SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't believe that one should feel they would or actually should offer R (or do anything of a similar nature) BECAUSE they ask for R (or ask for grace in any similar situation). In fact, I don't believe that should have anything to do with the decision.

If my husband cheated, I would likely stay married if he wasn't planning on leaving me, but not because he R'd with me. It would be because I love him and our family, and because R would be preferable to single motherhood (within reason, of course). And I wouldn't expect him to feel ENTITLED to R simply based on the fact that he and I got back together after our divorce. I would feel that they are independent of each other.

This is very different from my mindset when we did R after divorce---at that time, I agreed to try again in part because I felt like I "owed" it to him after having cheated. I've gotten healthier since then and don't believe such decisions should be made based on what the other person did or what one would like the other person to do/have done.

I, too, have not read all of the replies, so am speaking directly to this question:

am hoping some BS can tell me how they can offer the gift of R?

Before this I never believed I would. I thought to do so was weak and needy. Like I couldn't do any better than stay with someone who fucked me over in such as massive and in my face way? Why would I even think about lowering myself to accept that as my only option?

Then it happened. And for me, I recognized from the beginning some of the very personal dynamics between my H and myself that likely was in play in his decisions. I knew I could kick him out the door the day he finally uttered the words we had been building up to for days "I loved her". There, he said it. It was real. It was beginning to make sense. I was angry. I beat the shit out of him (not my best day, and unfortunately others followed. It's how I handled my pain and fear and anger in those early months). But I saw that after all I was throwing his way. He was still there. Still trying to hold me. Still crying and saying over and over how sorry he was. And despite my best judgment, something inside believed him. Believed him enough that I didn't kick him out. Rather, I decided to give it a chance. I wanted to hear the whole story (it took months for the full truth to finally be revealed out his fear that at any moment I would flee or simply be done with him). I wanted to UNDERSTAND why he did what he did. So I listened. And I reviewed our "old" pre-A marriage and had some insights. I was slowly putting things together, and it all was leading me to a place where I was able to give him a chance to prove himself to me.

Grace, compassion, wisdom? I don't know. It just was. It's all I knew to do. Instinct. Flying by the seat of my pants stuff. I wouldn't find SI for 7 MONTHS post DDay, so I just did what came naturally to me. Divorce would have been the easy option (in my thinking). Staying around to see what he could do, what he was really made of, and how we could be as a couple if we really found a way to figure this out. . . well, it seemed like the right choice at the time. And I believe I made the right choice. Not the easy choice, but the choice that made sense for me, for us, given our situation. Three years later he is still doing the work and has it is now second nature to him to be in "surviving infidelity" mode 24/7. We still read books, talk about what we've been through, he's in IC, we likely will return to MC.

So how does one offer the gift of R? By digging deep within oneself and finding compassion for the flawed people we all are. Giving someone a chance, a gift of a "do over" of sorts. Yes, we BS are rockin' people! And my fWH is one of the luckiest men on the planet because of me

I didn't chose it. I allowed it to happen based on my WS's behavior after d-day. And it was not stellar always but if I draw a trend line from d-day to now, it is trending positively and at a good angle.

It was not grace, it was not pity, it was not obligation and it was not fear that allowed R to enter our lives. It was a combined search for authenticity, for accessing reality, for growing into people we wanted to be and for determining if a future together is preferable or not. It comes with an incredible amount of hard work, harder than anything I have ever done before.

We're still early in our journey but we're liking what we are developing at this point. It has not come easily at all and not without an incredible amount of emotions and soul searching. Our relationship has changed as it should after the A. It's up to each individual to decide what they need, what they want, what is okay and what is not.

There is no predicting this outcome, sorry. You may want the answers, but they are so dependent on each individual and their situation. It is not based on a formula because even if a WS is a model of recovery, that still does not mean the BS can or will stay.

Life needs to be in the moment moving forward once enough healing has commenced.

I have a question for you FF. What are you willing to do to foster R for you and your BS?

ff, It is always surprising to read here about people who were mistreated and felt the pain of betrayal themselves, who then go on to mistreat and betray.

In truth, how and why some people decide to try, or are able to move past infidelity in marriage is a question with an endless possibility of answers, situations, motivations, results etc... It seems that this question is posed to satisfy an inner longing to know if your wife would try to work through your cheating with you? You seem to be ashamed of what you have done, and this perhaps clouds your ability to understand how and why you could be forgiven, or could forgive the same actions. The journey of a married couple who can take the crisis of infidelity and turn it into an opportunity for healing, repair, growth and reconnection is a very powerful experience. One that I believe only people that have gone through that journey could get.

I have been through R (albeit false) when I was in a LTA relationship prior to meeting my wife. This woman was very charismatic, I was a mess, she treated me like shit, cheat on me, gaslighted me and would throw me enough crumbs to hoover me back in. This scheme of hers worked for a very long time until I was unable to take it any more. I finally mustered enough dignity to finally walk away but I think the entire experience has swung the R needle in the entire other direction. I suppose I now have an issue with forgiveness because of all the pain I went through with this woman. I should have been man enough to walk away instead of continually getting disrespected and walked on. I know it takes two to R and she was just as broken as I was, but the feeling persists.

What is surprising is that you basically became this woman in your marriage. You knew what it felt like to be lied to and betrayed, and yet you did it to your wife. Although, she doesn't know it yet.

I never thought of it that way but I suppose I can agree with it. The key difference,IMO, is I want to change and be a better person. She never had that desire.

FF - Hurt people hurt people and your story seems to uphold that statement, as does my WS's situation. If you were so hurt by this former SO (same story as my WS), then why in the world would you do it to your BS? There must be much unresolved pain (you've mentioned some of it in your previous comments) for you in order to not be able to have empathy for your BS throughout the time of your A.

So the question is, what are you willing to do to foster R for you and your BS?

Ff4152. (((Platonic hugs)))

Do you know that I have been following your posts since shortly after I joined SI and I don't remember you ever mentioning the prior relationship you endured?

Perhaps this is something that you should explore further.

For me it explains a lot about your reasonings for not allowing your betrayed spouse to know she has been betrayed by you.

If I'm wrong, I am so sorry.

I'm impressed with your ability to take the 2×4's that you do here and still seek to heal however you can for your wife and dear son.

Strength

ff, it's great you are trying do better and work on self improvement. If you don't have one already, I suggest seeing an IC to help you work through this stuff.

Good luck

[This message edited by heartneedsglue at 6:00 AM, August 7th (Monday)]

heartneedsglue

I've been in IC since around January of this year.

4kids

Thank you for your kind thoughts I do appreciate it.

I suppose this first relationship laid the groundwork for my eventual betrayal of my wife. That, combined with the perfect storm of other crap going on in my life, gave me enough license to do what I did. Through all the shit that had gone on in my life up to that point, my wife was always by my side. Yet I somehow got it into my head that she really didn't care and that she wasn't showing me the affection I thought I deserved. So instead of talking about it with her, I decided to take my business elsewhere.

To be clear, there is really no excuse for what I did. I knew it was wrong. My wife played no role in what I did; except of course being an unwilling participant in this awful betrayal.

I'm impressed with your ability to take the 2×4's that you do here and still seek to heal however you can for your wife and dear son.

Some of the 2x4 have been brutal but I believe most were well meaning. They forced me to see what was in front of my face the whole time. In the beginning, I partially blamed my wife for this. I mean, I am this wonderful, awesome stud that absolutely deserves to have compliments and affection lavished upon me at all times.

The reality is, I was a selfish, entitled asshole who only really cared about getting my needs met. My wife was less affection because I had turned away from my marriage, not the other way around. I can clearly remember that one of the things that I wrote in my first post was how I was in love with two women; my wife and my exAP. I was reciting passages from the cheater's handbook word for word. The truth it, everything "I had" with my exAP was an illusion. I equate it to a chocolate frosted pile of gorilla dung. Looks very appealing on the outside, but that hides the disgusting mess which resides just below the surface. It was very sobering to realize that I almost threw everything away for a pile of gorilla shit.

iSurvived

So the question is, what are you willing to do to foster R for you and your BS?

Right now, my plan is:

1. Attending IC.

2. Really being "present" in the lives of my wife and child.

3. Reading and posting on SI.

4. A lot of self introspection.

That's my plan for right now. I still have a lot of work to do and I still struggle quite a bit but I feel as if I'm taking baby steps every day.

ff4152- Hypotheticals are really tough. I don't think anyone an really know what they would do unless faced with that direct situation.

I'd bet your W though the same as you do know before Dday.

It is a big, complex decision with many variables. This might sound strange, but I did not R for my W. I R for me.

I had to work through the emotional flooding, injustice, fairness, etc before I would able to look at my life logically.

Kids were a big part of that decision and I know I want to be as much in their lives as I can. I knew a D would not allow that. I also knew that financially I would take several steps back. I knew my lifestyle would suffer if I D.

All that is for me. My W has paid a heavy price and I am as sure as I can be she wouldn't cheat again.

However I realized that being gracious is a good feeling too. It allows me to see myself with pride, strength, courage . . all good things. I look in the mirror and can be happy with my decisions that I've made.

I know everyone talks about healing, but I'd hesitate to say I am healed. I am at peace with my life and where it is headed. I like myself again. I think that is the best anyone can ever hope for.

I know grace is viewed as something given to someone, but really it is much more internal. It is an attitude that approaches dogmatic aims.

Grace is easiest with humility, apologies and knowing the choices made hurt someone. Further we rob ourselves of our individuality and agency if we give another person enough power to ruin out lives. I know I will be just fine. I don't wish harm on anyone that wrongs me and makes restitution. I don't let anyone have that kind of power over me anymore. No one.

So I R'd for myself. I extend grace for myself. I don't let anyone every have that kind of power over my life again. JHMO. Quiet strength leads to grace.

Ive really been hesitating on whether or not I should answer to this post. Mainly because I have a different take on R being seen as a gift, at least in the early stages. And yes I'm a BS.

And I know In many ways R as a chance to redeem oneself is a "gift" of sorts. But in the early days of Dday, I wasn't offering a gift to my Wayward at all. I said I was and I thought I was and said all those words in many a post as though that were true.... but the beginning felt more like grasping my lifeline. R was the only lifeline I could see.

I was so hurt I didn't have a gift I could hand out anywhere. I was simply surviving and looking for ways to survive and hold up my children and family at the same time. It's the most vulnerable place in the world and I'm not sure that using the word "gift" which seems too noble a word is the most accurate description of what the chance to R really is. It's window of opportunity in a sea of despair. Once I wasn't so vulnerable, I'm not sure I'd have offered R.

So I think there was a later element where I began seeing my decision to R as a gift, But if I'm being really honest about that time... I'm just not sure that this fully explains it and it also would explain why you feel as though you may not have offered R, had the shoe been on the other foot. You were not the vulnerable party in the deception. I think vulnerability is a huge part of the initial aftermath. And being vulnerable with a disloyal partner is downright terrifying. A BS dealing with the aftermath of an A is stuck in a long unwanted process where you realize how vulnerable you were and just how little control you had over the ultimate outcome. And with a little luck you may still have some kind of influence left before your wayward is completely gone.... the aftermath of infidelity is so so scary and so so sad and such a terribly vulnerable place for us.

So are you lucky to have R in the table?... in a nutshell yes.

But the question of how we can offer this gift as a gift isn't so simple and in many cases may not be a gift but sheer despair, luck and timing. BS's are people who've been hurt, in the same way that you are likely a person who was hurt that went on to hurt and the decision to allow a wayward in our lives may be nothing more than a response to Injury. Because I've seen both situations where the WS uses that window of time to stay and help fix the issues and then the marriage, yet I've seen situations where the WS leaves all the destruction in his or her wake and the BS is left to pick up the pieces just the same. We are human and we also feel vulnerable and afraid and don't know what to do or where to turn and we often turn to what we know and what is familiar as a WS does in the aftermath.

In the past I would have said I gave the gift of R to to Wh. Now I just count us lucky that the window of opportunity to heal was used well and the outcome is that we are together, healing and able to continue the journey as a team.

[This message edited by refuz2bavictim at 9:46 AM, August 7th (Monday)]

ff, why don't you believe you could offer R if you were in her shoes? What would you have, instead of the possibility of R? What did you have, when it happened to you? Too much sympathy, too much understanding, too little self respect or self protection? Did you try to "fix" it?

Would you be capable of forgiveness, but not R? They are not at all the same. Or, if it happened now do you think you would be totally incapable of anything but hurt, and pain, and rage?

Would there be any sort of empathy in there, in all the betrayal, as the emotions swirled around? Any sort of "ohh, you messed up bad, didn't you, and the consequences are going to suck because now I hate you, and you could have had my love..." Any pity, for the poor, damaged choices made by this person you used to love?

Or would the wayward spouse simply stop being a real person to you, and simply become the source of your pain?

In your former relationship, during all the gaslighting and betrayal, did she become "only" a source of pain? Or did you empathize with her too much, see too much of her damage, stay too long and believe you could fix it? Are you a person who understands emotions, or are things mostly logical, facts in your brain?

Now, imagine your current relationship with you as the betrayed. Can you imagine being in a place of intense pain and loss and trauma...and still seeing the other person as a human being who messed up? Can you imagine feeling intense disappointment in them, because you know they are capable of better, but they chose worse?

The ability to feel all of those things more or less at the same time is what empathy is. It is not forgiveness. It is certainly not R.

Empathy is the ability to recognize, while swept up in your own emotions, that the other person is a human being, with feelings also. And nothing else. That's..pretty much it. You remain detached, not getting pulled into their emotions, simply recognizing that they exist.

It is not sympathy for those emotions, or obligation to soothe them, or feel that you need to stick around to fix them, it is not condescension. It is simply an acknowledgement that even a person who has done something truly awful and evil and colossally stupid...is a person. It means not forgetting that "person" when you are tempted to only see "cause of pain".

A Wayward spouse is, for some time at least, simply a source of pain. Almost an "object"of pain.

Empathy, and the ability to get to R happens when you look at your source of pain and also see them as a person, not just an attacker. Without taking on the burden of their emotions.

It is simply. "I see you. I see you are in pain. I am also in pain, so I am going to deal with that first. "

If, in past relationships, you swung too hard into the other person's emotions, taking on that responsibility, when it was actually theirs, you may never have built the necessary resilience to feel empathy properly.

Possibly when you are tugged by someone's neediness, you feel like you are dragged overboard with them, drowning, so you fight it with all your might. You may never have learned how to disentangle yourself from someone else's emotions. Every emotional encounter becomes a death match, a situation of absolutes. Ignoring other people's needs becomes a reflex, because acknowledging them is dangerous...you don't know how to save yourself if you need to, and you lack the ability to judge when something is normal or if it's time to get yourself out.

Empathy is, " I see you drowning. I am throwing you a liferaft. I am not getting in the the water with you."

Emotions are sticky, and they may try to drag you down.

Resilience is, "You are trying to trip me now that you caught the liferaft. I am letting go of the rope. I see you, but I am letting go of the rope".

This is not an obvious concept at all, but it is a learnable concept. The book "The Art of Non-violent Communication" offers concrete steps for exactly how to create and maintain the separaton between your emotions and other people's emotions.

Until you have that small, stable emotional distance, empathy can feel impossible, dangerous, or abstract.

And without empathy, I'm not sure anyone can really get to R.

For me anyway, this was all crucial, both in understanding my WS's total lack of empathy towards me, and my own, very clear understanding that I had the emotional strength to remain. I work with these concepts a lot so there was never my question that I would be able to attend to my own healing. But I had to recognize how totally enmeshed I had become with him and how much I had to distance myself and let him work through his own pain.

Keep in mind that if you had enmeshed relationships growing up, you may lack the ability to discern the difference between your own feelings and someone elses. What you are imagining in your head when you think "empathy", is probably not correct. It's a very subtle difference from both sympathy and indifference.

When you really get inside the emotion of empathy, the concept of R coming from a BS will start to make much more sense.

Iamthedragon

Since initially starting this thread, I have had time to think. It recently occurred to me that up until my marriage, almost every single significant relationship I've had has been involved with some level of betrayal (me being the betrayed). My first love, my parents, my first LTR and some close friends as well. I always tried to forgive, fix and move on. Time after time I learned that it was a stupid mistake on my part because I always ended up getting hurt once more. I mean, you have to be some kind of stupid to keep sticking your hand in the fire and not expecting to get burned.

Possibly when you are tugged by someone's neediness, you feel like you are dragged overboard with them, drowning, so you fight it with all your might. You may never have learned how to disentangle yourself from someone else's emotions. Every emotional encounter becomes a death match, a situation of absolutes. Ignoring other people's needs becomes a reflex, because acknowledging them is dangerous...you don't know how to save yourself if you need to, and you lack the ability to judge when something is normal or if it's time to get yourself out.

I think the opposite is actually the case. Based upon the experiences I described above, I would learned how to completely disengage from everyone else's feelings. The minute I got it into my head that I was vulnerable, if I had an inkling, real or imagined, that someone was about to hurt me, the walls would come up. That obviously carried into my marriage and gave me "license" to cheat.

During this period of introspection, it also occurred to me that forgiving someone who betrayed you isn't a sign of weakness on my part. The weakness lay with the person who took my trust and shat all over it. Like me who betrayed my wife, most of those who betrayed me aren't evil horrible people. Just broken people who did awful things but are good at the core.

In recognizing that, I do think I could offer R after all, provided she was truly remorseful and willing to do the work. Good people can do some really stupid, awful things to be sure. But that doesn't mean they aren't worth a second chance.

almost every single significant relationship I've had has been involved with some level of betrayal (me being the betrayed)

Sounds like you have found some part of your why?

So...interesting link- I just posted about this same thing in my life, except I have yet to be the one to betray another.

(I say yet, because without living with intent, or managing your own, aren't we all at risk for choosing selfishly?)

However, perhaps part of IC needs to be learning to identify people worthy of your trust, and those not?

I see some of your posts, but don't come here often. I don't know your whole story, but this one seemed to catch my eye.

To your original question: there is no way to know how you would respond until you are in the fire. I swore up and down my entire life that i would absolutely leave if ever cheated on.

Still here...but why?

WH is a good man who got very, very lost. Our history, our children, our life plans, he makes me laugh, he holds me when i cry, i understand his whys, I think he is worthy of a second chance.

Really, it boils down to that last sentence. I believe he is worthy of a second chance due to the goodwill he built up prior to his breakdown, and for all the work he has done since.

I wonder, is the real reason you don't tell your BS because you know how it feels, and can't bear to do that? Your story does intrigue so many of us. In the end, no judgment here, as I don't know you well enough.

hopeful

Certainly knowing how it feels to be betrayed and not wanting to visit that on my family is one of the main reasons I stay silent. That. and the precarious emotional state my wife and child are in right now are at the center of it as well. I feel that this is my mess, my fault and my sentence. I don't have the right to visit this awfulness on them any more than I already have. I hope to reach a sort of mental accommodation with this some time down the road. I've made a little progress but I have a ways to go yet. I hope I get to a point where I feel worthy of my wife again.

Yes, forgiveness takes us by surprise, doesn't it? Like many (including me) have said here, if asked prior to d-day if we'd stay, most of us say no way and those that know us would concur.

One of the things you are giving up FF (besides the obvious honesty others have pointed out many times) is the opportunity to grow together in a way that cannot happen with secrecy. There is an authenticity and vulnerability that working together after d-day brings (provided the WS is truly remorseful) that is unparalleled. Sharing this deep pain and working through the trauma with your perpetrator is unmatched in this life.

I'm not saying this to convince you of anything. Rather I'm realizing here and now that there is opportunity. Many months ago I would have told you something very different - that I only saw blackness and hopelessness. But the A has put so much in perspective. It provides the opportunity to live differently and more richly. It still hurts worse than anything I've ever known. At this point I'm hopeful that pain wanes more over time and is replaced with levels of mindfulness and joy that are heightened. All signs are pointing to it right now.

We all deserve to live our lives authentically. Part of this is moving through it together with a true partner, everything exposed, and efforts to help one another be better people. Good people do awful things. If they are good then this awfulness can make way for something even greater. I have been awestruck by my WS's growth and ability to recognize his brokenness. It gives me joy to see that he doesn't have to live in the awful pain of his painful childhood forever. He can overcome and in doing so, be a partner I deserve and he deserves quite frankly. At the same time, I can let go of my brokenness too and stop hiding from the truth.

None of this can happen without total honesty. That's the hard part and the part we continue to address - to confront our truths always and work through them rather than avoid them. But it is terrific to feel the awful weight lifting from our lives individually and together. And that is not the weight of the A. It is the weight of the conscious coma we've been living prior to the A. It's a false life anyway.

I feel that this is my mess, my fault and my sentence. I don't have the right to visit this awfulness on them any more than I already have. I hope to reach a sort of mental accommodation with this some time down the road. I've made a little progress but I have a ways to go yet. I hope I get to a point where I feel worthy of my wife again.

Hey ff. I haven't been reading much in the wayward forum lately.

I did just read the last page or so of this thread. One thought that sticks with me... is this:

Keep working. This is a long process. You are making progress and working it out. Stay in IC. Don't give up.

Good luck, my friend.