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Oh really? I must have missed it when she texted OM yesterday and on Saturday? How did she do that without her phone? Don’t make sense to me.

Dan didn’t say she texted the OM.

Several pages back, Dan said she texted him LAST Saturday and Sunday (prior to getting caught). At least that is how I interpreted it.

The texts were the weekend before.

Well, that was hard. The first thing that I asked was where was she when she left the house? She said that she want Christmas shopping for the girls and even produced a receipt from a bag in the back of her car.

I didn't mention that the locator showed the phone being at the house, as that would have implicated the in-laws. She asked to come home, cried and seemed to show serious remorse. I told her that I was not ready for that yet.

I had the copy of the timeline and my spreadsheet of the text messages. I made her go over each day and grilled her on the 4 1/2 hours of phone calls.

I really think that the core of their relationship was their daily phone calls.

What the hell did she talk about for so long? Was she falling in love or just a fling? She admitted that she was excited to get up and call him every morning, but at the same time she was having panic attacks over the guilt and thoughts of being caught.

She admitted that they first kissed when they arrived at the restaurant last Monday (2nd lunch date) and then again when they arrived back at work. She wouldn't admit it but I think he may have had his hand in her pants not over. I hammered her on that point and she was somewhat evasive.

I said that I would contact him if I felt that she was lying. She then admitted that she told him about her new dress and that he requested that she not wear panties to the party. She said that she probably would not have worn them. That one was hard to hear.

I asked her why she felt that she needed to destroy our marriage for this guy? She said that she never thought that anyone would find out but now realizes just how reckless it was. She says that she has never done anything like this before.

She claims that it was a of rush feelings that made her feel almost intoxicated. She says that she never once thought about a future with this guy.

She said that she already started looking for an IC counselor and ordered the book "not just friends", although it looks like they skipped right over being friends. Then she wanted to come in and make up for a while. I turned her down.

Oh yeah, I asked her who was the "Kelli" that sent a text today. She said it was just a girl that works in her department. I told her that if I can't trust her that I am leaning towards a D.

The TT already starting. She’s minimising the physical stuff. Initially put his hand down there under clothes then over clothes and then not sure. I mean how many other men have done that to her where she can’t remember? Geez, sometimes. Hopefully you’re able t clarify all the points you needed to know.

You’ve had 25 years with her (20 married). What does your gut tell you about her responses? What are you thinking about what she said or even what she didn’t say?

Congratulations on getting through the first face to face talk without calling her “a piece of shit who should be down on his knees thanking god his parents are dead and didn’t have to see him behaving like a scummy fuckwit who hurts people for sport.” (My words during my first face to face... - I was really pissed.)

Edited to add a thought on the no panties thing. As a woman, when we leave the house without them, the intent is not to just casually share the lack of panties with someone and then go back to discussing everyone’s holiday plans or the stock market. I’m sorry. If she said she was probably going to leave the house without them, she was at a bare minimum planning to prove their absence.

[This message edited by Lieswearmedown at 11:26 PM, December 17th (Monday)]

She then admitted that she told him about her new dress and that he requested that she not wear panties to the party. She said that she probably would not have worn them.

Explains why he was so pissed. He knew he was going to get some. She was commando and ready to go. Then you showed up and cock-blocked him. Thus the chest bump in the parking lot.

So now that you know this. Does it matter that they did not have sex? They were going to. They both knew it. The only reason it did not happen was you listening to your gut. What if you had caught a cold and could not go to the party?

So it’s only that the logistics got messed up that kept her from having sex with him.

Her “panic” attacks are IMO bullshit. It does not sound like was was panicked at all, she seemed excited and DTF.

Do you really want to play prison guard for the rest of your marriage? Monitoring her constantly? Checking locations and text messages? Paying for a semi annual polygraph to confirm she is keeping her knees together and not blowing a doctor in the closet during lunch?

[This message edited by ramius at 11:20 PM, December 17th (Monday)]

Ramius,

Your last question was unnecessary. The man is going through trauma and we don’t need those type of descriptions.

If you are going to freak out every time she leaves the house then you are going to have to give her explicit instructions about being transparent and accountable. It’s not normal to never leave a house. But it’s reasonable for you to ask her to tell someone her whereabouts at all times.

I am not convinced they didn’t have sex or oral, but I do think she’s probably being honest about the timeline and genuine in her attempts to fix this.

He is a predator, for this to have escalated so fast. He has definitely done this before. But I don’t think your wife has. She sounds a bit naive in some of her texts to him.

Take care. Don’t hold it against your girls that they want to see and talk to you wife. This is not war, they don’t need to take sides, and they absolutely do NOT need details about what their mom did (just in case you were considering that). For kids, honesty is good, but details are damaging.

I think at this point she is showing some regret for the whole thing especially getting caught. Remorse is when she understands what she did to you, the kids, her marriage etc. That seems like a looonnnng way off right now.

The panites thing, unless she told you, you would never have found out. That's a "good"thing that she was honest about .

The bad thing is her intent on going commando. Easy access for her BF during the party and a sure thing at the after party IMO...that's the bad thing.

She really wanted it to happen but it didn;t. Sort of like shooting at someone and missing, the attempt was there.

You are the one in charge, let her know she will need to convince you to R not the other way around. She is looking to you for guidance. D is right there on the table...

Hang in there Dan, Keep strong. It's good to keep her at her sisters, then into the guest room when BiL is fed p with her.

.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 11:50 PM, December 17th (Monday)]

She said that she never thought that anyone would find out but now realizes just how reckless it was. She says that she has never done anything like this before.

So does this mean that if she was careful enough and not reckless that it would have been ok ?

She admitted that she was excited to get up and call him every morning, but at the same time she was having panic attacks over the guilt and thoughts of being caught.

Well, evidently she wasn't panicked enough to stop the A, she went full steam ahead with it, that's simply just bullshit.

She then admitted that she told him about her new dress and that he requested that she not wear panties to the party. She said that she probably would not have worn them.

I wonder how she can reconcile the "but I didn't promise him sex" with this, of course they were going to have sex after/during the party, OM wanted her to be ready to go and she was going to willingly and eagerly comply with his request, what did she think was going to happen ? of course we all know and she knows. Not that you need her confirmation but if she was being honest she would admit to wanting to have sex with OM and to admit it was going to happen at some point, did you ask her point blank about that ? if so what was her response ?. Has she contacted OM since the party and/or anybody else besides the supervisor ? what did the supervisor tell her ? Would she agree to file a sexual harassment complaint against OM ? not necessarily to actually do it but just to see her reaction and to see if she's willing to protect him.

Tell her she needs to get tested for STDs and show you the results, remember that even if she denies having full blown sex (there's no way to verify that at this point) some STDs get transmitted via saliva, check the VAR tomorrow to see if she called anyone on the way or right after she left.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 11:55 PM, December 17th (Monday)]

Remember

1. You can't police & monitor the rest of you life

2. She may take the affair underground. Letting things cool down with OM until she feels you are settled down

3. You can't fence her in

4. You can't "nice" her back

5. She must show true remorse for reconciliation can even be considered

6. Please listen to your gut, it is seldom wrong.

And small antidote about my FWH. I caught him at his office on a Saturday. The secretary's car was parked outside. My 4 yr old inquired why is (secretary) here. I got that sinking gut feeling further complicated by having my 4 yr old with me. After pounding on the door FWH answered without a shirt, no socks and a pair of unzipped pants. I pulled the waist band of his pants, and just as I suspected no underwear. You are going to love the answer. He claim he sh@t his pants. I replied why because I caught you fu@king her.

I got the BS explanation that Thank God I caught him in time.

Before he "Did it". I later found this particular relationship lasted 10 years. Should have trusted my gut.

You can glean a lot of invaluable advice from the people on SI. But you can get a lot of angry advice from some who, through their hurt, will express what they would like to have happened in their situation. Divorce is the final answer, not the first. I've heard it said "you take what you need and leave the rest." I would say to talk to her. Ask all the questions you need to ask. Many depend on the 180, and in some situations it is exactly what is needed. But in some situations there needs to be talk. I have seen very few things settled without communication. What she did was 100% wrong and would probably have escalated if you had not discovered it. You are fortunate that what happened to you was not nearly as devastating as hundreds of others on SI. I'm not saying to let her off, because cheating should have consequences. But if you really love this woman you can work this out. If she has never done anything like this before, then getting discovered before the affair got really serious, can be a very dramatic wake up call for her. Most people, who have any brains at all, will shy completely away from something that has caused them so much hurt and damage. I may be wrong but I would be willing to bet she will never cross that line again. She now knows that that you know she was capable of such action. I have read so many times where cheating spouses say, that while the affair was ongoing, they didn't have a thought about what would happen if they were caught. In fact they never thought they would get caught. She now knows what will happen. I think you are doing well so far but don't do something in the heat of hurt and anger that you will regret later on down the line, like the regret your wife is having now. I do wish you well.

In my opinion folks need to slow down on the vary shades of guilt of if she wore panties, why was his name different in the phone or whatever.

This was a physical affair and she had a boyfriend. That’s all that Dan needs to know at this point. His mind is racing with 50,000 thoughts and to the degree that we can these thoughts need to be clarified down.

Once these thoughts stop racing then this adrenaline rush that he’s on will stop and he’ll be able to truly examine his feelings on the topic.

I second Sharkman. Everybody, slow down.

In my opinion she dropped OM like a hot potato. It is highly unlikely that she will contact him now or in the future. Danin's decisive actions made her snap back to reality and she's now in "oh shit oh shit, what have I done" state. Of course, she is also in cover her ass mode, but I think she instinctively realizes that anything but the truth will hurt her too.

Dan, when you talk to her, emphasize that minimization and TT most likely would be fatal for any chance of R.

She bought Not Just Friends - good, but I would recommend "How To Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda MacDonald first. It is more concentrated guidebook, and probably what she needs right now.

I second the "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" suggestion. It's a very quick and to the point read.

I wouldn't take the issue of this not being the first time off the table. Everything about the marriage is potentially suspect. Hold the polygraph option as a way of crosschecking whatever she claims.

Your WW needs to know that she has a very small window to expose everything. Any TT, minimizing, etc. will harm any chance of R. The fact she disclosed something that you couldn't probably verify (not to wear panties) is a good sign, IMO. The fact that she hedged around over clothes or hand in pants question is suspect. It's like she didn't want to lie but didn't want to tell the truth. She needs to know that if it isn't the whole truth it's a lie and lies by omission are still lies.

It seems, Dan, from my far off desk that you're staying strong. I implore you again to make sure your daughters get IC. Try to get sleep yourself. It's hard, I know. I didn't sleep for a long time after DDays. Reduced or no alcohol intake. If you can't eat solids get some meal replacement drinks. They were a life saver for me.

What happens going forward from here, Dan, is your decision. You can D even if she pulls out all stops. If it's a deal breaker its a deal breaker. You can wait and watch. Actions speak louder than words. You can R. Some say the marriage can even be better. Your WW will need to do a lot of heavy lifting with total honesty and transparency but there are quite a few here on SI that have successfully built a new marriage that is better.

It is your decision. A decision that was forced on you. You will find support here for which ever route you take to get out of and surviving infidelity.

Then she wanted to come in and make up for a while. I turned her down.

Dan, you are doing an incredible job. Keep that strength and focus. That you turned her down on the offer to come in and "make up" is a big positive. Avoid the hysterical bonding if you can. HB screws with the BS's head and sends a message to the WS that things are quickly getting back to normal. I've not ever read of an instance where HB is the gateway to getting back to normal.

Stay the course. You are handling things as well as they could be. I think there is a fair amount of projection from hurt BS's over the span of these 40+ pages. You have a lot more very specific details than most of us BS's had and have found it far earlier than most as well.

You are in a great position to move forward with a calculated process. I am confident you can winnow through the hundreds of comments and decide which are helpful.

So far, the facts seem consistent with the conclusion that you nipped a nascent sexual A mid-stream. Her actions post DDay have been focused on the family: cleaning the house; shopping. She's clearly not very good at lying and concealing, which is how you were able to notice her acting strangely before the Friday holiday party, which suggests that she is indeed a total novice at this. There are other threads here on SI where the WS was unimaginably smooth and practiced at the art of lying and deceiving.

I concur with having her read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal..." Much more apt than "Not Just Friends" in her case.

If R is going to succeed, two things must happen at minimum:

1. She needs to work with an IC to figure out what was broken in her moral compass to enable her to make a conscious decision to engage in sex outside the marriage. Figure out her "why's" as people say. She does this to fix that part and make herself safe again. "Safe" from your perspective. To this end, they say men have A's to add, women have A's to replace. Part of her why's is figuring out what it was she thinks she was missing in her marriage that she was trying to replace, and why didn't she come to you to address that rather than go outside the marriage? I can almost guarantee it wasn't Thai food. Thai food was just a proxy for something. For many women, it's a sense of not being "seen" any more by their husbands.

2. The ephemeral matter of the heart. She has to convince you that her love and desire for you are true.

The speed at which this A was moving from initial meeting to full-on intercourse seems remarkable, but it's not. Again, there are dozens of threads on here with almost exactly the same facts. Once a WS is ready to have an A, she is ready. All she needs at that point is an opportunity. This is why WS's often say that the identity of the AP is almost irrelevant. She would have moved into an A with any sleazy man who came along and offered her the saccharine words she believed her soul was craving.

In my observation, craving is the operative word. She perceived she was craving something, and she also perceived that she could not get that thing from you. Note I use "perceived". In the end, when a wife has a PA, it almost always comes down to "I craved somebody who would listen to me and see me." They crave that intense escapist fantasy that is difficult to muster in the midst of the quotidian drudgery of working and raising kids and managing a household.

Which gets back to making her safe. Obviously, since you nipped this one in the bud, her craving went unfulfilled. Meaning it's still there. The main work she needs to do is figure out what it is and why she sought it from somebody other than you. You will be safe with her if and when she figures that out and fixes it.

Good luck.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:11 AM, December 18th (Tuesday)]

So very sorry Dan.

I read this thread but didn’t notice if it was mentioned if this guy is married or not. Most likely he said he wasn’t anyway.

I’m in Montreal. PM me if I can help.