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This IS definitely emotional abuse. He is a bully and trying to get you to shut up and put up with him. It is also very hard to predict if he will become physically abusive as this thing plays out.

If he won't leave, you can do two things. Leave yourself, and take your baby with you. Do not leave the baby alone with him. Take a vacation to stay with family, friends or even an extended stay hotel. I think you need to get some distance from his craziness so that you can gain more strength.

OR - talk to a lawyer and tell him what has been going on and that he has used marital money to pay for sex with prostitutes/strippers and he has had those people in your home, and that you have a baby, you are afraid something really bad might happen, and that he refuses to leave. Bring proof of the paid sex with you. Ask the lawyer what you should do and I'm pretty sure he/she would be hot-footing it to a judge to issue an order for him to vacate the premises immediately, and in addition, probably a restraining order.

Good luck at IC and please do what you need to do to keep you and your baby safe. IC can only help so much. You are the one who needs to impose the boundaries and at this point, I think the stricter the boundaries, the better for you.

(((Gotcha)))

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

My CSAT says if I maintain the boundary by sleeping in separate beds (me sleeping in the guest bedroom), it is okay. And it shows him that I mean it. I have to remember I can't force him to do anything.

I will see how things play out and if he goes to therapy. If he does not, and I do not start seeing something or another from him soon, I will resort to more drastic measures.

Somer, thanks for your last post. I didn't know those things were possible. I'm pretty sure if I tried to leave, my husband would freak out. However, I have the luxury to work from home (aka anywhere), and my family is only a cheap flight away. That's always an option.

You can't make him do anything, that is for sure. But enforcing your boundaries is very important. If that means you take the guest room, that will work.

Stand your ground - send the message loud and clear!

[This message edited by somer222 at 5:14 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]

"The other morning we got into it because I said I didn't want him looking at porn anymore"

There is a line between cheating and normal mail sexuality. I am having trouble following the nuances in this thread.

Did he have actual sex with strippers? Like were his pants off and his member getting stroked, etc, with a sripper? Or are we talking about just a private lap dance, which a LOT of men get with no intention of cheating on their wives whatsoever?

And as far as porn, unless you are a Baptist minister...yeah most men look at porn from time to time. The line to draw there is if they start preferring porn and ignoring a willing wife.

Sixgun, unless you have extensive experince and knowledge of sexual addiction, I hope you will refrain from causing further injury and confusion to OP gotcha.

Maybe in YOUR world lap dances are a part of "male sexuality" but it's horseshit to call that "normal". For a large number of people on this forum, there are direct correlations between fuzzy boundaries around sex, and becoming a wayward spouse. And often heard is "boys will be boys" by people justifying choices that DO NOT contribute to a a marriage in a healthy way.

Is your need to defend porn and strippers so great that you cannot see the significant damage his has caused OP? Is porn and lap dances THAT important to you?

Sixgun, unless you have extensive experince and knowledge of sexual addiction, I hope you will refrain from causing further injury and confusion to OP gotcha.

Exactly.

Hello sixgun,

While I cannot give you specific details of my husband's sexual exploits with strippers, I can say that yes, he has had sex with many of them. Initially I thought they were strippers (since he was going to strip clubs), but really they were backpage escorts that would meet him at the strip club per his request (and then go bang 30 seconds around the corner from our house in her car or go to her hotel) or he would leave the strip club to go meet them. I'm sorry I don't have more sexual details for you, I didn't ask because I don't want them burned in my memory.

As for porn, I struggle with the fine line of what is "normal" male sexuality that should be excused/okay is and what is crossing the line. For years, much of my H's behavior I've chalked up to "normal male behavior" and it's gotten me here--married for 1 year to a husband who cheats on me with escorts for at least 6 months of it.

Porn? Yes, all of my male friends have told me they look at porn. Web cams? No, they all said something is wrong if you have to pay for porn. How much porn? Every night? He would look at porn every night instead of coming to bed with his wife. Actually it was more than porn, it was porn and web cams and reading erotic stories on ASSTR. He would spend at least $100 a month on it. In his heavier days it was up to $500 a month (a car note of porn.. yes)

In my world I thought guys going to strip clubs were fun and games, whatever, and lapdances to an extent were ok... that's how I thought. So I get what you're saying, but it's where my H took it that's the difference. Some men won't ever cross that boundary. Or, some may cross that boundary and have sex with one once (I don't know), but he crossed it multiple times over and over and over again.

Do you get it now? He does not possess self restraint and has demonstrated multiple times that it's not just a lapdance or it's not just porn anymore with him.

----------

In other news, I caught him looking at porn last night. I fight myself on the porn thing. Mostly because of the "normal male sexuality" thing. I know he hadn't looked at it for days. Also, my mom is an alcoholic and her doctor said to "ween" herself off of drinking slowly and not all at once so her body doesn't go into shock. I'm sure he won't go into shock, but does it work the same way? Why can't he just do his thing without porn? And that's the issue, according to my CSAT.

When one crosses the line into addiction, there's no such thing, any more, as "normal male porn."

Just Iike the recovering alcoholic can never take another sip of alcohol, the recovering sex addict cannot ever again engage in actions that might, for others, fall in the realm of "normal."

My point is this: it doesn't matter one damn bit what might be "normal" for someone else. Your husband's sobriety and your marriage depend on NO porn use.

As a woman whose husband preferred strip clubs and porn and sex with strangers in sordid places to sex with the woman who loved him, I absolutely understand the devastation. It is so perplexing, the lengths to which some men go to avoid real intimacy. It's NOT normal to turn away from one's life partner in favor of an image on a screen or page, or a backseat blowjob. Like any other junkies, sex addicts take greater and greater risks to get off--and this can get really scary. STDs are rampant.

I'm so sorry for your pain. As you know, you can't control him. I found the Serenity Prayer so helpful; surrendering what I can't control in order to focus I what I can has been life-changing.

Well I just emailed him my non negotiables, which basically was the list that was suggested on the previous page.

So we'll see what happens next. The hardest part is realizing you can't make him do something. I need have it like tattood on my arm so I can remember that everyday!!!

Well I just emailed him my non negotiables

Good for you, Gotcha. Keep us posted on how this goes and good luck!

Last night he offered to let me sleep in our bed instead of the guest bedroom. I knew he wasn't doing it out of the kindness of his heart. He was just doing it so he can sneak look at porn.

Of course I checked his phone and he deleted all his browsing history.

I'm so mad!!!!!!!!! He doesn't care and I'm so mad right now.

I asked him before he went to sleep if he got my email. He said hold up I'm just reading it. He said ok and I said well so you know if I find out you're looking at porn I'm going to be pissed. And he said whatever. Then did it anyway. I hate him so much this morning.

I want to throw his iPhone in a river!!

Someone on another thread posted something really profound the other day -- its was very simple but so very very true:

If their only consequence is you being mad at them, they wont stop the behavior.

He doesn't care if it makes you mad. He is going to push and push and see how far you will let it go.

Situations like these rarely have any hope of improving unless the BS is willing to physically separate. Even then...it is a very very rare man who successfully stays "sober" from a porn addiction

Is "being pissed" your consequence for using (note the verb use; it's using--like using heroin) pornography?

I'm just asking. If that's all you can enforce right now, it's fine.

But honestly, I'd save the "getting pissed" energy, conserve it, gather it up and turn it inward. Your words, actions, feeling, and reactions WILL NOT CHANGE HIM. Ever. Consequences aren't designed to control his behavior. They are intended to make your life more manageable. They are intended to empower you to live the best possible light in the face of seemingly insurmountable sickness.

Getting pissed won't do that.

It accomplishes exactly nothing, unless you're channeling it toward constructive change (and by this, I mean change for YOU). How about using it to drive you toward changes that are intended/planned/consciously chosen to improve your life? (Spending a life policing and getting pissed is not the path to happiness.)

Of course, feel your feelings. Of course. But consider stepping out of this crazy-making cycle.

You're not going to change him. No matter how you monitor, how you harangue, how you participate in therapy, how you respond.

For your sanity, stop behaving as though you can. No more talk--just action. Constructive action, for YOU.

If you cannot manage stronger consequences (and trust me, there is NO judgment attached to this; we all need time to absorb, to understand, to plan, to get resources in place--and if you're not ready, it's absolutely fine---you'd be appalled how long I took...and honestly, I needed every minute of every year it took and was not done until I was done)--just step back.

Consider silence. Pull out the 180 and practice it. Know that precisely NONE of us master it quickly; learning to disengage, to surrender what we cannot control, is a process. That's okay--it's just the way it is.

Let him manage himself. You have yourself to manage. And you have a whole new reality to accept--that will take some doing. You have plenty on your plate (and none of it is fair, and lots of it just plain sucks). You can manage it so that you gain glimpses of serenity--and those moments can increase in frequency and grow and change your life for the better--dramatically.

You've given him your requirements. Now sit back. Watch. Observe his actions, over time. Does he work toward them? Does he make progress? Or does he continue to act out? Is he sincere in the desire to build a new, healthy marriage? Or does he demonstrate that he's doing the marital equivalent of suicide by proxy (forcing you to be the one who pulls the

trigger)?

Your marriage is already over. What remains to be seen is whether your addicted husband can work recovery to become a man with whom you can--and want to--build a completely new marriage, from the ground up. (Incidentally, he is facing the same decision; he, too, can decide whether he wants to do the work necessary to build a new marriage with you.)

So take it slow. Observe. Hold back on your participation. You're with a stranger now--so assess him from a place of detachment.

It's hard--trust me, I know how hard it is to learn. I know it's agonizing to learn sordid things about someone you thought you knew as well as you know yourself. I understand how difficult it is to realize you are married to a stranger, someone you might not even go on a first date with now. I know how hard it is to accept that you don't know this man--though he looks a lot like someone you once knew--and have to learn who he is. I know how scary it is to realize but I'm not sure I'll even like who he becomes!

I know how wrenching it is to realize that the man you spent birthdays with--and Christmases and Thanksgivings and anniversaries--and with whom you have a library of remember-whens, a compilation of inside jokes, a scrapbook of smiling memories--was a man wearing a mask.

I get it---really, I do.

But what I get even more is how this kind of ongoing engagement will erode your soul, will tear down your self-worth, will make you question all of your questions, and make you mistrust your own instincts.

This, you can change. You can choose ways of acting that prevent this erosion of your own well-being. You can choose ways of acting that protect your heart as you learn what is important to this stranger with whom you happen to share a marriage, a home, a family--for now, and until he proves himself worthy (or not).

I hope you will do this. I hope you choose to spare yourself some of the damage. You do have power in this. You just have to be careful to identify what you can control.

Surrender. Let go of what you can't control. Focus on the things you can change. It is remarkably freeing.

There's a shitload more to life than your husband and his addictions. Explore that.

[This message edited by solus sto at 10:34 AM, August 15th (Friday)]

^^^^^^^^well, every word solus sto wrote

Gotcha, it truly does take a long time to adjust to your new reality. This is not a weakness on your part.

If a partner/person is healthy, us getting pissed at them generally is a comsequence that works, that wakes that person up, etc.

That's in a healthy marriage.

Your H?

NOT healthy. At all.

So the normal things we think will rouse our spouse into action just won't do it.

Baby steps. I stepped very very carefully and slowly into focusing on myself. Dear God, it was internal war.

But!

It got easier. It really did. And the more I saw my H just honestly didn't give a shit about changing himself to have a better marriage, the easier it got to focus on me.

Patrolling gives you a false sense of control. I'm not saying don't patrol, but do it in awareness...knowing that you don't get control trough finding more proof he's messed up.

Patrol as a means to propel yourself into change. Use what you find as fuel for you to decide you deserve better, and instead of asking for that from HIM, searching for why you do not give this to yourself.

(((((((((Gotcha))))))))

Blah. Solus, you're so right.

In much of this journey so far, I haven't really had bouts of anger like I did this morning. I really need to work on just letting go, and focus on myself rather than him.

It's just hard because I want the marriage to work and I see him and the way he's acting, completely oblivious and in denial... not realizing that what he's doing would've probably worked in the past but won't work in the future, not anymore.

That's part of the letting go gotcha. YOU want the marriage to work but, unless he does too, it won't.

He is in his own fog right now and, I believe, is in a severe form of denial. Denying that he has a problem and, denying you any right to CONTROL him. During this internal storm that is going on inside of him, detach. Do to let yourself get blown away because he doesn't have agrasp on reality.

You have your own trauma to deal with now and, trying to deal with all of his issues right now will most certainly cause you more hurt and harm your heart even more.

DETACH- practice the 180. It's very hard but, try to tell yourself that you are not going to take his hurtful words and/or actions personally. Trust me, we all understand your pain and want to help you get thru this crisis point with the least amount of damage.

I personally will always regret making him leave when I found out. I needed space away from him and his bullshit to process the train wreck that just happened in front of me but, I was trying to be considerate of what he was going thru. Trying to "help" him (as usual). It was all to my own detriment.

Quick question for you all. How would you handle this situation?

My H's first therapy appointment is Monday at 5PM.

He gets off at 5 on Monday, off on Tuesday, returns to work on Wednesday.

This time that he is off work is usually when we have our fights regarding the situation and usually when I tend to get the most upset. I want to avoid this time altogether, so I was planning on going out of town, to the mountains where it is peaceful and I found a beautiful cottage.

I have a 9 month old that I know he would hate not spending time with while he's off of work.

Do I:

1. Tell him I'm going out of town for these days (knowing he's going to fight me tooth and nail on it and try to figure out where it is and come along or show up), and ask him if he wants to have the baby.

2. Tell him I'm going out of town and he's keeping the baby.

3. Don't tell him I'm going and just go with the baby.

4. Tell him I'm going out of town, have the babysitter watching the baby until he gets home, and then oh surprise, here's your kid. You watch him. Be back on Wednesday.

I'm really undecided on whether I want to take the baby or not. I wouldn't mind him there, but it would also be a nice break. Plus, I know that if he has the baby, he won't be up to any shenanigans.

I am so, so sorry. I can relate, as my husband cheated with a prostitute. I wish I had answers, but I don't. I am praying for you, and I share the pain.

Do you have anyone else that could take care of the baby? I would be hesitant to leave the baby in his care under these circumstances. He has already proved that he has very poor coping skills and I think it would be unwise to trust him to care for the baby. You can't be sure that he wouldn't act out regardless of whether he has the child or not.

I vote for you to make your plans and disappear. You need to stop being so considerate of him and focus all of your energy on yourself right now. It's not selfish, it's absolutely imperative to survive having your world, as you knew it, ripped apart. I think a little shock and awe would give him a much needed jolt to show him that you have your own mind and can do what you please without needed his approval or consent. He isn't thinking about you right now, in fact, it almost seems as if he is out to prove to you that you have less importance to him than his porn and acting out.

If you don't have anyone that can babysit, take him with you. Having a calm environment for a few days would be helpful to get your feet back under you.

I hope the cottage has WI FI so you can post to let us know that you are ok. Take care hon

I would not leave a 9-month-old with an active addict of any sort. He's not in the right headspace to care for a baby. You want to believe "no baby, no shenanigans." It would be unwise to do so.

If you need time away, take it-with the baby. If loses a little bit of family time so you can tend to YOUR needs, well, that's the kind of real consequence that may be useful. (I say may because--again--this relies on his desire to change.)

Take the time. Enjoy your baby. If YOU need time alone, consider having grandma or a loving auntie or friend take the baby.

But no, don't leave the babe with a man behaving so irresponsibly.

[This message edited by solus sto at 12:28 AM, August 16th (Saturday)]