SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First of all I can't imagine how hard it is to have to go through all of this without having primary custody of your children. It sucks.

Yes Cafcass can be biased towards mums. Does she work full time? (I forget what you said). But either way, you know that the default in the UK seems to be for the non resident parent to get every other weekend, plus one evening (not an overnight) a week. IIRC you're getting more than that? If so, then they're unlikely to recommend more unless she is abusive. But it sounds like they're not recommending less, so that's a good sign.

The smacking thing? Yes, very frowned upon. Technically it's legal, but I think that because very few people are willing to admit that they smack, it's often viewed as quasi-abusive by social services/health visitors/cafcass. Given the breakdown in the M, you might need to be very careful about smacking in case your CSTBXWW starts raising concerns about it. Especially so, if your children are voicing their dislike of it. Don't give her a mallet to hit you with.

The 8 yr old with the list? No, that's not necessarily coaching, that could be a child who makes sure they are going to be heard and doesn't want to be misunderstood. I can remember, as an 8 yr old, being asked by my parents what I'd want them to do differently in their parenting of my soon to be baby sister (mum was pregnant). I wrote a list and read it out....and on it was not wanting her to be smacked because it hurt, it was embarrassing and it just wasn't ok because I wasn't allowed to smack them back when they were naughty. 8 year olds quite like writing notes and lists when they are given the opportunity to have their voice heard.

Also, children tend to remember events that are traumatic to them. Seeing you all arguing in public and the the altercation...that would have been traumatic for them,hence them remembering it. And that also means that they are less likely to remember all the fun stuff. Actually especially so if you normally do fun stuff - they take it for granted that everyone does that stuff, that the adults would know that, so they might not feel the need to mention it. That's why you need to document all the things you do, keeping ticket stubs, receipts etc as part of a journal to prove it.

Just remember, no home is perfect, so there will always be negative things that can be said. Same will be true of your CSTBXWW's home. You're likely to be focusing on the negatives right now because you're feeling scared/threatened by it all.

There is something that I'd like to ask you about...it's sensitive/awkward and I'm feeling a bit worried...the vodka? You mentioned it quite a lot on your previous thread and mentioned it again. Are you using it as an emotional crutch/anaesthetic? I'm worried that it could easily become a psychological addiction, and that really would harm your ability to care for your children. Are you seeing an IC? Might be worth talking it over with them so that it doesn't become an issue.

Softcentre,

Thanks for your post. I take all your points on board.

I've told them I will stop smacking but CSTBXWW used to condone it when we were together. Now she's using it.

DS8 would never think to write a note. Not in his nature. He doesn't even write a wish list for Christmas. Even if he did he wouldn't know what to write unless his mother explained exactly what the interview was all about. He will have been 'led' to reach the conclusion that he will see more of the baby if he sees less of me, despite the fact that it would only be one additional evening out of 14.

No child wants to be smacked. Thats the whole point. It's such a rare occurence but is being amplified to make me look bad.

The vodka had not been touched for many months. I was strong and feeling upbeat. The vodka only came out this weekend when the report arrived.

[This message edited by allatsea at 5:53 AM, February 10th (Monday)]

AAS

remember, it isn't a game. she hasn't won anything. they are your boys. Gru can't take credit for anything. If it's possible, he can take credit for being a decent person. Only time will tell on that regard. But you are their father.

take the long view... be the best person you can be. when you have your boys, be the best father you can be. that is it's own reward.

Don't engage her. Don't cause her to feel threatened. Don't play the game. You win, when you don't play. She will be who she is. The boys will eventually see thru her.

there are no cheering crowds. there is no winning other than being the best person and father you can be. they can't control YOU.

time will tell. this isn't a sprint. this isn't a wrestling match. it's a marathon. the winner is the one that can look himself in the mirror and know that he has lived proudly, kindly, honestly.

if you do that.... i promise you, your boys will recognize and be proud of their father.

so... please, do not despair. she has not won anything. you have not lost anything. you are still alive. you will still see your sons. you will still love and be loved.

/\/\ What Mike said

The vodka had not been touched for many months. I was strong and feeling upbeat. The vodka only came out this weekend when the report arrived.

Yeah, that was kind of the point I was making: if it only comes out when you''re not feeling strong and upbeat, it could be starting to become psychologically linked in your mind. I know thisbecause I had a trauma in my late teens and used alcohol this way. I''m not an alcoholic and never was addicted, but I did use it to self soothe for a few years. It took time to realise that it didn''t work. When all this A stuff hit me, I decided to make a conscious decision to set some boundaries about alcohol, that help me:

1. I generally do not drink on my own.

2. I allow myself EITHER a single measure G&T with lime (I have bought a measure) or one of the really small 1/2 pint bottles of beer on one night when the children are not with me. But only if I''m feeling upbeat etc. If I''m down, I''m not allowed.

3. When drinking with friends I do not drink to get drunk. I may get happily merry, but not drunk.

4. I do not email or text The Arse after having had any alcohol.

These ''rules'' have really helped me deal with everything much better than I did as a teen. Well, that, friends, family, and chocolate

[This message edited by Softcentre at 6:23 AM, February 10th, 2014 (Monday)]

Softcentre,

I have made that connection too. I mostly drink when I'm upbeat and never drink to excess. Just enough to take the gut wrenching agony and subdue the adrenaline.

I've never had an addictive personality and know I'm using it to stop my mind racing. It quells the anxiety.

Mike7,

Again, your words are very supportive. I know you're right in what you say but in the midst of it all are my two sweet little boys being kept from their dad.

Today is my one year anti-versary. One year ago today I was blissfully ignorant to the evil cheating bitch that I was married to. My children were at home and we were cooking a roast dinner to eat as a family.

By 8pm my world was changed forever

((((allatsea))))

(((AAS))))

That first Anti is a real bitch. Kinda like your CSTBXWW.

Try to focus on all the positives that you have at present, and the good things that are happening in your life. Then go do something really nice for you. You deserve it. Try to surround yourself with the strong people in your life, be it friends or family.

((((and strength)))

I hate to see you so down aas. The first Antiversary coming this weekend was bound to bring hurt you all on it's own, but add in the double whammy of the disappointing CAFCASS report and it's no wonder you're feeling so very low. I've nothing extra to add to the advice and support you've received so far because it's all been absolutely spot on - even though I know that taking the long term view may seem like a very cold comfort right now and this weekend is probably one of the very worst you've had. But if you take nothing else from these posts please take these words of mike7's;

remember, it isn't a game. she hasn't won anything. they are your boys. Gru can't take credit for anything. If it's possible, he can take credit for being a decent person. Only time will tell on that regard. But you are their father.

take the long view... be the best person you can be. when you have your boys, be the best father you can be. that is it's own reward.

Don't engage her. Don't cause her to feel threatened. Don't play the game. You win, when you don't play. She will be who she is. The boys will eventually see thru her.

there are no cheering crowds. there is no winning other than being the best person and father you can be. they can't control YOU.

time will tell. this isn't a sprint. this isn't a wrestling match. it's a marathon. the winner is the one that can look himself in the mirror and know that he has lived proudly, kindly, honestly.

if you do that.... i promise you, your boys will recognize and be proud of their father.

so... please, do not despair. she has not won anything. you have not lost anything. you are still alive. you will still see your sons. you will still love and be loved.

I know it's hard and it sucks big time. You're in my thoughts. (((allatsea)))

AAS~

Your a great dad, your boys love you and they always will.

I am so sorry that you are feeling down. The pain of the first 'Anti' Day is a Bitch! Just know that the sorrow that your feel today will become less and less as time goes by. Truly.

Indifference is the key. You have made great strides towards that, keep up the pace.

Take Care and feel better my SI friend.

((((allatsea))))

Hi again AAS

I'm glad to have heard an update. Don't know if you remember but I posted on your old thread regarding my brother and how now he has his boys 4days less a month than his WXW after a long child court battle, and a shared residence order firmly in place.

He too was absolutely gutted with the CAFCASS report after being interviewed by a guy. It was recommended that the wife have sole residency and he have the basic visitation (every other weekend and one night a week) and his report also seemed very biased towards the mother, despite the fact he had not seen them in over 6 months for no reason. I agree CAFCASS want an easy life and choose not to get too involved, when they should. My brother too, was very much in the same place as you are now, totally understandably, feeling he was a nothing in a fucked up system and had no hope in hell of achieving anything regarding his boys and that his two would be left in the hands of crazy wife and the AP.

I would like to say this to you and please remember this.

The shitty report is a recommendation, not a bible of what should happen. Whilst judges will view the report and it MAY have SOME influence please remember this is what it is a recommendation from one person. My bro went in first hearing, going for a shared residence order 3 days after being acquitted of false DV charges and got it. A couple of hearings later his WW tried to get it changed to sole residency, and you know what the judge said? That his SRO needs time to work and he kicked her stupid suggestion so far into the long grass it has not been seen since. I hope you are going for SRO, and remember looking long range at this, CAFCASS have said there is no reason you should not be seeing your boys so you will more than likely come away with that.

Of course that's not enough, nothing but full custody would be enough, - remember, slowly slowly catch a monkey. After a little time you can go for more time, she enjoys a full weekend with them, it is in their best interests that the same is reflected with you etc etc.

I have to say, whilst a lot of 8 year olds can articulate what they want quite easily, I do feel that your WW has pit him up to this note he has written and influenced and brainwashed him in some form into writing it. To me it just seems a little too adult the content and implications of what was written, and I feel that the level of understanding and seeming understanding of the implications of homework, baby yet are too far ahead for many 8 year olds.

I'd like to direct you to a guy and a website that might be of use to you, he apparently is used in some child court cases and is an expert on parental alienation. Some of his articles are great, some sad reading but he may be someone you like to contact and run things by him for some peace of mind for you.

www.drludwigfredlowenstein.com

He is based in Cornwall I think.

I'd also like to add looking long term here that Gru has no kids of his own if I remember rightly and has no idea of what having a newborn entails. Given he is a lower muppet to begin with, I hardly think he'll win father of the year award, with all that extra responsibility, etc etc and again, looking forward, may well cause a lot of stress and pressure in unicorn land and in your WW attempt to keep the unicorn land dream going she'll have to make consessions to keep him happy and on board, that are not in line with her glittery dreams currently and the boys may well not like the way things are and child court wise and more time with your boys wise may well work very well indeed for you. Please try to remember this too.

This all takes that dreaded word T I m e, which sucks to hell and back, I just wanted to check in with you to hopefully give you a different perspective and support you in the shit awful place your in now after getting that report.

I hope this helps

Keep us posted please, there are so many of us here for you.

Swap the vodka for a hot choice tonight, much better.

Lots of light to you

MM

Edited to say that CAFCASS are meant to do a background check on Gru the poo so please make sure that is done, as in my bros case his WW claimed she didn't get the forms TWICE then dragged it out. Her AP is known by many aliases probably due to some shady activities but nothing criminal.

Edited to say again that some schools of thought think that a SRO should only be put in place if parents "get along" after a split and is no good for those that don't. However, there is school of thought that SRO are very good for parents who don't get along as it levels the playing field as to some form of equality that BOTH parents are recognised as having residency. Although wrongly it does not mean the time will be equal, it takes away the power play of "sole residency" and "non resident" or "parent contact" . I also think that the report may give your wife a bolster and that she will come unstuck with that in court and will help show her true colours. It's is a tough road this child court way, but is the lesser of two evils for you which it was for my bro, and you will have the court order, which can be modified which will serve to protect your time with your boys. Really things like not filling the water bottles up, I mean come on, what judge is going to think that's a good enough reason for you to have less time with your kids, honestly. The dubious note to me screams of your WW.

Sorry to keep editing my post, just keep thinking of stuff to say to you, which I hope will help.

[This message edited by mountainmomma at 5:43 PM, February 10th (Monday)]

Welcome to D/S

I too have been following your story.

I am just starting my legal battles.

Wishing you strength and remember to keep fighting those feeling that get you down, into the pit.

I know it is hard to stay upbeat and positive but we can't let them win everything.

Mountain,

Thank you so much for your post. It provides me with strength.

My solicitor phoned last night and she relayed a conversation she had with the barrister who will be my advocate tomorrow.

Apparently, the barrister thinks the CAFCASS report wasn't all that bad. Both the solicitor and I are too close to the situation and just looked for the bad bits but the barrister could see that the report made no decision on residency nor contact over the holidays. There were obvious omissions which will be addressed but overall the barrister thinks that we may be alright. I feel a bit better than I did but still anxious.

I really don't enjoy sitting opposite my pregnant wife and seeing Gru with his smug grin and googly eyes really winds me up. I just want to punch him.

At least I'm seeing the boys tomorrow night.

I liked your last edited paragraph very much. I've copied it and sent it to the barrister. Thanks for that.

Thank you to everyone who is supporting me on here

[This message edited by allatsea at 4:03 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)]

I know that I am doing myself no favours but I found this email that CSTBXWW sent to a friend of a friend (who also happens to be a WW who left her husband for another man who was also married) back in the days when she was trying to decide what to do (February 2013). It's a bit of an insight into the WS mind:

"> I have been with my husband for 19 years, and married for 9 of those. We met at University. I have always had a niggling doubt about whether he was the right man for me but never had the confidence to leave and he upped his game, became very devoted and we got married and had two perfect boys. We don't argue and are the best of friends but the relationship has worked because I try so hard and bear the brunt of raising the boys, working FT and being positive. I have always had my head turned by other men and before we married I have cheated. I thought I was just made that way and that I was emotionally stunted, disliked intimacy and treated sex in a male way, ie cold and without emotion. Then I met Gru at work. He happens to be my boss and is four years younger. We fell in love and started an affair before Christmas. I started finding it hard to remain attached, emotionally, at home and hated myself for what I was doing. BS found out last weekend and everything blew up. I thought getting caught and the risk of hurting BS and the boys would make me see sense and that I would realise that Gru is an infatuation and mid life crisis and that I would be remorseful and want to fight to save my marriage, but I don't feel it.

>

> I realise that Gru is all new and exciting but I feel something for him I've never felt for anyone else, ever. He is prepared to take me on and devote himself to the boys.

>

> I hate the thought that I will be the one breaking the children's home. It feels like a selfish decision for me. My parents want me to save my marriage for the boys and that hurts."

It obviously hurts to read that she always had a niggling doubt about us but I was interested to garner opinion from all of you

Of course, she has sought an opinion from someone who is going to give her the answer she wants to here. She got a response from someone who was been a "cheating on my husband has worked out for everybody" example

I have the response, actually.

[This message edited by allatsea at 6:14 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)]

AAS,

You have done all that you can do to preserve your marriage and family.

It is time now to save your boys and yourself. She may (or may not) ever come to grips with what she's done and it's consequences. That is no longer your concern.

Let the legal system do its work. Focus on you and your boys. Let her go her own way.

I will be the one breaking the children's home.

I will be the one breaking the children's home.

I will be the one breaking the children's home.

I will be the one breaking the children's home.

This is all that I see, AAS...

It obviously hurts to read that she always had a niggling doubt about us but I was interested to garner opinion from all of you

Just because she said it, doesn't make it true. A lot of waywards say that they "suddenly realize" that they always felt that way, but never realized it until just now. It is part of the playbook. The truth is, you will never really be able to know what is in that brain of hers, so don't torture yourself with what she may have been feeling.

he upped his game, became very devoted and we got married and had two perfect boys. We don't argue and are the best of friends

She also said this. Kind of contradictory, isn't it?

I have always had my head turned by other men and before we married I have cheated.

Nuff said aas. Ignoring all the other poor me stuff she wrote essentially saying she carried the whole marriage on her shoulders (re-writing at it's finest) she sounds like she was a ticking time bomb from the beginning anyway.

I thought I was just made that way and that I was emotionally stunted, disliked intimacy and treated sex in a male way, ie cold and without emotion.

This smacks of deeper 'issues' in her if you ask me. In fact, reading this makes me even more sure that Gru won't be her 'forever love' either once the gloss has worn off him being the Knight in Shining Armour that saved her from big bad old aas, and when the other men start turning her head again.

That e-mail is full of her justifications regarding you and unicorns about Gru. I doubt it will last aas - and I honestly do believe that you are better off without her because from reading her words here I'd say this was always going to happen at some time...and will probably happen again if she doesn't find out why she's (in her own words)

emotionally stunted, (and) disliked intimacy

once the new wears off Gru these issues will probably surface in her again.

If ever you wanted proof that this is all about her and not you - you have it in her own words in that e-mail.

[This message edited by sinsof thefather at 9:34 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)]

Sins,

I hear what you are saying but she implies that she was emotionally stunted and disliked intimacy with me but now she is with Gru she is all about the lurrve.

From the very first time we met she has been emotionally stunted and preferred emotionless sex. I've been with a few new ladies and they all say how tender and loving I am

I actually find it funny that she sought an opinion under the pretense of wanting an unbiased view but she sought it from a cheater whom it worked out for. She never had any intention of genuinely fighting for the marriage.

Here is the response of the woman she asked for advice:

Phew, right, finally I can sit down and reply properly. Ever since I saw your sister on Thursday and she mentioned what was happening with you, and how it struck her how similar our situations are/were, I've thought about you so much. There are so many similarities, it's brought back so many memories, and honestly, if I can help in any way possible, I will. I remember how horrendously confusing the whole situation is, how painful, how guilty you're undoubtedly feeling and the worst thing for me was how alone I felt so if I can help with that, even just a little, let me know.

It sounds to me, from the brief info below, that if the shock of BS finding out and everything blowing up hasn't made you panic and cling to what you know and already have, then you're already further down the line than it being a mid-life crisis or infatuation that will blow over. And everything you say about Gru and how you both feel also sounds like far more than a passing fling. It's true, you shouldn't just throw away a marriage, especially with children, but it's not like things were wonderful and now in comparison, BS simply can't compete with the new, exciting Gru. Sometimes we can just pootle along and things are OK, and then someone or something happens and it just opens your life up to far more possibilities and it's impossible to go back to how things were. This is exactly how I felt, almost word for word (even down to the age gap - I'm 38 and "poor new husband" is 34).

In a nutshell, I met poor BS at 16, we married when I was 25 and had our son when I was 27. Like you, I wouldn't ever have said he was my soulmate, or my perfect fit, but we did OK and while I often felt like he could do better or try harder, we rubbed along fine. He was a pretty good dad and adored DS, but I hurtled even further down his priorities, and I'd be lying if I said things were tickety boo all the time. We had a few rounds of fertility treatment after DS, which failed, and the way we coped with it really shone a light on the cracks in our relationship and made them unavoidable. I glossed over them for a while but struggled. BS's failings left me feeling very alone but they didn't feel big enough to leave over, esp as I had DS to think of.

I already knew POS. We worked together and he'd become one of my closest friends. Without realising it, I started to talk more to him than BS, and rely on him more for support. I then handed in my notice to leave and couldn't understand why I was so upset, but then I realised that POS wasn't just my workmate, but I felt more than I should. On my leaving do, we spent every moment together and I think we'd both come to realise that we felt more for each other than just friendship. We didn't act on it, but we began emailing and it was obviously instantly that this was huge. He was also married, and as soon as we both acknowledged how we felt (those were awkward emails), POS was completely upfront about how 'right' it felt and that, for him, there was no going back, even though nothing had 'happened'.

I won't waffle on about the detail right now (though will share it if it helps you), but the upshot is that we acknowledged how we felt in April, POS left his wife in May, knowing that there was every chance I would stay with BS. POS and I, desperate to do the decent thing, didn't act on our feelings physically, but the emotional betrayal couldn't have been more - I was at home, trying to make it work, but emailing my heart, soul and dreams to POS. Like you, I felt that I'd met my perfect match and had never, ever felt about BS the way I did about POS. All the cliches really came out but it felt (and still does) like POS and I belonged together, and really, it was just inevitable that I'd find the courage from somewhere and we'd end up together.

And we did. This was all in 2006, a hideous year, but we've now been together for fast approaching seven years and married for three and have had more babies, two beautiful little girls. I won't lie - the early days were crazy. Incredibly tough at times as I was tormented with guilt over BS and over DS and how he'd cope, but also magical at being free to be with the man I completely adored. BS said he was heartbroken and I'd ruined his life and he'd never recover, and lots more besides but, within a week of me moving out, he went on a date and within a couple of months he met the woman he's now married to, so he recovered far better than I (or he, probably) expected. And we've both worked bloody hard, POS too (less so POS's wife, but that's another story) to make sure DS came through it as unscathed as possible. And DS is testament to how kids can survive it. He was five, and had just started school, and although he had a fair few wobbles in the first few months, he adapted remarkably quickly and his life hasn't been ruined, far from it. His world didn't come to an end, it just changed, and yes, most kids would prefer that Mummy and Daddy are together, but sometimes life just doesn't work out that way and it's not the end of the world. It sounds so trite, but if they see you happy and relaxed, they accept things and go with it, without question. They need to know that Mummy is still Mummy, and Daddy is still Daddy and that when they're with one, the other is still accessible, still there and that they're loved. BS and I both ensured we were on the end of the phone every single day that DS wasn't with us, and if DS wobbled and needed me, I'd be there and vice versa. And it worked. BS introduced his girlfriend quickly, which worried me, but DS coped fine and didn't ask a single question. POS and I took it slowly which felt better, and DS adored him from the word go. And POS adored DS too, and even now, they're so close it's lovely.

Everyone will have an opinion and a sense of what's right and wrong, but only you know how you feel, and have felt up until now. It may not be what people want or expect from you, but they will get over it, I promise. I lost a few friends along the way but I know now that they weren't true friends in the first place. And let people help you when you wobble, it's essential for you and the boys to have a security blanket of people who care. My parents were quietly pleased I'd left BS and by letting them help me when I needed it, they felt better for being able to do something. It also helped that my mum already had me when she met my dad (my real dad and she divorced when I was a baby and she met my stepdad almost immediately), so she was an endless source of support and advice at times, still is.

I felt terribly alone and the only thing that helped me was the fact I had Dave by my side. If you're confident that your future is with Richard, lean on him to help you through this. He'll want to, and he'll be your biggest cheering squad and support.

I find it fascinating. She says that anyone who dropped her as a friend wasn't a friend to begin with. Some happiness seems to come from the most awful betrayal

[This message edited by allatsea at 12:18 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]