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Subconsciously she thinks of you as someone who is stopping her from pursuing her true happiness. The more talks you have with her, the more it will strengthen in her mind. Also, knowing that no matter what I say/do, my husband will stay shows to her that you have no boundaries that she can cross to make you not love her. I can't even think as to how a marriage can survive if one person openly declares that they don't love their spouse. Could you ever see yourself saying that if you wished to continue the relationship?

Remove yourself from the equation. Enough of these talks. You don't have to beg to be loved. What do you want? To stay in this unbalanced partnership where one person's needs loom over the other like a gun to their head? You've tried way too much. Time to stabilise and figure out what you want. Let her do the same. A separation will be good.

I understand that if she moves out it will continue and they will certainly take that 'next step' and have sex. What am I supposed to do though ? Am I supposed to force her to stay with me even though she has these hateful thoughts towards me and will always feel that she needs to be with this OM ?

You're assuming that the "next step" hasn't been taken yet. If she's this deep in the "affair fog," and ready to move full speed ahead with OM, I would be very surprised if there hasn't been some sort of physical contact yet.

Read around here long enough, and you'll realize if they had five minutes alone-ish together, that's enough. There are posters here, whose cheating spouses have been caught hooking up at parties when they were alone in another room for a few minutes!

But no, do not force her to stay with you. If anything, I would use reverse psychology and push her to be with the OM. Stop playing the reasonable, sensible, rational parent role in the relationship. Realize you're not dealing with the wife you thought you had, you're dealing with the 17yo teenage version of her that fell madly in love with the boy that she said two words to all year that sits next to her in chemistry class. She's already picked out the names of their future babies and is doodling Mrs. AP/OM all over her notebook, and he's wondering how many girls he can get to suck his dick at the next keg party. Again,

I told her that she was delusional if she thought that after 2 weeks this guy would take her into his home and make her the mother/caregiver of his children. That they would move away together and live happily ever after. What about his children, does she think that they would just accept her in place of their real mother ? She was furious (which was enlightening!)... which means that she is still harboring those thoughts towards him. I said that all she's had is the very start of the honeymoon stage. She doesn't know what it's like day in and day out with this OM. I really think she is living in fantasy land. I said to her, picture yourself saying goodbye to your own children. It is like she's blocked her own children out.

Whatever she says, just agree with her, no matter how insane it is.

"I'm sure he can't wait for you to move in, and that's why I'm helping pack up your stuff for you."

"You're right, I don't want you to fake being *in love* with me another minute. Go be with your soulmate, I don't want to hold you back."

"Of course the kids just want you to be happy. You should let them know about the new OM and their future step siblings ASAP."

Try your hardest not to sound sarcastic, but genuine. And then see how long it takes for her to start backpedaling when she realizes you're packing her closet up in trash bags and driving them over the OM's house for her because you want to help.

I remember kicking my WH out, starting the process to legally separate and being in mediation with him. One mediation session he tried to talk to me about how confused he was for loving two women and didn't know what the right choice was. So I smiled at him and said, "What choice? I'm moving on with my life and out of yours. You should be happy that I'm not standing in between you and your AP now." But... shocker... he wasn't any happier. Starting the affair was driving his car in the direction of going off a cliff. Me pushing him out and into the arms of his AP? That was hitting th gas pedal to the floor.

It's hilarious how having an affair with another person isn't crazy or a hasty decision, but once the betrayed spouse stands up for themselves and wants the cheater out and files for divorce, all of a sudden they panic and start begging for more time, telling you not to rush things, making weak promises hoping you'll buy them and continue to wait on the sidelines while they figure out what they want to do.

Guess what? They already did that. The picked another person to betray you with. Stop making decisions like husband and wife, start making decisions for you.

[This message edited by ibonnie at 12:34 PM, July 2nd (Tuesday)]

Great post ibonnie. I had a very similar experience with my H.

I told him on DDay2 and learning of false reconciliation that I had no choice but to D him and he was free to go be w/the OW or anyone else he chose.

Suddenly reality set in and he realized I was dumping him and he couldn’t handle it. He suddenly wants the M. I literally burst out laughing because prior to DDay 2 he had been saying “I want a Divorce” for 6 months. Now hecwas getting it handed to him in a silver platter but NOW it’s not his idea or in his control and he wants something different.

A bit of crazy thinking no?

ibonnie is spot on. Great post.

Sorry,

Although this may be harsh to hear, she is in love with the other man, and if he reached out for her now, she would go. The reason she was reaching out to him after confrontation was not only to console him(and that action itself says she had chosen him) but also to see what he wanted to do. Right now, you are her 2nd choice.

You impressed originally as a person who not only loved his wife, but also a person of high esteem, and values.

What she is doing to you is eroding at your self worth.

The POS other man lives to close for comfort. You would really need to move rather than waiting for him too, and do you consider having to move so that your wife will not cheat on you appropriate.

Draw your line in the sand. If she is unwilling, rip the band aid off, rather then have a festering sore,. It may be a quick sharp pain, but the healing will happen faster, and with less scaring.

Also, the only time I would recommend not telling others, is if you want to use it as a bargaining chip to get a great divorce settlement.

But informing appropriate others is a tremendous way to bring light into the situation, rather then it wallowing in the dark. Plus it starts showing her consequences.

Believe it or not your best chance to save your "marriage" right now is to file for D and EXPOSE her with ALL family and close friends without warning, if D papers and full exposure don't shock her back to reality, then nothing will, either way you get out of infidelity. "In order to save your M you have to be willing to lose it".

The1stwife and Ibonnie sorties are inspirational. Waywards think they have a choice but they don’t. “I have my husband/wife who loves me very much and the AP who loves me very much! So many options! I’m so desirable! Who should I pick? I’m confused!”

Um, no, you’re not. You’ll be d*nm lucky if we, BS, even consider, maybe, possibly, under a lot of conditions, doing R.

A word of warning though. The1stwife and Ibonnie’s husband changed their mind pretty quickly, but it doesn’t mean your WW will. 20 years later, my XWW still think I forced her to cheat because I didn’t love her enough. Some people never get it. YMMV.

I don't deserve to be treated this way.

Well said.

Stevesn has already offered you good and solid advice. What I am going to say is further elaboration on that.

Right in your first post you start talking about the “good honest talks” you and your wife had and have. Yet you are still here… still where you are at… To me it’s like you were talking to a buddy about his drinking problems and he was totally on board that he was an alcoholic. Only you two are having the discussion in a bar while having drinks.

Look – each and every case of infidelity is unique. Each and every one is different. But still… our collective experience and what we have witnessed through the years gives us quite clear indications, trends and actions that give us a good picture of what is likely to happen. Basically – every case is unique but mainly only in the sense that it’s happening to YOU. Your wife’s actions and reactions and where you are at is quite predictable.

Thanks to the predictability we can – based on our experience – give you a map or instructions on how to move on. How to get out of infidelity.

Be clear on this: The goal is neither to divorce nor reconcile. Those are options you might be able to chose between. Divorce you can always unilaterally decide to do. Don’t need your WW permission to divorce. It’s a path you have quite good control over. Reconciliation requires that you BOTH decide to reconcile. There is no way one of you can reconcile while the other decides to remain in infidelity. The goal is neither R nor D. The goal is to get out of infidelity.

Your call is whether you want to reach that goal trudging along the path called Reconciliation or the path called Divorce.

Some of us are clear right from the start that the infidelity is a deal-breaker and we want out. That’s fine. That is a totally 100% acceptable way out of infidelity.

Some of us want to reconcile. That too is perfectly fine. Only reconciling alone is like the proverbial one-hand clap. Like now your WW is not really working at R, but rather at justification for the affair and backing-and-forthing. If I go back to the drinking-buddy metaphor then it’s like he’s ordering a Diet-Coke every second drink, but then goes back to Jack Daniels.

But… You are in luck!

Our collective experience shows that the two paths – R and D – run parallel for quite some time. Very comparable actions are likely to bring results irrespective of R or D. In other words: Follow the advice and you are increasing the chances of your marriage surviving OR forcing the issue on if she really wants to R or D.

These paths are things like:

Refuse to accept ANY responsibility for her DECISION to cheat. Your marriage could have been bad, you could be the Hannibal Lecter of husbands, yet she had other GOOD options. Her DECISION to cheat was not the correct or even logical decision. Nor was it a result of the state of your marriage or your behavior. Those are simply retrospective justifications for her decision to cheat.

Notice how I use the word DECISION? This is also a key element. The affair didn’t simply happen. She didn’t trip, and her lips fall on his lips by accident. There was a moment where she DECIDED to take this that inch too far. This is why no change you make will make her less capable of DECIDING wrong again. She needs to do the work on discovering why she DECIDED that infidelity was a good idea.

Refuse to feel shame for the affair. Her affair doesn’t reflect on you. There is NOTHING – NOTHING AT ALL – that will give you more help than letting stakeholders know of the affair. Get that? NOTHING!!!! By trying to keep this all secret and hush-hush you are doing yourself and your family the biggest disfavor imaginable. Am I clear on this?

Let me elaborate: Affairs thrive in secrecy. For your WW the attention of the OM is exciting. You phone home from work and all you discuss if you should get Chinese or eat the left-over meatloaf from yesterday. Maybe decide if you should visit auntie Grace next Saturday. About as exciting as drying paint… OM on the other hand… it’s all secret… sneaked phone-calls… sneaked visits. Was anybody watching? Did anyone see? It’s all so secret, exciting and sexy… It’s all so new and forbidden and romantic nobody knows…

Once your WW – as she sneaks away to see OM – is wondering why the neighbor is looking at her that way, once your WW is worried that your friend Jack passed her when she drove down OM road, once she can’t park her car in the same area as OM lives… it breaks the excitement. It’s no longer secret. It’s no longer as exciting.

I know the thought terrifies you, but if you tell those that can impact your wife – stakeholders in the marriage like in-laws, siblings, friends – that your wife is in an affair with OM (and yes – name him) you will instantly change the whole dynamics of what’s going on.

When you have several people questioning your wife and her actions she will have a harder time justifying them. Once the nth person tells her that your actions as a husband don’t really justify an affair, that she should have divorced you first, that she isn’t doing the right thing… Once she thinks or feels like there are 10000 eyes monitoring her… Once people start calling it an affair, cheating or infidelity rather than “romance” … That is when her eyes will start opening.

OK – So many counters that exposure makes reconciliation harder. The usual first response from WS is the indignant cry that exposure makes reconciliation impossible. Not true. What makes reconciliation hard is infidelity. Exposure forces the issue: Will the affair continue or not. If it ends (like it does in most cases) then you can recover from exposure. People move on, the next Hollywood-star beats his wife, the next Senator is caught with an underage hooker…

What you do is expose with care:

“My wife is having an affair with Joe. I’m telling you this, so you can help me and my family in finding resolve on this issue. If you can impact my wife to do right, then it would be appreciated. Joe is part of our community and as you can imagine it pains me to be near him. I would appreciate if you don’t invite him or me to the same events”.

Then there is the talk with your wife. She claims you are controlling her. Well… set her free.

“Wife. I love you and would really want to save our marriage. However, I have realized that there is something immensely worse than losing you. Divorce is not the worst outcome from what you have done. What is immensely worse is SHARING YOU.

Sharing you is so much worse than losing you because while you are in infidelity I have already lost you. As long as your thoughts are with him or while you think there is even the slightest excuse that justifies your decision to be in infidelity then our marriage is dead in all but formality.

You are totally free to see Joe or any other man for that matter. You can go out to dates, you can go to restaurants with him, events, clubs… whatever. You can hold hands and be affectionate. If he’s the love of your life, then definitely go for it.

BUT NOT AS MY WIFE.

It would be the decent thing for you to not date him while we are still formally married, but your decision to have an affair clearly shows that I can’t depend on that sign of respect.

Until and unless you clearly and vocally and unequivocally [This is important – it needs to be very very clear] let me know you want THIS marriage and are willing to comply with some non-negotiable conditions I am simply assuming you have chosen to remain in infidelity. I won’t stay there. I’m moving on.

It’s a process. There is no big rush. There are rules and laws for how we proceed with the termination of our marriage and we will simply follow them. We won’t be the first couple to divorce, nor the last. No need for big words or drama. We are simply divorcing because you chose your affair over your marriage.”

And then you move on. Go make a sandwich or watch a rerun of Friends. There isn’t much to discuss UNLESS she commits to the marriage.

If she gives you a half-hearted reply about wanting the marriage then ignore it. No – she doesn’t have to remain married for the kids sake, they will be OK if you are good co-parents. No – she doesn’t have to remain married for the finances, you can afford to divorce. No – avoiding shame isn’t a good basis for a marriage, people will move on, she isn’t the first person to cheat or divorce. The ONLY reason you accept is that she WILLINGLY ends the infidelity and wants to be with YOU.

There isn’t any rush, but you start the process of detaching. You openly talk about the affair. It’s no secret. You get an attorney to outline what to expect in divorce. You stop all major joint purchases and investments. You start separating finances…

If she tells you she wants the marriage your conditions are:

The complete and total truth.

Accountability.

IC for why she did it.

NC letter to OM (short and to the point)

An action plan on how to offer you assurances until he relocates

If she huffs and puffs and starts telling you why she had to cheat:

“You don’t listen to me. He listened. He made me feel loved”

Your stock answer is: “I am sorry your feel that way. If we were working on our marriage we could address that issue. But since you have decided to commit to your infidelity there isn’t really any need to go there”.

“But you snore and eat your boogers”

“I am sorry your feel that way. If we were working on our marriage we could address that issue. But since you have decided to commit to your infidelity there isn’t really any need to go there”.

“We grew apart and don’t talk”

“I am sorry your feel that way. If we were working on our marriage we could address that issue. But since you have decided to commit to your infidelity there isn’t really any need to go there”.

Get it? You do not partake in any marital discussions UNLESS she commits. Infidelity is NOT negotiable.

I get it the above sounds harsh, but has your approach gotten you to a better place?

Reconciliation is HARD but if done properly will lead a marriage to a better place, maybe even better than ever before. At that point – say 10 years into the future – you don’t want your wife to offer a toast to OM with thanks for her brilliant decision to have an affair, leading to the better marriage. You cannot leave even a TRACE of positivity connected to the affair. At that point you want her (and you for that matter) to realize that the affair was a catalyst for hard work that got you to a better place, but that work could have been done without the affair. Your marriage (at that time) is better despite the affair, not thanks to the affair.

ThisIstMe

Still there? How are you doing?

Bigger just perfectly summarized what we’ve all been trying to get across to you.

Please read it a couple of times and then put together a plan of action for yourself.

R is not possible with a WW who is pining away for another. Until that changes it’s best to take steps to move away from her and detach. Begging and pleading don’t attract back a WW, it just emboldens their decision to cheat.

You are well supported here. And if you confid in a few close friends or family members, with all our support you can find your way through this very difficult time in your life.

Keep posting. We’re listening.

Affairs (even one sided) thrive in the dark and typically die on exposure.

Expose her affair to all! Don't warn her in advance.

File for divorce (in the interim she can prove to you that she deserves a second chance).

Sleep in another room.

Consider packing her a bag and putting it on the OM's porch.

Stop reacting - take control via action - not to punish her but to protect yourself.

Being drunk lowered her inhibitions and she spoke her mind. Her words are also supported by her actions. She's rewriting your marriage in order to justify her wayward thinking. Only strong zero tolerance stands a chance to save your marriage (if that's what you decide).

If you are ever where the POS is then treat him like he's invisible. You don't have to interact with something invisible. Don't let him dictate where you can go because he is invisible and less than nothing. I hope you and your wife can make it through this. Remember you can replace her just as fast as she can replace you. I do wish you well.

Thank you Bigger, your post really helped put things in perspective.

What I am going to say next will probably make you very frustrated.

I know their A is not currently ongoing and he is keeping his distance.

She has decided that maybe she is going through some 'mental' condition and has made an appointment with a psychiatrist.

I told her that her mental condition doesn't really make a difference.

We have decided that she move out starting Saturday.

She has said she is committed to our Marriage.

However, I still don't get the feeling of remorse.. it's just not there. She says that is why she needs to see a psychiatrist, she says she is severely depressed or bipolar but just wants the psychiatrist to tell her. She says once that is under control she will.... blah blah blah.

Basically your post stated that I should expose the A, I've thought about it and don't know if I can do that to our children. We are all alone in the US we have no support system, just a few friends... and these are the ones I would need to tell. I just don't know how I can do that. I know the A is over and I really don't see it starting up again. This moment is probably the pivotal point in the process, if all goes to hell I will think back to this very moment and think "Man, I should have exposed the A I am sure things would have turned out differently".

As you say, ever case of infidelity is different and each couple are different too.

Excuse my post if it is all over the place.

Your post also goes on to say that it is neither R or D that should be the focus now. It has taken me this long to actually realize that.. I don't know if I am even at the place mentally to say I am interested in either.

Maybe all of the stuff below regarding agreements for R or a decision on D should come after time has passed and things are clearer.

If she tells you she wants the marriage your conditions are:

The complete and total truth.

Accountability.

IC for why she did it.

NC letter to OM (short and to the point)

An action plan on how to offer you assurances until he relocates

This is probably nothing but it made me feel a lot better about things and will be the last thing I do/say to the OM.

I got his phone number and texted him a message about what a POS he is and how disgusting his actions were and how much damage he has done to my family.

It's probably nothing but it made me feel better.

I won't be contacting him again.

OK – It is your call, but I strongly suggest you reconsider the exposure issue.

Unlike many I don’t advocate exposure as a form of revenge or shaming. I advocate it as a tool to ensure the affair is over. It’s precisely that strategic group that should know.

You mention being alone in the US. You guys expats? In an expat community? They tend to have a higher than average divorce-rate, probably due to infidelity. I think your friends would be surprisingly sympathetic.

If it’s a close-knit community wont they sort-of notice if your wife moves out? How is that going to be explained? Why don’t you feel shame in that as you (probably) do about her affair? Think she wouldn’t get more specific and direct support to do right if the true cause was known?

Once separated think you will both be invited to the same functions? So, you stay home while WW is at a dinner or party where OM was inadvertently invited.

Heck… I even doubt that the affair is secret… We have SO MANY cases here on SI where the cheating couple were 100% certain nobody knew, as if nobody had noticed they were sneaking away, looking at each other, touching, cars parked further down the road from the others home, both driving that isolated road to the lake… whatever. I guess that if you told someone the odds are high the answer would be “well… I thought something was going on…”

I have a friend that is doing statistical research in higher education. He has told me that he can predict with amazing accuracy the grades of engineering students for very specific courses based on their grades in high-school. His algorithm is used in student-selection, and in the last 3-4 years they have taken students that have scored low in the prediction and specifically warned them about the work required. Yet the ratio doesn’t really change… It’s maybe 1 in 10 that changes his ways and bends the curve. Yet each student is an individual and different from the others…

I think the same would apply for infidelity. The odds of an unexposed affair ending right at d-day are IMHO at BEST 1 in 10. After exposure if the OM is married it’s 9/10. Since OM isn’t married maybe 6/10, but since you describe a small close-knit community then 8/10.

I don’t do statistical research nor am I an engineer, but even I know that 8/10 odds are better than 6/10, not to mention 1/10.

I say that right now the chances of the affair restarting are totally dependent on the OM – not your wife. For her it’s some romantic and dramatic Wuthering Heights/Freudian angst scenario where she needs to find herself and be free from the chains of the paternal social oppression. Her time apart in her own place will be used to milk that drama. When she comes back to the marriage it will be conditional, based on HER conditions with a lot of your concessions.

Ten years from now she will be telling you how lucky you were that she kissed OM…

At the very least please consider doing what I previously suggested.

Tell your friends/neighbors that this Man made a pass at your wife and it makes you very uncomfortable being at events with him and if he will be invited you both will have to decline attending.

At the very least it puts other couples and husbands on alert that this man has no issue making advances toward married women. Perhaps you and your WW will learn that she was not the first one.

Or you can save another marriage of your friends from having the same destruction when he decides to target his next “victim”.

I hope you will at least consider doing that.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:09 AM, July 4th (Thursday)]

Ten years from now she will be telling you how lucky you were that she kissed OM…

Bigger, that hurts... but you know what, I think you are 100% right. Things must change!

Tell your friends/neighbors that this Man made a pass at your wife and it makes you very uncomfortable being at events with him and if he will be invited you both will have to decline attending.

At the very least it puts other couples and husbands on alert that this man has no issue making advances toward married women.

Stevesn, I am considering that... what you've said has stuck with me since I read it for the first time.

HUGE UPDATE

My daughter, who is 19, came to me while I was reading this site earlier today and wanted to talk. Her and my other daughter (16) have seen how the dynamic has been between my wife and I and were trying to find out what is going on.

Not only did they work it out 100% but they poked around facebook and worked out who the OM was exactly.

OMG, I felt such a flood of emotions. Sadness that my daughters had to find out this way, huge relief that I don't need to carry her lie anymore, pride in how brilliant my daughters are.

So we went over to the Condo where she was staying for the night (my 16 year old daughter was with her there) and I asked my WW to explain the whole situation to them, which she did.

My 19 y/o daughter was devastated but she acted in the way that I wish I had acted, furious.. angry.. uncompromising... betrayed.

We were all basically screaming at her to take ownership of the A, that she needs to understand the devastation she's caused. It looked to me, for the first time, that it started to dawn on her.

So now the cat is out the bag and it is a huge relief (although I feel bad for my daughters). I am thinking of taking it further and speaking to the husband of one of my wifes friends and tell him that this OM makes passes at other mens wives. I am also going to ask him to not invite us to places if the OM is going to be there.

I hope you realize your WW is moving out so she can pursue her relationship with POSOM, or perhaps with multiple other men. Bottom line is that she does not wish to remain monogamous and committed to you.

You mention that you are from another country/culture. Is your culture one in which women and wives are expected to take a subservient role? Is your wife becoming westernized and now desiring to explore her womanly desires

I concur with the advice of others about "rules" for living apart. There are no rules other than "don't contact me other than for stuff having to do with the kids." Get yourself out of infidelity.

To that end, the overwhelming experience here is that exposing the A to the wider community of friends and family is liberating to the betrayed spouse. It opens the eyes of the community to the reality that your WW is a betrayer, a cheater, a liar. When they see her in situations where she can carry on her A, they will know what she is doing.

On the flip side, they will understand why you are in pain. Those who are true to you will offer support.

Bigger, to answer some of your questions.

You mention being alone in the US. You guys expats? In an expat community? They tend to have a higher than average divorce-rate, probably due to infidelity. I think your friends would be surprisingly sympathetic.

Yes we are expats, originally from South Africa. The expat community for South Africans is really hit-or-miss and mostly it is miss. We don't hang out in a community with other south Africans.

If it’s a close-knit community wont they sort-of notice if your wife moves out? How is that going to be explained? Why don’t you feel shame in that as you (probably) do about her affair? Think she wouldn’t get more specific and direct support to do right if the true cause was known?

Our golf community is a close-knit community. After the talk we had this morning with my daughters, I am not sure her moving out is the right thing to do. My eldest daughter thinks it is, she's furious and doesn't want to see her face. However, I think exposure is the right thing here not separation.

Heck… I even doubt that the affair is secret… We have SO MANY cases here on SI where the cheating couple were 100% certain nobody knew, as if nobody had noticed they were sneaking away, looking at each other, touching, cars parked further down the road from the others home, both driving that isolated road to the lake… whatever. I guess that if you told someone the odds are high the answer would be “well… I thought something was going on…”

I guess I will find out today.

I am thinking of taking it further and speaking to the husband of one of my wifes friends and tell him that this OM makes passes at other mens wives. I am also going to ask him to not invite us to places if the OM is going to be there.

Not just the husbands, their wife’s also need to know that your wife has no problem pursuing other men while she’s still married.