SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Funny how the day I told my H he was free to go and be with the OW (or whoever he chose to be) with b/c I no longer cared and was done living with his infidelity, suddenly he didn’t want to be with her.

I have a friend whose H is a serial cheater. She finally told him to get out and he was free to be with anyone he chose. She is divorcing him. Suddenly he no longer wants to cheat, wants her back and is fighting the D.

It’s about control. As long as the cheater believes they are in the Control they usually don’t change their behavior.

While PassThis has had many comments that have helped me with my "gentle persistence" method, I'm now less confident there is a path to success at all.

There was a path to success. You've been walking steadily away from it this whole time.

I'm concerned that I am in fact finding a place where my values don't match my WW. How can she value honesty if she doesn't try to convince the SIL? She won't try.

It is often the case that infidelity reveals and surfaces a stark difference in value systems, worldviews and fundamental strength of character. It is a painful realization to see that this difference was there all along but one simply disregarded it because of affection and admiration — now the difference has been put in a harsh light and there’s no turning away. There’s no “unseeing” this and no time machine can undo it. I believe that as we mature through adulthood whatever masks and costumes we adopted in our teens and twenties become harder to maintain and who we fundamentally are is gradually revealed as these false layers are steadily stripped away. Additionally if there is a familial “tradition” of infidelity then this deeply flawed value system seems hard to break down. The question is what you are going to do with this information and epiphany.

@PassThis:

Whether or not WW's sister's affair is over or not, BIL is still living a lie. He is still being swindled here. This is just as true whether or not WW's sister was able to compartmentalize well enough so that BIL never suspected anything. You are absolutely wrong to be suggesting otherwise.

No one disagrees with the idea that it is WW's sister's responsibility to say something. If WW's sister does not though, that doesn't mean looking the other way is acceptable.

I think everyone here insist on partners who don't lie to us and who also don't enable others to lie. No two ways about it. You however, seem to be saying 'no wait, there ARE two ways about it, maybe someone allowing WW to enable her sister to keep swindling her husband is valid. Maybe appeasing WW by keeping silent on her sister's affair is the right approach. You know, marital confidence. It all depends on what your value system is!' You are aware of what a tough sell this idea is on here, right--especially to the many people on here who were kept in the dark about their partner's affairs. The one right way instead is to live with integrity and to be expecting your spouse to be living in integrity too, and this means not allowing her to enable someone else to cheat.

Meanwhile, there is a big truth about women that goes against what you are advising. When we betray our values or look the other way to appease her, not only do we lose respect for ourselves, but she loses respect for us too. So if TIF keeps the secret about WW's sister's affair from BIL, then he will lose HIS self-respect as well as that of WW. He will lose the marriage too. In the long run WW will NOT respect or appreciate TIF's silence on this.

Anyway TIF, you can see from the above what I think you need to do: Make sure BIL knows, either by insisting WW's sister tells him or you will. This will help you win back the most important person you need to be winning back, and that is YOURSELF.

@The1stWife 's advice is SPOT-ON.

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[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:59 PM, February 1st (Saturday)]

Funny how the day I told my H he was free to go and be with the OW (or whoever he chose to be) with b/c I no longer cared and was done living with his infidelity, suddenly he didn’t want to be with her.

I have a friend whose H is a serial cheater. She finally told him to get out and he was free to be with anyone he chose. She is divorcing him. Suddenly he no longer wants to cheat, wants her back and is fighting the D.

It’s about control. As long as the cheater believes they are in the Control they usually don’t change their behavior.

-

SOLID post.

WontBeFooledAgai,

So as to not threadjack, I sent you a PM.

In my own continuing stupid fashion, we discussed this issue again.
I told her, I thought her sister was in the wrong. And I told her, I needed to be absolutely clear that this doesn't mean I approve of infidelity, or lying. I told her, I don't think our values line up on this. She agreed with respect to telling the BIL but said that it was more important for her to keep confidence for her sister. She says our values don't line up about a lot of things (e.g. politics, some ethics, etc.). Well this one is a bit more important than others for a clear reason.
I'm shelving this until MC where I'll bring it up as a trust and values issue.
I went ahead and figured out all the finances for a D, so I won't be heading for a crash if that's they way things go. Between the lawyer and the finances, I have a comfortable understanding of the mechanics of the D. It's unfortunate, because my wife sees progress, and I have to remind her I still don't trust her and have not forgiven her. I told her she needs to recognize that her actions are causing continuing damage to our M. I told her she doesn't need to engage in self-destructive behavior. She needs to re-prioritize. She agreed. We'll see if she takes any actions at all.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:12 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:54 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

I'm shelving this until MC where I'll bring it up as a trust and values issue.

MC will probably rugsweep. For a lot lies to save the marriage are the norm so don’t be surprised.

I maybe never should have given my wife a chance to R at all. I'm big on integrity, and right now she has jack shit. I can't just sit around surrounded by lies when my life was destroyed by lies. It's impossible to be happy if I'm not going to be honest.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:11 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:54 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

It's more important for her to be her sister's confidante..than it is to do the right thing, tell the truth,and act with integrity. What she wants is more important than the truth.

Kinda like her telling you a minimized version of the truth,the extent,of her affair.

Kinda like her staying at her job.

It's all about What benefits her the most.

She is showing you who she is. Believe her.

Why are you going to allow the MC to tell YOU what you should do? You're a grown man. You know the difference between right and wrong.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:28 AM, February 2nd (Sunday)]

Affairs are the 2nd worst form is spousal abuse. There are a number of red flags in your relationship that her affair is not the only manifestation of abuse towards you.

IMHO you don’t need to wait for the MC for anything, ever. Only in cases where communication was the issue. Here it’s not, you know what you need to say but her systematic abuse of you is causing you to be understandably hesistant.

It’s a tough situation to be in.

We're on page 27 of this thread. It's a little over a month and a half since your first post. Somewhere in that time and on those pages it must have been mentioned a few times that MC at this time is counterproductive.

There is a reason that is said. There is extensive experience here on SI. When you've been here a while you've seen and heard a lot of shit and we've all lived a lot of shit. We try to help people avoid the pitfalls we have lived and felt and observed so many times.

I maybe never should have given my wife a chance to R at all. I'm big on integrity, and right now she has jack shit. I can't just sit around surrounded by lies when my life was destroyed by lies. It's impossible to be happy if I'm not going to be honest.

TIF, you want to save the marriage, so you did not press the big red 'divorce' button right away. There is nothing wrong with that.

In fact, if you want to see if the marriage has a chance to be what you both want/need, there is no harm in trying several different approaches and tools to try and figure that out.

If everyone went straight to the divorce option, there would be no need for forums like this one, or any of the others that are out there.

Many, many people find themselves in the position of thinking, "I really don't know what to do about this", even those who were convinced that they would go nuclear at the first hint of infidelity. Theory and reality are frequently very different.

It could be argued that the timing of MC is a bit 'off', because your wife seems more interested in saving an idea of herself as an individual than saving the marriage. There can also be counselors who tell betrayed partners to rugsweep and essentially get over themselves, simply to 'save' the marriage.

That crap does not work; it just kicks the can down the road.

However, if you have MC arranged, what you can do is take charge of it and make it work for you by stating what you need the session to be about when it begins. Never forget, the counselor is your employee, being paid by you. So make the sessions focus on what you have concerns about.

Your wife is free to stand up for her side too, so there is nothing unfair in you ensuring that the sessions do not go off at tangents, or worse, blame you for not being able to rugsweep or airbrush the infidelity into non-existence.

You are a good, bright, compassionate man, TIF. There is merit in trying to save something before letting go of it. The key thing is for you to be detached enough to interpret the results of those efforts without running them through a filter first. And that can be really hard when you want the results to go a certain way.

This does not necessarily have to boil down to 'Do I sacrifice myself to save the marriage, or do I sacrifice the marriage to save myself?'

You can state your case, and you can see if your wife is capable of change. You can see if there is a middle ground that can be reached, where both of you will feel comfortable.

In fact, you can ask your wife - in the MC session - "Are you capable of change?", and see what she says. She may see this as some kind of half-assed fight for her 'soul' or her right to cheat because it makes her equal to men, but ask her if she is actually interested in saving the marriage, or more fixated on making a point, regardless of the cost.

Make that MC session work for you, TIF.

[This message edited by M1965 at 7:07 PM, February 2nd (Sunday)]

I have not been able to follow every thread closely.

I totally get why your sister won't/doesn't want to rat her cheating sister out.

This is not a black and white issue.

If I had a married sibling I would struggle with this as well.

The struggle is between maintaining loyalty to your blood - however perverse - and your personal value system.

At the same time, even if one cannot bring themselves to interfere in the marriage of a sibling, one can tell their sibling that they in no way approve adulterous behavior and will not be involved in it in any way.

***

But that ain't your struggle!

You can keep it in your pocket and drop that bomb whenever you please.

Moreover, this case we have TWO cheating sisters, not one who has good morals and one who doesn't.

You're in a bit of a quandary right now yourself. I am not saying you should tell right now.

But you should let him know eventually, even if it is anonymously.

Keeping the secret to save your own marriage is wrong, and it only makes you a party to your wife's horrible morals.

You wife is telling you it is more important to protect a cheating sister than to help with her BIL. OK, fine.

But you need to stand up for integrity and character. Tell the BIL and let your wife see your strength. I wonder what she will do width that.

She says our values don't line up about a lot of things (e.g. politics, some ethics, etc.). Well this one is a bit more important than others for a clear reason.

This is all part of the same package. Your wife is asking you to sacrifice your integrity and values and she has asked you to do this repeatedly. In my opinion this is a bridge too far.

She’s telling you in unvarnished terms who she is and she’s shown it to you clearly with two morally transgressive acts that are considered among the most toxic things humans can do to one another.

Based on what you’ve told us it’s clear she has situational ethics, is selfish and has solipsistic tendencies, and employs moral relativism to suit her own ends. She also has developed a rather sick version of “female empowerment” by willfully abusing and misappropriating feminist ideas.

As I and others have said before, MC is a useless quagmire especially when dealing with someone who seems to have narcissistic tendencies and doesn’t “play fair” - yet she expects everyone else (especially you) to abide by a higher moral standard while she lives according to a “will to power” ethic. In fact she insists on this because it makes the glide path for her moral morass easier for her to engineer. That’s a disastrous foundation for marital counseling.

TIF, she has repeatedly shown a lack of remorse while you continue to search in vain for small glimmers of fake remorse.

Now she wants to take another piece of your soul (and here I’m speaking of “soul” in humanistic terms) by making you complicit in a conspiracy of silence — denying your BIL basic information he has a right to know as a fellow human being.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:28 PM, February 2nd (Sunday)]

I’ve been blunt more than once with TIF, but I don’t believe a “scorched earth” approach is necessarily the right approach with this. If WW’s sister told her in confidence, where does that leave WW? She loses either way.

I think TIF should either tell the BIL in person and if he can’t do that, then anonymously. After he’s done that, he can circle back and address the mismatch and huge gulf in their values. He is still going to have to make a call on what he can live with and what he can’t - it just won’t be clouded by a messy sister breakup diversion.

I maybe never should have given my wife a chance to R at all. I'm big on integrity, and right now she has jack shit. I can't just sit around surrounded by lies when my life was destroyed by lies. It's impossible to be happy if I'm not going to be honest.

This Is So Fine

Don’t know why the above surprised you . She told you she was entitled to have an affair because men have done that. You really think she’s going to give a rats ass about your BIL???

This thread has developed into more about your BIL than you.

You don’t know any truth about your own situation other than what an “entitled” cheater has told you . I’d tell you BIL for heavens sake and then let him deal with your SIL.

Is there anything you will do that you are not afraid of pissing off your wife ?

This0is0Fine,

I have posted my take on your situation, which I still maintain. I will not repeat.

You have been given solid advice from a number of posters who have a range of perspectives.

My only comments at this time are:

1. Your house is broken. Consider working to fix your house before trying to fix someone else's. You are in a terrible position that will not be resolved without some damage to you. SIL is a bad influence on your wife. Consider using SIL as a "strawman" in your discussions with your wife to show your wife how unfair, immoral, and damaging the infidelity, betrayal, and lying associated with an affair are to a BS. If she can't see that as it plays out right in front of her (and that SIL's issues apply to her as well), then you will have a very telling "teaching moment" regarding your wife's mindset and beliefs. I know that you are well aware of this.

2. You do you. I support whatever your decisions are, since you are in the best position to know what is best for you, whether to inform your BIL now or wait, or how to handle your situation with your wife. On old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make it drink." I hope that, at the end, this old saying will not apply to your WW. Sometimes, however, I get the impression from your posts that your wife is acting more like a mule (stubborn, no other inference intended, however a synonym for mule might well be applicable).

3. Maintain your integrity in your beliefs and priorities. That will allow you to be the best man/spouse that you can be. Your wife's affair and all the associated "why" issues (FOO issues, anxiety issues, "self identity issues), were not at all your fault. If your wife can not fix herself, you will at least have done the best that you could in the circumstances. You can be the honorable person and at least enjoy the view from the higher moral ground.

Sending strength and support.

TIF your wife is a taker. She takes and takes and you give and give. Have you noticed that every shitty moral choice she seems to make puts you in a moral quandary and it’s up to you decide what to do? It always falls back on you. Why is that?

In my view the responsibility for your SIL’s and your WW’s shitty moral choices doesn’t fall back on you. Your only ethical responsibility here is to the BIL — not to two female siblings who feel entitled to screw around on their husbands.

If it’s a deal breaker for your WW that you tell the BIL then this thing is deader than dead anyway. Just my two cents.