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My answer; she has shown to me understanding of what she has done, of how it makes me feel, of how wrong it is, of the damage cause and what she has destroyed. She is making no excuses and fully takes the blame, the reasoning she gives, she fully admits are just small factors and not causes and never a justification, and that there is no justification.

Red Baron

Let me use the bank robbing analogy again. What you’re saying is that she’s an adult that fully understood the upside and the downside of robbing banks. She was caught and is not whining. I respect that.

You want to put her on probation instead of jail. How do you keep someone that has proven that they are fully capable of robbing banks from doing it again? Remember she was quite successful at robbing banks and was only caught by a fluke.

Answer: You stress upon then that they will likely to be caught in the future because you will now have them under surveillance and that next time they will 100% go to jail.

Surveillance is a great deal of work and they can get around it.

Do you want to live like that?

Plus the reward will never be as good as it once was. She can never be as special as she was.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 9:15 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

Greywolf and Wk make some excellent points to you Red Barron.

She banged him in November but NC for six months. Highly unlikely. I'd be ripping every closet in your house and her car apart looking for a "burner" phone. It is most likely at her job if she has one.

You are not going to get to the bottom of this without the polygraph, and believe me, you will not be the first "techie" who gets blindsided without the poly.

I think Wk told you that how on earth can you believe that these two, who most likely had numerous opportunities to screw for hours alone, made no attempt to do that but only wanted to do it in front of your nose. If that is the truth, you really do need to run like the wind because she is a ticking time bomb.

I am not "veteran" here ( 1 year), but I have never read anything about any 9 month affair where two cheaters are constantly around one another and only find time to do it 4 times in public. I guess I may have heard everything if this is true

YOU NEED THAT POLYGRAPH PRONTO.

Let me give you advice as a woman: stop being so goddamn nice to her. THAT is the problem! She thinks/thought you were safe. She thought you would forgive anything. You became a non-entity because you were a given/taken for granted. There is probably some truth in her comment about needed some type of thrill. The OM probably made her feel very feminine, sought after; I bet he was seen as masculine and exciting. Going forward: topple her off her pedestal. SHE IS NOT WHO YOU THOUGHT SHE WAS! Have you ever lusted after another woman while you were with her? You need to tap into your feelings as a MAN. I am not saying anything like an affair but I am saying you have been emasculated and in her eyes, you have lost your manliness. You need to be a different person! You need to be more cold, calculating and remind her you are a man. I think you need to remind yourself of that. You cannot be the same person with her; let her know you mean business! Don't be her doormat anymore. Dont' make her think you are so in love with her, that you can't live without her and you are trying everything in your power to reconcile. LET HER EARN IT AND YOU SERIOUSLY THINK IF THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT. No major decisions now. But she's one sick puppy, a true narcissist. Up until I found out about the affair, my pos stbx was saying to me "yes, I know I can trust you; I know you won't cheat on me." All the while he was cheating on me! You know what my mistake was? I made him feel completely safe! I bent over backward to never let him think I was ever in jeopardy of cheating on him. he believed me and I became a non-entity. the safe one; always there if he needed me. Don't become safe going forward anymore. Don't let her think you are a sure deal. Your story really bugs me. This level of cruelty is unacceptable.

[This message edited by Biggestmistake at 8:38 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

Why were there no other events where they could *enjoy* each other's company? (Less risk of being caught)

What's the fun in that?

Seriously. Forbidden fruit is the sweetest. Google on "women sex fantasies" and two that regularly show up are doing it with a stranger and risking getting caught. She checked off two of them.

Remember she was quite successful at robbing banks

She got caught, and was lucky it didn't happen sooner.

Did you know that 51% of all books sold are romance novels?

If what she did was evil, then it is the banality of evil. My opinion...she wasn't some mastermind explicitly looking to emasculate her husband and happened to use the nearest john to do so. It wasn't about him. It is more likely that she just let her impulse guide her to make An Extraordinarily Bad Set of Decisions. People do mindbogglingly stupid things all the time. People have hidden lives. She exposed hers.

You don't need to spin a narrative of her rubbing her hands together and cackling to make it terrible.

RedBaron, if you R, it will be like the people living in Mississippi and how they look at the ocean now as to how they looked at it before Hurricane Katrina came through and destroyed everything they own. Still a pretty coastline, but there's a wariness and a sense of danger and distrust, a memory of the disaster, that will never go away. Some can live with it, some can't.

Biggestmistake is a very wise woman.

***********

To me it’s worse if she’s telling the truth about her affair. Her thrill was the risk of getting caught. Having her under surveillance only increases the challenge and the thrill. The more you say that you’re a tech wizard and will catch them the more she will try and the greater her reward. Ironically, if she telling you the truth, the best way to keep her faithful is to have an open marriage. That way you take away her excitement.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 9:27 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

you have been emasculated and in her eyes, you have lost your manliness. You need to be a different person! You need to be more cold, calculating and remind her you are a man.

Maybe this is a subtle point, but basing his self-image on his relationship with his wife got him to this point. Who he was, was directly tied to who he was married to.

Using his relationship with his wife to restore his self-image? That is the opposite of detaching, of doing the 180 and learning to define your Self strictly based on your own actions, on the things you can control.

RedBaron, read up on the 180, and on detaching. Be yourself. Carve your own path, and invite her along if you choose, but you own the path.

In the end, the reason why I search for the causes and the 'why' and the 'how' is because I think that unless that can be known and addressed, there is no hope, and if there is no hope then what is the point of anything?

Your wife has pretty much given you the why, the how could she do this is probably something she cannot answer.

It might be you already have your answer as to the why, but you might never be able to understand the why. IC could help her help herself understand the why and how and then answer you and help you understand.

It sounds like your wife is doing everything that is required of a WW to do.

Total transparency, taking full blame, not blameshifting and being honest.

You might have to continue to search to make sure, her time line could help and the polygraph will help.

Make sure a question on the polygraph is has she ever done this before with some other guy. She liked the idea of doing something dangerous and or where she could get caught, and that is a rather common answer. Make sure this is the only time.

Moving forward, she needs to understand herself and make sure it never happens again.

She wasn't some mastermind explicitly looking to emasculate her husband and happened to use the nearest john to do so.

To be evil one does not necessarily always have to be a mastermind; sometimes the evil is the most trivial and banal one.

It wasn't about him.

I agree. He was a tool; a means to perpetrate that evil. This in itself as well as the dehumanization of him to a mere tool than a human being is exactly this trivial banality of evil.

It is more likely that she just let her impulse guide her to make An Extraordinarily Bad Set of Decisions.

I agree again yet it does not contradict the evil nature of her deed; this banality only emphasizes it.

People do mind-bogglingly stupid things all the time. People have hidden lives. She exposed hers.

Once again, the basics are true only it is used to create a false equivalency. Someone who smokes although he promised to his spouse not to do this because he has health issues is not the same hidden life as someone is seeking his thrills by dehumanizing others and using them for this purpose as well as betraying his SO and stabbing him in the back. Not the same league. The latter is pure and distilled evil; the former is simple and mere ignorance.

RedBaron

When I talk about probability and risk management I am talking exactly about this kind of evaluation. If you want successfully to reconcile you and your wife must thoroughly understand the nature of her transgression and not rug sweeping it because a woman allegedly can’t perpetrate any evil. I think and I hope biggestmistake would explain more on this but it is exactly what she meant. For you it is important to understand it, so you can minimize the risk you undertake and successfully protect yourself; for her, it's about understanding and adressing her problem because if not done so the problem remains on her mental stream and she prompt to abuse you again. My advise especially if you consider reconciling don't rug sweep it.

Also remember that the common narrative and mindset in our society is that if you're a man than by definition and by your nature you're capable of evil AND ACTUALLY ARE EVIL; yet, if you are a woman than a priory you're some kind of angel that isn't able to hurt anyone and then follows the avalanche of excuses why what she did is not really what she did. As your, mines and many other men's, the reality has taught you that it's a myth that has nothing to do with reality. Women exactly as men are capable of doing evil. Reject that myth; if not it will only hurt you again. By the way, it will turn against you everywhere in relationships not only in terms of infidelity. In my opinion the phenomenon of putting women on a pedestal which biggestmistake here correctly criticized is rooted on a deeper level exactly there. Because of the reasons mentioned above (men are evil; women are angels), we as men are conditioned by society to do so. Try to break that conditioning as it is only harmful to you.

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 2:00 PM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

I think the real issue you are going to have is that most men put there wives up on a pedistal, maybe unrealistic but a pedistal just the same. The reason she got away with this for so long was that you trusted her and were not looking for clues.

It doesn't matter that she shows great remorse. The problem is that she can NEVER be on that pedistal again. The ONLY way to resolve this within yourself is to say, Well, that marriage is dead, and thats a TOUGH pill to swallow.

To resolve this you have to consider the old marriage dead and start up a new marriage with all sorts of rules in place, to help prevent this from happening again. But still... a marriage where there is NO pedistal. Can you handle that? Is a remorseful WW enough? Can this happen again? These are questions you are going to have to face in order to move forward in your marriage.

With all that being said I don't believe you are anywhere NEAR that level of thinking yet. This only happened a month ago. You wouldn't be the first BS blindsided with a FALSE R. Yes, everything she has told you may be true... but the odds are against it. I would still check for a burner phone, and perhaps a put a VAR in her car, and DEFINITELY a POLY for the future. You can't forgive what you don't know.

Remember you said she was your soulmate, but she DISRESPECTED you in the WORST possible way. To do something like this only a few feet from you is about as blatant as it gets. Unfortunatly now you have to question your whole marriage. (Were there other affairs? Have you been lied to before? And I'm sure you can figure out other questions.)

seeking his thrills by dehumanizing others

So you think she did this with the front & center purpose of dehumanizing RedBaron? That was her central goal?

So you think she did this with the front & center purpose of dehumanizing RedBaron? That was her central goal?

It can but does not have to be so. One possibility is she did this with that purpose and the control, power and mind games resulted from that; it is also possible that it was first about the control, power and mind games and the dehumanization as a secondary level resulted from here. In both cases it is relevant as to the perpetrating the evil. In my opinion unless she admitts she is capable of this recognizing those elements to wit is the need of control as domination and power as well as mind games and the resulting dehumanization as a part of her mindset and narative resting on her mental stream and replacing them by their antidotes the danger of her slipping back to that kind of behavior will be there because the potential mental seed has not been eradicated. Whether conditions will align again or not as to an actual cheating is irrelevant but not understanding and adressing this he is still subjected as a potential danger to be hurt again. Not wise on his part and irresponsible on hers

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 1:56 PM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

One possibility is she did this with that purpose and the control, power and mind games resulted from that; it is also possible that it was first about the control, power and mind games and the dehumanization as a secondary lecel resulted from here.

That is nonsense.

If she wanted to hurt her husband, she would have not been devastated at being caught, she would continue the affair right in front of him.

The affair was all about what she wanted, what she felt she wanted to do. Whether it was the excitement, or boundary crossing, something new, whatever.

It had nothing at all to do with her husband, this was all about her.

One possibility is she did this with that purpose and the control, power and mind games resulted from that; it is also possible that it was first about the control, power and mind games and the dehumanization as a secondary lecel resulted from here.

That is nonsense.

If she wanted to hurt her husband, she would have not been devastated at being caught, she would continue the affair right in front of him.

This is not nonsense at all, because as with all cheaters she is first and for most devastated about losing her perks, entitlements and benefits of the marriage not so about hurting her husband. If hurting her husband would be a problem she wouldn't have cheated first hand. The other approach which mixes the horse with the rider is the one that is nonsense. And yes, as you correctly mentioned below it's only about herself not him, while the danger of having further affairs is also something I explained above. It's too not contradictory to what I said here.

By the way, even if what you've said would be correct it still does not disaprove the validity of my above statement and obserbation. Even in that case there was initially no problem on her part with the intent and the actual act to hurt her husband. Everything else followed later so as to my statement it is stil correct and for RedBaron to understand the chain of events correctly as to the cause and effect behind it is crucial if he wants to reconcile and protect him from further hurt on this path

The affair was all about what she wanted, what she felt she wanted to do. Whether it was the excitement, or boundary crossing, something new, whatever.

It had nothing at all to do with her husband, this was all about her.

Exactly and it does not contradict what I have said, only emphacizes it.

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 1:41 PM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

...as with all cheaters she is first and for most devastated about losing her perks, entitlements and benefits of the marriage not so about hurting her husband.

You don't know that.

I think we do by the actual result and the behavior of most cheaters (for example like not immediately telling the truth without causing further damage to the betrayed one out of the fear to lose exactly that and other things and not to mention that there are of course many more) if we are willing to look at it and admit what we see. Most of the time and it is true not only to infidelity we do see everything but are unwilling to admit it. Yet, even if it is not so, then it is also irrelevant because of the second reason I explained to craig

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 11:01 AM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

This is not nonsense at all, because as with all cheaters she is first and for most devastated about losing her perks, entitlements and benefits of the marriage not so about hurting her husband. If hurting her husband would be a problem she wouldn't have cheated first hand.

I am impressed, you are a mind reader as well. You can define all cheaters into a neat package and read their minds, their thoughts and their intentions.

Not to mention, that this is not helping the BS in any way.

I am impressed, you are a mind reader as well. You can define all cheaters into a neat package and read their minds, their thoughts and their intentions.

Not to mention, that this is not helping the BS in any way.

I'm not a mind reader, I simply see what they do and especially read what they say even at this very site and any other that I read. Additionally, knowing and having some insight into my own mind, yes I have something like this too, I understand how a mind function in general. Doing then the math of one plus one instead of getting only lost in the drama of my emotions (rather than acknowledging and bringing them to resolution) I come to the conclusions I state. I just refuse to deny the truth and reality and behave like a small child that puts his hands on his eyes and thinks no one sees him.

And by the way, truth always helps us whether we are betrayed, betrayer or have nothig to do with infidelity. It is ignorance that is the problem, not truth. By the way, I could use the same argument against you. It's derailing the dicussion from the essence into the personal level. That for sure would also not help a betrayed spouse to understand his situation. By the way, your reading is very selective one because I mentioned more than this but you simply chose to ignore and disregard it and not only in this one last post

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 1:39 PM, December 23rd (Wednesday)]

This is the first time I am at a loss. I have so much to say, but I have to hold back!!

You should just walk away from her.

I mean, what did his wife have to say about them doing it 6 feet from both of you and the first time right on the Terrance?

There is absolutely no respect towards you from her.

I know you came here for help and understanding. But this is bad, really bad!!!!

...as with all cheaters she is first and for most devastated about losing her perks, entitlements and benefits of the marriage not so about hurting her husband.

You don't know that.

I'm going to agree with ImGoneBytheDown on this.

His point is exactly what we mean when we talk about regret vs remorse. There is regret for loss of the AP, getting caught, getting in trouble, etc. But remorse is realizing the pain that you caused the other person.

I see nothing controversial in IGBD's statement.

I agree with Imgonebythedown and Worndown. Maybe the others have points too. However, what he describes is accurate in many cases. Maybe we should keep this open as a posibility rather than attacking him. he's been pretty accurate on just about everything he's posted here on this board.

Some here asks if he's a mind reader... he doens't have to be. The point is that we don't know all of what happened and why but I think his perspective is actually one that has to be considered.

Considering the fact that she turned evil, who knows what her intent was. However, I think we would be remiss if we didn't acknowledge Imgone's theory as a possibility.

I will also say this; I fear the Red's rugsweeping this. Her intentions were evil in nature. Does he know the full truth ? What has she done to fix her broken self ? There's something not adding up here