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Every word Bufffalo writes here is gold. It's the best way to handle what is happening to you and to her.

My WW is not unique in her actions with the exception that she truly believes that she and the OM are twin flames/soul mates.

Felco, there is nothing unique about thinking an AP is a soulmate. First time I've ever heard the "twin flame" label for it, but it's still a bunch of crap. My husband and his AP were convinced they were soulmates.

It's how they avoid facing what they are and the guilt that goes with being a cheater. If they were meant to be, they can't be wrong or at fault, right?

Sure.

Um, no. They're just cheaters. Nothing more. Nothing special. Just cheaters.

[This message edited by sudra at 7:06 AM, January 7th (Tuesday)]

I will say that this TF thing is most likely her coping mechanism. Now her dilemma with us is if she can be in love with me again. Typical question? She's wondering if we will work out due to the issues before and she fell our of love after my first child. Am I trying for something not there?

I hugged her this morning.....

Man this is such a roller coaster. I guess time and MC will tell. We are going to the same Councler for marriage as her IC. Is that usual or should we change the MC?

Again confused...

[This message edited by Felco at 9:18 AM, January 7th (Tuesday)]

Felco. Please Please Please go back and reread Bufffalo's post. He hits the nail on the head each and every time.

I believe therapy is a good thing for BOTH of you. You to work on your Co-Dependent issues, and brother you have em. Her to defog. Do I think MC will help? Not at this point. All it can do is either reinforce her point of view, which I fear will happen if you use her IC, or two encourage her to lie and continue to bury this shit deep.

She is still pining for this asshole. She still has feelings for him. Right now she is choosing this path to try things because she doesn't want to loose the best of both worlds. She has a lover that has rejected her (supposedly) but if he believes in the "Twin Flame" crap then it's underground. She has a spouse that has shown her will do ANYTHING to keep their M. INCLUDING ALLOWING HER TO ABUSE HIM AND BE A SECOND CHOICE. Yes YOU ARE A BACK UP PLAN. Do you see that yet?

She has left a path of destruction, and she is still all about her. She is broken, and needs to start the real work of healing herself. To do that, she has to seriously come to terms with what she has done. She isn't even close to that.

180 is made for you. Until you start to detach and start to put you first, and love yourself, you will be allowing her to continue to abuse you. You are certainly setting yourself up for the repeat. Focus on you and what you need to be happy, WITHOUT her.

You deserve much much more. Demand it.

I hugged her this morning.....

*sigh*

I know it's hard but you need to detach. You cannot comfort her and she is incapable of providing comfort to you.

I think MC is not a good idea right now unless it is about co-parenting. Your WW has not committed to fixing the M so what is the goal of MC? The reason MC fails most of the time is because one of the spouses is not invested in fixing the M and not really trying to make the MC process work.

Am I trying for something not there?

I hugged her this morning.....

You asked.

she fell our of love after my first child

dilemma with us is if she can be in love with me again. Typical question? She's wondering if we will work out due to the issues before

She replied.

Regardless of your hopes and feelings, her feelings are for the OM. That's why the 180 is for you. If/when she comes to you with actions, not words, that's when you decide if it's worth trying.

In the meantime, 180. Do not interact other than kids and finances.

Strength

I completely agree I am codependent.

I felt drawn to hug her. I guess I feel like we are drifting apart. Yes, she already have "checked out" and says its is increasing as well as me so I thought we connecting would help. My heart can't rationalize with this not connecting. I do most of the 180 except shut my mouth and hugged this morning and she pecked kissed me. She mentioned that a co worker told her that it is much harder for woman to come back from an affair especially an emotional one. Her mom thinks she is mentally ill. WW says what meds will do is mask her feelings. I told her to go to the doctors to check her hormones and get an STD test

UGH!!!!

[This message edited by Felco at 9:43 AM, January 7th (Tuesday)]

At least her mother sees it as it really is. So many MILs will conspire in the destruction.

She mentioned that a co worker told her that it is much harder for woman to come back from an affair especially an emotional one.

^^^Probably true, as women tend to judge reality by their emotions, which of course are self-generated and prone to being arbitrary in nature, not necessarily connected to reality. So to 'come back' from an EA, a WW basically has to cognitively dismiss 'reality' (their feelings) even though it wasn't reality. It is hard let go of what one thinks is/was real. And that includes the negative feelings created for the BH in response to the A.

Sorry for your situation.

She mentioned that a co worker told her that it is much harder for woman to come back from an affair especially an emotional one.

Yeah, that's been my understanding too. I stumbled upon a forum where a lot of the posters were WW. They consistently did not want to reinvest in their M and in many cases D their BH. Many of them commiserated how they were now the OW to a MM who would not leave their BW. Those WW convinced themselves that developing those "feelings" somehow completely invalidated their M and any feelings for their BH (i.e. I must not have loved my BH that much if I could get excited by the MM). Some people would ride the Titanic to the bottom of the ocean than admit they''''re wrong.

[This message edited by Brandon808 at 11:32 AM, January 7th, 2014 (Tuesday)]

Is this coworker male or female? Hope it's a female and pro-M. I think that a M should be two people. These things should be discussed only between you two and a MC or IC that has experience in handling infidelity. It's dangerous bringing anyone, even a supportive parent into personal discussions like this. They just don't have the distance or training.

She's wondering if we will work out due to the issues before and she fell our of love after my first child. Am I trying for something not there?

Truly, how long has she decided that? It sounds like typical WS justification to me...rewriting the M. MrH wrote to xOw2 that in all the years we had together, he never felt the way he did with her. That our M was dead. Now he's fighting to convince me that it was always me, he was just too stupid to see it. He never felt this way...you get the picture.

It seems to go against common sense to disengage when you are trying to build love back into your M, doesn't it? If there was no A, then doing those loving things would make more of an impact. At some point though, your WW chose to use another person to even out whatever problems she was having. You're a crutch, he's a crutch. She's clinging to the twin flames crap to hold on to that balance. By withdrawing, you help yourself heal, yes. But you also are taking that crutch from her. She will either face her issues and begin to work on herself and the M or she'll run away. Either way, you're not enabling her anymore. Think of it as tough love.

I felt drawn to hug her.

By 'drawn to' you mean wanted to, right? Let's not get into another 'twin flame' vs. 'soulmate'. You wanted to hug her, so you did. You are hurting your chances of R greatly with these actions. You know it, and you refuse to stop. The fallout here, it seems, will be because you've shown your wife that her behavior is OK.

I guess I feel like we are drifting apart.

The word here is 'detach' and it's the purpose of the 180. There is NOTHING wrong with detaching from a person that is so stupid that she is spouting some twin flame crap at every turn, and applying it to some guy that screwed her because he could.

Yes, she already have "checked out" and says its is increasing as well as me so I thought we connecting would help. My heart can't rationalize with this not connecting.

Rationalize? So, can you rationalize her deciding she is not in love with you? Can you rationalize her telling you to your face she is in love with another man?

Stop trying to rationalize. We have ALL given you the same advice, and you consistently ignore it. We all know how this game is played, and apparently you absolutely think your situation is unique because you do the exact opposite of what knowledgable, experienced people have consistently told you to do. Why is that? Why do you feel you have some secret that the dozens of people that have walked this path and lived to tell about it? I'm really wondering this - because clearly you do feel this case is unique.

I do most of the 180 except shut my mouth and hugged this morning and she pecked kissed me.

Really? What page of this thread do you discuss the 180 that you're doing? You live with her, you talk to her constantly about your relationship, you hug here, you let her kiss you, and you refuse to tell her to leave.

What parts of the 180 are you doing? You're missing the big ones - the ones that help you detach and the ones that make you realize you don't need the WS.

She mentioned that a co worker told her that it is much harder for woman to come back from an affair especially an emotional one. Her mom thinks she is mentally ill. WW says what meds will do is mask her feelings. I told her to go to the doctors to check her hormones and get an STD test

Yes, that's it. Make some excuses for her. Her hormones are off. She's crazy. She's emotionally attached to it. Any excuse except that she's a selfish cheater, right? Then it wouldn't be her fault, right?

You're even trying to find a way to make this not her fault. Do you see that?

Felco, this is page 13? 14? of this thread. From page 1, you've justified doing the opposite of what works. You've said 'but' more than Sir Mixalot,

We have given very solid advice. We did NOT give 'here's what you do, and it will be fun and exciting, and you'll really enjoy yourself while you get your WW to get her head out of her ass.

Felco, you have 3 options, and only 3. Everything else is just sideline noise.

Option 1: You keep doing what you are doing. Your wife will stay. She'll lie to you about how she feels. She will lie to herself to about what OM feels.

In this option, OM and OBS eventually get into a fight. He contacts your WW, who RUNS to finally be reunited with her twin flame. He'll go back to his BW, of course, but she will do this to you every last time she gets the opportunity to see OM. She never let go of him. Why would she? Each time she and OM see each other, they try to sneak off for a bit. After all, it was circumstances, not love that kept them from each other. They were 'meant to be'

Option 2: They see each other randomly. She tries hard to be next to him, always. They would be together if not for prior relationships. She was never forced to really see how pathetic all of it was, and she has concocted a fantastic narrative of this false lovefest. You can never compete with that, and you live with her, knowing that she would leave you in a second if OM were ever to become available. Worse, she knows you know, and she continued.

Option 3: You actually listen to the advice here. You push her off of her fence, and out of her fog. She is losing control. She isn't desired by any man, let alone a married fool that tricked her and used her for a year. She is left standing in the rubble of her own mess, and she is seeing it for the first time for what it is – a life ruining obsession. She destroyed her family, and for what? For a few months of pretending she had found a non-exist soulmate. She quickly realizes disturbed she is, and swears to get her family back no matter what it takes. She does anything to make you feel her remorse, and her love for you and the family the two of you have built together.

These are your possible outcomes. For some unknown reason, you are really striving for an option that lets you kiss her, and hug her, and pretend that everything is perfect between you. Sorry Felco, but like your wife, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Yes and yes you are right!!!

I am very weak when it comes to us talking without the kids around and I will fully admit it. My mind and heart are pulling me in different directions. I know you all are right about the true 180 100%.

I do want my cake and eat it too. It is too soon. She is a over the map and I am which is talk g me for a ride.

I thank you a for the tough love and honesty.

I am fixated on her and wasting my energy and should be on me.

Ugh!!! N

I had a long response. But just read bufff.... You are your own worst enemy. Codependent WW and to the marriage. Please 180 and focus on yourself. Keep reading bufffalo's last post

I am being inconsistent thus showing weakness.

Felco - Painfulpast is 100% spot on here. Reread that. No punches pulled just the plain honest brutal truth.

Your response again filled with buts, and excuses. Dude it is time to man up.

You know why you are being pulled all over the place, and your heart and mind are going two different directions?????? Because you are blatantly ignoring every damn thing we have told you.

YOU HAVE TO DETACH. YOU HAVE TO FOCUS ON YOU AND YOUR KIDS. EVERY LITTLE BIT you give only encourages and reinforces the fact that she can shit all over you and yup you will still be there, begging for more.

We have a saying here for the women who do this, and that is "It's time to pull out bitch boots, and put em on".

It's time for you to find your manhood, your innerstrength, your bitch boots, your biker boots, your studded leather jacket, whatever it is that you envision makes you strong and tough. Put all that shit on, and draw your line in the sand and stick to it for Gods sake.

Otherwise the only people you are hurting are you and your kids. Is this what you want them to grow up thinking a normal relationship is? That some weak, wavering man is what's normal. That women can mistreat them?

WAKE UP. YOU ARE IN CONTROL OF YOUR DESTINY. NO ONE ELSE. DEMAND THE RESPECT YOU DESERVE. ACCEPT NOTHING LESS.

I completely agree I am codependent.

Felco, codependant usually means fixer. We want to problem solve and fix things for those around us. You love your WW so you want to fix this and make it all better. As already stated you CAN'T fix this situation or her. She has to do the work herself.

I was codependant as well. You want to know how I broke the cycle? All of the energy I was dumping into my WW and our non-existant M, I turned on myself. Instead of fixing my WW I decided to fix myself. You do this by focusing completely on you. Sit back and think about what you want to do with the rest of your life WITHOUT your WW. This is not a trick question. Assume you are going to spend the rest of your life without your WW, what do you want to do. When I asked myself this question the answer was "I have no idea". I decided to do something about that and did a hard ass 180 and focused completely on me and my kids. I started working out more, getting back into old hobbies and generally spending time rediscovering who I was. Basically all the energy I spent fixing other peoples problems I turned around and focused it on fixing myself and never looked back. This is the time that you need to be SELFISH for yourself and your children. If you are like many codpendants/fixers you give, give, and give some more but neglect yourself. Time to be selfish and not in the asshole selfish way but in the selfish I am going to spend some quality time on myself.

Each morning wake up and say what am I going to do for myself today. At the end of the day ask yourself what have you done for yourself today. The more time you spend on yourself the easier it is to detach and the stronger you get. Soon when your WW comes at you with the stupidity you'll think would I rather sit here and listen to this stupidity or go out to the game with my friends, or go to the movies, or museum or whatever it was you had planned for the day.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 10:38 AM, January 8th (Wednesday)]

Felco. I have what you desire: I'm in a 6+ year real R with my FWH and we are stronger, more loving, honest, and transparent than ever in our Marriage. We feel so long as we have our family, the world can rot. We are each other's best friends and each other's love forever!

We didn't get there by letting my FWH get away with his affairs EA and PA with double digit OW. We didn't get there by giving everything FWH wants. We didn't get there by letting him sit on the fence as to whether he wants to work on himself and support me or not. We didn't get there by allowing ourselves to have back-up plans which included AP.

I laid down the law and enacted consequences. I count myself lucky that he is a remorseful FWH but even then he tried to rug sweep and tried to "fix" me faster. I called the lawyers, I had him and me tested for STD's. I had him remove from our lives any people who are not friends of our marriage. I had him work his butt to make amends with me. I had him tell me he loves me every fucking day and mean it. I had him tell me every fucking day why he wants to stay in this marriage and why he supposedly loves me. I made him realize, yes I'm not perfect, but he's an idiot if he looses me. I faked that damn confidence and self-esteem until I have it!

In the end I told him, I'm going to be happy and I'm going to have a great life. I told him I'd rather he's with me but if not, his loss. The scary part was I meant it and he felt that and it scared him.

BTW, that twin flame crap is a huge trigger for me. As in the beginning my FWH pretty much told me that he "settled" for me and he felt he never really found his "soul mate"... Years later now, when I reminded him of what he told me, he just couldn't fathom what the hell he was thinking, that he was so lucky that I gave him, an idiot, another chance. Just see what I wrote down in my signature. That's reality. Our waywards LOVE their fantasy and I find that a dose of reality, in the form or lawyers, contracts, expenses, bank accounts, can throw cold water on it.

Hugs your way.

Thank you!! You guys need to smack me in the face!!

I will admit, I am scared that I will push her away further. I am silly for not listening because you all know and I am a scared father and husband who is following my heart.

I am a scared father and husband

^^^ we all get that. The 'tough love' methods espoused here, or in the book Love Must Be Tough for example, are indeed counter-intuitive in a lot of ways. But they really are the only way to save yourself and the marriage. It is just that you are not dealing with a rational actor. Your WW's judgement is compromised.

We understand that better than anyone. Hell read our profiles our stories. You will see we have walked in your shoes. We know what works and doesn't. It's scary stuff, but you need to realize this. YOU HAVE ALREADY LOST HER. Unless you think sharing her is ok, and you can be happy, she is gone. You won't push her away when you set boundaries, and consequences, what you will get is her respect. If you don't she's not worth your time anyway.

It really is that simple.

Now figure out what you are going to tolerate, and what you are not, and lay down some rules.