SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The message is getting very diluted here by genders and examples and generalizations.

I think it's safe to say, that after an affair everything is different. What was once acceptable can become unbearable. Both the WS and the BS do have personal responsibilities to heal, But for the marriage to move forward, the WS has retributions to make and remorse and empathy is the glue of that. Unless the WS can start to work on the injustices because they understand the damage they caused, the marriage is going to remain in a constant or at least an intermittent crisis regardless of the BS's healing efforts.

What I have found as my H and I have begun to put this thing back on the road it's a lot of trying to understand each other deeply. To get on the same team. The team both of you should have been on all along. A terrible and deep transgression was made, so the WS really has to get on the BS team first and stay there if they expect to reconcile and hope the BS just wants to stay on the team with them. Speaking love languages, helping through triggers, showing all the actions of love, understanding where their deepest wounds are and being sensitive to those. Many behaviors or patterns of the relationship that were acceptable before will become unacceptable. The BS needs to see the WS firing on all cylinders because how else will the trust be restored?

It does take two people though. I can bring all the creativity in the world to my H's love language (which in this case would be physical), but he also has to decide at some point he's on the team too. He has to decide to work on his thought patterns to try and combat some of the triggers and heal some of the wounds. Not for me, or even for the sake of our marriage - but for HIM. (By the way that was a general statement, I see my husband has been doing this very thing)

And, because it's for him it has to be regardless of my actions - though if my actions do not line up with his expectations then he may decide D is the option. D is always an option. But if you R, then the person who triggers you most stays in your house and likely in your bed. So, if they are doing the work and you want that life more than you don't, then unfortunately it is part of the unfairness of the situation - you have to find ways out of your own mental hurdles to stay. The time frame for that? I don't know, so we can't rush them through and say "get over your deepest wound it's a waste of your time"

Unfortunately, I think why you hear the refrain you do from both BW's and BH's on this site is not because they haven't worked on their healing but because the WS hasn't stepped up to do their part in creating the environment. I hear the BW's venting more about empathy and communication. That is their primary need. But, what I don't think some people are hearing on these BH's threads is that is their same need in order to start reconciliation. They want the WW to empathize with their deepest wound, and communicate with them through their actions of desire. When that doesn't happen, and the BH doesn't feel he wants to leave, it gets stuck in this little limbo place....and you see it happening to the BW's the same way. The difference is many of the BW's feel like they can express it so you hear the venting more of a fight. A BH can't express it so easily because if they say "show me desire" they think they are getting a pity romp and it ruins it.

It's kind of like when I have said things in the past to my husband like "I wish you would send me flowers once in a while, or can we try and work on our romance" and he would get a card or send flowers, or take me on a date and tell me I am pretty....and gosh that was usually the end of that for a while. But, by golly if I ever needed anything else he was johnny-on-the-spot. It's not his natural language to show love with the flowery things, and to him that's like relating to an alien. So, I have to watch for other acts of love as well, ones where it's being communicated even if I am not receiving it in the fashion I wish to.

I think the same thing happens with women, we forget (or maybe never realize to begin with) how tender men are especially surrounding sex and their wife. It's the primary way many of them feel love, and by saying things that degrade that because we as women think they are just being perverted - well that misses the boat I think. It's honestly a tender thing for them, it's just hard to understand that when they are spouting off on this site about facials, and anal sex. I don't think my H really wants those things specifically, but what he does want to know is I desire him above all others, that he really turns me on and satisfies me like no one else does or could. That's what an affair ruins for most men, and that's why we hear it from them this way.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:50 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)]

^^^ well put

I totally agree with hikingout. As a WW I have a unique mission. I need to make my BH feel like a sex God and show him that I love and desire,him more than anyone else. Like if he gives me that look, then those panties can’t drop fast enough because we can’t wait to ravish each other. And even more than that, I need to be super proactive about it and not wait for that look, although getting it is fun, but be the one to give him that look. It has to be real and it can’t be out of a sense of duty or responsibility. I want my BH and he has to know that I want him. And I should offer to do everything I did with my AP if I can. I think a BH really needs this.

I don’t know if this is true for most men, but my BH has told me that before my A, us being married was a statement in some way that he’s special. Like he’d think that this is my wife and she chose me over everyone else and she thinks I’m better, kinder, hotter, sexier, everything. But after my A, the feeling went away because I chose someone else. So then he must not be better, sexier, or hotter. That’s the feeling I think a WW needs to address. And if a BH is looking for intimacy and the WW turns him down, the message he gets is that he’s not better, sexier, or hotter. She didn’t turn HIM down, but she turned me down.

And I also think the WW needs to initiate sex often. Like it’s got to be almost all the time that she’s the one initiating. Obviously it won’t happen every night because life, but the important thing is that she’s the one pushing for it. But it has be authentic. Maybe there’s room for fake it until you make it, I don’t know, but if you’re feelings aren’t there then maybe R isn’t right for you.

Ummm...about specific sex acts that some women might find degrading, I did one of those with my AP. I offered to do that with my BH and it was a sincere offer. I don’t want to get into a debate about a BH demanding those things because that’s a whole separate dynamic. But the BH shouldn’t have to demand anything. And if he does and the WW won’t agree to it because of any psychological reason then there’s a lot more going on than just the sex part. Hopefully the BH will understand that and they’ll work together to address that. But if a WW is emotionally ready for it, she should offer to do that. We didn’t go through HB, quite the opposite actually, but if you do go through it then take advantage.

I think D is a legitimate option if the BH is not getting what he needs in the sex department. If my A and subsequent work have taught me anything it’s that we are each free to make our own choices and we are also responsible for understanding and accepting the consequences of those choices. The fact that we’re talking about sex shouldn’t change that.

MrsWalloped, you took the most expeditious route to addressing your husband's insecurities, safeguarding his psyche, and rescuing your marriage. Better than countless hours of paid IC. Much respect, Ma'am.

Hiking, that is all part of a discussion. It flows. It's not static.

I think everyone has agreed that the CP needs to step up their game. And, I think it's pretty well understood that the sexual aspect is very important to the BH. The issue in this thread is when the CW does everything for R except that one sexual thing (I assume since that's the complaint here). And, btw, sex is not a love language. Physical touch is, but that means holding hands, giving hugs, giving massages, that sort of thing.

A sex is very damaging to everyone. I need to know that I am desired by my fCH. I don't want to be stuck with a guy who is pining for the OW for any reason. Maybe the difference is that a man having sex with a woman does not necessarily show that that woman is special to him. So, I can't know that my fCH wants just me after an A just because he has sex with me. He could just be having sex with me because I'm available. It's the other things he does that show me he really wants to be with me.

Of course, that's a generalization. Kind of can't avoid them in these types of discussions. Women can and do have sex without feeling any specialness toward the other party. It's just not as common.

I don't see the responses toward BHs and BWs being any different. Your partner cheated. S/he is not giving you that one thing that you need to heal. What are you, the BP, going to do about it?

You can't make another person give you what you want. That's where the healing yourself comes in. You need to find a way to be ok regardless of what the other person does. That takes time.

It's said over and over that it's ok if the A is a dealbreaker for whatever reason. If that reason is because you can't get over the fact that your CP had sex with another or had a certain kind of sex with another that they won't do with you, that's ok. It's also ok if you just can't get over the fact that your CP told another that he loved her.

From dday2, my fCH did everything for R. There wasn't anything I was lacking. I still spent years struggling with it, not fully committed to R. I was there because of my kids and my lifestyle, not because I loved my fCH. For at least 2 years, I hated him. I was disgusted by him.

I fucked my fCH during this, but it didn't mean anything to me. I wanted that physical feeling, that big O. He ruined the specialness of it by fucking someone else while we were supposed to be exclusive. That is universal, imo.

There is one sex act that I don't know if I could get over if he had done it with the OW. Thing is, he could have and is still lying to me about that because he knows how it would destroy us. I have to accept that I will never know for sure. Then, I have to decide what to do about that.

And, that's exactly what BHs need to do wrt the A sex. That's no different than telling a BW that she has to accept that her CH told the OW that he loved her, if that's what's most important to her, and decide what to do about it?

How is telling a BH that he needs to find a way to overcome the A sex any different than telling a BW that she needs to overcome the A ILY? And, by overcome, I don't mean get over. I mean find a way to move on from it so you can be ok.

Sorry thread jack coming.

have the abbreviations changed?

If not what CH, CP etc?

Cheating husband/partner? I guess I'm just one who likes to stick to one way to describe wayward...Lol

Ok T/J over...

Mrs.walloped, an A destroys that specialness regardless of the reason, whether it's because of the sex, or the ILYs, or whatever. There is a specialness to being the one chosen over all others. Obviously, that is destroyed when the CP goes off with someone else.

And, yes, the CP needs to step up and give the BP everything he needs to get that specialness back, if it can ever really come back.

What bothers me about these discussions is when it's presented as if the A sex is so much more damaging to the BH than any other part of the A could possibly be to the BW. That may not be the intention of posts like this, but that's the sentiment I get sometimes.

It's all devastating. Each BP gets to decide what part is most devastating for them. I'm sorry if BHs have felt their sex concerns are not taken seriously. I haven't been on this site for years until recently, so I may have missed a lot.

Whether the BP feels like sexual plan b or love plan b, he has to decide what to do about that.

Cocoplus5, I agree with that. My husband wasn’t happy about the sex, at all, but for him the deception was the “worst thing,” followed by the fact that OM was my ex and so therefore there was no getting around the obvious that he was “plan A” and had been our entire marriage (because we wouldn’t have ever HAD a marriage had the events leading to the A happened two years prior). My husband gets to decide what is the worst part of my betrayal for himself and it’s just as valid even if he doesn’t fall in lockstep with most other men who have been cheated on as far as what is considered “worst.”

Hi cocoplus5nuts,

Mrs.walloped, an A destroys that specialness regardless of the reason, whether it's because of the sex, or the ILYs, or whatever. There is a specialness to being the one chosen over all others. Obviously, that is destroyed when the CP goes off with someone else.

I agree and I don’t think I was saying anything about sex being more important or more damaging than the ILYs. This thread was specifically about sex, so that’s all I talked about. I hope that clears things up.

I agree that whatever the WS does has to be authentic. As a BS I certainly don't want my partner to be forcing themselves to have sex with me, for the act to be done grudgingly. Of course if that is the case then there will be consequences, I certainly wouldn't be in the relationship for much longer.

With regards to the type of sex, I for one think that there has to be a variety and I don't simply mean the specific acts. I'm female and yes I want the whole meaningful intimate love making but there are also times when I want just want down and dirty hard sex. It may be selfish but at this point in time it's my WH's 'responsibility' to meet these needs.

I remember reading a quote about sex making about 20% of a good relationship and 80% of a bad one. After an affair it's only natural for sex to be one of the main focuses but as the relationship heals then the it should stop being so 'stressful'.

The boat that some people seem to be missing is how the timing of events changes the nature of the situation. Sure, people have sexual partners prior to marriage. It's either discussed or understood, and a marriage is undergone with the understanding that both people have pasts and won'ts.

Infidelity changes that equation. So when my XWW went out and had an affair, the same set of unique circumstances that I accepted prior to the marriage was no longer acceptable to me. That's why we get into the discussion of specific sex acts, and how common it is that women are often someone very different with APs than they are with us. It's no different than the change in the level of accountability and transparency before and after an affair. BSs, men and women, get to decide what their reconciliation looks like. APs get to decide if that is acceptable for them. Either party can choose to bow out at any time. No one is forced to stay in any situation that isn't working for them.

So as far as the subject of this thread goes, I decide what makes me feel like plan-A. If someone isn't getting there (and mind you, that might look really different for a WW than it does for a new partner) then hit the bricks.

T/J - triggering on over-generalizations…

I need to ... show him that I love and desire,him more than anyone else.

I'm very uncomfortable with the comparative 'more than anyone else.' If my W said that to me, I'd wonder if she'd leave me if someone better than me came a long.

What I want to sense from my W is that she loves me, is in love with me, and will be monogamous with me. I want to sense that I'm the only one she with whom she is willing to share her life. I know there are lots of potential partners out there for her, but I want her to ignore those possibilities.

It's not that I want to feel more desired than anyone else. I want to be the only one.

As for being a sex god, I just can't see myself as significantly better than average, because the odds are, I'm average. I just want to be the only one with whom my W desires to have sex.

I've been privy to lots of affairs (as told by OM to me), not a SINGLE ONE of them has had anything at all to do with love.

You draw conclusions from that that are not justified, in part because of sample size, in part because your informants' truth-telling was never tested.

Also, there's plenty of evidence here that at least fantasies of love play a part in a lot of As, and your posts seem to ignore that fact. I know a face-to-face conversation has more weight than a post on a 'net forum ... but there may be more truth in the anonymous 'net forum.

I never told anybody about my real interest in W2b while I was dating her. I didn't do much bragging or talking about her, but I denied that our relationship was serious in any way. That was when I felt alive while with her and dead while apart. So I take at face value what people say about their relationships, but I doubt they tell the whole truth.

What did I say that was sexist? I try to avoid that, but the genders are different, no matter how much we want them to be the same.

Except WRT who does what in giving birth, I can't think of anything said by or about men in these threads that doesn't apply at least to some women. And yet we continue to see threads in which men do special pleading. That's sexist.

Further, except for things related to having children, every difference discussed could be a result of mutable cultural forces, not inherent differences in the culture. 100 years from now, if we're still around, we might have found no psychological differences between genders exist.

At this point, every study I've seen that purports to show gender differences (though I haven't seen many) fails to take cultural factors out of the equation.

End T/J

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:17 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)]

***Posting as a member***

I think the one thing that happens in cases of both genders is that we see the WS state in desperation, " I will do anything if you agree to stay with me."

You see the problem with this is that the BS wants to believe so badly that they take it at face value. They fully expect that anything means anything. If that is wild crazy hanging from the chandeliers sex then so be it. If it is telling you unprompted how beautiful you are every so often then so be it. Let's be honest most WS aren't playing with a full emotional deck, with healthy coping skills in the first place. A lot are fresh off a selfish place where they learned that manipulation works for them. It might be genuine, but it is a statement made of fear. Fear of suffering the consequences of their choices.

Where this falls apart is where the WS words don't match their actions. Suddenly refusals happen. So the BS is left with the understanding that they were lied to, yet again. Any trust that existed or was built is now gone.

We always say that words are worthless and if they don't match actions they are untrue. That is why. The value of truth is greatly diminished in the wayward mind. This character deficit doesn't go away overnight.

That is the thing that really gets at a lot of BS. Anything suddenly becomes except x, y or z. Confusing as all get out. Sex is no exception. While this bothers a lot of BS the thing is that these can be the WS learning boundaries. Boundaries are needed in R. BS get to have them too, but to a BS we likely had them all along. These do change over time. Maybe today x,y, and z are outside of their boundaries. Tomorrow? Well I think anything is fair game when negotiating marriage 2.0.

In my scenario I did not have to compete with anything special in the physical sense. It was pathetic to the point of being a basis for a very adult comedy. I made my peace with it a lot faster than anything else. The fact that she didn't or couldn't talk to me about how she was feeling left me feeling used, and taken for granted. Part of that was I seemed to be a domestic resource and a wallet. No loving actions at all that included "duty" sex. Which you should know is worse than none at all for most guys. We feel the insincerity and yes it does hurt in ways that many BWs can't relate to.

Going back to DF earlier post (Hi DF) I have to agree with her sentiment.

We choose our partner as a whole. We don't get to pick what we like and don't about them. They are a package deal. Full disclosure, my W is not the best sex I ever had. Probably not even close to the top spot. She is downright prudish at times. She had/has other qualities that I value. She was kind to animals and small children. She is organized (I am not). She wants the same things I want out of life now, tomorrow and in old age. She is a terrific mother. She is good with money. She is a solid worker who earns good money at what she does. She is the not sex goddess, but as I get older that matters much less to me. It is about building a life with someone. Not one aspect of our lives together is not influenced by other parts too. If we struggle in one area it is in the bedroom. We discuss that more than anything lately.

I will say that we tend to focus on the problems and whatever need is not being met the most. If all of my other needs are met except sex then that becomes 90% of my focus. If I am hungry food is my priority. I've had a dead bedroom before. It hurt emotionally beyond anything I can put into words. Well beyond actually. It was demoralizing and hurtful to be continually turned down. I tried to be intimate in other ways, but honestly my heart was not in them and it showed. I was too hurt to communicate effectively with my W. Hurt clouds your feelings in ways that nothing else can. Further it taught me that any vulnerability would lead to more pain. Any physical intimacy short of sex also carried the sting of possible rejection. I mean I can cuddle my dog. I can hug my children. The only person I can have a sexual relationship is my wife if I want to live a life of integrity that is in line with my values. If that isn't present and/or that is not fulfilling to me then that becomes 90% of my issues in my M. We communicate about it now though. She tries to meet me half way.

My W tried to argue with me that it was not be all end all of our relationship too. I had to have a lot of conversations from a male perspective before she got it. It was the very part she damaged with her physical part of her A (despite that being comically pathetic) and it needed to be healed if we were to be successful long term. For some that might mean more frequency. It might mean exploring new things together (which speaks to the pain that BH feel when certain acts are denied to them, but given to an AP). It might just mean having sex with the lights on while looking each other in the eyes (Intimacy).

There needs to be very open and unfiltered conversations to facilitate any healing activity. You can ask and they can comply, but that leads to resentment. Sometimes that is a milestone you have to reach for awhile, but it can't be stuck there. All needs should be discussed and explained why it is important. That is just rebuilding a new M where both of your needs are met. I get to define my needs in my M. Any of you get the same right. You might not get 100%, but again that isn't healthy either. The only exceptions for my W and I are that emotional and physical intimacy of a certain level are only met by each other.

Most H have trouble extending emotional vulnerability. It is not comfortable and OMG it is beyond terrifying at times. Putting yourself into a vulnerable place and then being rejected, in any way, makes it less likely they will do that again any time soon. Nobody likes to take actions that cause them pain. No one.

Both men and women are fragile, but in different ways. When we generalize and/or use our own views as a proxy for understanding someone else's need in Limbo/R/D. . .well that is where advice conducive to healing stops.

sisoon, I’m sorry I triggered you. I didn’t mean to.

It's not that I want to feel more desired than anyone else. I want to be the only one.

But you’re not the only one anymore. There was another.

Of course my BH and every other BS wants to be the only one once they get married. But I brought someone else in to our relationship. My BH is no longer the only one. And it’s that specific reality and difficulty that I was addressing.

[This message edited by MrsWalloped at 11:22 AM, March 19th (Tuesday)]

But you’re not the only one anymore. There was another.

I don't agree.

Yes WH had four others while we were married but he didn't love them, they weren't special, they were just willing to spread their legs or open their mouths. They were all a means to an end. He said what he did to get to the finish line, to get his ego kibbles, to get laid. He wasn't comparing them to me. I wasn't plan A or B. I wasn't in the equation at all. His A's weren't about ME. They were all about him and his selfishness.

So creating a new foundation to build a new and hopefully better marriage isn't going to be based on that foundation being everything he did with them. I want US to go forward as an authentic couple, doing what WE want to do together. To do that requires calm, consistent, honest communication between us. Demands and doing things because one feels obligated isn't authentic.

I had to have a lot of conversations from a male perspective before she got it.

You post that right after I argue there may be no psychological differences between men and women?

It's not that I want to feel more desired than anyone else. I want to be the only one.

But you’re not the only one anymore. There was another.

'Was' is the important word here. Before the A and since d-day, no one else, and I'm betting there will be no one else in the future.

These triggers were intellectual. Actually, the took me away from thinking about an IRL problem that I don't want to deal with, so I welcomed the triggers.

LivingWithPain, have you worked through all your pain yet by going to therapy, being vulnerable with your wife, ect and forgiving your wife for her actions ?

Yes I've been going to IC and finished EMDR therapy some months ago and it was a huge help.

As far as being vulnerable... no. She hasn't earned that back yet. But we are honest with each other now... brutally so.

Forgiveness? Eventually I will.

How long ago was Dday for you?

Going on 2-1/2 years ago I think.

You post that right after I argue there may be no psychological differences between men and women?

You might be able to argue that the psychological differences are due to social structures and expectations (I would still disagree with you as there are specific reasons why men and women are different psychologically, and we see examples of it even in a single generation) but it's preposterous to say that there are no differences. Men and women are different psychologically because we have different needs physically.

We can't take cultural factors out of the equation. Your advice, while well meaning, is usually so profoundly abstract that it isn't helpful. None of us are the Dalai Lama. We can't remove emotion from the equation, because our emotions have kept us alive for millions of years. We have to respect the way we feel, sort out what about those emotions isn't helpful, and try do better. We're talking about raw emotion caused by betrayal (step 1) and you are talking about intellectualizing the discord that we feel (step 9,184).

You constantly bring up the drama triangle, which is great, but 95% of the people here who have chosen partners that have cheated on them aren't in a place intellectually or emotionally that they can add that to their lexicon.

Tell you what, I will one-up you. How about if you practice total non-attachment to anything. Buddha explored that, and I think that achieving enlightenment would really help you in your life. I'll wait.

People need help where they are, not where they might hope to be someday.

Cocoplusnuts,

I think that there is a lot you and I agree on. In many ways we are saying the same things in a different way I believe.

I don't see the responses toward BHs and BWs being any different. Your partner cheated. S/he is not giving you that one thing that you need to heal. What are you, the BP, going to do about it?

Me either. I think it's the same. In fact, the thing my husband is upset about is the ILY's and less the sex. Believe it or not.

I also realize physical is the love language, not sex. But, a lot of that for men is just part of the sex. My husband loves to sit close on the couch so he can touch my legs. But, that is kind of...pre-foreplay? In many ways physical touch is often sexual or romantic and does feed into how you relate in the bedroom.

But, pick up one relationship book that doesn't describe that sex translates to love to most men (in context of a long term relationship) - it's difficult to find. There is a large consensus in the expert community.

How is telling a BH that he needs to find a way to overcome the A sex any different than telling a BW that she needs to overcome the A ILY? And, by overcome, I don't mean get over. I mean find a way to move on from it so you can be ok.

I am not sure that you read my post closely. It's not. I agree - they have to find ways to get past it if they want to R. We all agree, D is always an option. I said that. But, I think what is missing is this:

Unfortunately, I think why you hear the refrain you do from both BW's and BH's on this site is not because they haven't worked on their healing but because the WS hasn't stepped up to do their part in creating the environment.

Unless the WS can start to work on the injustices because they understand the damage they caused, the marriage is going to remain in a constant or at least an intermittent crisis regardless of the BS's healing efforts.

I think what we are really saying is, yes a BS is responsible for healing themselves. But, to get to R that takes both people. What I read from the men is the same from the women here...when that doesn't happen it delays R. Where it may be different is just what they are expecting to see to feel like they are moving to R or their R is going successfully.

So, in essence I believe we very much agree. My post was not a rebuttal of yours. It's just we were all getting in a little bit of territory where it became more about genders, my post was this isn't about genders - it's really the same thing - just different wounds that they are trying to heal. And, from those differences come different challenges.

Yes WH had four others while we were married but he didn't love them, they weren't special, they were just willing to spread their legs or open their mouths. They were all a means to an end. He said what he did to get to the finish line, to get his ego kibbles, to get laid. He wasn't comparing them to me. I wasn't plan A or B. I wasn't in the equation at all. His A's weren't about ME. They were all about him and his selfishness.

Yes, this is the typical male A (and some females too), just the old "more/cake eater", say whatever it takes to get laid routine. I've seen this one dozens of times IRL.

But that's not the typical female A. The typical female A isn't a "get your rocks off" thing, it's a "replace your H" thing. And if your H offered more to the OW and not to you, I think you'd feel the same, particularly if the "something more" was something you really wanted.

Let me try one more, perhaps painful, analogy here that might make it more relatable and less silly. Let's say you always wanted children but your H did not. Because of that, you've always taken birth control and your H very rarely/never "lets go" inside of you.

Now this WH goes out, gets an AP, and low and behold, gets her pregnant. See, with the AP, having an orgasm inside of her was fine. He actually enjoyed it and talked about doing it with her. And then, most importantly, he actually DID do it with all the repercussions of that action coming home to roost when the OW announces "I'm pregnant". Well now, that's quite a blow right, because now it's not "he doesn't want children" it's "he doesn't want MY children". Very different statement and far more painful, at least to me, than the first (which may also be very painful, depending on how much you want children, in fact, it may have been a HUGE compromise for you to marry this man knowing that was off the table.. But it's not off the table for him, only off the table for YOU).

Now, I realize, not all women want children and not all men want to be a family of 2, but, still, this is perhaps the only thing I can compare this issue to because, much like sex, if I (as the WH) say "no kids" well.. No kids. Your never going to have them with me, but I can sure tell you about my kid with the AP, how he's doing, how it was for me to stand in the maternity ward, and what it's like to have a son/daughter. Experiences you'll never have as long as you stay with me, or perhaps, experiences you'll just never have at all (depending on your age) because of my refusal to do it with you.

Now replace children with "anal sex" or "BJs" or "enthusiasm" or anything else that we talk about as being part of the "sexual plan A" and you'll have a pretty good idea exactly how I feel. I sacrificed something I really wanted to be in this relationship, something that was/is extremely important to me. No f**king way I'm sacrificing that anymore, not after what she did, and not after she "knocked up" some other guy on the 3rd "date" intentionally and without the slightest tinge of the old "I don't want kids" coming out to rear it's ugly head.

And I'd tell a woman in the hypothetical situation I build the same thing I'd tell a man. Tell him to get busy painting the nursery because either he's going to put a baby in you or someone else is. But that "desire" isn't going to go unfulfilled anymore, it was a sacrifice that you didn't have to make for the marriage (obviously, because the AP didn't have to and they always offer a LOT less than the marriage, sometimes laughably so) and one that you SHOULD NOT make anymore.