SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As you express no interest in reconciliation I really didn't feel you would be interested in an explanation on what reconciliation is. Sorry if you felt I was patronizing, certainly not my intent. Please accept my sincere apology. I explained that true reconciliation doesn't include things you say must be in reconciliation: rug sweeping, lying, betraying ethics and morals, escapism, denial, lack of self respect, lack of confidence, etc.

True reconciliation is digging deep into all the issues you have within yourselves and within your marriage. It is addressing those issues in healthy ways to resolve them. It is a partnership in making your marriage better than it ever was. It is being totally transparent and vulnerable to your partner. It is being honest in everything. It is being passionately, madly in love with your spouse and wanting the best for them. Your #1 priority is your partners happiness, safety and comfort. It is living authentically.

I feel if you are "settling" for less than the above you aren't successfully reconciled. If you don't love your spouse and wish that you had divorced instead of continuing to be married, that is not reconciliation, that is just being married. imo

eta: *sigh* to fix word

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:25 PM, October 17th (Saturday)]

SisterMilkshake

"True reconciliation is digging deep into all the issues you have within yourselves and within your marriage. It is addressing those issues in healthy ways to resolve them. It is a partnership in making your marriage better than it ever was. It is being totally transparent and vulnerable to your partner. It is being honest in everything. It is being passionately, madly in love with your spouse and wanting the best for them. Your #1 priority is your partners happiness, safety and comfort. It is living authentically"

This is everything nice and wonderful, although in my opinion it is only good in theory. Why? I explained it in detail but you still do not explain the in-depth process. In my opinion, a cheater almost never will truly achieve that because it is standing as opposed to what I have written. I open to hear about the in-depth process, but not what appears in my mind as empty slogans

The cheater wants our happiness, safety and comfort as his first priority? Who prevented him in doing so in first place and why was it it impossible there for him, but was totally no problem for the majority of the people. I don't buy the FOO issues, I don't bye the mental issues and I don't buy all of that stuff, because even the majority of poeple that have those FOO issues don't cheat. What you write does not adress anything of what I've written

The cheater wants to be madly in love with the betrayed partner. Who prevented him in being in love with his betrayed partner first hand! When he wasn't madly in love than his betrayal is even more worse and heinous. There is no reason now to be with someone madly in love when one wasn't first hand and if one was then once again that is not love but a farce and attachment. This rationalization of evil in terms of the cheater is a vicious, vicious, cycle.

A cheater wants honesty? Look above and especially in my first post. It's a contradiction and impossible.

If you read my first post again that everything is delusion and wishful thinking and you can't address those issues in a healthy way because what you have there is only death and decay. Now, I know this is my stance on the issue. Once again I am willing to hear about it when one addresses the in depth issues I mentioned in my both posts, not what in my opinion is nothing but a superficial layer of the true problems.

I could add more to why in my opinion it is impossible but I think many people have difficulty to hear it and discuss it not to speak of more than this. Anyway, I still didn't got the in-depth answers I addressed in all of my posts

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 2:17 PM, October 17th (Saturday)]

I am sorry my explanation of reconciliation isn't enough for you. If you are truly interested in really finding out what reconciliation is, there are many books, articles and counselors who would be happy to go through it all with you. I do not have the time right now to go "in depth" and outline all the steps necessary for reconciliation. I suspect you aren't really interested anyway.

I haven't read all the books but I have read enough material in that time. Still, not convincing at all. I actually suspect something different

ImGone, I had to go back and read your first post, as I wasn't clearly understanding what you were looking for here. I got it now.

I am even not sure how I could benefit from posting here if I am not keen on reconciling with her, but as with most certainty and unfortunately there are more experienced people here with the cheater bullshit detector so any advice on how to avoid those honey traps pots and reconciliation traps would be highly appreciated, while I have to stay under the same roof with my (former) cheating wife until divorce is finalized.

So you are looking for advice on how to ensure you will not be tempted to reconcile while staying with your wife and waiting for the divorce. You have to understand that is a little unusual here.

I actually owe Eric1 an apology, Western too, as they were doing right by you.

Exactly right, HouseofPlane. That is why I suspect that he isn't really interested in understanding what reconciliation is really all about.

ImGone,

I want to let you know how I (and, I suspect, many others) read your posts. If I misinterpreted what you wanted to say, your best bet is probably to change the way you write.

You seem to make 4 points:

1) You're choosing D even though your W is a good to great candidate for R.

2) R requires the BS to stifle and lie to himself.

3) R is never successful.

4) WSes are irredeemably evil.

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1) You're choosing D even though your W is a good to great candidate for R.

I think no one objects to this; I know I certainly don't. You don't owe your W a chance to R.

2) R requires the BS to stifle and lie to himself, and only losers choose this option.

This is a total misreading of the material on R here on SI and in the best published material.

You want SMS to provide a detailed explanation of the R process, but she's responded at the same level of detail you wrote at. That seems like a double standard, I don't understand what makes you think that's acceptable.

There's plenty of stuff in the Healing Library and the forums on the R process and its infinite variations. You've jumped to unwarranted conclusions. Read more - try NOT "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, for example, or the free stuff on the dearpeggy.com website (citation approved by mods).

3) R is never successful.

What makes you think that - what's your evidence? On what basis do you reject claims made by people who've been at this far longer than you have?

4) WSes are irredeemably evil.

Again, what's your evidence? Again, on what basis do you reject claims made by people who've been at this far longer than you have? Who are you to judge other people on this? Are you proposing that we execute all WSes?

***********************************************

Here's the thing - if you came here and posted simply that you're choosing D even though your WS is on board for R, you'd get a lot of support.

But you're coming here expressing, in addition, contempt for R and for people who attempt R. You sound so sure, so confident - you present your opinions as facts, and that's flat out wrong.

Work on yourself. Speak for and about yourself. Don't presume to tell others to do what you do when you're still in the early stages of implementing your own decision.

HouseOfPlane

This is only partially what I wanted and I dont deny it, but your response actually may have proven that this place is maybe not what it claims, to support everyone but actually to push poeple into reconciliation. So, yes I was suspecting this and if this is the case than maybe I should stop posting here because I won't get the support, tolerance, understanding and many more. Maybe I should also stop posting as this is not what poeple want to hear and deal with it and this is fine too. I am not angry with you because you actually maybe said the truth and that's completely fine. As I said to Valentinessucks, I really apreciate poeple who say the truth so it it is completely o.k. I'll take it into consideration and will evaluate it

ImGoneByTheDown

I'm standing on the outside looking in on your situation and read every post in detail.

I have one question, not about reconciling, or divorce, because you've stated the obvious, that for you, to work out your marriage or to reconcile, would be, like faking it all.

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong, I believe in the saying, to each their own, and also know that it is much easier to talk the talk, then walk the walk.

My only question, sorry if I can't get to the point quickly, (i admit I am slightly envious of your determination)

Can you still feel love for your WS? I know she screwed up big time, and it is unforgivable to you, but do you love her still at all, in spite of her moral deficiency?

Edited to say, you should not have to censor your words or feelings, just to belong here. It is refreshing for me to see someone who tells it like it is, and honest, even if it comes off bitter)

[This message edited by 1moretess at 2:56 PM, October 17th (Saturday)]

So, yes I was suspecting this and if this is the case than maybe I should stop posting here because I won't get the support, tolerance, understanding and many more.

No, this is a good place, just pick and choose the advice you receive, that resonates with your goals. Consider diving into the Divorce Forum.

My advice wasn't to get you to reconcile or forgive, but it could be construed as potentially weakening your resolve, I guess.

Best of luck, my friend!

sisoon

You knowingly ask me to do something that you know that in accordance with the rules of the board I'm not allowed and able to do. This tactic says a lot about how you decided to deal with what I write but have zero reflection on my ability to support my assumption and refutes yours. You also decided to not tackle the issues I addressed but decided to address and attack me in person. I talked only about my -self or in general about my thoughts but you continue to misinterpret and attack me in general and in person too not addressing the topics. That's fine, as I said to Valentinessucks, I am not angry but understand where it comes from. However, read what I said above to HouseOfPlane. It is even more valid in your case. I

1moretess

Can you still feel love for your WS? I know she screwed up big time, and it is unforgivable to you, but do you love her still at all, in spite of her moral deficiency?

Yes, even at some very basic even now before forgiveness, I can still love her; as a human being not as my wife. However, love alone is not always enough. This IS what I tried to address in my first post.

I think right now I will abstain from posting as I'm not sure that this is a safe place for every BS

Hey there just wanted to offer support. I quickly moved on a decision to divorce and was totally secure in this decision. If you read my story I was offered all sorts of varying advice--don't move out of the house, get a VAR, etc. I chose to ignore it and move forward with what I felt worked FOR ME because I felt strong in my convictions at that point. I think this forum helped me more with the emotional issues than tactical issues of divorce. Anyway, I totally support you and know your outcome in the end will put you on stronger footing and you'll be in a much better place. Good luck and stay in touch. There are those of us that can offer support if you need it.

ImGoneByTheDown,

just wanted to reiterate my support to you. This forum is like other public places - take the advice you find useful and feel free to disregard the rest.

Having said that, you mentioned you wish to know what to expect. It's very possible your WW will try to get you to have sex with you, so be ready for that. If you have sex with her, you risk getting an STD or getting her pregnant, which would both be bad, given your situation.

You can also perhaps expect her to "recruit" your friends and family to try to talk you into giving her a(nother) chance. Make sure you have a good reply ready for them (sth like "Thank you for your opinion, but I have made my decision. Please, do not continue to advise me to reconcile with her, but rather support me in my healing from the betrayal and support our children").

If she gets desperate when figuring out you're gone, she might try to falsely accuse you of domestic violence. So try to move out as soon as possible (upon consulting your lawyer), have a GoPro/VAR on you when at home, have a friend or a relative move in until you move out (to have a witness etc.).

I hope you'll continue to talk to us.

I also recommend you think about starting your own thread in the divorce/separation subforum here, I think you'll get great advice there. Also, check out the "Betrayed menz" thread in the "I can relate" subforum, they/we are a great bunch and some, if not most, of them do not visit here. You'll get lots of support there.

Best wishes

Hi, Imgone, I am so sorry you had to find us, but I am glad you did.

I am a bit upset that some here are getting a bit argumentative, that's not what this site is about. You came here looking for support for your particular situation, and like several other recent members, you feel as though you are being attacked.

Most members who come here have absolutely no clue how to navigate this shit sandwich we have been dealt. Others, like yourself, know that infidelity is a deal breaker, and that's perfectly fine. You made a decision, and all of us should be respecting that decision instead of lecturing you on the difficult path to R.

What I do suggest is you visit the Betrayed Men's thread in I Can Relate forum.

"the great show in the theater of remorse and repentance"

Yes indeed, it is all theater until time and actions prove otherwise. My WW didn't last 6 months before she started bitchin and moaning about how much it sucks to be her-to be a wayward. At two years she was asking for complete forgiveness, complete privacy-zero transparency, complete trust, her own private phone, phone bill, PO Box, and bank accounts, Girls nights out, and no more mention of her affair.

Nothing wrong with divorcing now and ending the forsaken marriage, and then down the road, who knows. You have an array of possibilities all within your control.

"the great show in the theater of remorse and repentance"

Yes indeed, it is all theater until time and actions prove otherwise. My WW didn't last 6 months before she started bitchin and moaning about how much it sucks to be her-to be a wayward. At two years she was asking for complete forgiveness, complete privacy-zero transparency, complete trust, her own private phone, phone bill, PO Box, and bank accounts, Girls nights out, and no more mention of her affair.

Nothing wrong with divorcing now and ending the forsaken marriage, and then down the road, who knows. You have an array of possibilities all within your control.

I would hate to see anyone leave here, because I feel such support just reading what other members share. I can relate so very much. I didn't know how much until I visited divorce/reconciling forums.

I second and third the VAR. They are free on any smart phone and very handy proving innocence or IMC, Guilt!

Good luck don't give up.

I don't understand your response. Obviously we're not communicating effectively at this point, so I'm dropping out of this thread.

double post deleted

[This message edited by sisoon at 6:32 PM, October 17th (Saturday)]

ImGoneByTheDown,

My wife also had a ONS.

She didn't confess. I suspected something might have happened, searched her phone, and discovered a text exchange between her a man who's name (first name only) I didn't recognize. The exchange was more than enough evidence.

She, too, initially tried to down-play the affair. She only made-out with him, it didn't go as far as I think, etc., etc.

As I read your initial post, a tremendous amount of what you wrote sounded a lot like the things I told myself--short of painting my former wayward wife as out right evil.

Our marriage, before this little fling of hers, was already on the rocks. The stresses of life--death, moving, new jobs, new city, birth, etc.--took it's toll on both of us and we drifted apart over the years. There was little left of our marriage when she cheated and there's not much left today--except for one major difference.

Our marriage ended the moment I read those text exchanges. Infidelity is a deal-breaker. I've held the conviction since my HS GF slept with one of my best friends. I was only 17. The pattern was eerily familiar: trickle truth, lies and then finally D-day. The truth reached me through the grape-vine (my friend confessed to his GF, who told another friend in our tight little circle, on so forth). It was an easy decision for me then. We were so young, naïve, foolish and inexperienced. We have just over a year left before graduation and then we'd all be going our separate ways. I stayed with my WGF because it was easy, I was getting laid, and I knew our future was limited.

I have no regrets about that decision thirty years later. None what-so-ever. She was, like my wife, very remorseful and she took the heat when I lost it, comforted me when I lost it, and to this day I have nothing but love in my heart for that beautiful, flawed, young woman.

That, of course, was then. However, I've been there, and done that, before, and I wasn't all too happy being faced with it again.

My initial reaction to D-day, this past April, was a bit different than yours. I simply hated the idea that my marriage could end in abject failure. "Not like this," is what I kept telling myself. "Not_like_this."

For just over two months my wife blamed me and our marriage for her infidelity. She actually believed--or desperately wanted to believe--that it was, in fact, my fault. I categorically refused to accept it. There's no denying that I certainly could have been a better husband, and had my wife come to me with divorce papers in one hand and an appointment card for MC in other, there's no question which hand I'd have chosen. After D-day, of course, that was a moot point.

Brother, I truly felt the level of pain and rage in your post. I'm only six months out from D-day and it's still pretty fresh.

The single best piece of advice I've received since D-day is this: don't make any life-altering decision for a few months. Give yourself and your spouse time to process what has happened. Give your spouse some time to show you whether or not they can rebuild what they have broken.

Seemed a rather reasonable suggestion. After 14 years together and almost 10 married, and our son, what was another six months? What did I have to lose by giving my wife six months to demonstrate to me her quality?

So, in the meantime, I bought a book about infidelity--an rather random choice--and though I eventually tossed it out, the author did say something that I thought was rather odd. She said that couples could not only survive infidelity, but they could reconcile their marriage.

Oh, really?

Brother, I understand and relate to this tread of yours, with one exception. I took that advice and I'm still here, still married--though I did toss my wedding ring into a dumpster--and still wondering just what the fuck my wife was thinking and feeling while her boundaries were clearly crumbling at her feet (along with her dress).

It was roughly six weeks after D-day that I found SI and immediately started reading the Reconciliation Forum. I wanted to know if it was really possible to reconcile a marriage. I needed convincing, and I'm still not convinced, but I'm learning.

Now, I've personally written over 600 posts in just under four months. I'd estimate that I've read at least four to five times that number, from all sorts of spouses--men and women, betrayed and wayward, young and old, divorcing and reconciling. I've had extremely long private message exchanges with a two of the most remarkable human beings I've ever encountered, both of whom are trying to reconcile their marriages. I've read, partially or otherwise, a few books by Janis Spring, Shirley Glass, Stephen Arterburn, etc.

What have I learned that's starting to change my mind about reconciliation?

1) There is no justification for infidelity. This is a very freeing statement. Almost liberating. Certainly fodder for feeling very self-righteous in my indignation. However, there's another side to this that is not so liberating. If infidelity cannot be justified, and my wife had no good reason for committing infidelity, that left only one other option (aside from the notion that she just didn't give a shit anymore): there is something very wrong with my wife.

2) My wife's infidelity had nothing to do with me. Strange idea, don't you think. After all, how could it not? We're married, have a kid, financial ties, legal ties, etc., etc. How is it even possible to remove myself from the equation?

But I did just that. I removed myself from her equation--which, let's face it, just fucking hurts beyond rational description--and what I saw as a young woman in a tremendous amount of pain and anguish, desperate and lonely, scared, confused and, most assuredly, someone who had truly lost their way.

3) The first person a wayward betrays is himself.That idea took me a long time to process, until I started to really understand just what she'd done to herself. My wife didn't betray me. She betrayed herself and I am merely the collateral damage.

I'm curious to know what you think about this.

4) When someone show you who they are... believe them. (Maya Angelou). This was another one of those strange ideas that I just didn't get at first. Did my wife truly show me who she is with her cheating, lying, blame-shifting behavior? Can I encapsulate 14 years of knowing this woman into a fascade that only now is revealed for what it was? Was she always like this and I just didn't see it? Maybe.

Or perhaps, this was advice. In order for someone to show you who they are, you have to be paying attention. For the last few years, I wasn't paying attention at all. Now I certainly am. And what I'm seeing isn't all that different from what I saw all those years ago, with, of course, the rather glaring exception that a few of my wife's more serious issues have long been rug swept.

So, I've given my wife a chance to show me who she really is, and I believe her. I believe her remorse is quite genuine and that she wants nothing else but to reconcile our marriage and regain the trust and faith that she so completely shattered.

I'm beginning to believe that reconciliation is possible, only because I opened myself up to the possibility.

And I have to tell you, rather honestly, that I do not feel like a wimp. I don't feel like a doormat, don't feel abused or maltreated. I'm married to woman with some seriously screwed up issues who needs my help, love and support.

Do I owe her this chance?

No. I don't think I do.

Does it cost me anything to offer her the chance?

Again. No. What have I to lose but a few months of my time? I'm already hurt and pissed-off, and maybe that would quickly lessen if I left. I don't know for sure, but I don't think so.

I love my flawed wife. Yep! She's flawed alright. She must have some pretty deep issues to have done something so incredibly self-destructive. And even though I've never felt such pain nor such incredible rage, I still see her as the remarkably beautiful woman she's always been to me, though she doesn't deserve that pedestal anymore.

I though very long and hard about divorcing my wife, but not like this. Not this ugly, senseless and stupid. I've far too much time and energy invested in this marriage to let it end this way. If for no other reason than I think I owe it to myself, I've opened up to the possibility that reconciliation may actually be possible and that give me some hope, because within the last few weeks, I've actually felt that we are reconciling.

Now through all of this--probably the longest post I've ever written at one sitting--you're still thinking to yourself (if you're even still reading) that I must be crazy, deluding myself, a wimp, pathetic, whatever. Maybe you see all of this as some absurd rationalization. And perhaps you're right about all of that.

The difference between you and I is that I can't just walk away so quickly. I owed it to myself to find out if I can reconcile with my wife and if she can reconcile with me.

It costs me nothing to give her this chance. Pain and doubt, fears and anguish... I can deal with all that. I can make an exception, ONCE, to the deal-breaking and try to rebuild a marriage that was once that absolute best part of my life.

So I'll ask you.

What do you have to lose by giving your wife, your marriage, another six months?