SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

*******General reminder*********

Thank you.

Thatguynomore, please talk her out of it. She is saying this and contemplating doing it because she is hurt. And, yes, it is about revenge. She will hate herself afterwards. Plus, there is the risk of STD's.

Yeah, she may also fall in love with the guy, but we all know how that usually ends up, don't we? Please, if you love her, spare her the additional pain of lowering herself to doing something she KNOWS would hurt you - TO HURT YOU.

Yes, WabiSabi, I gasped, too, when I read "polyamorous adventure". It was a gasp of incredulity that someone would characterize what ThatGuy's BW wants to do as some kind of an adventure like touring the Napa Valley wineries. The "Really?" is one of dismay, not attacking.

I don't care much for delicate euphemism's. I feel what ThatGuy's BW wants to do is fuck OM. It should be stated as such, imo, and not as some "adventure".

I'm not angry about being thrown out of the bedroom. I spend most nights in the guest room, where I have been banished since DDay. I'm grateful still be in the house! Sometimes she will allow me to sleep with her upstairs in what was our bedroom but is now her bedroom. We often talk in her room because it's a fairly private place. I included that part about being thrown out to give the reader a visual of how the convo ended, with me being generally ok with having had the convo, painful as it was, and her just being upset.

I think the whole convo highlighted for my BW how grossly unfair it all is. I also imagine it makes her feel sick down inside to even be in a position where considering joining the mad hatters is appealing. Were it not for my A, I don't think she would have ever seriously considered having extramarital sex, let alone propose it to me.

I really appreciate everyone chiming in, offering different perspectives on how to look at and deal with this situation.

I also told my WS shortly after Dday that I wanted to go and have my own A. I think my WS felt he was in the same catch-22 as ThatGuy. He wanted to tell me not to but didn't feel he could. Was I serious? No. I wanted to hurt my WS. I wanted him to get sick with the idea and images of me being with someone else. I wanted him to feel insecure and be scared of losing me. I wanted him to feel helpless. I wanted him to feel just a tiny bit of what I was feeling.

If my WS had responded with "That would be a dealbreaker for me," that would have been the end of us. As others have stated here, a BS who chooses R will already have moments where he/she feels like a chump. But, in my post-Dday hell, if my WS implied that he wouldn't put up with what I've chosen to put up with (and what he was begging me to put up with)? Cue head explosion.

Am I saying a WS doesn't have the right to set boundaries? Of course not. What I'm saying is this situation is so, so difficult--and that's still an understatement. There isn't an easy answer. As others have said, there's a very good chance that your BS, ThatGuy, isn't serious. (I don't think most people who are serious about having a RA ask "permission" or tell their WS beforehand.) Maybe she wants to hurt you. Maybe she's testing you. I think the advice to lay yourself bare to her and to share with her how damaging your actions were is good advice. I think she needs someone other than you to talk to to help her see that this path would lead to more damage for HER. You have every right to tell your BS that you would not tolerate her having an A. She has every right to decide that she won't tolerate what you yourself won't tolerate.

I don't think I can say it any better than Xheart:

If she really wanted to cheat on you, she would have done so long ago and she wouldn’t ask for your permission to do it now. You must realize that although your marriage was as bad for her as it was for you, even under temptation, she correctly chose to stay loyal to you. Have you ever told her how much you appreciate this? Why would you -- it was expected of her as much as it was expected of you?

I don’t believe she wants permission to have extra-marital sex as she wants you to acknowledge that you screwed-up royally. She wants you to acknowledge that you find her beautiful and sexy enough that she could easily have any guy she wants—even a guy who is better than you. She wants you to make it very clear to her that you would be ever-so-grateful should she find it in her heart to forgive you in the least, and if she decides to stay with you, it is only because of her grace for which you are completely undeserving.

Don’t simply say to her, “No, I don’t give you permission”… but tell her, “I know that I don’t deserve to keep you and I beg that you please find it in your heart to not hurt me in the same way I hurt you.” Let her know that cheating on her was the biggest mistake of your life, that she is better than the OW in every single way and that you would do anything to be able to go back in time and make different choices.

Do be completely open and honest with her, answer any and all of her questions thoroughly without delay. Don’t feed her trickle-truth. Give up any sense of privacy…you must be an open book. There are great resources on this site and others as well. Regardless of what others have posted, your BS is not weird or wrong in any to feel the way she does right now. She is in turmoil right now, feeling absolutely powerless in every way and will do anything to feel some sense of control.

(Edited as I may come across as more harsh than I mean to.)

[This message edited by nomadlady at 6:45 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

If my WS had responded with "That would be a dealbreaker for me," I would have said, "Good to know. F*#k you."

How many of us BS's thought, and said, that if our spouses ever cheated on us, we would kick them to the curb, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.00? I know I did! I know many others did, too, and here we are years later and happily reconciled.

When my FWH told me shortly after our d-day in a MC session that he would divorce me if I committed adultery, I was, of course struck with the hypocriticalness of it all. OTOH, how would I have felt if he had said "I would be okay, or at least not divorce you, if you dated and fucked other men" ? I would feel we wanted and expected much different things from our marriage and probably would feel it would be best to end it then.

It is kind of one of those "does these pants make my ass look big" kind of questions.

eta: I think it is kind of hard for anyone to say exactly what they would do in any traumatic situation until they are actually in it. That is why I didn't take what FWH said about divorcing me if I cheated to heart. I understand he really doesn't know exactly what he would do, although divorcing me would certainly be an option.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 5:02 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

Thatguynomore - My experience as a BS has been a bit different than most. My WW cheated on me with OM for over 12 years. After that we had an open M for a bit even though I never knew about OM. Later I found out about her affairs.

The fact that I have had sex with someone else after we have been married probably gave me a slightly different perspective on being a BS from most BS. I never had an issue with mind movies or even really been all that obsessed with the fact that my WW had sex with OM. However, I dont think any of that helped reduce the hurt that I felt with I found out. My lack of focus on the fact that my WW had sex with OM was replaced with focus on the fact that she lied to me for all of the years that she did.

If you let your wife have sex to even the score, I doubt it is going to reduce her hurt. It will only be a small band aide to the bigger problem she is dealing with. She also will still have the moral high ground if you let her have sex with someone else because it really isn't cheating because you are letting it happen. When she asks you if she can, I think you need to say no and explain the pain you are dealing with as a result of your poor decisions. Tell her you can't give her permission to experience the same pain you are feeling on top of the pain she is already experiencing.

ETA: If you let your wife had sex with someone else, I know I wouldn't consider her a madhatter. Others may disagree on the use of the term but the issues that madhatters deal with are not the same as those from an open M.

[This message edited by ReunitePangea at 5:23 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

OMG. I'm disgusted with where this thread has gone. I was a BS in my first marriage and never fully dealt with:

a. My FOO issues

b. The betrayal from my "first"

c. The betrayal from my first xWH

d. The betrayal from dating a con-artist right after my divorce from my first xWH

These things lead to WW thinking. TRUST ME. I AM LIVING PROOF.

Just because you are a BS does not mean that you are NOT broken. If you don't deal with your pain, you very much CAN be.

I was a ticking time bomb for my BS. I never dealt with any of my pain. I thought I had managed it and he was my "knight and shinning armor."

No offense, but here are the cliff notes:

The only knight in shinning armor is YOURSELF.

I beg anyone reading this thread that think it's ok fora BS to go outside their marriage vows to PLEASE take a step back and start working on yourself.

DO NOT be like me.

Please. Do not go down the path I did. You deserve more than becoming as low as your WH or WW.

[This message edited by wheredoigo at 5:33 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

A reminder for all of the BS's posting on this thread:

Wayward is the forum for Waywards to work out their feelings, not for BS's to bicker and to tell Waywards how to feel. If you can't post respectfully, step away from the thread, or you will be removed

But, in my post-Dday hell, if my WS implied that he wouldn't put up with what I've chosen to put up with (and what he was begging me to put up with)? Cue head explosion.

That guy no more::

I think the above quote I excerpted from another posting, may sum up neatly what your wife is going through.

Some BS would never consider requesting a pass for an affair, but the fact is your wife has.

What does it mean? Only she knows for sure.

That's why teasing apart the true reasons she has made this request is the best approach.

Personally, having had feeling similar to those your wife expressed, I think her feeling will pass.

But, I do agree with those who told you to perhaps apprise her of the fact that you CAN NOT give her permission but please do not threaten to divorce her, if she does choose that path.

My husband did that and that is why, although I stay for the children, I am planning to eventually divorce him. Unless and until, he finally shows me that he gets it.

I never had an issue with mind movies or even really been all that obsessed with the fact that my WW had sex with OM. However, I dont think any of that helped reduce the hurt that I felt with I found out. My lack of focus on the fact that my WW had sex with OM was replaced with focus on the fact that she lied to me for all of the years that she did.

I resonate with this posters above quoted thought.

For me, it was all the lying and deception and secret theft of marital assets, that hurt the most

Although I never entertained the thought of polyamory or an open marriage while married, I did have relationships prior to marriage.

So, the sex aspect, at least for me, I kind of relegate to the same place as we both relegate each others prior sexual relationships.

It was the loss of the sense of specialness, that the lying, and deception caused that hurt the most.

The fact that my wayward was lying to me while being honest with the OW and treating her more special than he was treating me. That is what hurt, me the most.

I am sure your wife has her own particular reasons for being upset and those reason are important to tease out of her likely confused thoughts.

Just some thoughts. Take what you resonate with and please feel free to disregard the rest.

[This message edited by seethelight at 10:07 AM, September 9th (Tuesday)]

My BW said last night that I will never know the pain that she is going through, and furthermore I'm not willing to subject myself to it. By taking the moral high road, she gets to "eat the shit sandwich" while I get off scot-free. While we weren't talking specifically about this topic, it seems to me that she is talking about the fundamental unfairness that a BS faces when choosing to stay with a WS, and that her request for permission to have extramarital sex is very much about evening the score. She is very hurt and very angry, and wants me to feel this too. She feels that I'm just tolerating her pain. By her having extramarital sex, she believes that I will have to suffer at least some of the pain that she is experiencing. It also seems to me that getting permission, in her mind, will alleviate the guilt she might have from having extramarital sex. BW is so hurt and angry that she hardly cares about the consequences.

BW is so hurt and angry that she hardly cares about the consequences.

and this is why this is a bad idea. She's not thinking coherently. I see you guys have 4 kids - really, she wants to parent with you when you're BOTH feeling the pain of being a BS AND a WS? How good of a parent do you guys think you'll be when you're both feeling like shit?

I've been there. IT nearly destroyed us - individually. It didn't really matter what happened in our marriage. The fact that we had affairs damaged us personally so that we both considered suicide.

[This message edited by rachelc at 11:32 AM, September 9th (Tuesday)]

In my fog and general fuckedupness after DDay I told BH he should have sex with someone else. So he did. He has a ONS on a business trip.

Now that we are in R, I am 100% out of that horrible fog we have a situation where I can not ever say anything about that ONS, even though it now bothers me as 1) I told him to do it and 2) I did worse. It doesn't help R.

BH did it because he wanted to have the fun and excitement of sex with someone else but also to see if I cared and if I really loved him.

This is why I think you really have to make it clear to your BW that you cannot stop her and you understand you have done the same thing and worse, but you will be very hurt because you love her. And it will do no good for your R. Really tell her how you feel, show her that you care about her.

My BW said last night that I will never know the pain that she is going through, and furthermore I'm not willing to subject myself to it.

Thatguynomore:

I think she gave you the reason right in the above quote for why she wants permission to have a polyamourous adventure of her own....

Her reason is she wants to know that you would also bear the pain of the affair, yet take her back and love her as you expect her to do after your "polyamorous adventure."

What is it specifically that bothers you most were she to have sex with someone other than you?

Are you afraid of STDs?

Are you afraid she will fall in love?

Are you afraid she will like the sex better?

In this case, because she is asking permission, you will not be blindsided and not have to deal with the feeling of being lied to and made a fool of.

Personally, after both of us being cleared for STDs, the fact that my husband was willing to so easily lie to me and in essence make of fool of me, bothered me more than the idea of him actually having sex with someone else.

In the end though, whatever you think, IMO, and as others have stated, she is saying to you that you are expecting something of her that you would not be willing to do.

She is also saying that she would not be comfortable telling you lies in order to satisfy this desire.

So, again, she is still communicating.

You want her to love you large enough to forgive your outside sexual foray, but in her mind it appears you don't love her enough to forgive her outside sexual experience.

Would her polyamorous foray, be a deal breaker for you?

If so, that's okay, but you need to tell her that it will be a deal breaker, and be prepared to explain why.

What would you do, if she did it anyway?

From my perspective and due to my own experience, and having gone through all the same emotions and feelings your wife is expressing, my thought is that she is thinking that you don't love her enough to forgive her, if she had an outside sexual relationship. Yet, you expect her to forgive you.

I don't know how to solve this for you. This feeling for me passed because I realized the experience would not solve the issues the affair created.

I hope it passes for your wife, too.

I am a BS, 3 plus years after DD.

I have lived what your BS is going through.

In my experience, 20 year marriage shot in the head by my WW, nothing can match what you did, and you probably know that. In my case, my WW killed a piece of me. Dead, gone, gone. Our marriage and family, my pride and joy, was dead and gone. No pain I could ever inflict on my WW could ever match what I went through, no matter what I did. NOTHING.

There is no way to inflict the pain of killing a 20 year marriage on a BS, because it's impossible to have two, 20 year, first marriages. The priceless work of 20 years of loyal marriage cannot be replaced in a single human life.

As a BS, I sought validation, acceptance, the positive knowledge that I could be wanted again. My WW and I were best friends and passionate lovers, but her A and the rejection that her A gave me was the ultimate rejection that I will never forget, and from which I will never recover.

To this day, I have zero idea how a BS can ever recover the validation that their original marriage gave them. I believe that is what your BS is seeking - that someone else could find her sexy, desirable, wanted. And frankly, the opinion of the WS is irrelevant, because they are the original cause of the need to be wanted.

While part of her may want you to hurt, if she is like me, there is nothing she could do to you to match what she has endured.

I just want to be whole again. She just wants to be whole again. Whether we ever find a way to be whole again, I don't know. She told you she wants to try the direct approach. It may help, it may not, but my heart goes out to her because I doubt it will make her whole.

We are in "reconciliation" which I put in quotes, because really we are not. Our original relationship is long buried. Now, we are building a relationship, we are legally married, and we are trying to achieve a new marriage to support our children, ourselves, and our vows. It will never be what I had, but maybe it will be enough.

While the fireworks are going off overhead, ThatGuyNoMore, original poster, is as calm as ever.

ThatGuyNoMore, I think you have done a good job communicating and getting a sense of what your BW is feeling. Way to listen.

I must say that your BW does have a good handle on how outrageously unfair the whole thing is. Reading your passing along her observations saw my head nodding up and down.

It is interesting to see it all laid out in the open for you to see: that she wants you to 'feel' what she does - the pain - while she gets to 'feel' what you did in the A.

For me, landing some other woman to feel 'good' or 'better' would have nothing to do with WW. It would be about dealing with emasculation.

I think the more you keep talking the less of a chance that she will be doing some random fucking.

I must admit that a few times early on I had thought that I should go and fuck some guy just to show my FWH what it felt like. These were fleeting thoughts because when I really thought of my FWH feeling the kind of pain I am/was in, it broke my heart. I love my FWH. I would never want to cause him the kind of emotional pain I was in. Thinking of him on the floor in the fetal position sobbing his eyes out chokes me up as I type this.

I don't know what the definition of "love" is to many of you but, for me, it has nothing to do with inflicting pain upon my spouse. I feel there is no place in a loving marriage for a score card or evening the playing field. There is no place in a loving marriage for getting inappropriate validation from outside sources. There is no place in a loving marriage for causing intentional pain, with malice aforethought.

To me love means dying unto oneself. It means making my spouse's happiness, comfort, safety, wants and needs my #1 priority. I feel many should really examine what "love" means to you.

ThatGuy, it is great that you and your BW continue to discuss and examine this issue. It seems you are both being honest and open with your feelings. However, if your BW continues to focus on "fairness" I have to seriously wonder if you have a real chance on healing your marriage. Yes, we have to accept and eat the shit sandwich. It is an ugly and simple truth. We have to accept that there will never be nor can there be any fairness to our WS's betraying us. It was a giant step in my personal healing and the healing of our marriage when I was able to accept that.

eta: to fix a sentence

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:31 PM, September 9th (Tuesday)]

There is no way that it's ever going to be fair. There's no way I'm ever going to hurt as much as she does, not because I don't care, but because I recognize that a BS's pain is worse by definition: the element of betrayal, the surprise of DDay, the anguish of realizing your M isn't what you thought it was, and your WS has been lying to you all this time.

There is no way that it's ever going to be fair. There's no way I'm ever going to hurt as much as she does, not because I don't care, but because I recognize that a BS's pain is worse by definition: the element of betrayal, the surprise of DDay, the anguish of realizing your M isn't what you thought it was, and your WS has been lying to you all this time.

You are absolutely correct. This is something she's going to have to eventually find a way to live with if the two of you stay together. It just is. And obviously, this is where her struggle is.

There is no way to make the dynamics more fair to her. Her having an affair will not even the score or even make it more balanced. As someone else mentioned, she's not able to think rationally about this right now because of her pain. She's desperate for the pain to stop and she's grasping at straws with this.

I think most betrayeds consider having an affair of their own for all the reasons your wife has given. But most of them decide it not the way, it's not the solution to their problems.

It will not solve the disparity problem. There is no solution for it. It doesn't get evened out, it will always be unfair to her. Always.

She's got to find a way to accept that if you stay together because nothing anybody does will change that.

I am thankful for how my wh has changed and grown. I am glad he is, for the first time in his life, finally becoming comfortable and accepting of himself. That's a beautiful thing, but it came at my expense. That's something that never should have happened, but it did. Nothing either one of us does, will change that.

It helps that he is showing me how much he loves me by making the most of this situation. He's taking this opportunity to better himself instead of trying to continue to deny and avoid his issues. It does help, but it never eliminates the disparity in fairness. It just doesn't.

And finding a way to live with it doesn't mean she has to shut up about it. She needs to express herself and you validating her feelings helps. Ultimately, it comes down to an acceptance of it within herself. Nobody can talk her into it, nobody can solve it for her, not even herself. Nothing she does will alleviate that loss of fairness.

Just keep your communication open, keep supporting her, keep expressing how sorry you are for what you've put her through, and keep working hard on yourself to make it not be all for naught.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 8:20 AM, September 10th (Wednesday)]

Long post from my BW, who dared me to submit this unedited.

I don’t post on the Wayward forum. It usually makes me sick and angry when I come here. However, I have read everything our fellow SI-ers have said, and what they have said about me. And here is what I would like to say, and to know:

All you people who are saying I should forgive TGNM for his massive betrayal, but that it would be wrong for me to betray him: how do you arrive at that, exactly? HE is simply a sad, broken human being who made a “mistake,” while I am wicked, vengeful bitch for doing the same thing? HE should be allowed to dish out betrayal and damage with no consequences, but should not be subjected to the same treatment he blithely inflicted on me? WHY is the BS expected to eat the giant, steaming mound of shit while the WS gets a pass? Are we saying that R necessitates selling your soul and all your self-respect? Because that’s how it sounds to me. D or R, either way, I choke down sickening consequences, and all TGMN has to do is feel a little guilty and mouth the right words. Is that it? Whatever he may tell you here, he is not doing the work of R. He reads, yes, he posts on SI, he goes to IC and MC. He endures my grief. But mostly he simply sits around waiting for me to “get over it.”

I would never in a million years have thought about being with another man. I loved my H and my M. But my M turned out to be just a figment of my imagination. I was in it all alone. And my WH did not love me, at least not enough to be faithful or honest or to protect me from death and disease and humiliation and shame. So to those suggesting he “protect” me from myself… That’s laughable. TGNM only protects himself.

I hear you all that a RA could be the end of my marriage, but at this point I don’t give a damn. TGNM has already put a bullet right through the heart of our union, and it is dead, never to rise again. What we are trying to decide is whether it might be possible to build a new marriage on the ashes of the old one. Given that TGNM cheated on me for 15 of our 23 years together, with 10 different people, I’m not giving a “new” marriage great odds. I’m just holding my breath until the other shoe drops, when he cheats on me again. And then I will leave.

In the meanwhile, I have asked him for permission to experiment, yes, because unlike him, I am not a liar and am not willing to do it behind his back and lie to his face. I have absolutely NO freaking clue what my motivation is. I am hurt. I am angry. I have been rejected both personally and sexually, and I feel as ugly and unwanted and sad as it is possible to feel. I want to feel attractive again. I want someone to think I am wonderful. I want to be with someone without having actual naked photos of their previous lover in my head. But I want to do all that with WH as my Plan B, just as I was his Plan B for so many years. And I want him to volunteer for it.

I want him to volunteer to stand in my shoes. I want him to volunteer for a tiny fraction of what I have been through. I want him to show me that he is willing to sacrifice something to help make me whole again. But he isn’t. His answer to all of this is like Sister Milkshake’s: I should be a doormat, swallow down the giant shit sandwich, and not bother him with all this uncomfortable talk of “fairness.”

TGNM has described to me the amazing personal growth he experienced as a result of his As. He spent 15 years “trying on” a variety of other bodies, other styles, other flavors, while I unwittingly stuck with my “one and only.” He spent nearly 7 of those years in an LTA, meeting with OW daily, feeling the butterflies of new love, indulging every sexual fantasy he ever had (things that I would willingly have explored with him had he given me the opportunity). He told me later, explicitly, that it was the “best sex he ever had or ever will.”

Now that I found out about and interrupted his playtime, am I supposed to be grateful to him for “choosing me,” and to content myself with a lifetime of being sexual second fiddle? Why am I not entitled to the same adventures and choices that TGMN had? Maybe as some of you have suggested, I will find sex more pleasurable with someone else. Maybe I will even be able to love again. Or maybe, like TGNM, I will decide this M is what I want in the end. But I’ve been given no choices, while he has had many, at my expense. I think it’s my turn to have the choices.

FWIW, WabiSabi, your words made me cry. That is exactly how I feel: shredded and broken beyond recognition. Yes, I am in IC and am working hard to put myself back together, one tiny piece at a time. But some of my original pieces are gone and won’t ever be recovered. Others are too destroyed to ever be of use. Whatever new human being I recreate out of the wreckage TGNM left is going to look like cubist art or Frankenstein’s monster, all twisted and misshapen.

TGNM is right, it does make me feel sick to be in a place where being a madhatter looks like a better choice than simply being a chump and a loser. But it’s where I am. It CAN’T get any worse than this. I CAN’T feel any more pain than I am already in. Yes, my thinking is broken and yes, I am unhealthy. HOW COULD I NOT BE, GIVEN THAT I WAS HIT BY A TRAIN 6 MONTHS AGO?! That said, I won’t “cheat” (God, how I hate that word!) and I won’t lie, and I won’t have a secret A. If TGNM says sex with someone else would be a dealbreaker for him, I will more seriously consider D because YES, it would make him an unbearable hypocrite. Or maybe I’ll just roll over and become that pathetic doormat.