SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ask yourselves why you've never cheated.

Because my character flaws do not include being a RiverChickens fan...😁

Exactly! I have never cheated on anyone because just the thought disgusted me. I could not fathom having sex with one person and then coming home to another and possibly having sex with him. I don't think I'd even be able to lay next to my H in bed after doing something like that.

Yeah. My RA wasn't "traditional", happened on DDay in what was essentially a mental breakdown and I can't describe the loathing I felt for myself in the car on the way home. The pure horror of it. I had just found out that my WH had slept with many women, so I didn't give much of a fuck that I had "done him wrong", but I was so grossed out and horrified by the fact that I was driving home and was going to be in the same house with my husband after having had sex with someone else. I honestly do not know how he did it all that time. There was no one more deserving of his wife cheating that day and yet I was profoundly messed up about walking around like a big nasty lie for the two weeks before I told him about it. I literally could not have lived with myself had I cheated like he did. I just could not have done it.

Deserved to cheat? Absolutely not. While it's pretty easy to do a little mental judo and wind up at "RIO you deserve to cheat", I most certainly do NOT feel that way about my WW. Again, to the earlier analogy, it's not about her being pushed into something or deserving something, it's about me not practicing the standard of care that I should have for something that's important to me (my M).

Why don't you ask her?

Your WW is not a cipher. I could tell you exactly why my ex did what she did. Because I was married to her, and know her personality. Which had 100% to do with what she did. My actions effectively meant nothing.

I do not believe you are a special snowflake. But if you truly want a better connection with your WW, you should probably concentrate on her particulars. Most every post you make has the tone of "Here's how things REALLY are" which are based on ideas you have formulated. You seem like a smart guy, read and think a lot, but the particulars of your WW matter way more than all of that. She is the only person in the world you are married to. That is where your focus needs to be.

A point I was trying to make earlier, is that if you need to "do better", why doesn't your WW. Why isn't your WW thinking "I need to do better to keep RideItOut around?"

Affairs come from disengagement. Not from the WS being pissed off at the BS. You read the manosphere, yet your approach here is oh so beta. A man of value is not going to care what he said yesterday. Engage your WW today. Ping her emotions. That is what they want. That is why so many women get involved with these unstable guys. Emotional pings. There is much BS in the manosphere, but this you could stand to listen to.

I'm divorced, but one thing I appreciate about my GF is that she fears losing me. The ex did not have this fear. It doesn't guarantee a future, but that is the position you want to be in. Dread game? You want your WW to fear losing you. Instead of taking this beta, "I can perform better" approach.

Dread game?

Your right. I know, intellectually, your right. I'm just not going to do it. Yes, it's "beta as f**k" and it may not work, but I'm not going to play the game anymore with her. I'm going to do my best, she's gonna do her best, and if it's not good enough, we're going to get a D. Simple as that. I know I could use "dread game" or some of the tricks I learned years ago to get her to perform better and be a "better wife" in my eyes. F**k that. I'm not gonna do it. I will not spend the rest of my life using psychological tricks to get my wife to do what I want. Foremost, I care about her too much to do it, it's manipulative, and it puts the other person into a power down position forever. But, and this is gonna sound really bad, but.. Hey, we're all friends here. If I'm going to stoop to that level again, well, I'm going to enjoy the things that being on that "level" bring. NSA sex with lots of different partners, the freedom of being single, and the feeling of "I can get this whenever I want" by playing the "game" well. Yes, it would be an "empty victory" I suppose, but, darn it, just like finding happiness in the bottom of a bottle of booze; well, sometimes it's better to have that happiness than none at all, right?

I'm divorced, but one thing I appreciate about my GF is that she fears losing me. The ex did not have this fear.

I'd also add.. You're not playing fair! ;) It's much, much easier to do this dating than it is in a marriage. Sure, I can walk out, but not without serious repercussions. My W knows that. So, even if I were to venture back to the dark side and play up the game, it wouldn't be as effective as it is dating. It's not so easy to "next" a wife, they know it, we know it, and because of that, it's harder to instill the scarcity mentality that's a requirement for good game.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 3:26 PM, June 21st (Friday)]

This manosphere talk is so interesting. Where's the popcorn eating gif?

Boundaries should be maintained if you’re serious about fidelity. The other person in my scenario is a predator - NO DOUBT. That said, my wife’s allegiance and respect should have put her family, and not a rush of dopamine, first.

This manosphere talk is so interesting. Where's the popcorn eating gif?

I'm assuming your being sarcastic. But, before you are so quick to dismiss, imagine if this thread was talking about makeup and skimpy clothes and I (a man) drop in to say "You girls are so silly, you know guys really don't fall for that stuff, right". Well, to me, that's kind of what you just sounded like. I can "not want" a mini-skirt and dramatic makeup to work on me all I want, and certainly, I can control my actions, but, to say I don't notice and it doesn't spark sexual interest would be a bold faced lie. That's what the manosphere is, in essence, for men. It's "painting their face" to make themselves appear more attractive to women than they actually are. It's "man makeup" if you will. It's just painting a picture with words rather than with a brush.

But, before you dismiss that as stupid, how many WW's have come here after cheating for what? You got it, those words. The picture those words paint. Now, I fully agree, it's transparent and easy to see through for many, perhaps most women. And there are women actively put off by it. Again, same as makeup. But, a lot of people live in a bubble, how many times have you seen a guy say "wow, she looks so good without makeup" and the girls standing around look at him like "wow, you are an idiot, she's wearing about a lb of spackle on her face and no, guess what, eyelids aren't actually black you moron". Same way I feel when I used to hear a girl say "Wow, he seems so nice". Ugh, yeah, because he's spitting lines at you that you're buying hook/line/sinker. Fine if you want to buy those lines and are looking for a ONS. Not so fine if your married and "falling for" someone who's using psychological manipulation techniques on you to get what they want.

The point is the lines won’t work on the emotionally healthy.

I'm assuming your being sarcastic

No, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I am really appreciating the exchange between you two. You seem to be able to do it without being insulting or demeaning toward women.

BTW, I'd be right with that guy saying talking about makeup and skimpy clothes is silly. I can get on my soapbox about how it is not women's jobs to look good for men. Makeup is a scam. Wear whatever the fuck you want. Go naked. Idc A lot of stuff that women get sucked into believing about themselves is just plain stupid.

T/J so maybe don't answer, but I have no idea what is meant by dread game. Explain?

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 7:38 PM, June 21st (Friday)]

Well, I did see it. Plenty across the spectrum, from young and foolish to older. LCDRLost’s xWW is a nice example. Saw it with my peers, and as the CO or OIC of 4 commands, counseling sailors.

Saw this story recently in the Washington Post, which was heartbreaking to read. About a D Day survivor.

My Grandfather’s Secret D-Day Journal

The letters — a sailor missing his wife, wondering whether he’ll ever see his unborn child — are heart-wrenching enough on their own. But there was another layer to my grandparents’ story: During the war, my grandmother got pregnant again, this time by another man. She would give birth to a daughter. My grandfather returned to his wife after the war; the daughter would be raised by my grandmother’s mother, in New Hampshire. My father and his brother — my uncle Dick — would grow up knowing this girl as their grandmother’s youngest daughter, not their half sister. As my grandfather told my dad years later, “There was never a question. That’s just how you handled it.”

Well, I did see it.

I didn't say it doesn't happen. I know it does. I've heard the stories from my H.

I said the military got the reason wrong. It's not the M that's vulnerable. It's the people in the M. I guess you can say the people make the M vulnerable, but that still goes back to the individual. Separation just makes cheating easier to do, logistically.

Personally, I think the military needs to do a lot more to actually support families. I also think they need to make it safe for ADMs to seek help with deployment and combat stress. There is still a lot of fear that voicing those issues will affect careers. That's another topic, though.

T/J so maybe don't answer, but I have no idea what is meant by dread game. Explain?

Sorry, totally missed this question. And I think it's relevant to explain it because, like it or not (and, BTW, lots of people disagree with me), "dread game" is basically best described as "the 180". Dread game is instilling a sense of fear (fear of loss) into your partner by doing things to show them that you are more important than they are. Classic dread game is simple, don't answer the phone when someone calls. Or answer and tell them, with no explanation "Sorry, I already have plans tonight" (even when you don't) to get them to up the ante in the relationship (Can I get you to cancel those plans if I do XYZ? Something I've actually heard a few times using this technique). It's a way to put the other person off kilter, show them "who's more important here" and make them "work for the relationship". There are lots of ways to do it, openly talking to other women in front of your date, being aloof, being late for things and leaving early because "you have something else you need to get done tonight". A lot of "mystery" and "misdirection" is the paramount to it. I'd be talking to a girl, and a friend would come over (guy) and I'd say stuff like "I've got to go, someone just go here" and abruptly end the conversation. Just let it hang out there. Was it another girl who just got there? No, it wasn't, but no reason to clarify, let her think it was and she need to "do better" to keep me.

If you read any "game" or "pick up" stuff, there are really 2 sides to it, the "light side" and "dark side". Light side stuff is healthy, IMHO, stuff like dressing better, how to start a conversation, working out, etc. Dark side stuff are things like dread game, spinning plates (dating multiple girls at once), location shifting, etc. The problem is, on a lot of people, the "dark side" stuff works a lot better/faster. So people do it because it's easier; lot faster to psychologically manipulate someone than spend 2 years in the gym getting a great body. And probably more effective to boot.

People will argue and say that the 180 isn't "dread game". Perhaps they are right. But that was the advice I got, in spades, after d-day (and the advice often given to new posters). And I knew it would work. But I also knew I wasn't going to do it, I knew I wanted to stay married, still loved my wife, and wanted to fix it. And the 180 might have done all those things but not without lying and using dread to get what I wanted. I've been there, done that. I'm done with it.

Now, before you label me a monster for doing this in my youth, I will say, I was grossly misinformed about the nature of male/female relationships. I was raised that "women want sex just as much as men" which, since there's only one man who I really know (me), if that is/were true, what's the harm in lying to get laid? None. I wouldn't have cared one bit if someone lied to me to get laid, in fact, I probably would have been flattered. But, if that's not true, man, did I hurt a lot of people with this manosphere stuff. I was "stealing" with words because the exchange wasn't equal. And like all things, what goes around.. Yup, same thing the AP did with my W... Words for sex; which, would be OK if the words had some meaning, but, much like my words when "spitting game" those words meant nothing, just the fastest way to get the panties off.

I'm going to say that the 180 and dead game are not the same. Some of the actions might appear the same on the surface, but they have completely opposite intentions, if I'm understanding correctly.

The 180 is not about manipulating the other person. It is about protecting and caring for yourself. If someone is hurting you, it's because you are allowing it. (Not victim blaming here. I've been through the explanations of what those means.) In order to stop allowing yourself to be hurt, you have to detach, remove yourself from the situation.

I was grossly misinformed about the nature of male/female relationships. I was raised that "women want sex just as much as men"

This is not misinformation. Women do want sex just as much as men. They just don't necessarily want it under the same circumstances.

Ok, as usual, RIO, you and I are going of on a major t/j. Sorry, OP.

Ok, as usual, RIO, you and I are going of on a major t/j. Sorry, OP.

Actually, I find the offshoot conversation to be quite fascinating. I, too, had no idea what the "dread game" was.

Dread game is instilling a sense of fear (fear of loss) into your partner by doing things to show them that you are more important than they are. Classic dread game is simple, don't answer the phone when someone calls. Or answer and tell them, with no explanation "Sorry, I already have plans tonight" (even when you don't) to get them to up the ante in the relationship (Can I get you to cancel those plans if I do XYZ? Something I've actually heard a few times using this technique). It's a way to put the other person off kilter, show them "who's more important here" and make them "work for the relationship". There are lots of ways to do it, openly talking to other women in front of your date, being aloof, being late for things and leaving early because "you have something else you need to get done tonight". A lot of "mystery" and "misdirection" is the paramount to it. I'd be talking to a girl, and a friend would come over (guy) and I'd say stuff like "I've got to go, someone just go here" and abruptly end the conversation. Just let it hang out there. Was it another girl who just got there? No, it wasn't, but no reason to clarify, let her think it was and she need to "do better" to keep me.

Basically it's trying to make your partner (or the person (s)) you're pursuing jealous, no?

I definitely had guys try these things on me in my dating days, but didn't realize this was like... an actual game? But now it makes sense why they'd get so thrown off kilter and 180 (not THE 180, but suddenly their last minute plans cancelled) when I would be completely unbothered. I always thought if someone wants to be with you, you'll know it, and if not that's fine, because I could just make other plans and see where the night took me. It's a lot easier for a girl who wants to have sex to find some cute, willing participant(s) than it is for the average straight guy.

The 180 isn't about instilling fear. Sure, it brings fear for a wayward. Plain of lethal flatness was fucking scary as Hell. The 180 is about the betrayed spouse realizing they have more self respect for themselves than to "nice" a wayward out of their wayward behavior and mindset knowing that if I cheated again, she would be perfectly fine because she has self respect and self love to not settle for the character of a cheater. They are worthy of respect and love.

into your partner by doing things to show them that you are more important than they are.

It is about showing they can and will move on without us if we can't get our shit together. It isn't about prize or being more important. It is about healing and moving on with their lives. A wayward like myself would see it as a prize thing because we had an object love mindset. A healthy person sees it differently.

Basically it's trying to make your partner (or the person (s)) you're pursuing jealous, no?

I was never aware of anyone I was interested in doing anything like that to manipulate me. I got stood up sometimes, but not someone at least having the decency to tell me he was busy.

This is not misinformation. Women do want sex just as much as men. They just don't necessarily want it under the same circumstances.

If that's true, then there's no harm in using basically any kind of manipulation/technique (outside of force, of course) to get a woman into bed. Because, I certainly wouldn't have cared if someone did that to me (manipulated me into bed), because I enjoy sex for the sake of it. So you're wearing tons of makeup and a 4" skirt to try to "lure" some guy into bed with you? OK by me, in fact, I applaud it because I like it. "Game" would be the same, who cares if I'm lying through my teeth, we're both getting what we want (sex), right? That's where the whole thing falls apart for me, because, as many, many a WW here has told us, sex is not what they wanted, it's the price they paid to get what they wanted. But that thing that they wanted, in many cases, was just part of a "game" for the AP. Just like it was part of the "game" for me dating. Fine if we're both out for a lay, not so fine if you think my eyelids really are blue and are really upset when the "makeup" comes off and you realize the person underneath doesn't look the same.

The 180 is not about manipulating the other person. It is about protecting and caring for yourself.

The intention with the 180 and dread game are entirely different, that much I concede. However, the actions themselves are almost entirely the same. And the reaction in the other person, also, is going to be very similar. You can use "dread game" (or game in general) for good purposes (get into a relationship with a girl you really like) and for bad purposes (see how many girls you can sleep with for sport). The same thing is true for other things, you can use makeup to look pretty for your husband and you can use it to get ready for a romp with the AP. Same actions, totally different intent. So, I see where you draw the distinction, and I do see it, but in this case, I just feel they are too close, they were for me. I knew how to do it, and I knew what to do to get my WW interested again. F**k that noise. If I need to manipulate her into it, well, that tells me what I need to know. I put my cards on the table (which is pretty much the opposite of game) and let the chips fall where they will.

I'm not telling others to not use the 180. I think it's a great plan, in fact, I've told others to do it myself. I know it works, I've seen it first hand in the dating world. And I'm also not saying that it's wrong to do to your WS, shoot, don't get me started. If the 180 is the worst a WS gets, they got off very lightly. It just wasn't the right answer for me.

Rio, your love and respect for your wife really shined through in that response. I do think women want intimacy and sex but they don't want to be lied or tricked into it. Maybe for some it's a harmless game and lies are just come with the territory. I never liked lies, we are cautioned against them. The human heart desires truth. We want to be loved for our authentic selves, not just for the actor we pretend to be. Maybe thats good enough for some people but I'm glad you found something more. It's hard for a young innocent or a hurt person to recognise a lie. True words spoken from the soul are one of our greatest gifts. They last in our memories and intensify our connections.

Sometimes I think of it this way- Words are linked with creation and therefore have a sacred element.

We can heal or wound or inspire. We can come together or break apart through words. Words are powerful. We ought to use them for good as it was in the beginning

[This message edited by pureheartkit at 9:31 PM, June 22nd (Saturday)]

Well, call me old fashioned, (ha ha!) I appreciated the men who were honest and just let me know they just wanted to shag and I could say "yeah, me, too" or "no, thanks".

I don't care what they are fucking calling the "games" people play nowadays but playing "games" between males and females have been going on from the beginning of time. I knew when a guy was trying to play me and if he was fun enough maybe I would shag anyway, but I would also let him know I knew he was full of shit. Sometimes the guy trying the game on me was such an arrogant piece of shit, I would turn the tables on him, and then leave him high and dry. FTG! Of course, women play games, too.

But, honestly, living during the "sexual revolution" I feel lucky that a lot of that/my generation seemed to be more honest about our sexual wants and didn't hide behind games. Free Love and Peace, man!