SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

"Why do we have to do what we clearly aren't comfortable with?"

why must she dress according to YOUR values? What if you just didn't care. wouldn't that be easier?

"I still dress in long skirts and I wear what I wear because I choose to be modest."

and that is your choice. But you don't get to make the choice for others.

I am also a survivor of rape. I still dress the same ole way because it had nothing to do with how I was dressed. Nor did anyone else's rape.

why must she dress according to YOUR values? What if you just didn't care. wouldn't that be easier?

What if I just didn't care? It is like asking why shouldn't I like the Bluejay over a starling or a mountain vista over a parking lot? It isn't just my values, it is a larger majority of values. More on point everyone in her personal space except her boyfriend's. It is the values of schools and most offices. I stand firm that the values aren't wrong. Schools and offices make those choices all the time. It isn't too hard to understand that I still hold those same values outside of those areas. That many people still do. If we want it within those social institutions, why wouldn't some of us want it outside of it? There are many people that don't want to see other people's private areas. There are websites made entirely of people out in public looking trashy. I never said anything about rape. That wasn't me. I don't tell them how to dress and it isn't my decision and no one can tell me I don't have a right to not like it. They can't have it all. Free choice and no one disliking it. It shouldn't matter what other people think or feel if they are so secure anyhow. Why argue for them to be validated by everyone? I still don't understand what is so wrong with someone wanting some skin covered. You would think a person would want someone to embrace some dress value. We certainly expect many waywards to embrace many other values. Why is dress value exempt? I suppose we shouldn't care if a woman wants to get involved with a married man. After all, that is just my value that they shouldn't. They obviously don't value it. Therefor, no betrayed should ever contact OBS.

[This message edited by hopefulmother at 9:32 AM, April 8th (Monday)]

hopeful, then make a fucking family rule - no skin please.

just because a majority of people don't like it doesn't make it right.

I think you guys are overly and creepily concerned about this.

you talked about your uncle wanting you and how you wanted to stay covered up. how you dressed had nothing to do with that.

there's not 20 things I can do to help the situation either. In fact, the only thing I can reliably do is not be "that guy" myself, which I do try to do. But beyond that, there's not a lot of "fixing" that I can do.

I can't come up with 20, but here are 6 to start:

1. Not be "that guy."

2. If you're hanging out with other guys, and they start to be "that guy," tell them to knock it off/leave that person alone.

3. Talk to your sons/nephews/godsons about not being "that guy."

4. Talk to your sons/nephews/godsons about enthusiastic consent.

5. Explain to your sons/nephews/godsons that the way a woman is dressed does not count as any sort of consent to be catcalled/leered at/groped.

6. If you see a woman being harassed, intervene. This doesn't necessarily mean that you pop off at the mouth and start a fight and all the other stuff you were saying that somehow turned into getting shot. This could be as simple as say, "hey buddy, leave the lady alone," OR "hey sis! Funny running into you here, wanna grab a coffee and catch up?" or "hey honey! Sorry I was late meeting you, let's hurry up and go meet Tom." Unfortunately in a lot of these situations, other men won't back off if a woman tells them no, but if they view you as someone's sister or girlfriend/wife, then they'll back off.

Society isn't going to change overnight, but nothing will ever change if we continue to let bad behavior go unchecked and we don't teach our children to do and be better.

you talked about your uncle wanting you and how you wanted to stay covered up. how you dressed had nothing to do with that.

I didn't say that.

just because a majority of people don't like it doesn't make it right.

I think you guys are overly and creepily concerned about this.

You are missing the point. Many people and most social institutions don't like it either. It doesn't make it creepy if that is the majority. I wouldn't allow my daughter to dress that way. I think it is more creepy that someone wants to show their private area. Why does this bother you so much? It isn't a concern either. It was a statement made about that type of dress and why in answer to question I had a right to voice an opinion about. Dress codes are right. I don't want to see my students wearing see through pants like mentioned before. I am sure the male teachers probably don't either. I am not sure why it makes one creepy to not want to see private skin.

1. Not be "that guy."

2. If you're hanging out with other guys, and they start to be "that guy," tell them to knock it off/leave that person alone.

3. Talk to your sons/nephews/godsons about not being "that guy."

4. Talk to your sons/nephews/godsons about enthusiastic consent.

5. Explain to your sons/nephews/godsons that the way a woman is dressed does not count as any sort of consent to be catcalled/leered at/groped.

6. If you see a woman being harassed, intervene. This doesn't necessarily mean that you pop off at the mouth and start a fight and all the other stuff you were saying that somehow turned into getting shot. This could be as simple as say, "hey buddy, leave the lady alone," OR "hey sis! Funny running into you here, wanna grab a coffee and catch up?" or "hey honey! Sorry I was late meeting you, let's hurry up and go meet Tom." Unfortunately in a lot of these situations, other men won't back off if a woman tells them no, but if they view you as someone's sister or girlfriend/wife, then they'll back off.

1-5, I feel like I've done/do all of them. I've basically turned myself into a social pariah at work to avoid it/not have to hear about it. 2-5, yes, I do/would say exactly those things to any young man or in any situation where I feel like I can influence another.

Number 6, it depends. No, not every time is it going to get physical if I get involved. But it's a real enough risk that telling a guy to "knock it off" could certainly escalate the situation to violence. I love your ideas about pretending to have a relationship to the woman, but, lord knows how that would go. I might be the last straw "now this asshole is pretending to be my brother, oh, that's it, I could take a little cat calling, but this guy is too much, time for a face full of mace". :) I say that somewhat in jest, but I'm a kind of "scary looking" guy, I'm not sure coming up to a woman who's experiencing harassment and doing anything but confronting the guy would go well. It might.

I think the problem here, even with this new (and probably better) indirect way to confront, I just don't see the roving bands of inappropriate bankers that you ladies do. I don't see it because it's not directed at me, like most people, I'm too busy living my own life. The times I see something like this and like that I described many pages back, bad men doing bad things. I spend a lot of time in NYC, and I honestly can't remember the last "catcall" I heard during the day. Now, late at night, I do remember a few, but that's drunk guys and drunk girls, a highly volatile situation to get involved in.

What I could get onboard with (and am, would be) is if a woman came up to me and said "please help me, this guy won't stop harassing me". I'd figure something out to help her. Put her in a cab, pretend to be her Dad/brother, call the cops. I'd do something. But the standard that seems to be pervasive here is "no, the woman shouldn't have to say something, you should just see it, know it's harassment, and then intervene". Well, some cases are easy and clear, most of them are not at all. The guys whistling to a girl in a really short skirt in the bar.. Harassment!! Well, maybe, until she turns around and smiles at one of them. The deli guy making a pass at the woman in yoga pants.. Harassment!! Well, yeah, but maybe they are married and this is their little "role play". Or maybe she really likes him and wants her to notice him. IDK. And putting that onus on me, to act in this very ambiguous situations where I cannot possibly know is it/isn't it wanted.. Well, that's an impossible standard to live up to.

In response to the statement about it not being against some people’s values not to get involved with MM or MW—obviously that is the case, or else they probably wouldn’t be doing it. It was the case for the guy I had an A with. I was M, he wasn’t. Looking back, my values at the time were to leave MM alone. Obviously I can’t say the same about that particular single man. Yes, I agree that many values are commonly accepted as social norms because the majority of people agree with them and follow them. But you’ll always have those outliers, like your niece. Apparently she just doesn’t share your values and doesn’t care that you have them. I didn’t care either, and my consequence was that my husband, who did hold the value that cheating, whether with a MM or SM, was wrong, divorced me. Y’all can impose “consequences” on your niece—maybe not being allowed in your home if she doesn’t follow your house rules including dress code—but it’s not going to change her values or make them like yours.

Hopefulmother, I do get what you're saying. I do. My daughter has a friend that I have those moments about. She waltzed in my door a month ago with a long t-shirt barely covering her ass and fishnet stockings on with boots. I admit to having a WTF moment because she's so young. But you know what? Her parents, her body, her business. Yes, I do get what you're saying about your neice dressing in a way that totally doesn't fit in with the family dynamic. Dressing in a way that's shocking, and maybe meant to be shocking and rebellious. If her intention is to be rebellious in her wardrobe, the best way to not feed that is to ignore it. It's doubtful that she'll dress the same way forever. She's trying to figure herself out and this is what she's trying out at the moment. Maybe she'll not fit in with the family dress code ever. You'll have to decide whether or not you can accept her for who she is and not put so much value on how she dresses.

I remember my cousin and I going to my great-grandmother's funeral when we were teenagers. We showed up dressed the way we figure you dress for a funeral and looked like the whores of Babylon compared to everyone else. This wing of the family was a branch of Christian that involved no make-up, no cutting of hair, long sleeves and long skirts even in the summer. We still laugh about how we went from normal teenagers to whores in the span of a church door opening. We got some stares. We didn't think that one through beforehand, but even if we had, we'd have stood out from everyone else in our most modest clothes.

There's a huge range of clothing preferences in our culture and it's not surprising that some will be trashy to others and some will be boring to others. I suspect the more you guys give your neice a hard time about her clothing, the more likely she is to be dressing for the sake of rebelling than for the sake of what she likes. She's young, right? That's what the young often do as they figure out their own identities.

Yep. It's all about comfort. Or rebelling. Or whatever.

Anything other than trying to attract men's attention.

DevestatedDee:

Y’all can impose “consequences” on your niece—maybe not being allowed in your home if she doesn’t follow your house rules including dress code—but it’s not going to change her values or make them like yours.

I would never impose consequences. Her decisions make her own consequences and things aren't going well for her. I know she would never change at this stage in her life. It would probably just make her rebel more. It really doesn't matter because I judge and I also see what is behind it all as well. I know her, so I know what might influence those particular dress values that might trickle over from some other FOO issues. I also said might.

If her intention is to be rebellious in her wardrobe, the best way to not feed that is to ignore it.

That is what everyone but my husband's mother does. She needs a ton of help with some life choices, not just dress. A life coach.

You'll have to decide whether or not you can accept her for who she is and not put so much value on how she dresses.

We do accept her and love her. I didn't mean to imply we didn't. We just don't feel comfortable with her dress and I just don't understand why it is so important that I should be made to feel comfortable with something clearly uncomfortable for many. Thank you for understanding the point I was making about showing more skin does make some people uncomfortable. We shouldn't be made to feel ashamed we have that value, just like she shouldn't be made ashamed to want to dress that way. There is nothing wrong with people that have the taste that I and others have for not wanting to see private areas. Is it really so wrong to not want to see someone's bare butt not in swimsuits? My tastes are probably influenced by my own Christian values too. I grew up Southern Baptist and Mennonite. My perverted step-father was the Mennonite, how crazy is that! I am conservative and I do wear shorts and sleeveless tees though. I have no issues with skin in general and a small bit of cleavage. Just private area. I was just trying to make a point actually about it not always being about sex appeal. I am a heterosexual woman and it is about taste.

[This message edited by hopefulmother at 10:37 AM, April 8th (Monday)]

So I suspect what is going on is that most men decide what women's motivations are when they are 17, and then they never update this decision as they get older.

Women over 30? No, they're not dressing for you. Younger women? Yeah they might be dressing for men, but in their same age group. So unless you are under 30, they're not dressing for you, either.

Sorry I have to go back to this because it's such an excellent point.

When I worked in the art sector during highschool the dress code was professional. I typically wore a pant suit. Always looked very professional. Even when I was working in the manufacturing part of that business I dressed nicely. After work while waiting for my ride home I'd stop off at a small restaurant/bar in town. I knew the bar tender and bouncer/security (he was so awesome, a local volunteer firefighter).

I was there for a snack. Sometimes a drink (we can drink at 19). Can't tell ya how many times I'd be hit on by guys in their 60's. And it wasn't nice and friendly it was crude crap that got them removed...

So just because I wanted a beer and poutine, even while dressed conservatively, the creeps did creep.

And please tell me how are we as parents supposed to influence the clothing choices of our daughters when 98% of the clothes out there are overly exposing and short? My Dd is ten and try to find shorts that's even close to her knees are impossible.

It's a part of the clothing for industry and very hard to change.

DD wants to wear what her friends wear and while i have some say now once she's older it's out of my hands no matter how much I talk about modesty and how people will view her.

Then there's the issue that woman can dress (or not dress) in clothing that's totally exposing as long as the point is for sexual attention but whip out a boob to feed a baby and omg people freak right out....And for the record I've never seen a breast feeding woman who exposed anything. But I have seen men tell a breast feeding mom to go sit in The bathroom...

Total double standard.

Then there's the issue that woman can dress (or not dress) in clothing that's totally exposing as long as the point is for sexual attention but whip out a boob to feed a baby and omg people freak right out....And for the record I've never seen a breast feeding woman who exposed anything. But I have seen men tell a breast feeding mom to go sit in The bathroom... 

^^^^^This.^^^^^

Men and women will tell a breastfeeding mom to skedaddle because they're so uncomfortable with a nursing baby in public.

[This message edited by ibonnie at 11:04 AM, April 8th (Monday)]

Yep. It's all about comfort. Or rebelling. Or whatever.

Anything other than trying to attract men's attention.

Well no, obviously there are women who dress to attract men's attention. There are times when I have certainly done so (an embarrassing number of them post DDay with my WH). That is certainly the motivation of some women. It isn't the motivation of all of us who happen to look good on a particular day, though. That's where it gets into assumptions and judgement at times.

I asked my daughter's friend whom I referenced above what club we were planning to go to that evening when she showed up, because I could not help myself, lol. She was like "what? We're going out?" Child was dressed like that to hang out with me and my daughter. So no, I don't think her fishnets were intended to get her laid as she's quite hetero and we weren't planning to go hang with a bunch of dudes. She just felt fun in the outfit. An outfit out there enough to give me the WTF are you wearing moment.

It would have made more sense to me had she said "this boy is coming over and I like him". Because damn...fishnets and a t-shirt?

I can’t post a link but...

A poll of 2,000 debunks the myth that they spend hours in front of a mirror on a Saturday night to impress men.....

Six out of ten women aged between 18 and 30 said they had their girlfriends in mind when they chose what to wear on a big night out.

And more than a quarter said the most genuine compliments they received came from women they don’t know – not men. Yesterday a spokesman for Simple skincare, which commissioned the report, said: ‘There is an assumption that women go all out to impress the opposite sex, but this research has revealed this isn’t always the case....

Two thirds of women believe that men say they look good regardless of what they look like and just say it as standard, without thinking.

I guess we can say that at least 1200 women are lying in the anonymous survey. However, that’s what flat earthers do when presented with irrefutable evidence that earth is round.

I don’t think anyone suggested that women NEVER dress to seem sexual attention. The women in the above photos probably spent a bunch of money on their breast augmentation. It’s not unreasonable to infer their choice in dress was done to highlight their chest. Saying that it is for the benefit of men is equally as probable as saying it’s to impress other women or feel good about themselves.

[This message edited by KingRat at 12:21 PM, April 8th (Monday)]

We do accept her and love her. I didn't mean to imply we didn't. We just don't feel comfortable with her dress and I just don't understand why it is so important that I should be made to feel comfortable with something clearly uncomfortable for many. Thank you for understanding the point I was making about showing more skin does make some people uncomfortable. We shouldn't be made to feel ashamed we have that value, just like she shouldn't be made ashamed to want to dress that way. There is nothing wrong with people that have the taste that I and others have for not wanting to see private areas. Is it really so wrong to not want to see someone's bare butt not in swimsuits? My tastes are probably influenced by my own Christian values too. I grew up Southern Baptist and Mennonite. My perverted step-father was the Mennonite, how crazy is that! I am conservative and I do wear shorts and sleeveless tees though. I have no issues with skin in general and a small bit of cleavage. Just private area. I was just trying to make a point actually about it not always being about sex appeal. I am a heterosexual woman and it is about taste.

I don't wanna see a lot of people's clothing choices either. I find a lot of things to be trashy as hell and borderline unhygeinic. I can sit back and judge someone's lack of class from my perspective all day and that's my prerogative. And sometimes I'm judging a person who actually is kinda trashy. I'd still rage at a man who thought that person's dress sense was a reason to touch them.

I grew up in a double-wide trailer in the south. I know what trashy looks like from my perspective and boy have I not seen a lot of it. Some of these chicks are awesome people, some are just plain fuckups in every area of life. My WH cheated on me with utter and complete trash. Junkies whoring themselves out for drug money. Trashy scrawny female addict look triggers the hell out of me. So yes, I get it. I get the judgy aspect because I possess it too. I don't have to like how someone is dressed or presenting themselves. It's not their problem how I feel about it as long as I don't make it their problem.

Finally someone admits to reality.

Well no, obviously there are women who dress to attract men's attention. There are times when I have certainly done so (an embarrassing number of them post DDay with my WH). That is certainly the motivation of some women. It isn't the motivation of all of us who happen to look good on a particular day, though. That's where it gets into assumptions and judgement at times.

Well...The second post of this whole thread:

Hell no! I don't know a single woman that dresses for men. And I can't understand the level of narcissism some men are coming from when they assume that we do. I dress the way I dress so that I really like the reflection I see in the mirror. Simple as that, really.

The whole 25 pages of this (and before) have been because some women keep insisting that wearing sexy clothes has NOTHING to do with attracting attention, but because it's (pick a reason).

The guys have been calling bullshit on that for the very reason that we all know women DO do it.

Do they do it 24/7, 365 days a year? Of course not. But they DO do it.

To somehow conflate that statement into: "You men are just reading too much into it and just want an excuse to attack women," is also mind boggling. And extremely insulting.

I guess we can say that at least 1200 women are lying in the anonymous survey. However, that’s what flat earthers do when presented with irrefutable evidence that earth is round.

Hmmm....I guess you forgot about the other 40% that DO.

#usingselectivefacts

I don’t think anyone suggested that women NEVER dress to seem sexual attention. The women in the above photos probably spent a bunch of money on their breast augmentation. It’s not unreasonable to infer their choice in dress was done to highlight their chest. Saying that it is for the benefit of men is equally as probable as saying it’s to impress other women or feel good about themselves.

Um, yeah. Some do suggest that "women NEVER dress to see[k] sexual attraction."

Second post of this thread:

Hell no! I don't know a single woman that dresses for men. And I can't understand the level of narcissism some men are coming from when they assume that we do. I dress the way I dress so that I really like the reflection I see in the mirror. Simple as that, really.

[This message edited by WornDown at 12:26 PM, April 8th (Monday)]

Hopeful, the FOO issues or whatever else might be going on with your niece is what I eluded to in my response to zugzwang. Maybe someone needs to talk to the niece about what she's thinking and feeling. Why does she dress that way? I can tell you why I dressed that way when I was younger, and it wasn't good. She needs guidance, maybe, rather than judgment and disgust.

And, you could just not care. You are choosing to be offended by it.

Worn down, I would never wear either of those outfits. They do not look comfortable at all. That example goes back to the OP. I think everyone has agreed that some people do dress to impress and get attention. Do they think they need outside validation to feel good about themselves. Maybe. Or, maybe they feel good about themselves and want to flaunt it. Idk. I'm not in their heads. But, not everyone does that.

I admitted to this several pages ago. In my single 20s, that is what we did. We went out dressed for attention. We shopped for jeans that made our asses look good.

Now.... nah. But I don’t go out anymore.

My husband’s girlfriend got her new boobs and guess what tops she started wearing. She was dressing for her admirers. No doubt about it.