SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

All this is very interesting to me, as I think that the affair will not be erased regardless of who I am with in the future. For me, the A itself was not the issue. I can honestly say that I would have been one of those magical lucky as _____ who came though the A in a better place, on the other side. If my WH had been the man he is trying to be now, I think things could have been better - brought us closer - the formula, the recipe and the ingredients were there, but but but....

False R, the underground A for a year, that is what killed it. For me it's not the sex. The AP is a pathetic human, not just because she is the AP, but because she just is. She makes me laugh, to be honest. The other day I came across an old voicemail of hers to my WH from like 3 years ago (I had recovered it) and listened to half of it and ended with me shaking my head and what a simplistic dingbat she is. There is no jealousy or anger - it was just nothing for me.

I really think things would have been better had he stopped lying, but as he didn't, and the false R was so long and so egregious, we don't have a chance now.

As Devastated Dee says so aptly, below, it's not about the AP "winning" or "taking something". It's about the BS losing. Some losses that are foisted upon the BH by the WW are just too profound to ever come back from.

I have never suggested that R is for everyone. For people who KNOW that they are never going to be able to accept their WS, no matter how repentant they may be, the wiser course of action is simply to divorce. A person who can't find a way to deal with the fact that his WW "made cake" for another guy is NOT a good candidate for R. That unfortunate fact doesn't go away just because a BS doesn't like it. And I'm not even saying that it's not okay for them to try and fail. What I am saying is that if they have opted to try R and fail to reach a degree of healing which would normalize the marriage, they shouldn't continue to eat the "shit sandwich" or worse, wait DECADES before moving on.

What is the point of staying in a marriage like the example one WWTL posted in his OP? The BH is perpetually eating the "shit sandwich" but the WW is gloriously unperturbed. If someone CHOOSES to live like that, aren't they making their own shit sandwich at that point? They're not chained up in the basement, right?

People can (and do) heal. But IME, they have to be proactive about it. They can't sit around waiting for the WS to fix it because the WS can't fix it. Why REJECT healing? And what the hell is with all the push-back when it's suggested that we CAN heal ourselves. Sheesh. You'd think hurting people would be actively LOOKING for some ideas on that score.

On a side note, regarding the cake analogy... I'm sure that's probably an apt description for some men, but I've met more than my fair share of the proprietary types, and if I had to guess, I'd say they're a larger portion.

My WH had this epiphany earlier this year.

Following DDay, he went into IC. He never took it seriously. He wasted a TON of time and money... went thru 4 different IC, including 2 CSATs. He was always working on his guilt and shame. He couldn't handle A conversations, but he was working on it... If I could just wait, he'd work thru that guilt and shame and we could have the healing conversations I needed, otherwise it was DARVO.

Then early in 2019, he created a crisis with his job. He spent that year fighting for his job, losing his job, working his ass off to get his job back... from February until November this was his fight. I just wanted him to keep his paycheck coming in. I didn't want to add to his stress anymore.

Earlier this year we had a disagreement. I told him that our relationship still required these conversations. He threw it all back on me. He would listen as long as I wanted to keep talking (that attitude helped me want to open up, didn't it?).

He'll never be willing to make himself vulnerable, he'll never be open to my pain, he's not interested in it. It's too uncomfortable for him and easier to shut down and wait for it to pass.

I'm sure that he'll have the "But I thought things were great!" again.

On a side note, regarding the cake analogy... I'm sure that's probably an apt description for some men, but I've met more than my fair share of the proprietary types, and if I had to guess, I'd say they're a larger portion.

I've know very few personally. Perhaps it's me and the type of people I tend to socialize with.

I knew (acquaintance, not friend) a guy in college who stalked a GF who broke up with him. That stalker behavior is, I think, consistent with the "proprietary" type of man. I found it disgusting and nonsensical then, and still do.

Among the many reasons it's repugnant is the fundamental lack of logic. "Hmmm. So she broke up with you, which is a pretty clear message that she's not interested in spending more time with you. Therefore, dealing with her in any way (assuming you wish more time with her) is almost certainly a way to make yourself more unhappy. Therefore, why would you direct even one second of time or one watt of energy toward her? Why not direct that time and energy toward people and activities with the potential of actual happiness?"

It's always fascinating to me how a thread moves from Waited's original point to another R or don't R thread.

I think Waited found his path and there is nothing wrong with it at all.

He doesn't need my defending, or the speculation of his motivations by others either.

BS never owe a WS another chance.

Ever.

I have great respect for his choice, and Dee, and whoever else extricated themselves from infidelity.

It's one path out, glad they took it.

Go however you want, but there isn't any need to dismiss others for their choice.

I thought for sure I would have made the same choice as Waited. I'm glad I didn't.

None of my wife's choices define me.

Hell, I don't even define her entire life by the horrible choices she made. Because she made some great choices along the way too. She didn't get over on me. I don't wake up in the morning and look over and see someone who manipulated me. I see someone who fucked up horribly and then got her shit together. The good in her won the day. No AP won, no IC saved her, she did it herself. She could have hid behind bullshit or held on to her rationalizations or shame, but she didn't.

I think it kind of comes down to the idea of whether or not we think some people are worthy of redemption.

And some people may be worthy of a second chance, but it ain't owed to them.

Getting back to Waited's original take, some WS are easier on themselves than others, and I see that here on SI all the time.

I have never suggested that R is for everyone. For people who KNOW that they are never going to be able to accept their WS, no matter how repentant they may be, the wiser course of action is simply to divorce. A person who can't find a way to deal with the fact that his WW "made cake" for another guy is NOT a good candidate for R. That unfortunate fact doesn't go away just because a BS doesn't like it. And I'm not even saying that it's not okay for them to try and fail. What I am saying is that if they have opted to try R and fail to reach a degree of healing which would normalize the marriage, they shouldn't continue to eat the "shit sandwich" or worse, wait DECADES before moving on.

I absolutely agree with you that not every BS is a good candidate for R. The only problem I have with this is that you seem to be saying the reason some BS cannot R is due to a lack of healing. I don't think that's necessarily true. Depending upon our individual personality types, healing can mean divorce is the best option no matter what the WS is doing. Those who cannot R aren't necessarily lacking in healing. We just aren't compatible with the type of work required. R is a lot harder than D, in my opinion. That doesn't mean those who D are lazy, but if you know what it takes to truly R and you know that you as an individual don't even want to go through the challenges of such a path, then healing means divorce. Divorce has it's own challenges, of course. I think Mt Everest is pretty and cool, but I don't even want to do the training it would take to climb it. I might prefer white-water rafting to mountain climbing.

The only problem I have with this is that you seem to be saying the reason some BS cannot R is due to a lack of healing. I don't think that's necessarily true. Depending upon our individual personality types, healing can mean divorce is the best option no matter what the WS is doing. Those who cannot R aren't necessarily lacking in healing.

100% this. Sometimes healing means separating yourself from a person who would choose to make such incredibly toxic decisions about you. No matter how much remorse that person may exhibit later, there are some decisions that are so toxic, the only path for healing is to move on.

I think it kind of comes down to the idea of whether or not we think some people are worthy of redemption.

I don't even think that's it. I think my XWH is worthy of anything he puts his mind to. I think it would be fantastic if he turned it around and became a good honest loyal man. He can't do that with me, but I wish it for him.

It isn't about redemption. It's about how incredibly unhealthy it would be for me personally to try and make it work. I would have had to bend myself into so many pretzels mentally to become okay with something that just was not ever going to be okay with me. I was not going to ever love him the same way and I didn't want to love him the same way afterwards. It would be a living hell for me to go one more day wondering if he would do it again and not being able to trust him. It would be a living hell for me to have to remember every anniversary that this man betrayed me. It would be unlivable for me to have the mind movies and try to convince myself that any person on this earth was worth me trying to live with them after they hurt me that deeply. I don't have what it takes, and that's okay. My XWH was not worthy of R, but I could tell from the start that I was not capable of it either. I never have been able to deal with that sort of trust violation in a relationship. I can look back at all of my relationships and see that once there was any kind of even non-infidelity betrayal, the relationship died on my end. I overheard a close friend talking about me behind my back, and that friendship plummeted no matter her apologies. I had a flirty boyfriend, and that died fast. I had one man jokingly threaten to sleep with someone else, and that guy got dropped. I don't try to work it out. I leave. I run from people who mistreat me that way. I don't want to hear why or have them try and make it up to me. I just don't want to deal with that kind of person being so close to me. I did try with my XWH for a minute, but I knew I was wasting my time and actively putting myself through hell from DDay on, even before he screwed it up again. It just isn't me, and that's not to say that my personality is the right one to have. Maybe I'm actually a colder person than most, I don't know. I don't say that R is a bad thing. It just isn't the path for me.

I do know that the day I left, I felt nothing but joy. I was floating. I remember the day he relapsed on drugs, I was ashamed at how happy that made me because I was going to have to leave at any cost and just suck it up and deal with the financial devastation. Leaving was the only thing that stopped the screaming in my heart.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:57 AM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

I would have had to bend myself into so many pretzels mentally to become okay with something that just was not ever going to be okay with me.

No pretzel work for me. I’ll never be okay with what happened.

What’s more important to me is not history, it’s what we do today. It’s not that history doesn’t exist, it’s that I’m not who I was 5 years ago or 20 years ago, etc.

I’m different, I’m constantly changing. I allow for that in others.

Your choices Dee, do not make you colder at all. There are few people here who are as passionate about life and finding YOUR path forward, than you. That’s not cold or harsh to only keep people you want in your world. I really like how you got clear of it (and how WWTL found peace in his choice).

I’m just saying I didn’t have to surrender any ground or any of my self to offer my wife one last chance either. I set my expectations for the type of relationship I want and need, and my wife set her own bar far higher than I did in going forward.

After infidelity I think it takes great strength to thrive after being hurt that way, regardless of our path out.

After infidelity I think it takes great strength to thrive after being hurt that way, regardless of our path out.

I agree completely, and I am glad that R is working for you. You have a mindset that is much more amenable to it than mine, so it was a good option for you.

I had made a comment that more than a few Betrayed men’s WW are under the impression that the marriage has never better after their affair, while the betrayed husband suffers in silence. Not always the case, as it is in the post that the question came up, but far more often than most WW think.

Thank you, steadychevy for:

There was a very small study done by psychologists Charney and Parnass where they surveyed other therapists about the results of cases where a spouse committing adultery. Thirty-four percent ended in D. 43.5% continued but were rated as distressed or unhappy. 6% rated empty and 9% as improved.

Read that last part again, ladies and gentlemen, and let it sink in.

I cannot attest to the validity of the study cited nor cite similar studies. I can, however, offer my own observations from over five years of being a member on SI. That 9% seems accurate.

Sceadugenga wrote:

...I went to the Reconciliation section to look at the "Positive Reconciliation Stories" thread. I was somewhat taken aback at how relatively few male posters there were.

There's a time-stamp on every post. The Positive Reconciliation Stories' time-stamp reads: "January 5th (Thursday), 2012" Eight and a half years later and that thread is barely half full. (The Betrayed Menz threads, on the other hand, fill up a few times each year.)

There maybe a host of other reasons why so few people post in the PRS thread, why men are less apt to post on the thread than women. Still, it's impossible to ignore the obvious.

I think most couples who choose to reconcile believe they will make it. We all hope to be in that lofty 10%. We choose to believe in it. We choose to think we are capable, able, willing, etc., to be the best we can be. It's not really all that surprising to me that so many wayward spouses want to believe that their marriages are better than ever. It may seem to be more common with wayward wives, but that might also be because fewer wayward husbands are as prolific in the W Forum.

I think my own formerly wayward wife was no different. She truly wanted our marriage to be better than it was (because it wasn't all that great before she cheated). I was much the same. I truly wanted to be in that 10%.

In some ways, ours is a better marriage than it was before. In some ways. On the whole, however, I think we could have improved our relationship without the wreckage of infidelity.

But if a BS chooses R, they are bound by honor to get their healing accomplished. Otherwise, they are not a person of their word. They've offered faux-forgiveness, and THAT is on them.

I believe this statement conflates a few things. Reconciliation, healing and forgiveness are not all one in the same. They are all very different journeys. Personal healing is a very personal journey. It has little to do with reconciliation and absolutely nothing at all to do with honor, promises or, in particular, our wayward spouse. We don't heal ourselves because we offered R. We heal ourselves because no other viable options exist.

Offering the gift of R is not a vow or promise. A betrayed spouse is not honor bound to see it through no matter what happens. It's not an "unbreakable vow." At best, it's a tentative agreement, especially during the first few years.

Lastly, I'd be far more careful about making definitive statements regarding forgiveness. Of all the issues a betrayed spouse has to deal with, forgiveness might very well be the most complicated, difficult and extremely personal of them all.

I've "known" waited for several years. I know his story fairly well. I have absolutely zero reason to question the man's honor.

slight t/j

Thissucks5678, I don't think SI frowns upon MC in general. For a BS early on in R, however, MC can often do more harm than good. It's best to wait until one is confident that their WS is doing the work they need to do and truly committed.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 11:56 AM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

In my endless reading about this subject, I came across 2 books by Michelle Langley on Women's Infidelity.

She claimed she did follow up interviews with the BHs she dealt with at about 18 months post d- day. She claimed 100% of these men regretted staying. She attributed this to the initial panick about being alone and the unknown having worn off and the fact that the BH was no longer invested in competing with the OM.

She, also pointed out that in assessing the communication skills of the couples she interviewed, she,often, found the BH to be the better communicator, more in touch with his feelings, more emotionally evolved than what society stereotypes.

She found that the cheating wives expected clairvoyance and , also, th hat their husbands had, eventually, stopped being as communicative, as the only time their wives seemed open to listening was if the husband was an echo chamber, essentially parroting back the wife's expressed views.

Men get an extremely bad rap re the stereotype that they are not as open with their feelings. I read the posts by guys on this site and they are incredibly evolved and great at expressing themselves.

This is consistent with all the great male philosophers, orators, poets, artists etc.

I know when I am with my friends, some accomplished jocks that would be thought of as less likely to discuss feelings and such, we always talk about personal issues, not box scores or carburetors etc.

I mention this because I think it was hiking out who mentioned feeling that men are socialized to not discuss feelings as much. It sim pl y is not true among my group, and we are not particularly artistic or atypical men.

Men get an extremely bad rap re the stereotype that they are not as open with their feelings. I read the posts by guys on this site and they are incredibly evolved and great at expressing themselves.

This is consistent with all the great male philosophers, orators, poets, artists etc.

Oh so much truth. This is why I don't understand the "men and women can't be friends" idea. We aren't that different. I have had some of the deepest most profound conversations of my life with male friends.

Perhaps this actually needs to be an entirely new thread if it's not to be t/j of a t/j, but...

WWTL took Mrs. W's question over here to discuss.

So far nearly all the discussion has been about, or from the perspective of, the betrayed in such a situation.

But when I read Mrs. W's question I read something completely different, I read it as being about the WS--how could the WS be so blind, so unsympathetic, as to chipperly assert "our marriage is better than ever," or, "this made us stronger."

I think in our culture at large there is a very strong public set of narratives of theatrical self-redemption and public rehabilitation. These kinds of narratives are very prominent in the literature of self-help. They are strong in popular media--daytime talk, sports media, women's media, TED talks, and also in a certain kind of semi-Christian or culturally but not theologically Christian popular counselling literature.

The point is, many different communities which otherwise don't have much in common share in this common American pop culture master narrative of self-redemption.

This narrative, regardless of the specific trappings, always involves a few common tropes. The speaker is always speaking from hindsight. They tell a story of personal fall, a period of fairly theatrical comeuppance with some theatrical acts of public or showy contrition, tell of How I Learned Something in the best after-school special style, and then tell of How much better a person they are as the result of this adversity, how it became a milestone for gratifying personal growth. And then, silently or overtly, they wait for applause, positive feedback, validation, ego kibble.

This narrative is everywhere. And, one can see how it is crack to newly exposed waywards, or a subset of them. Because the whole package so appeals to that wayward need to get validation without real introspection and real accountability. "Ok yes I screwed up but I've learned! In one cathartic moment I saw who I was and now I am already different! And gosh, I can already see ways to package this story that keep me at the center, and make this my hero's journey, and will get me kibble for the excellence of my public contrition and my inspiring journey of redemption! Woo who, TED talk or church small group leadership, here I come!"

But all this skips the real heart of contrition, which is the hard grinding work of accepting real responsibility, understanding and rewiring yourself, and that delicate work HO speaks of, of coming to accept who you really are (Mrs W calls this her 'I didn't really love him' awakening in her story), and, coming to authentically love yourself again (or more often, for the first time) while still and always shouldering accountability and the need to make what atonement you can for your past harms.

Not everyone is up for it. And some, who might have been up for it with better luck, never find a place like SI or a challenging counsellor, and instead find the literature of cheap redemption and go all in on it.

To me, the tell of someone in the thrall of cheap redemption is the key phrase "our marriage is better than ever." This is not a thought or phrasing or assertion that comes to the lips of someone with a contrite heart. The truly contrite heart is humble. It is dedicated to being safe and empathetic each day. It focuses on gratitude. And, it is not proud or boastful. Not mired in shame any longer either, but not boastful.

So, setting aside what the BS may or may not be communicating in these situations, I believe there are sometimes WSes on the other side who try to lock both themselves and their BS into the master narrative of cheap contrition--and who never find the still and humble heart of real contrition as a result.

Edited-spelling

[This message edited by Owl6118 at 12:41 PM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

Speaking of deep men...I think you're onto something, Owl. My XWH embraced that exact narrative that you described in his recovery. It absolutely was his new crack for a while. That white shining light of redemption was all over him and he was enthralled with this story of himself.

None of it was humble. He was redeemed and saved.

Those of us who had gone through hell because of him weren't so amused. None of it required empathy on his part. It was all about him, the star of the show, the suddenly better man.

False R, the underground A for a year, that is what killed it.

False R is what killed it for me too. My STBX also wasn't remorseful so there is that too. But if you ask him he thought things were going great after False R even though we were still having major arguments, he was still acting like an ass, and he still came home late. He is still trying to convince himself that we had a good marriage oh the webs that we weave.

I suspect that divorced betrayed spouses generally think much less about it, if at all. I can only go on how I am feeling and the feeling of lightness and liberation that comes from moving toward D. I'm moving tangibly and with real steps I don't want to talk about here.

Tell you what, I'm going to ask a question in the D/S forum about how much people who are divorced think about their spouses' affair. I'm willing to bet I get an overwhelming response of not much or hardly at all.

Unless I am here posting about this stuff, I very rarely think about it. It doesn't intrude into my daily life. I don't really trigger anymore. I did for a while after leaving, but that's about 99% gone. I can say what he did without flinching and it doesn't cause me pain to talk about it at this point. I'm not trying to love him, though, and I don't see him, and I expect that's why it's not anything to me anymore.

Yes, there's damage to heal from, but it's easier for me to do so without the one who caused the damage in my home every day. It's easier now that I don't love him. That made a profound difference for me.

These is nothing wrong with trying, but if you don’t Heal according to you you are not a person of their word. You also now have no honor.

I think that's a misreading of the counsel you find on SI. I agree that BSes need to do a lot of work in R. R takes a lot of effort by both partners. I always think it's best for a BS to heal, with or without the WS, because that means getting authentic, and I believe authenticity makes for a better life.

But a BS can heal without R. And starting R is committing to work for R unless and until you hit a relationship issue that you can't resolve in ways that satisfy both partners.

No. If you realize that you can't/won't heal, you do the honorable thing and get a D. You don't lie to your WS by telling them that you're okay when you're not.

I don't think it's only about honor. I think it's about legitimate self-interest.

Why put yourself through decades of a bad M? That's a question all unhappy spouses need to ask themselves. A lot of times, I bet the answer is something like 'too scared.'

I know many people, especially men, say they don't want to give up half their assets - but as Bigger pointed out, those assets belong to the M, to both partners. Besides, even though the assets may get split 50-50, how come D'ed womens' standard of living goes down?

Whatever reasons one has for staying in a bad M, they can come from conscious choice or from self-victimization. (To the many spouses who need time to prepare to split, staying in a bad M while preparing for D is the opposite of self-victimization.) It's one thing to decide one will be better off to stay in the bad M; it's another to make that decision and keep moaning about it inside. I have great sympathy for those who choose to stay under conditions I think are awful. I don't mean to criticize. I mean to argue that you can make the decision without beating yourself up for doing so.

Not to mention the problem the betrayed husband has with his wifes sex acts is his ego is too fragile.

I think this IS a problem for most BSes, not just for men. Even if you enter d-day with a strong sense of self, you're very unlikely to emerge unscathed.

But after being betrayed is not the time to cower in fear with your shattered ego. It's a time to change, to find your inner strength, to challenge the ways you attack yourself, and to change your attack-self inner dialog to a nurture-self one.

My reading says to me that most As are not conducted as attacks on the BS. Rather, they result from the WS's lack of boundaries. My beef is with my W, not with her ap.

I think the big emotional loss comes from lost illusions - the sense of safety, of being loved, of connection, of being able to rely on one's WS. That's a terrible blow, but virtually all of us can heal from it. In fact, once the smoke cleared, I thought this was a gain, not a loss. Shattering illusions brings one closer to reality. Truth can hurt for a while, but it's healing in itself.

A second emotional loss comes from my W's withholding important stuff from me. That's on her. She found out after d-daythat I accepted and loved her even though she didn't accept or love herself. I know this loss can't ever be made up. I know it's all on her ... the loss is painful for me, and I guess I still don't understand how she could think an A was a good idea. It happened, though, and I have to accept it - and choose my response. It doesn't take any pretzel logic to know my W was and is responsible for herself.

A third loss was the sex. I've wanted sex with her and only her since 1965. Her history as a CSA survivor put a lot of barriers in our way. Taking down the barriers ... we made progress in or decades together, but we were still low on the curve. She made a big leap in her A. She should have done that work with me. That, too, is a loss that can't be made up. We just can't go back in time.

It doesn't take pretzel logic to deal with those losses. What it takes is facing reality, feeling my feelings, and processing them out of my body. My body keeps some of those feelings around out of fear that she'll betray me again. I have to accept that. If I left, I expect my body would still hold onto those feelings in case I hook up with someone else.

*****

I think D is easier for some people, and R is easier for others.

We both wanted R, and we both were willing to do the work. R has been easier for us - way less disruption in our lives, way more connection - it's easier to work with something that was good than to have to build something entirely new.

D would have been the harder path for us.

There are so many people I've met on SI for whom D was the easier path. (And I'll take the opportunity here to say: Man, your XSes really made lousy choices in losing you all)

My hypothesis is:

If you both want R and do the work, R will be easier than D for you.

If only one of you wants R, or if only one or neither of you will do the work, D will be easier.

It is all too easy as the BS to allow things to slide.. If like me.. You like an easy going low stressful life you will let things slide.. My job is stressful enough I don't need more stress.. So you bottle things up you don't say anything.. Until the day you do and it all explodes in a maelstrom of anger and injustice.

If you are truly aiming for R you have to be honest...brutally honest.. If you are having a bad day.. Tell them.. If a day is coming up which is a trigger to you.. Tell them.. See if they can help you get over things.

My issue was.. Was that my WW thought she could gloss things over and keep the OP on her life.. No matter how many times I told he otherwise.. I wanted to R.. I still loved her with all my heart.. And she did make changes.. Except that one.. She never went NC.. EVER.. so even though I wanted R.. She realistically didn't... She was a through and through selfish cake eater..

And when I dropped the final bombshell on her.. She was shocked as she thought she was trying to be better... Just never realised how much of a sticking point NC was..

I think that is the issue.. WS think they are doing everything needed.. But there are things that they aren't.. Things it is difficult to talk about.. And unless they are talked about openly.. Regardless of the pain they may cause.. They will lead to an unhappy marriage or divorce...

Ultimately the ONLY way to a successful R is ALOT of honest hard conversations.. And unfortunately alot of men (myself included) struggle to have those.. Partly as we don't want to rock the boat anymore.. We don't want to divorce.. But mostly as we don't want to hurt our WS.