take a little more or less time, but that is your authentic pace. I have some very strong opinions of your WW but I am looking in from the outside. You are in the thick of it and really, what I think does not matter. I just want you to peel back the layers and try to see things as they really are. You only have one life to live, so really live it. Live the shit out of it. Be kind to yourself most of all.

JSG.

I agree, I have been given great advice. I was totally lost for almost a year before I found this site, wasted time, a lot of time.

As far as seeing clearly, it's a mixed bag. Some things I see crystal clear and other things remain murky at best.

I don't think I have an empire of dirt or any kind of empire that I could lose. I thought I had a good life, not perfect obviously, but one I could live happily with. That was turned upside down.

I had dreams that got derailed but things change.

Most people can not relate to this, but I am a car guy, love musclecars. My first car was a 1965 Mustang. When I was a stupid teenager, my dream was to do a wheelie on the street by my house. Never happened, but I still think about it to this day, forty years later.

I guess the point to all this is I continue to adjust my dreams and realize that not all or even most of them will occur. Not necessarily bad but disappointing just the same.

Not sure how this got so far off track but I guess just where my mind took me.

I guess one of the things is everybody only gets my side of the story. In the general overview of the stories that is fine and accurate. The nuances are what are harder to convey. I think that is why people see me as weak or indecisive.

I will admit that I love my wife even after what she has done to me. I am loyal to a fault, and that has bit me in the ass a few times, none bigger than this.

I guess what I am trying to say is I understand what everyone is telling me and appreciate it, but I am trying to process it through my own personality and experiences. Some things stick better than others.

Hi Achilles,

I guess one of the things is everybody only gets my side of the story. In the general overview of the stories that is fine and accurate. The nuances are what are harder to convey. I think that is why people see me as weak or indecisive.

No-one here sees you as weak or indecisive. If the obvious answer to infidelity was always divorce, this forum would not have around seventy thousand members. In fact, it would not even exist.

What you are doing is trying to figure out if you can stay together with your wife and find a way to continue the marriage. That is what brought the vast majority of people to this forum. To seek help in how to do that.

Please do not feel like you are being judged. You are not. We all got hit by unwelcome surprises, and we all dealt with them as best we could. What we are doing here is comparing notes, because none of us knew how to handle this situation when it suddenly dropped onto our world like a bomb.

Affairs and the elements that comprise them may be remarkably similar, but the process of recovery is remarkably different. Everyone finds their own way out of this mess, which feels right to them. There are no one-size-fits-all solutions.

You are not being weak or indecisive; you are just working out what your path out of infidelity looks like. Take your time, because it needs to be right for you, and nobody else.

M1965,

I have been weak and indecisive. I spent almost a year lost and adrift. I have finally started to get my act together, but still struggle with things.

We all judge, as humans, we can't help it. I judge, especially myself. Whether that is healthy or not I don't know. Not even sure I care.

Everyone finds their own way out of this mess, which feels right to them. There are no one-size-fits-all solutions.

I don't know what feels right. I am torn between love for her cheating ass, sorry, and divorce.

I don't see the benefit for either the kids or me in divorce, just turmoil. If I can sacrifice to keep the family together and happy, I will do it. I am not a martyr or something special. The key is being able to keep a stable life for the kids. If they suffer by us staying together, obviously not good.

Don't think this:

I have been weak and indecisive.

It was only because of this:

I spent almost a year lost and adrift.

Unless you had gone through the pain of infidelity before, there was little to no way that you would have been able to navigate yourself out of infidelity alone. So don't beat yourself up over it.

Indifidelity throws the BS for a loop, and unless you have tools, there was no way you would have been able to land on your feet.