SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

To me, it appears she is much more concerned with, and grieving for, the death of a brother, that she has had nothing to do with the last 4 years, than she is concerned with the death of her marriage and family life. Her primary concerns appear to be that no one finds out about her treachery, and the loss of the security you provide her. On top of that she shows no respect for you or your feelings and emotions. Tell her she is more than welcome to the felon with the 4 times marriage divorcee. You have already put up with a lot more than you should have. I have lost a brother and sister, that I was very close too. The hurt was terrible but no where near as bad as if I saw my marriage disintegrating because of infidelity, disrespect, and an "I don't care" attitude. She is showing you what is important to her. Believe her. I do wish you well.

[This message edited by anoldlion at 10:04 PM, October 5th (Saturday)]

I finally spoke with the OBS, I don't know why it was so hard for me to call her but I was incredibly nervous.

She confirmed that she and AP are actually getting a divorce.  She thanked me for telling her about her cheating husband, apparently my call confirmed her suspicions that her husband (AP) was cheating and gas lighting her.  He lied about being in a relationship with my WW for months as her instincts were telling her otherwise.  He made her feel stupid when she asked if she was seeing anyone and started fights with her.

We talked for over an hour.  The only thing that I learned that I didn't previously know was that (according to her), her husband was actively trying to reconcile their marriage during his affair with my WW.  I gave her the basics, the facts as I know them.  I told her there were a lot more details and that I would share them with her if she wanted but would withhold them if she didn't want to know specifics.  She asked for all the details so I shared them.

When I hung up with the OBS I felt in control of my life for the first time since Dday.  I felt relief, not quite happiness but confidence.  It felt good to tell someone, specifically OBS, about my WW's affair.  I was reassured by her that I did the right thing by telling her.  Thank you to all on SI that encouraged me to tell her.  I wish I would have done it sooner.

OBS confronted her husband (my wife's AP) that night.  I had asked OBS to let me know if she thought her WH was still in contact with my WW.  He obviously cannot be trusted, but he did say that the last time he spoke to her was on the phone on Dday (8/1/19) and the last time he heard from her was via email on 8/2/19.  So, according to a cheating, lying sack of garbage, apparently the A did not go underground.

The next day I flew out early to go to my brother-in-law's funeral.  I did not tell my WW that I was coming.  I surprised her at the house she was staying at early Saturday morning, the day after the OBS confronted her WH (wife's AP).  I was anticipating that my WW's reaction to me showing up for her brother's funeral would let me know if she was still in contact with AP.

Her reaction was cold, detached and confrontational.  She said later that she was just in shock at seeing me there and couldn't believe I had flown down.  But she was angry.  She claimed to be mad at me because now, due to appearances, she would have to spend time with me and not her dad as she wanted.  She was not happy to see me.  Her family on the other hand was thrilled.  I told my WW that I was only there to support her in her time of grief and pay my respects to her late brother and family.  I insisted that she do whatever she would have done had I not shown up, including driving to the funeral with her dad.  I told her I had no intention of talking about her A.  She had previously told her dad that she had an A (no details) and I did spend time alone with him.  The only thing that came up was that he noticed I had lost weight and I acknowledged that I had lost about 25 pounds since August 1.  I never mentioned the A, I didn't feel the day of his son's funeral was an appropriate time to discuss.

I spent time with her family throughout the day, sat next to my WW at the funeral service and she rode with me to the crime scene after the funeral where everyone met up with Crime Stoppers, canvased the area with fliers asking for witnesses to the hit and run to come forward with tips and even stood with my WW, her dad, family and friends while 3 local news crews interviewed and filmed the story for the local news.

By the time I left late afternoon, she had thanked me for coming and supporting her.  It was tough to get a read on whether she was initially angry with me for showing up unannounced or if she was angry because she was secretly still in touch with AP and he had told her that I outed him to the OBS.  Her angry reaction could have been from anything as she is generally a cold person and would doubly be expected to be cold on the day of her brother's funeral.

I flew home that night, spoke to her about logistics only; kids, finances, funeral stuff and reactions to news stories about her brother.  Pretty much avoided her calls and texts throughout the day yesterday, speaking to her only briefly last night before bed about logistics only.  My second weak attempt at 180.  It occurred to me over the weekend that she hasn't once asked me how I'm doing.  Just a general question like, "How are you doing with the kids, your mom and having to juggle your work schedule these past 2 weeks so that I could be out of town helping my family with my brother's tragic death".  Not one time.

I feel like I'm starting to detach from her.  My expectations of her are fading away.  I'm starting to accept that she won't do the work to help me heal or make any time for me to talk through my pain.  She flies home tonight and I'm not going to make any effort to talk to her about anything other than logistics for the family.

I also don't plan on making another appointment with the ARC.  This feels a bit risky to me since it is the only place where she's opened up about the A.  And since we've invested 11 weeks with this guy, he's shared his strategy to use my WW's grief for her brother to open her up to talking about my grief from her A.  I don't know if it's the right move or not.  If my WW asks to go back I'll go back, but I'm going to let her actions determine if we see him again or not.  I'm going to focus on my IC, which I have my 3rd session tonight before my WW returns home.

I'm considering asking my WW to move into the guest room.  We've been in the same bed every night since Dday.  I only asked her to leave one time and I only left once, it was a few weeks after Dday and was usually after a bad night of conversations about her A.  I feel like asking her to sleep in the guest room is petty, more of a mean thing to do to her than a good thing to help me.  But maybe the timing of asking her to move out works. She's been gone for almost 2 weeks, except for the 3 days she came home last week where we barely reconnected.  Perhaps asking her to start sleeping in another room now will have some kind of impact on her, show her that I'm moving on from her and don't want her near me anymore.

But again, I'm trying to get rid of any expectations of things she'll do for me or actions she'll take to address her A.  My only real expectation is that she'll cling to her brother's death for the foreseeable future as a shield from discussing the A.  She already told our ARC that she was afraid that her brother's death "would be the event that would keep us from reconciling". But that just feels like her victim mentality coming out to set up an excuse for our marriage to end.  She'll blame her brother's death as the reason we will likely divorce, rather than accepting any responsibility of her A killing our marriage.

I think the thing so many WS's miss is that talking is opportunity. Her failure to engage tells you clearly that she doesn't want that opportunity. The WS needs to be chasing YOU, not the other way around. She needs to prove to you that she's worth your time and trouble, but she's not even willing to get in the game at this point. And yeah... grief. But she hasn't spoken to that brother for four years, and you can bet your ass that she DOES understand that adultery is wrong. She's stalling. She's hoping you'll "get over it". She's got a big head from all this attention, the belle of the ball as it were, and she can't imagine that you won't be waiting around hat in hand. In her world, she is central.

Nail on the head Chamomile.  I will attempt a stronger 180.

Remember that you're not required to tell her what's on your mind, what you're planning, how you feel, nothing. We make ourselves vulnerable with people we trust not to hurt us. We share with people who are likewise open. These things are GIFTS. She's not deserving unless/until she's honest and engaged.

Thanks for stating this in real world terms.  It's so unnatural for me not to share these things with her that I'm afraid it will come off angry and intentional to her.  I have a hard time being nice/polite to her while distant and disengaged.

So, you are a big imposing powerful guy who apparently is comfortable with expressing anger and pain. That is good. I am a bad-ass attorney who can argue anyone into a corner on a coin-drop. Also a good thing. But I have learned in my career (personal life too) that “you cannot alienate your audience” if you really want to persuade someone of something and really press your point home. Your ARC has terrible communication skills apparently, but I would guess that this is the point he was trying to make.

If your spouse, hearing what you have to say, is gearing up in fight or flight mode and automatically preparing a defensive reply, you are not going to get through. This does not mean that you have to “be nice” or suppress anger, but you do have to find ways to tell her what is going on with you that do not scare her and make her shut her ears. The best way I know to do this initially is with “I statements.” You can google that. It is a first step toward true vulnerability, which is what truly will get through to her if anything can.

Maybe you need a one-on-one with the ARC to see if he has the insight to really help here without endorsing her fantasy of “compartmentalizations” and FOO issues. If she trust him, and IF he can stop feeding her rig-sweeping compulsion, maybe he can actually help. Worth a try.

Thanks Odonna.  I have years of Emotional Intelligence, Conflict Management and Sensitivity Training for my job.  "I statements", active listening, love languages, all that.  But I've never tried to apply them when my emotions have been so high.  It feels disingenuous but I need to do something to be able to communicate my feelings to her without making her shut down.  I will try.

[This message edited by ElvisHeartbreak at 2:38 PM, October 7th (Monday)]

Elvis, sounds like you did a kind thing for your WW and you handled yourself with integrity. You continue to prove by your ACTIONS that you are a good husband and father.

I am glad you are starting to detach. You need to continue the 180. It really helps, as you are starting to see.

However, you aren't quite there yet. What you don't seem to quite realize (by your actions) is that YOU can't fix the M. Your WW has to be fully invested in this, and she is not.

You are right to cancel any future counseling sessions. Your WW is showing you it is a waste of time. Until she is willing to do the work, you are just beating your head against a wall. For the sake of your head, and the wall, stop. You seem to be fighting for your M, which I totally understand. I did the same. Until I realized, I couldn't do it alone.

Don't ask your WW to move to the guest room. Move her shit while she is gone and tell her. SHE burned down the M, not you. She is only looking out for herself, hence the wallowing in grief. She doesn't care how you are doing, she only cares about herself. So do the same. Or move your own stuff to the guest room, if you prefer, but YOU make the decision. Stop waiting on her.

You say you feel in control after talking to OBS. Great! that's a huge step. You are learning that a great way to help yourself heal is to take control of your life. So keep it up. If you want to be in a separate room, make it happen. This is YOUR LIFE. Figure out what you want it to be and then go make it happen.

I'm considering asking my WW to move into the guest room. We've been in the same bed every night since Dday. I only asked her to leave one time and I only left once, it was a few weeks after Dday and was usually after a bad night of conversations about her A. I feel like asking her to sleep in the guest room is petty, more of a mean thing to do to her than a good thing to help me. But maybe the timing of asking her to move out works. She's been gone for almost 2 weeks, except for the 3 days she came home last week where we barely reconnected. Perhaps asking her to start sleeping in another room now will have some kind of impact on her, show her that I'm moving on from her and don't want her near me anymore.

But again, I'm trying to get rid of any expectations of things she'll do for me or actions she'll take to address her A.

I think it's fine to ask her to move to the guest room. If you met this woman as she is today and knew her capacity for selfishness and deceit, chances are pretty good you wouldn't invite her to sleep in your bed every night. This shouldn't be a tactic to get your WW to engage in recovery though, it should be about what's best for your peace.

The 180 was invented by Michele Weiner-Davis in her book DivorceBusting as a gambit to attract a recalcitrant mate back into the marriage. The flaw in that is an obvious one though... it's the "pick me" dance. And as we discussed earlier, even if it works, it's not working. You might attract your WW back into the marriage but what you're getting is NOT a remorseful wife who's ready to work. What you're getting is the entitled, selfish person who made thousands of willful choices to cheat, who hasn't made any significant changes and who doesn't get why she should.

I see what your ARC is trying to do. He figures if he can get her to stay engaged in the process than maybe 6, 12, or 18 months from now she'll finally get it, finally understand what she's done. But he's got no guarantees of that, and in the meantime, you're getting your teeth kicked in. Every day that your WW remains recalcitrant is another day she's ADDING to the damage pile, until one day it becomes a mountain. Insurmountable, not because she might not be interested in repair at that point, but YOU will have curled in on yourself by then, with no love left and no will to try.

So... you make your decisions now based on what YOU need. If you need her out of the room while you sleep, it's not a tactic. You need your space to rest. If you do the 180, it's not a gambit. It's because YOU need the emotional distancing in order to view events clinically. The 180 does have value. It's just not the value Weiner-Davis proposed. It's to help you recover from emotional enmeshment.

Deleted

[This message edited by Westway at 9:32 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)]

Elvis, sounds like you did a kind thing for your WW and you handled yourself with integrity. You continue to prove by your ACTIONS that you are a good husband and father. 

That's me Tigersrule, the serial "nice guy" to the bitter end.  I finished "No More Mr. Niceguy" on my way in to work this morning.  So many things in that book resonated with me. I'm struggling with wanting to do nice things for people, either out of habit or compassion, and applying principles from that book to my life.  I have no problem living my life as a man with integrity.  I am a good person, and I am proud of that.  But I'm learning I need to be more selfish and even a bit of an asshole to put my needs first.  It is not something I am comfortable doing but want to give it a shot if it will help me keep from getting walked over in love and life.

I am glad you are starting to detach. You need to continue the 180. It really helps, as you are starting to see.However, you aren't quite there yet. What you don't seem to quite realize (by your actions) is that YOU can't fix the M. Your WW has to be fully invested in this, and she is not.

It's hard to detach honestly.  I'm a sucker, but all I want to do is embrace her and hold her and try to feel any love from her that I can.  She flew home late last night and we hugged for a bit, but I was all business - being present in the conversation but not doing much more than responding and listening to her talk.  Minimal engagement.  It felt like I was punishing myself more than putting distance between us.

You are right to cancel any future counseling sessions. Your WW is showing you it is a waste of time. Until she is willing to do the work, you are just beating your head against a wall. For the sake of your head, and the wall, stop. You seem to be fighting for your M, which I totally understand. I did the same. Until I realized, I couldn't do it alone.

It was surprising to me, but she reached out this morning to ask if I had booked any future ARC sessions. I had not.  She asked if I wanted her to book and I told her I'd go with her if she wanted to go.  I was fully prepared to not go back, but told myself that if she worked to make an appointment then I would go with her.  After the volatile session we had last time I feel like I should at least give Dr. WW Enabler a shot at redemption.  It makes me feel good to see her at least request me to attend the session with her.  I don't get much reassurance from her these days so I'm taking this as a positive.

Don't ask your WW to move to the guest room. Move her shit while she is gone and tell her. SHE burned down the M, not you. She is only looking out for herself, hence the wallowing in grief. She doesn't care how you are doing, she only cares about herself. So do the same.

I think it's fine to ask her to move to the guest room. If you met this woman as she is today and knew her capacity for selfishness and deceit, chances are pretty good you wouldn't invite her to sleep in your bed every night. This shouldn't be a tactic to get your WW to engage in recovery though, it should be about what's best for your peace.

I didn't move her shit, but I did ask her last night to sleep in the guest room.  I don't care if she sleeps in the master bedroom when I'm out of town, but not when I'm home.  I'd like to keep this from our kids if possible so no moving of things, she can use the room/bathroom but I don't want her sleeping next to me for now.

It was really difficult for me to finally have her home and then ask her not to sleep next to me. But I did it and appreciate the validation from these comments this morning.

I see what your ARC is trying to do. He figures if he can get her to stay engaged in the process than maybe 6, 12, or 18 months from now she'll finally get it, finally understand what she's done. But he's got no guarantees of that, and in the meantime, you're getting your teeth kicked in. Every day that your WW remains recalcitrant is another day she's ADDING to the damage pile, until one day it becomes a mountain. Insurmountable, not because she might not be interested in repair at that point, but YOU will have curled in on yourself by then, with no love left and no will to try. 

I'm willing to give ARC a shot at redemption, but he's going to have to stop coddling my WW and help her understand the actions she needs to be taking NOW for me to heal.  I won't sit through 6 more months of enabling her victimization card or validating her compartmentalization tactics.

The 180 was invented by Michele Weiner-Davis in her book DivorceBusting as a gambit to attract a recalcitrant mate back into the marriage. The flaw in that is an obvious one though... it's the "pick me" dance. And as we discussed earlier, even if it works, it's not working. You might attract your WW back into the marriage but what you're getting is NOT a remorseful wife who's ready to work. What you're getting is the entitled, selfish person who made thousands of willful choices to cheat, who hasn't made any significant changes and who doesn't get why she should.

If you do the 180, it's not a gambit. It's because YOU need the emotional distancing in order to view events clinically. The 180 does have value. It's just not the value Weiner-Davis proposed. It's to help you recover from emotional enmeshment.

The 180 feels so unnatural for me.  I feel like I have to intentionally be distant and detached, when all I really want is to reconnect and feel love from WW.  I completely understand the logic behind it, and get why it is important for me to disengage.  It is not easy for me.  But I don't want her to come back to me if she's going to be the same unremorseful person she is now.  I don't want her back if she's going to do this to me again one day.  I want her work hard at helping me heal and working tirelessly to make me feel love from her as she tries to win me back.   -  As I typed those last 3 sentences I see how much work I have remaining to be able to "let go of the outcome".

I will stick with it but it does feel very passive aggressive to me.

Wow. I've read both threads: this one and the other. It's like reading two totally different stories. 

Help me out Westway, which "other" thread are you talking about?

I still feel that she has suffered zero consequences from having an A.  I'm sure she's been sad, mostly about her brother for the past 2 weeks, but probably a little sad about how much she wrecked our life.  But nobody knows her secret of infidelity and she has no public shame or embarrassment from friends/family by killing our marriage.  We play pretend all the time in front of our children, neighbors, family.  It drives me crazy, but I'm sure outing her to the world about the awful details of her A wouldn't make me feel better and would likely drive her away for good.

What's been really difficult for me is all the outpouring of condolences for my WW in response to her brother being tragically killed.  Dozens of our friends and family have reached out to her, to me, offering their "thoughts and prayers".  She gracefully accepts their sympathy, mourns more for her brother, and wallows in sadness for his tragic death.  People in my office gave me a condolence card signed by about 40 people.  Old friends I haven't spoken to in years have called/texted asking me to tell WW they're thinking of her during this difficult time for her.

When she was interviewed on the local news regarding the tragic death of her brother, she actually stated that she was "so sad that my brother never had the chance to get married and have a family".  I was standing right behind her when she said this.  Literally lamenting the fact that her dead brother would never get the chance to have the same thing that she destroyed.  Irony much?

I've done my best not to be upset by the attention she's getting from her brother's death, but inside it's eating me up.  Where's the condolences for my tragic loss?  What about distant friends and family telling me they're so sorry my floozie WW spread her legs for a fat, fifty year old, four x divorced flooring contractor felon?  That they're sorry my WW abandoned her children for the summer while she spent 18 hours a day in a constant state of arousal and schemed to meet up with that fat felon at every possible opportunity?  That she destroyed the love that we had built and murdered the way of life we had worked so hard to achieve?

This is where being selfish feels like being a dick to my WW as she grieves her brother's death.  I know she has to grieve him, for as long as she needs to grieve.  But I can't sit around in the backseat of this shitwagon waiting for her to be done grieving her brother before addressing what she has done to me and the pain she caused me.  I feel like that's her expectation of me and her A now. Backseat, will get to it when she gets around to it.  I don't know how much longer I can wait, but don't feel it's fair to put a time frame on her to show me something.

The grieving period may last a long time. However, no one is going to convince me that after a few weeks she can't grieve for him and help you at the same time... if she is committed to it.

You said he was estranged, it's not like they were twins or particularly close. Does she realize the amount of trauma you are experiencing? Has she done any serious reading about just how much trauma infidelity inflicts? Has the counselor impressed upon her the depth of pain a betrayed spouse feels?

I think it would be good to have a written comparison and have the counselor back you up to show her that the pain you are experiencing is of a similar magnitude, if not greater, than grieving for an estranged brother.

Elvis, there is nothing mean about the 180. No one's asking you to cross your arms and frown whenever your WW walks into the room. No one is asking you to ignore her. All that's being asked of you is to stop showering her with care, validation, and feelings. Treat her like you would a coworker or acquaintance. Polite but not overly enthusiastic to share every little thing with.

I actually wonder if you might have to re-read NMMNG or start addressing how to unlearn that putting your needs on the board as valid and setting boundaries is mean. It's not mean in the slightest. I can see that you're acknowledging injustices such as the ARC, your WW's lack of care about you, her yelling at you for having feelings, etc. But then sliding right back into questioning yourself and allowing your boundaries to be trampled at the slightest hint of conflict. Either you agree that the ARC is enabling your WW to stay remorseless and that needs to end or you're okay with it and want to keep going. Waffling and giving the decision to your WW while silently resenting her and the ARC for disappointing you is exactly what NMMNG says NOT to do. You have to get into the driver's seat and make decisions or you will keep being disappointed and mistreated. And there's nothing cruel or dickish about the word "no".

I know it's difficult to accept but you have clearly spent a long time allowing your WW's feelings to override yours. I'm sure it felt noble - hell, I know it felt right because I too had to overcome this myself. But it's now giving her the idea that's okay to tell you to stuff your pain in favor of hers. In fact, she expects it and punishes you for speaking up for yourself, even if it's as meek as reminding her that you're in pain too. You putting her first, even after she hurts you, has become the status quo and she will expect that to stay the same until you stand up and change it. And the longer it goes on, the less chance you have of getting her to change.

She's banking on you not rocking the boat. She's banking on you looking like the bad guy for asking that your spouse, the person who vowed to support you and be by your side, to treat you like a human being and a little bit better than she would a stranger. I'm guessing she apologizes sincerely to people who she bumps into or steps on and tries not to do it again. I'm guessing she doesn't use the opportunity to scream at them about how they need to back off because her day has been so much worse than whatever pain she caused them. That's how low you are on her totem pole and you will never R with her until that changes. And if/when things don't work out, that can be your fault too for having the ball to cry out in agony from the trauma she inflicted and refusing to comfort the perpetrator. It's difficult to take her off that pedestal and stop giving her the benefit of the doubt while she treats you like a robot but this is the reality of where her mind is at and the minds of many remorseless WSes. They won't give it up until they face the reality that you won't stay married to them as they are.

You know.... you WOULD'VE been super supportive through this whole tragedy IF SHE DIDN’T HAVE AN AFFAIR! But SHE made this mess, SHE ruined it, and SHE needs to fix this now. She will not get over this loss for a very long time, you won’t be able to wait forever.

This is HER doing, she drove the marriage into the ditch, she does not get to be the victim.

You seem like a very nice person... too nice. She is treating you like garbage. And, it pains me to say this: you are letting her. Start standing up for yourself. Take steps to move on without her. If she snaps out of it, great... but move forward.

Sending you good vibes.

The 180 feels so unnatural for me. I feel like I have to intentionally be distant and detached, when all I really want is to reconnect and feel love from WW. I completely understand the logic behind it, and get why it is important for me to disengage. It is not easy for me. But I don't want her to come back to me if she's going to be the same unremorseful person she is now. I don't want her back if she's going to do this to me again one day. I want her work hard at helping me heal and working tirelessly to make me feel love from her as she tries to win me back. - As I typed those last 3 sentences I see how much work I have remaining to be able to "let go of the outcome".

I will stick with it but it does feel very passive aggressive to me.

Feeling like the only person who can comfort us is the very same person who stuck a knife in our back is a typical response for BS's. You'd probably be surprised how many of us go through that. We crave their understanding, long for them to empathize with our feelings. It's a weird, almost compulsive preoccupation that so many of us experience. It will pass though, and doing the 180 can help expedite its passing. IOW, the good news is that you're NORMAL.

I know how counter-intuitive it can feel to pull back emotionally when what you're feeling inside is a compulsive need to reestablish connection. But until your WW gets in game, until she is engaging fully and honestly in the process of R.. she's a "barbed wire monkey". Look up Harlow's monkey study if you need clarification. Long and short is that you're trying to bond with something that doesn't have the capacity yet for emotional connection.

The 180 isn't passive-aggressive. You're not doing anything TO her. You're doing something FOR you, because right now you need the clarity of mind that distance will bring. Your neural pathways are set up to rely upon and to connect with your WW. This has been your habit and norm. The 180 helps you redirect your mind and grow new neural pathways with which to learn a new habit and norm, one which relies upon and connects with YOU. It feels unnatural because you want the old status quo. You want your wife. But we don't always get what we want. Your wife isn't available just now. There's only the barbed wire monkey. (Also, either way it goes, that sense of self-reliance becomes imperative to healing. We never go back to the same level of emotional dependence.)

You don't have to be nasty about it. There's nothing in the 180 which requires nastiness. But it will keep you from sending mixed signals about being okay with her adultery. And it will help you break free of your emotional dependence on her.

This isn't a forever thing. You would only do the 180 until she either engages in MEANINGFUL recovery or until you're done waiting on her to do so.

I'm so sorry. It is actually eerie how similar this situation is to my own, but I am now 2 years post. I know exactly how you feel because those were my feelings.

I am now beginning to believe this must be a pattern among similar personality types. My WH is still saying he is sorry 2 years later and I still do not believe him. I now believe he is incapable of true remorse. We are separated right now (not divorced) and I guess I have just come to accept that he is still a shell. That is him and it cannot be changed. His childhood trauma created that

and nothing more can be done.

I am still kind of lost at this point. I wish I had divorced him right away. Obviously your choice how you choose to deal with your situation but my advice - leave her, and work on you. Be the best version of you possible. Unless you want to play pretend with her forever, because it sounds like she has the same personality as my WH and that is fake, manipulative, and incapable of being genuine.

ElvisHeartbreak, I don't have much to add other than you are doing really good. I just wanted to urge you to keep doing what you're doing.

I really just wanted to get on here and give you support.

This is team ElvisHeartbreak!

I don’t feel like I’m doing good. Last night was awful. My WW and I spent time together alone for the first time in over a week after the kids went down. She asked me if I wanted to talk and I, still in detached 180, said sure. She asked what was up with me, why I was so cold, uncaring and unloving to her. She asked why I was being mean to her.

We talked for a while, I told her that I was still in incredible pain from her affair and that it was very difficult for me to be kind, loving and nice to someone that did those things to me. She told me that she didn’t feel this was a “safe place” for her to open up to me since I was so cold and distant. She told me that my behavior was pushing her away, even asked if I wanted a divorce. I told her I don’t control her and am not in control of the outcome of our future. She protested and said I was, that I wasn’t following our ARC’s advice to be nice and that it was me pushing her away, insinuating that it would be my fault if we couldn’t reconcile and would divorce.

After getting nowhere, I asked if we could talk about something else. Specifically her brother, since I knew that would be on her mind. She completely shut down, told me she didn’t want to share anything with me and started crying. We sat in silence for a few minutes before agreeing to go to bed. Again, sleeping in separate rooms.

I fly out of town for work today, won’t be home till Friday. I feel sick to my stomach. I wish I would have held and confirmed her last night, I wish I would have suggested that when she was ready the talk about A I would engage but that I would let her grief for her brother if that’s what she needed to do. I just wish I didn’t feel this way right now. Anxious, sad, nervous and more unsure about our future together than I ever have been.

She seems like she’s checked out completely. I know I can’t control the outcome but can’t help but feel I could have done a lot of things differently to have a different outcome this morning.

Elvis, you’d be well served to read and re-read Chamomile Tea’s most recent post until you begin to fully embrace why the 180 is necessary. It is not to punish your WW, but to protect you. You are the wronged party! Your feelings matter! Look out for yourself; your WW sure as hell isnt looking out for you!

Your WW is just like mine: a selfish, self-centered, self-obsessed, entitled brat who doesn't give a crap about anybody but herself.

EH:

Look, from everything you have been able to find your WW is not currently involved in A and has not been in contact with the OM since the beginning of August. She desperately wants to rugsweep the whole thing and blameshift if you cannot R. Doing the 180 is not going to make her come out of the fog or Limerence, because from what you have described, there is none. She wants to move on and get past it. She does not display humility. She is defensive and contentious. Underlying all of this is a fear of facing her own shame and guilt.

You have to use your own judgement to figure out how to approach your WW. You know her better than any of us. Just know that every action carries a reward and a risk. If you want to reach out and be kind and caring to your WW. There is no harm in that. Whether you R or D, you are going to be tied to this woman for decades She may open up more to you and be less cold. But you will continue to hurt and have resolved pain if she does not take that opportunity of your reaching out to reciprocate and begin to show remorse. Take your time. This is not a race. Time will give you a perspective and a chance to see her actions. Right now her actions in refusing to acknowledge your pain, and instead selfishly focusing on herself, is the problem. If and how you can break that stalemate is the question.

No one would blame you if you just decided her actions and stonewalling are a dealbreaker, and just file for D. I know you are filled with anger. Are you still going to another ARC session? You decide how much of this crap you can put up with. You decide whether you want to reach out and comfort her. You decide what you need going forward to stay in the M, if that is what you decide to do. Bottom line is: always value yourself. Never sacrifice your self respect. Stay true to your own values. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 9:44 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)]

She asked what was up with me, why I was so cold, uncaring and unloving to her. She asked why I was being mean to her.

We talked for a while, I told her that I was still in incredible pain from her affair and that it was very difficult for me to be kind, loving and nice to someone that did those things to me. She told me that she didn’t feel this was a “safe place” for her to open up to me since I was so cold and distant. She told me that my behavior was pushing her away, even asked if I wanted a divorce. I told her I don’t control her and am not in control of the outcome of our future. She protested and said I was, that I wasn’t following our ARC’s advice to be nice and that it was me pushing her away, insinuating that it would be my fault if we couldn’t reconcile and would divorce.

After getting nowhere, I asked if we could talk about something else. Specifically her brother, since I knew that would be on her mind. She completely shut down, told me she didn’t want to share anything with me and started crying.

Let's boil this interaction down to the bare bones so you can see what happened...

You're doing your 180, stepping back and just waiting for her to notice. She does notice and asks what's going on. You share your feelings with her in hope that she'll finally validate and soothe them. She turns it around on you by focusing on her own feelings and then blaming you for "pushing her away" (a regurgitated phrase she picked up from ARC which subordinates the feelings you originally shared). You then capitulate and join her in prioritizing HER feelings... which she promptly shuts you out of.

Have you talked to your IC about your ARC's advice. Does your IC agree that you should continue to subordinate your own feelings in favor of this "be nice" strategy? Can you see from the above example where it gets you?

You started off with one of the strongest posts I've seen here at SI, doing everything right. Go back and read it again. You got the facts, saw an attorney, made an appointment for counseling, acquired passwords and details, insisted she read How to Help Your Spouse Heal, etc. It was a very strong start. Since then though, your ARC's strategy has siphoned the confidence from you and given it to your barbed wire monkey.

It's not hard to get a WS to agree to R on HER terms. It's hard to get her to agree to it on yours. This example from last night, this life you're leading since DDay... that's R on HER terms. That's your future. Is it good enough for you? Can you survive and thrive without validation and empathy for your feelings when your feelings will always be a distant second in her list of priorities?

I understand that her brother's unexpected death has thrown you for a loop, that you don't want to be insensitive. I understand that events have unfolded in such a way as to drain you of impetus, so that now you're afraid to rock the boat. But a "marriage at all costs" strategy won't make you happy in the long term. You can already see how it saps your strength. Grief takes its due. It can't be denied. And anger turned inward will lead inexorably to depression. It's going to be a long, hard road to healing. And if your WW isn't firmly committed to Team ElvisHeartbreak, you're worse than alone on that journey because your feelings will always be subordinate to hers an never a priority.

You've got three choices...

1) You can divorce her out of hand.

2) You can ignore SI and block out every voice but that of your ARC putting blind faith into his method.

3) You can stand up for yourself. Be authentically who you are. Set your boundaries on who's good enough to be allowed to participate in YOUR one and only precious life. And let stragglers fall behind.

Your WW is a SAHM who has squandered the lifestyle and opportunities you've given her. She is selfish and vain enough that she doesn't believe you can do better. She is immature, self-centered and without empathy for others. She is a barbed wire monkey. What specifically in your ARC's strategy is going to change that?

Anyway, keep mulling it over. You don't have to make a decision today. In the meantime, be gentle with yourself. You're going through a lot right now. It takes time to gain clarity of purpose when you've been traumatized. Make sure you're following through with good self-care routines. And be confident that even though it seems a mess right now, you WILL get through it.

Strength to you.

It's been awhile since we have heard from you. How has things progressed? Has there been any progress?

She told me that she didn’t feel this was a “safe place” for her to open up to me since I was so cold and distant. She told me that my behavior was pushing her away, even asked if I wanted a divorce.

You need space and time to think so what. This is not all about poor muffin.

I told her I don’t control her and am not in control of the outcome of our future. She protested and said I was, that I wasn’t following our ARC’s advice to be nice and that it was me pushing her away, insinuating that it would be my fault if we couldn’t reconcile and would divorce.

Ah yes. You must rugsweep, fix nothing (typical MC) and set yourself up for a repeat or false R.

A lot of this is cheater script. This can't my fault!!!!! I cheat and it's all up to you to fix it? Nope

Some one said this, I forget who but it fits your situation....

“ I know this sounds harsh but I think every single person who gives a cheater a second chance is weak. That person does not love himself/herself, he/she is ready to go through unlimited pain and trauma for a person that did not think about her/him when he/she arranged everything to spend time with someone else. Reconciliation is just you feeling sorry for yourself and thinking you don’t deserve or can’t get someone better. There’s nothing strong about the person who chose to be an option and you may not agree with this or may even criticize me but I’ll never change my opinion. Cheaters are weak, the ones who forgive them are weak too, I don’t want weak people around me, hence why your rich, powerful lawyer ex boyfriend will never get me”