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((Defiance))

Lady V said it better than I ever could. I see you finally looking outside what (in the past) I thought was a very narrow window and that makes me excited for you.

Your kids are grown. They may still want you to pay for things, but they are very well old enough to decide their own future and if they want something bad enough, figure out how to pay for it. If your ex chooses for them to live there, then she can deal with the financial consequences.

I'm sorry that it didn't work out with your nature lady for your sake. Except I'm not really, because I thought you were settling then. Someone who REALLY loves you like we all want to be loved, well, that person is out there waiting for you to shake off the chains.

If you always do, what you've always done; you'll always get, what you've always gotten.

Read that over and over.

If you always do, what you've always done; you'll always get, what you've always gotten.

Been "reading" this in my head now for a while, and it's starting to sink in.

-D

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking if you are good enough and someone loves you that they will change. They are what they are.

I can sympathize with you because I had a dear friend who was like your SO. I worked with her for years. She was talented, beautiful, had it all, but was tied to her mother.

Over the years, she passed up relationships with men, a couple of marriage proposals, and never changed.

Her mother finally died, and now the woman is an old spinster. Sad because she never developed any relationship or life away from her mother.

I never could understand it.

Sorry this has happened to you.

D, you are the most honest, straight forward person and I so respect that.

Please don't ever give up hope. God loves you and so do so many other people even if we can not be your friends in person. So sorry about your relationship not working out.

Hugs to you, you are worth so much more than she could give.

It is her loss and that is sad.

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking if you are good enough and someone loves you that they will change. They are what they are.

I am learning this, more and more. I am not there all the way, yet. But I am learning.

I don't really want someone to "change". And it's wrong for me to even think that is a worthwhile goal.

I want to thank everyone on this thread. You have all been so supportive. And by that I mean, honest and straight up, no holds barred. And I have sat here this morning reading every post and listening carefully to what you write.

You give me a lot to consider, and a lot to think about.

And it is so very valuable for me to see what YOU see in me. Good and bad. That is the only way I can really learn. Sometimes, like LadyV can attest to, I resist.

But it does sink in. It may take a lot of time, but it does.

I like to try to think of myself as strong and whole.

But I realize, I am just as human as anyone else. I can be just as damaged as anyone else. And I am not whole. I need a lot of work. On myself. And with help. From friends, loved ones, and a good counselor.

-D

<edited for typo>

[This message edited by Defiance at 9:02 AM, September 1st (Wednesday)]

Your honesty is valuable here Defiance. I appreciate that. As far as your stbxso well her loss. Too bad she can't or won't grow up.

Ok, so while we're at it and you seem to be in a good mood, I will offer another observation.

You report a lot of past job conflict. You also affirm a great deal an idea that you are a Very Passionate Person and that's just how it is! And you're not going to change!

Maybe less passion so future jobs don't have so much conflict. You are easily defused by just a bit of compassion, but few of us are in professional positions where there is someone around whose job it is to defuse us. We can't all have agents and publicists and personal assistants.

I say this as a person who will maintain a dispassionate demeanor in all possible situations as a matter of pride and would rather *die* than show anyone undeserving any passion whatsoever, so I have my extremes too. Just perhaps less Battletoad, develop the ability to destroy people with stony silence. It is a useful skill. Your attentions and energies are a gift to others and should be held at a premium. Withhold these things from the undeserving. Consider *your attention* to be what is valuable, not theirs, whether it's your boss, your kids, women, whatever.

[This message edited by ladyvorkosigan at 9:17 AM, September 1st (Wednesday)]

I have talked with my SO about all of this.

I am going to sit down with her when I get back to NJ, and talk face to face about all of it.

And things may not be able to change.

But this is a conversation that needs to happen in person, and we both need to leave that conversation with a full understanding of where we are, and what we are going to do.

I think it's pretty obvious that things now are not at a point where we can have anything approaching a real relationship. So maybe that needs to change to being just friends. Friends who share a love of photography and nature, and who can enjoy each others company without the pressure of having a romantic involvement.

At this point, that is all she is capable of, really. Friendship and caring. But a real relationship, one I would want, is beyond the realm of possibility at this point, I think.

-D

You report a lot of past job conflict. You also affirm a great deal an idea that you are a Very Passionate Person and that's just how it is! And you're not going to change!

What I have done, is take the rage and the hurt and the feelings I have from having lived with abuse...

And thrown it right at those who triggered that response in me.

When faced with someone being nasty or demeaning to me (as bosses are often want to do)...

I used to suck it down.

Now, what I do, is fire back with all I have.

And that has cost me greatly.

And it is one reason I am seeking counseling. To deal with that kind of situation.

You are dead on, LadyV.

I need to change. I need to be able to handle it. Differently.

A former partner of mine and still a good friend once told me.

"You give back 10x what you receive. If someone shows you love and compassion, you return it 10-fold. If someone hurts you, then you unleash hell on them like nobody ever has".

And therein lies my strength, and my weakness.

-D

[This message edited by Defiance at 9:25 AM, September 1st (Wednesday)]

(((Defiance)))

So some of that is about giving away too much of yourself. Whether it's anger or adoration, you're still giving away disproportionate amounts of you.

"...Don't sell yourself to your enemy in advance, in your mind. You can only be defeated here." He touched his hands to his temple. "People give themselves to you, in their talking, and in other ways, if you are quiet and patient and let them, and not in such a damned rush to give yourself to them you go bat-blind and deaf."

Give less. Keep more for yourself. Try to consider concealing the degree to which you are affected to be a victory. One thing that's hilarious? Don't even notice when you're being needled. They'll just try harder, and become increasingly hilarious and out of control.

Give less. Keep more for yourself. Try to consider concealing the degree to which you are affected to be a victory

When it comes to those who wish to harm me, or make fun, or have a laugh at my expense?

Yes.

When it comes to loving someone?

No.

I will give all I have.

-D

Well, I am talking about enemies, and more specifically, work enemies.

But yes, giving away disproportionate amounts of adoration - disproportionate meaning, the amount being offered to you - is also a habit, and is something that I believe you should consider experimenting with. There is a lot of giving in your interpersonal relationships, and it doesn't seem to be resulting in much getting. It could be a useful exercise, to 180 the world.

I am a lot like that...

I would say - give all you have to the RIGHT people, and try to stop wasting precious time and energy on the wrong ones, for maybe the wrong reasons.

That has been a huge eye opener for me over the past couple years. One of the things that my son's diagnosis helped me to realize - where my focus is best served.

Your kids are grown. They may still want you to pay for things, but they are very well old enough to decide their own future and if they want something bad enough, figure out how to pay for it. If your ex chooses for them to live there, then she can deal with the financial consequences.

I agree with this. You are past your obligations for child support. They are adults. Had you a job where you could help with expenses, that would be nice. You don't, and the expectations should not be there.

There is a lot of giving in your interpersonal relationships, and it doesn't seem to be resulting in much getting. It could be a useful exercise, to 180 the world.

LadyV,

Over the years I have read your comments to me, and often times was taken back by them. What I hated to admit was how perceptive you were. How you saw me so well. And how I hated to admit that you were right.

You have a remarkable mind. And your analysis and observational skills are beyond compare.

Not saying that to blow sunshine. As someone who has worked in similar fields, I see what you are made of, and it is pretty astounding.

And you are right.

I get precious little in return for all I give.

And maybe a 180 is just what is needed.

Thank you, LadyV. More than you know.

-D

As far as your stbxso well her loss. Too bad she can't or won't grow up.

This quote only being an example, I feel this thread unfairly is beating up on your SO. She is the product of the family environment in which she grew up in and thus none of us are really in any position to chastise her for her life choices. She was like she is before you met her and she continues to steer her course -- just like you, D. Meet in the middle (like you are planning) and see if a continued relationship is feasible.

"You give back 10x what you receive. If someone shows you love and compassion, you return it 10-fold. If someone hurts you, then you unleash hell on them like nobody ever has".

IMHO this trait is not a really a good thing. We all know every single relationship we foster is a series of give and takes, a very fine balance if you will. When the scale tips one way or the other the relationship is invariably doomed.

Consider possible anger management to help balance things out from your end. It seems you are extremely angry (and impatient?) she is not giving you more in the current relationship.

I think Frank Costanza said it best when he yelled "Serenity now" when his emotions welled up -- try that a few times.

But seriously, work on flattening out the roller coaster ride if only for the benefit(s) to your overall health and well being.

Keep hanging tough, bro.

-t2g

PS: And to quote George Costanza while I am at it:

Do you ever get down on your knees and thank God you know me and have access to my dementia?

I do not have any more advice to add, that hasn't been touched on much more eloquently than I could say it.

What I want to do is say I am sorry you are hurting, D, and feeling a loss once again.

(((Defiance))).

Consider possible anger management to help balance things out from your end. It seems you are extremely angry (and impatient?) she is not giving you more in the current relationship.

Okay, can anyone here really see me in anger management?

I don't spit nails and beat people to a pulp for cutting me off in traffic. In fact, I am more controlled than most of my friends.

I speak my mind. I express my feelings. It's wide open. And they can either deal with that and respond in kind, or they can choose not to.

LadyV gives me pause, to not let people see all that I am, and not give them the benefit of seeing who I am, to that degree.

But I am not at a point where I need anger management. What I am, is someone who needs a fucking break. A win. Something to hold onto.

And I am working on finding employment. With the promise that I will not stomp my next boss into the ground for being an asshole. (That will be a hard one).

IMHO this trait is not a really a good thing. We all know every single relationship we foster is a series of give and takes, a very fine balance if you will. When the scale tips one way or the other the relationship is invariably doomed.

And the empirical evidence I have so far in my life totally supports your conclusion.

-D

[This message edited by Defiance at 10:31 AM, September 1st (Wednesday)]

What I am, is someone who needs a fucking break. A win. Something to hold onto

I honestly think it is YOU that needs to give this - to yourself!