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I'd like some clarification. How did you push her into the swinging lifestyle? Was she forced? Both of you have said she enjoyed it,but now it seems that wasn't the case?

Posted by Neanderthal:

It's okay Faithfulman,

Thanksgiving2016 is right. If I had been honest sooner, the narrative would have been very different. My wife protected me here. She could have set the record straight. Instead of outing me, she took the brunt of SI's anger. I didn't ask her to do that.

66charger's defense of me really hit me hard. A stranger who was understandably skeptical of me in the beginning, was now defending me. I couldn't allow that anymore. I had swayed good people's minds in my favor based on lies of omission.

I will answer any questions and take whatever fallout I've created here at SI.

I've read all over SI religiously over the last 5 months. One thing I've realized is I have way more in common with waywards. I'm not just talking about infidelity. My whole make up is that of wayward thinking. The base of it is how terribly selfish I am. I don't think of others or the consequences. I don't have empathy. I understand the concept but I am not capable of doing it. I am manipulative, and a good enough talker to get out of most situations. I'm extremely critical of others.

I see all of that Neanderthal.

Since you first wrote the story of having sex with the other woman without your wife's permission, I considered that cheating.

You've also admitted to verbal and mental abuse of your wife.

Honestly, I think she would have been well within a sensible course of action to leave.

On the other hand she really went nuclear on you with her affair.

All of this leads me to that you should not be together, certainly not for a good while until you both sort out your damage.

From what I have read, and I have read both of your threads and corresponded with both of you via the forum, is that you appear to be attempting more proactively to take responsibility and admit your faults at a much faster rate than your wife.

Considering that you are both cheaters, maybe the story has a happy ending for you both.

I don't think either of you are evil, so I sure hope you both land upright. Maybe in the future, together.

Good luck to you Neanderthal,and Lifedestroyer as well.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 9:07 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

It feels weird to be able to comment on this thread now.

I'm genuinely surprised to see people so surprised. Neanderthal gave details about his wayward behavior pretty early on. I was perplexed that his thread wasn't moved to General at the time, and I surmised that the swinging nature of the relationship made it just ambiguous enough that the mods couldn't unanimously agree on a course of action. But I always saw him as a madhatter and said as much on his wife's thread, to the extent that I could do so without violating guidelines. I found people who agreed with me, and I debated people who didn't. Neanderthal just offered a few more details, but the fact that the swinging was his idea, that he forced it hard, that he violated clear boundaries by engaging in PIV, that the BJ was something his wife only agreed to give the husband so that Neanderthal would get the same from the wife -- I've read all of that before. If anyone doubts it, I'll try to find a few hours to pull the quotes.

IMO, this is another case of "first to market" phenomenon. In a madhatter situation, the first partner to post is usually given primary BS status, even if they weren't the first to cheat. As details emerge, the same behavior that would unquestionably have qualified the OP as a WS (if the spouse had posted first) is excused or ignored because people are already invested in the OP as a BS.

That's on us, honestly. Both parties told us what happened. We can't get outraged if we didn't read the whole thread, or if we saw the facts and just didn't take them all in.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 9:58 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

I’ve read both LD and N threads and as dysfunctional as the relationship became, one of the overwhelming feelings that I’ve gotten from them is their love for one another. Certainly their actions up to all of this didn’t always convey that but I believe it exists nonetheless.

Neanderthal, I have no sage advice to offer. Perhaps this is a dealbreaker and maybe it isn’t. In many cases, I think a BS should kick the WS to the curb and never look back. For whatever reason, I feel differently about your situation. Of course what I feel doesn’t really matter but I hope that you and your W find a way back to each other.

Whatever the outcome, I do wish you the best.

I'd like some clarification. How did you push her into the swinging lifestyle? Was she forced? Both of you have said she enjoyed it,but now it seems that wasn't the case?

There was no gun to your head kind of moment. I don't believe I ever put down an ultimatum. But I usually get what I want. I'm sure she felt obligated in a lot of ways. No self esteem, our marriage was dissolving. She was afraid to lose me.

Once it started though...we both enjoyed it. her more than me. IMO

Honestly, I think she would have been well within a sensible course of action to leave.

She should have left me or I shouldn't have been such a selfish prick.

you appear to be attempting more proactively to take responsibility and admit your faults at a much faster rate than your wife.

Its been over six years since my infidelity. I wouldn't say I've been in a rush to be proactive. It wasn't until she set off her own nuclear bomb that I started to look at myself.

It feels weird to be able to comment on this thread now.

Well that makes two of us, its weird for me too.

BSR, you were spot on with your initial position on me. My prior infidelity doesn't mean what she did to me hasn't completely fucked me up.

that the BJ was something his wife only agreed to give the husband so that Neanderthal would get the same from the wife

I did not say that. Nor is that what happened. It was what I hoped would happen but didn't. I never really received anything from that particular woman. I'm not correcting you because im better because it didn't happen. I'm only correcting you to stop made up info from spreading. Like that my wife was asleep during my PinV event. I don't know where that came from.

I'm with BSR on this one. I've watched both of their threads from the beginning and often wondered why this thread wasn't moved early on. It seemed obvious that this was a mad hatter situation and that N introduced the wayward behavior into the relationship long before LD's affair. I give her a lot of credit because she never brought his actions up on her thread or tried to use them as a justification. Other people carried that information over from his thread to hers but she hasn't talked about it much.

Hellfire, I can't speak for their situation but as someone who was also talked into participating in the swing lifestyle by someone that I loved, I have a pretty good idea of how that could happen. It starts out with someone bringing it up in a conversation and the other person saying no, I'm not intrested. Then, the topic keeps coming up, over and over, because the requesting party is trying to wear the other person down. You have one person constantly asking for something and the other person constantly saying no. It puts a strain on the relationship, especially when it comes to intimacy. Then, add in the layer of the request coming from your spouse, someone who claims to love you and someone that you love. You want to make them happy and have a harmonious relationship, and if there are other problems in the relationship you start to think that maybe this will help fix those other problems. So, you eventually give in. It's awkward and not enjoyable the first time, but with enough alcohol, you start to relax and things can feel good in the moment. You tell yourself that you're doing this for your partner and sometimes you just suck it up and deal. It doesn't mean it's something you necessarily want to do but you're going along with it to make your spouse happy. Believe me, I've been there. The downside is, once it happens once, your spouse is more apt to push you for a repeat performance and then ask for more and more and more.

As you can see in this situation N always wanted more, pushed for it and when he couldn't get LD to agree to give him the more that he wanted, he took it, without her consent and without her knowledge. I'm not clear if this was also during the time period where he was telling her he didn't love her and wasn't attracted to her, but if it was, that adds yet another layer onto the situation and why she might have agreed to participate.

I've often wondered if LD was the first person to find this site and gave her version of the story with the full history, if the responses to both of them would have been different than what they've been so far. I don't understand why some people here feel entitled to know every step and every action LD is taking to make things right, to know everything she discusses with her IC, and use it as a way to decide if in their mind, she is taking the appropriate steps. We're strangers on an internet forum. She doesn't owe anybody anything, and certainly not in an environment where many people were biased against her.

Of course none of this means that what LD did was right or justified, or that N isn't in a world of pain because of her actions. It seems clear that she's had a lot of consequences for her actions but the behavior from years ago was not really addressed or dealt with. I think perhaps a little grace should be extended on both sides.

[This message edited by needing_clarity at 10:53 AM, December 15th (Sunday)]

All other things being equal, I think madhatters need to heal as BSes and as WSes. I don't think you misrepresented yourself as a BS - your W violated her vows to you, so you're a BS.

You should have come clean about your own cheating earlier. You didn't. You can't go back in time. Hiding that truth is another aspect of the 'wayward mindset' that you have to change, if you want to heal as a WS.

A person can't maximize benefit from SI without being honest with us and with him/herself. If you've come clean, I recommend 1) resolving the grief, anger, fear, and shame that comes with being betrayed and 2) changing from betrayer to good partner.

ETA: I'm not sure I got my message across clearly. Perhaps it would have been better to have said:

Neanderthal,

You're both BS & WS. You deserve the same compassion every other BS deserves when you post as a BS. And the same goes for when you post as a WS.

As you read responses to your posts, just remember which hat you had on when you posted.

And congratulations on coming clean. That's a very healing thing to do.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:39 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

I hope that posters will continue to show compassion for Neanderthal. As he said, his past behavior did not make his wife's betrayal any less devastating to him. He's still the same person that he was yesterday, trying to figure out how to rebuild his life in the aftermath. Speaking as a madhatter, the knowledge that you inflicted pain on the person you loved, the same one who is now hurting you, does not make things any better. It makes it worse. The guilt, remorse, and full comprehension of the agony you caused, not to mention the knowledge that your BS-turned-WS understood that pain and still thought it was worth it to cheat on you anyway, is just more shit inside the sandwich.

If this information helps build a little more compassion for LD's past suffering, I think that's a good thing. But FFS, let's not use it to exonerate anyone or to get involved in a game of "whose actions were worse." It's possible for both partners in a marriage to make terrible, hurtful choices and to refuse to admit it. We don't have to choose a side.

SI can be both a blessing and a curse. When we come here we are all in a state of chaos. We are hurt, confused, angry, sad, betrayed or the betrayers, and we are seeking answers that can help us put our lives back together in some functioning manner.

These blessings and curses come with lots of opinions, advice and comments, and communication styles. Some come with 2 x 4's, some more gentle and loving, some straight forward but supportive, and some give advice like there's no other way to do it in any shape or form. It's very overwhelming. And we have all been there.

Here's the thing I've come to realize. To finally get to this point means you have hit rock bottom. You're desperate for change and you are trying to find ways to fix yourself, help the ones you've broken, find a way back to each other or walk away and get through the goodbyes, and after that, find a way to live again hopefully finding joy and fulfillment.

At this point, going back and forth about details, who is to blame, who cheated first etc. becomes counterproductive. There are two people that are here for the same reasons we all were. We all are here with different experiences and knowledge, and for some us of, we can probably relate to specifics. We can really be the helping hand that a person needs in this moment.

N - The past is the past. It happened. Now it's time to figure out the whys so you can break free from that bondage of your past, become a healthier person, and start to heal not only for yourself, but for your family as well. You can do this and you will!

[This message edited by Hutch at 10:54 AM, December 16th (Monday)]

I am ws, I hope it's okay to respond. I have stayed off your thread until now because I have tried to support your wife, and also when BS are new they may not want to hear from WS. So, skip this if you want.

Sharing all this is difficult. I put her through hell. I was supposed to protect and cherish her. Instead I broke her. I am the reason I lost my best friend. She will become a better person, away from me. She will thrive away from me. She doesn't owe me anything anymore. I just hope for an amicable divorce.

H and I did the swinging stuff before we got married. While I was the one who eventually ended it, and it was hurting my soul, I can't give my husband more accountability for it than me. Yeah, it was more his agenda than mine. But, for me a big precipitating factor was I wanted to try out being with women, and that sounds like that was your wife's goal with it as well. At some point, you have to realize that her getting what she wanted in that situation but you having way more restrictions, wasn't realistic. Neither of you should have agreed to those rules. You inauthentically did in hopes of pushing the envelope further. She inauthentically did it because it allowed her to do something she wanted without having to reciprocate any perceived loss by allowing you to do similar things. Add in drinking and drugs, you both were playing with fire - and equally responsible for it's flames. I am not saying it didn't hurt your wife, but at the same time I am not sure the expectations were fair or reasonable? And, if she wasn't holding her boundaries, that was likely an indicator that she already had self worth/self love issues prior rather than "due to". Those are the same issues that led her to an affair.

I think you are taking more accountability than is needed. Yes, these behaviors were not ideal, and you broke an agreement. I don't think you can compare it to people seeing each other behind your back.

I think it's wonderful if you are working on your drinking, and thinking about ways you can be a better person for you. I would encourage that you think about some sort of support system even if it's not AA. Drinking is a coping mechanism that is often built on past trauma that needs to be healed. Cheating can be that way as well. I fail to see the trauma being related to your swinging adventures, it was probably broken before that. If you are guilty of anything it might be objectifying her sexually. Work on digging into that a little more, but I don't see it as the crime you see it, but as an improvement for how you see women in general and someone who you might have as a life partner.

Have you considered going to IC? I think the benefits of that could be far reaching for you. I always think accountability is important, but you have to also have good boundaries on what you are taking accountability for. Pre-A issues - there is nothing wrong with you looking at how you contributing to those. The A itself belongs only to her. The swinging, 50/50 bad decision making -both were inauthentic about it, with your own selfish agendas.

I tend to agree with the above poster, both of you have a fair share of damage. Working on yourself is a wonderful thing. Her working on herself is a wonderful thing. But, you need to get clearer on what is you work on, I think some sort of therapy would help with that if you can swing it. I hate to see you leave if this is your major place to suss out your thinking. For me, the most valuable part of this place has been to be able to share my thoughts and learn where they are distorted by getting feedback.

You deserve a happy life. LD deserves a happy life. Your little one too. Take good care.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:44 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

There's no justification for cheating, period. As you said from the beginning, you were both swinging. There are risks with that behavior known to both of you. You stepped over a line during that time but you didn't sneak around and hide what you did. She chose long after the fact to start sneaking around behind your back with another man. Her behavior isn't equal to yours. You betrayed a 'rule' while she watched. She went full betrayal mode behind your back. She saw the knife coming at her. You got the knife in the back not even knowing that there was an issue. Not the same; not comparable. Like any other vanilla cheater, her behavior is inexcusable. I'm glad to hear that you're taking stock of your life and your ways. That's good for your future happiness. In the mean time don't take on responsibility for your STBX's behind-the-back betrayal. Her decision and the consequences of it are not yours to bear. I wish the best for you.

If this information helps ... I think that's a good thing. But FFS, let's not use it to exonerate anyone or to get involved in a game of "whose actions were worse."

I agree with this.

Thank you all for not burning me at the stake.

I cannot help her, so I'm looking for something to work on. No woman should be treated the way I treated her. The sad things is, I don't even remember how bad the abuse was. Like how often. I drank a lot then. Which is no excuse but I just don't remember. I did tell her I wasn't in love with her anymore. Or attracted to her. Both are very fucked up. Especially since I don't remember ever not wanting to be with her sexually.

The things I said and the kiss with OW while she was pregnant. These are my biggest regrets. Im not leaving out the PinV, I just don't view that act as being as bad. Those of you who have never experienced the swinger lifestyle just won't really understand. I do realize my opinion on this is irrelevant. It what my wife thinks and feels. Since it was rugswept and we are currently no contact, I may not now.

I also treated my wife poorly after the swinging stuff. Yes I quit drinking, which ended alot of my terrible behavior but not all. I never said I love you regularly. I took her for granted. I didn't do any love language acts. At least not ones that meant anything to her. I never texted asking how her day was going. Or good morning or anything. In fact about the only thing I would text is: "what's for dinner?". That's pretty pathetic.

What's really sad is how often I would talk her up to co-workers. Explaining how lucky I was and proud of her I was. But I never fucking told her that. I never told her how grateful I was to be apart of her life.

Definitely alot to work on

I did tell her I wasn't in love with her anymore. Or attracted to her.

When did you tell her this before or after D-Day? I said this after my False R and meant it.

(((Neanderthal))) It does sound as if there were problems before her A and the swinging lifestyle exacerbated them.

Our story is similar but at different times. I had a RA after I caught my WS groping his co-worker on my birthday. He went on to have more A's including one A which happened before this groping.

I decided to try swinging with STBX after his 2nd caught A with MOW. When I felt like I wasn't getting anything out of the experience BUT he was it made me feel icky and I just wanted to have a normal M. When I drew my line in the sand and said no more swinging my STBX had a tantrum which led to him withdrawing from the M. His withdrawing from the M led to my decision to S/D.

Swinging is for those who do not have issues with their partner already. You have to have a lot of trust in those kinds of situations as well. Something we did not have. It honestly was one of the worst decisions (besides my RA) that I have ever made about the M.

All you can do is go up from here. Start working on WHO you want to be. This may or may not include your W. Best of luck to you!

I did tell her I wasn't in love with her anymore. Or attracted to her.

When did you tell her this before or after D-Day?

It was before the swinging. Maybe through the beginning of the swinging. So for a time reference, 6-8 years ago.

The day before DDay when I was becoming suspicious of her, she told me how much it hurt her that I didn't say I love you anymore. And that it was awkward for her to say it to me then. I now know how much it hurts to hear your spouse admit they don't love you. Her saying "it was awkward", will stay with me a long time.

I may not have said it often. Obviously not often enough in the last half decade. But I really did love her.

After DDay I swear I could see a sense of relief on my wife's face. She finally realized I loved her. I just wish I could have proved that to her before hand.

Wow just wow. I can’t believe you let everyone come down on her like that when you were no better. Hers now sounds more like a RA

So now everybody who has been betrayed gets a free pass to have a RA (several YEARS later) and not be held accountable for their actions?

Yogi Berra said, "It ain't over til it's over." Your marriage isn't over unless you want it to be. You both started out marriage making big marriage killing mistakes and just kept on at it. You pushed her and she pushed back. She just pushed back harder than you. I don't care what anyone says you can push some people hard enough to push them completely out of your life. That is what both of you have done. I know everyone says there is no reason to have an affair. Well guess what. There is no reason for someone to make their spouse feel like they are unimportant, not cared about, less than worthy and completely unloved. About 6 or 7 years into my marriage my wife made me feel very unloved. She was having to deal with her family and I was completely forgotten. This went on for about 3 or 4 years. Being military and in Special Forces I stayed gone as much as I could. She showed our children love and attention but not me. I use to say that I was number 5 in our home. The children were 1, 2,and 3, the dog was 4 and I was a distant 5. If this had continued then I can't truthfully say that I wouldn't have found that attention from somewhere else. Luckily we did get on the same track and have had a wonderfully great marriage for the last 40 years. If you really want it and she really wants it then you can have what you want. You just have to draw a line in the sand and say "we start clean from here", and mean it. I do wish you well.

[This message edited by anoldlion at 11:55 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

You should have come clean about your own cheating earlier. You didn't. You can't go back in time. Hiding that truth is another aspect of the 'wayward mindset' that you have to change, if you want to heal as a WS.

Respectfully, this was covered on page 7. Could he have brought it up on page 1? Sure. But it did come up early on in this thread.

I would like to say that anoldlion is right, it's not over until it's over. I do think you both need to work on being healthier people, but from both of your threads I think there is still a lot of love there, and a daughter who you both obviously adore.

There have been couples separate and even divorce and they came back to each other in time. I definitely think that no matter what each of you really need to be on the journey of getting better for yourselves, no matter who you end up with in the future. But, in many ways, if you want it to be with her, then that is still possible.

I know at Christmas this has got to have your depression at an all time low. I hope you can find your footing towards feeling more optimistic about yourself and your life. This is one chapter, you have a whole book to write. What do you want it to look like? Please take good care of yourself.

Welcome to General, Neanderthal. After blocking yourself from Wayward, you're running out of places to post.

Like BraveSirRobin, I'm surprised that it took your thread as long as it did to make it here. At the same time, I think it was good for you that it lasted in JFO as long as it did. You are so much stronger now than when you first arrived.

Wow just wow. I can’t believe you let everyone come down on her like that when you were no better. Hers now sounds more like a RA

I disagree with this ENTIRELY. This is not a new revelation. Neanderthal raised the swinging and his line-crossing extremely early on in his thread. He was certainly castigated for it. Neanderthal himself was his own worst critic - he deeply believed that due to his previous behavior, he deserved his wife's affair. He has self-identified here as a cheater since early August. In his own words, from way back then:

I haven't completely decided to divorce. I could I? That's to hypocritical. I am just as responsible or more for her affair. The guilt I feel is almost unbearable. I am a cheater, I broke my wifes heart and now she broke mine.

Now I wait.....

wait to see if i'm carrying an STD for life.

wait to see if my wife realizes shes probably better off without me.

wait to see if I have anything left to give.

I am an adulterer. The worst kind of people.

Although I am responsible, I cant help the feeling of betrayal. It hurts so much.

Despite the fact that he was newly betrayed, he was hardly playing the victim. Nor was he vilifying his wife. Still, people told him to suck it up. This was at a time when his wounds were very fresh and when he was awaiting the result of his STD test after having recently learned (via TT) that his wife's AP had herpes. During this time, his wife was lying and manipulating him and everyone on here. She won many people over and they would go back and forth between her thread and his and tell him that she was remorseful and deserved R (despite his reservations about her honesty/sincerity). I have NEVER seen a BS treated this way on SI.

This continued for months, then his mother died unexpectedly. His wife continued to trickle truth him. In the aftermath of his mother's funeral, she tried to gaslight him into believing that she would fail the polygraph even though she was telling the truth. He had to go through with the polygraph in order to get the truth. She trickle-truthed right to the end - giving the final details not to him, but to the polygraph administrator. It was only really then that his wife had people "come down on her" so to speak. By that point, she had an almost 40 page thread and an obvious following, who were understandably irritated with having invested their time and energy in someone who was using them as pawns in her manipulation. This was not caused by Neanderthal any more than her affair was.

I don't say any of this to vilify his wife. Did she screw up? Obviously. Spectacularly even. But I don't see her as fundamentally different than most of the other new Waywards here. She is broken, but she is not irredeemable. She is her own worst enemy, she can be her own best friend.

I'm also not saying this to excuse Neanderthal's prior actions. I don't begin to consider myself an expert in swinging or in alcoholism, but I do think the context of his transgressions matters. His line-crossing have been known by both of them long before any of this and I believe that people are entitled to define what counts as cheating in their own marriages. Through the process of experiencing his wife's betrayal, N now considers himself a Wayward as well. He has identified himself as a Madhatter in his profile for months. Unlike many new BS's with histories of Wayward behavior, he is not minimizing his past actions. He was the one who was uncomfortable remaining in JFO in the circumstances.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 6:18 PM, December 17th, 2019 (Tuesday)]