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I don't know whether to tell her I'm done, not trying anymore (since she makes zero effort, and can't even choose between her AP and her husband and father to her children. That part is despicable, she acts like there may be a future there.

You are doing the pick me dance. Stop it.

Just my advice (what I wish I would have done):

File now. You can always change your mind. Have her served at work for full shock and awe. Tell her family now. Tell them everything, including that it was already physical and sex had probably happened but she is more than likely lying about it.

Ask your attorney to move for primary/sole custody because this is causing behavioral issues with your children and your wife’s actions are reckless, irresponsible and erratic. Give him concrete examples where she has shirked her motherly duties and examples of behavioral issues with kids caused by her instability. Use the words erratic and unstable. In fact she is being very erratic and unstable.

File. Stop the stupid couples counseling (ask your attorney about this, but it’s a complete farce while she’s conducting an affair) Tell her you’re done and that you will not remain in a wrecked and poisoned marriage tainted by infidelity.

She has already spiritually divorced you by conducting an affair that she has already admitted to, emotional or otherwise, a complete violation of the vows. Give her the list of nonnegotiable items I and others recommended. Demand NC with her AP and tell her (if you want; maybe you’re done with her) that you will discuss the possibility of reconciliation when she completes the nonnegotiables and is willing to come clean, giving you full access to her email and devices, writing out a timeline, passing a poly and a full STD panel, going to an IC that you Pick and prescreen and have a chance to meet with first.

Ask your attorney to draw up a post nuptial agreement and then share with your wife as part of the package of things she will need to do if she wants to reconcile. If this attorney won’t draft one, find another attorney.

lastly, my God, the AP is the head of HR at her company?!!? This is a complete shit show and you should go after him with everything you’ve got. You might want to consult another attorney and be sure you understand why your current attorney is so reluctant. This sounds like a fantastic lawsuit and at the very least this man will most assuredly lose his job. If you are in North Carolina you can also sue for alienation of affection. There have been several recent cases and a number of attorneys in that state would be eager to take the case.

Get another legal opinion about the consequences of telling HR. You need to speak with an attorney that has experience with sexual harassment (not divorce).

HR (and the law) views your wife as the victim.

It does not matter if the texts or her behavior or her testimony shows her as consenting. In the eyes of the law, there is no such thing as your wife consenting to have sex with the VP.

Why? because the law assumes your wife could not say no for fear of loosing her job. I'm pretty sure a trial attorney with sexual harassment experience will advise you that neither the VP or the employer has a defense.

Whoa! Wait!

You are in North Carolina?

Dude, you've got this. There's a law, something about being able to sue the AP. Talk to your atty about it. Someone here can chime in.

He sent her a text about the sunrise out her window in Dallas,

Really? Coffee? At Sunrise? IN HER ROOM? No. You meet for coffee elsewhere. NOT in a hotel room when you've been making out all over the place with this guy. And sure. He was the perfect gentleman then, right? Makes out with her everywhere else, says he's in love with her, NOW he's in her ROOM at SUNRISE and there's no sex?

Come on! She's really playing you for stupid. I'm so sorry. So really sorry. But they've had sex. What does it matter what her lying mouth says?

And if she can't choose between you, what do YOU think happened. Why can't she chose if he's not having sex with her?

This mindfuckery she's handing you is beyond disgusting. She allowed him to have you dance like a puppet for a job knowing he was having an affair with your wife. This dude is sick.

File immediately. Let her have the loser. Then sue the silly crap out of him. I wonder which is worth more to you - the money you'd get from him and the company or her? I think she sees $$$ in that VP and she won't have to work.

You are so much better than this. You have worth and immense value. Detach. Save yourself and your kids. Let. Her. Have. The. Douche. These people look in a mirror and see each other. They're just alike. You're not like them. You're better. You're worth more. And so are your kids.

I don't know whether to tell her I'm done, not trying anymore (since she makes zero effort, and can't even choose between her AP and her husband and father to her children. That part is despicable, she acts like there may be a future there.

Listen, this alone should be enough for you to D, get the separation agreement from your lawyer and hand it to her, you should NEVER be in a competition to "win" your spouse, you need to act decisively if there's any chance to R, you need to consult an employment attorney ASAP, I doubt your WW will get fired, especially when OM was in charge of HR, a lot of employment attorneys will jump at this and not charge you a dime unless they win/reach a settlement, this is sexual harassment 101 and by the head of HR no less, also she can always fine another job and spousal support can be revisited at that time, plus you know the CEO and based on what you said you have to be separated for a year before you can even file, in the event she gets fired (which I doubt) she's not going to wait a year to find another job.

Don't wait until after the holidays to take action, make this a nightmare for her and OM, EXPOSE her with ALL family and close friends NOW, As thrive in secrecy, good job on exposing to OBS btw, your WW will probably get mad so expect that, don't engage, just tell her she had the right to know.

IMHO your only chance to save the M is to go nuclear in this case, if shock and awe don't bring her back to reality then nothing will, if so, move full steam ahead with separation and D. Also if sex is a deal breaker for you, demand a polygraph and that she gets tested for STDs (you should too), if she refuses you have your answer.

Consult an employment attorney who specializes in sexual harassment ASAP, tell him about your interviews as well, the company will most likely settle for a lump sum, could be a lot of money.

If you go to the couples counseling appointment you need to walk in with a plan.

Come up with a list of things you expect her to do if she is to even be considered for R.

Next, schedule an appointment with this AP. He is in HR you say, yeah, the chattiest department of any company. Oh, and his career will be over if this gets out. You get to look him in the eye and tell him to start looking for a new job or you will out him, set a timeline when. This is to get him away from your wife.

Secondly, I would talk to your buddy who moved you guys down there. He needs to keep an eye on your wife around this dirt bag. Yeah, your wife is going to get a bad reputation for this, but she earned it.

Lastly, do a poly. It will put you at ease about whether they had sex or not. It is typically like 200-400 dollars. You get around 4 questions. Just the threat and driving her down there might prompt a confession. It did for me.

Good luck. You deserve better. Make her chase you. You are the prize here. This guys isn't leaving his wife and family. Tell her that and that she will lose everything if this gets out in her field of work. She needs to see everything she will lose. Maybe even tell her before the counseling to write out things in a top 10 priorities list. Then list how she is going to lose each of them for this guy who is married.

Brother, a few things are clear in this horrible situation.

1) Your WW is having an affair. She has not really even snapped out of it despite you knowing. So she is in emotionally pretty deep. Although it is likely all a fantasy she could snap out of, she is still in deep at the moment.

2)She almost certainly lied to you about posom going to Dallas, she knew he would be there all along.

3) The sunrise text tells you they are sleeping together. Please do not deceive yourself in any other way. It will be something you will regret and feel like a fool for if you continue to believe otherwise. Two coworkers in an affair on a business trip are going to sleep together and you have more proof of it than many people get. 98% chance they have been having sex.... and I usually give the benefit of the doubt but the facts here are pretty damn clear.

So do you really believe D is the only answer if sex was involved? Some people can R successfully despite sex you know. It is ok to explore the R option if you aren't certain. However, if you have this conviction and are certain of it, it is time to file for D.

If you change your mind and decide to try R, do the 180 and also consider filing for D. Because filing plus telling the other BS will help you break her out of the fantasy she is in. Plus tell her family members to have their help.

Regarding work, is the posom a more senior manager? Because he is the head of HR I think they will fire him either way.... he is the last person who should be doing this on the job. But if he is a VP and your wife is a director then her job may well be safe because of the power disparity.If you D, you can always consider reporting him after the D so he loses his job after the court has decided your alimony etc and hopefully your then ExWW would not lose her job if he was senior to her.

Sorry you are where you are. We've all been there. I forgave an 18 month LTA extreme sex affair. I still think about it decades later.

Out of ALL the cases that I have ever seen where a poster had enumerated circumstantial evidence (and what had been admitted), when the truth was found out, there was definitely sex involved. If your case is different, your case will be the first. In every way, there is nothing "different" about your case. This is all standard lying, cheater, denial, co worker stuff.

These aren't teenagers in middle school, "making out". Deep kissing is an extremely personal, bonding thing and leads directly to sex among adults. Whey they say they've "kissed a few times", it always turns out to be at least oral. In your case they had all nighters and you can bet it's PIV sex. It's whatever your WW usually likes and does. That's what she did.

IMO she's had sex, a lot, and is only denying it because she knows you're done.

He's the head of HR????!!!! That's the very last person, the least likely to be involved in this kind of thing. It's an extreme violation of his role. It's like the CFO stealing money.

This man is a creepy serial louse, believe it. He has to be outed. Perhaps it can be done in some anonymous fashion. That company would want to know. He'll move on to someone else. He's exposing that company to massive legal jeopardy.

With what you have said: move to D.

You have to accept what's done is done. Either be prepared to forgive it (after you find out the truth) or leave it. Those are now your realistic options. Sorry.

Ok, this post and my Reddit post has me thinking clearly. I need advice please...

1) I need to see a lawyer for the separation. I can't wait until after Christmas, although I want to make sure my kids don't suffer.

2) I need to see a lawyer for a potential lawsuit against the company, what is that type of lawyer called?

3) Yes, they probably had sex. She's not going to agree to anything because she doesn't want this marriage to continue (from what I see).

4) Who has to leave the house and get an apartment? The attorney I saw mentioned that, but I was in such a fog I don't remember.

Thanks for all you can help with. B

He sent her a text about the sunrise out her window in Dallas, which made me think he stayed with her that night. She claims no, but she might be lying.

Might be? Bud, this isn't a court of law. You don't have to have concrete proof.

You can ask her til you're blue in the face. She'll never tell you the truth.

You're still in denial. Until you wake up you'll stay where you are.

We have a couples counseling session on Tuesday, and I don't know what to do about it.

Couples counseling is a waste of hour time and money. I'd suggest cancelling it.

Talk to your lawyer in detail about whether to move out while a divorce is in process. Take notes. Follow his advice.

Same with reporting to her work. If you are going to D, you want her to be employed.

Finally, talk to your lawyer about using the AP for alienation of affection. Your divorce lawyer can handle this.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:53 AM, November 8th (Friday)]

Just looked it up. In North Carolina, there's a law called “alienation of affection.”

You can sue the OM.

Just Google it.

5) take care of yourself.

What you are going through will be the toughest experience of your life.

Finally, talk to your lawyer about using him for alienation of affection. Your divorce lawyer can handle this.

The company they both work for is where the money is. You need all the proof /evidence you can get.

Go into detective mode. Stop asking her anything all you're doing is tipping her off.

Master, you're doing a great job of getting informed through a lawyer. I think your plan of writing up a separation agreement for January 2nd is a good idea. Ideally, you should ask your WW to leave because SHE is the one who isn't sure she wants to stay married and isn't making any effort to stay married. She may fight you in which you should rely on what your lawyer says to do.

If you have evidence that doesn't make sense with what your WW is saying, it's because she's lying. We once had a poster who was in R with his WW who saw that his WW texted her friend, one she was supposed to be sharing a hotel room with, before 7 am at a conference out of town and she insisted it was nothing. Well, he found out months later it was because she spent the night in OM's hotel room and needed to text her friend to meet up that morning. It ended their marriage after 1-2 years of R and her having NC with OM that he knew of. If he texted her about watching the sunrise from her window, it's because they shared the night together in her hotel room and she's lying.

I've also found that the vast majority of WSes are not willing to throw their marriages away for someone they've never slept with. That includes being "unsure" about staying married. She's on the fence because it's been a full fledged PA with "I love yous" and she's weighing out if she can be with OM or if she would rather stay with you.

Three separate legal actions must be considered here:(if your attorney doesn’t know, probably need another lawyer):

1. Divorce petition with separation agreement - this should include an effort on your part for primary custody and you staying in the home. Make sure to give concrete examples of her erratic and unstable actions causing behavioral issues with the children.

2. Alienation of affection lawsuit against OM - North Carolina is one of the few states where you can do this. The point isn’t to really win. It’s shock and awe to make the OM be in a terrible position and disoriented.

3. Some kind of harassment/employment law claim against the OM and the company. The company will want to terminate him and settle with you.

Combined with him losing his job with the pressure of his wife knowing and your alienation is affection lawsuit — and this guy is going to crack. he’s going to fall hard and he needs to. He will ditch your wife and her entire fantasy will fall apart rapidly. Whether she comes crawling back to you is beside the point. She may not and by that time after your head is clear you may not want her at all.

This isn’t about revenge - what these three actions do is buy some spiritual, emotional and psychic space — blows up their fantasy and makes them face real consequences for their actions.

3) Yes, they probably had sex. She's not going to agree to anything because she doesn't want this marriage to continue (from what I see).

Along with this...

We went, liked it, and thought we’d take the leap. I’ll spare you the details, but there was a lot of back and forth, including her saying she didn’t want to go days before we were to leave. We went and things were rough. I got an offer a month after we moved, but she said to decline it, it wasn’t enough money. I had second thoughts but did decline and keep looking.

Tells me your marriage was not on the rocks when this started and that your wife believes that the OM will leave his wife for her. Otherwise known as an Affair Fog.

Here is the thing, you just told the OBS about her husband and your wife's affair. Be prepared for her world to blow up and for her to now say that she doesn't want to separate. More often then not the OM doesn't leave his wife for the AP. Especially when he stands a gigantic chance at loosing over half his salary. Being a VP and with the same woman since 16. There is very little chance he will not be paying out his ass for fucking your wife. Now your wife may be very content fucking up her life and allowing herself to be the side piece she has been the whole time. But I am willing to bet that this guy has had a side piece at every company he worked for.

So that was a very long winded way of saying, expect her to come back hard now that her lover will most likely lose most of his shit if he chooses her over his wife.

on a personal note, the guy I suspect my wife fooled around with also had me come in for an interview/networking type thing. So your story resonates a bit with me. Difference is my wife quit her job and has been devoted to me for the past 10 years. So I am not going to rock the boat while I can still bear the nagging gut feeling something happened.

Something else to be ready:

After the BS talks to the OBS, revealing the affair , sometimes the WS gets very angry at the BS. "How could you do this to him?" "You will ruin his family" and other nonsense like that.

If that happens, don’t argue. Just say "I’m sorry you feel that way" and walk away.

Of course your WW and the OM ruined their family. They did this to themselves. But there’s no point arguing with irrational waywards. It’s just a waste of energy.

If that happens, don’t argue. Just say "I’m sorry you feel that way" and walk away.

I would say he could get bonus points (with me anyways) if he calmly retorts "His wife has a right to know her husband is sleeping with whores"

I can imagine it like this:

Her: "Oh so now I am a whore"

him calmly: "I didn't know you slept with him too. But thanks for letting me know. So I can get tested for diseases."

But your advice is better because he won't get dragged further into this emotional cesspool.

[This message edited by Kiba at 11:21 AM, November 8th (Friday)]

Three separate legal actions must be considered here:(if your attorney doesn’t know, probably need another lawyer):

1. Divorce petition with separation agreement - this should include an effort on your part for primary custody and you staying in the home. Make sure to give concrete examples of her erratic and unstable actions causing behavioral issues with the children.

2. Alienation of affection lawsuit against OM - North Carolina is one of the few states where you can do this. The point isn’t to really win. It’s shock and awe to make the OM be in a terrible position and disoriented.

3. Some kind of harassment/employment law claim against the OM and the company. The company will want to terminate him and settle with you.

Combined with him losing his job with the pressure of his wife knowing and your alienation is affection lawsuit — and this guy is going to crack. he’s going to fall hard and he needs to. He will ditch your wife and her entire fantasy will fall apart rapidly. Whether she comes crawling back to you is beside the point. She may not and by that time after your head is clear you may not want her at all.

This isn’t about revenge - what these three actions do is buy some spiritual, emotional and psychic space — blows up their fantasy and makes them face real consequences for their actions.

Read this posted by Thumos again, I would just add that you should cancel the MC (we've seen this way too many times), it's simply a waste of time and money while your WW is in an active A, she's probably just checking boxes to later say "she tried", take the option to R from the table and file for D, it takes a long time and can be stopped if she comes around, ends her A, shows true remorse and offers full transparency, let her fight for the M she destroyed by cheating if she comes around, however regardless of what she does it's up to you if and when that happens you still are willing to R, cheaters are NOT entitled to a 2nd chance, so if this is really a dealbreaker for you, that's OK too.

Talk to an "Employer Lawyer" for the sexual harassment/employment practices case, call and make an appointment TODAY.