SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The harm caused to the BS comes from the lies and deceit not the sex.

very much disagree with this. I'm sure my BS's pain comes from the fact that I had sex. My lies weren't dealbreakers. The sex sure as hell was.

[This message edited by rachelc at 8:10 AM, September 7th (Sunday)]

I'm sure my BS's pain comes from the fact that I had sex.

Unless you had a mutually agreed upon open relationship.

Is it possible she just wants to see you fight for her?

My WH and I have had what-if conversations and when I what-if myself with another man, what I want to hear is, "I wouldn't want you with another man!" I want him to be in this enough to not want me off with another guy. In a twisted way, it shows he wants me and wants us to be exclusive even if he wasn't.

So, I would suggest telling her that you know you can't control her but you wouldn't want her to. Tell her how imagining her with another man makes you feel. Tell her you empathize with how she's feeling but that you really want to be focusing in rebuilding your bond together. Ask her what more you two can be doing. Step up your attempts to make her feel desired. Tell her how sorry you are to have our her in a place where she feels this crummy about herself. Apologize for taking that away.

I think it might be a cry for attention, empathy, and a need for a bond. Perhaps to boost her self esteem. Does she have an IC?

Telling her fine, go ahead will likely make her feel like you don't care.

Hi, BS here. Maybe I'm not as "open minded" as others but this way of thinking is messed up. You've obviously made it clear that you are remorseful and want to improve the marriage. Her desire to go screw around does not show that she wants the same thing. Maybe she's just hurt and is wanting to get a reaction from you. But if she's serious I would say it's the worst idea I've ever heard and I would ask her if she truly wants to be in a healthy marriage with you.

[This message edited by Popper at 9:08 AM, September 7th (Sunday)]

As I can tell from a BW's view, I also had rough times in my marriage and some good opportunities and yet I didn't cheat because I thought no, I love my man, he loves me, he's faithful, I'm too.

But now... you see it's all different. He doesn't love me as I thought he did and he cheated.

After DD I wanted to get revenge ASAP, but then I thought, no, let's wait, let's pull myself together, let's see.

One year after DD I don't want revenge, but IF something good presents itself in a few months or years I might consider it.

Cheating alters a person and a marriage forever.

If you do not want to give permission say no. I did. My xSO and I discussed having a threesome after my confession. We researched girls and I was even a bit happy at the time because if this is what he needed I'd give it to him. Then we met up with a girl and she loved us as a couple and it became a real thing. I told him the next day I could not do it. I could not watch or even know he had sex with someone else and keep it together. That's the day I truly got it completely and started making changes. You can say no and sshe can get mad but dont say yes out of guilt if it goes against what you truly want.

Is it possible she just wants to see you fight for her?

This - and everything else Hurtbuthopeful said - is exactly the first thought that came to my mind. I know if I said I wanted to be with another man to my H I would be really really wanting to hurt him an/or really really wanting him to fight for me. For me, it would be a way of asking if he was able to truly feel what it feels like to be in my shoes. I would be essentially asking if he was able to comprehend the unfairness of his actions. And, I would certainly be fishing for him to assure me that I am desired by him and that exclusivity was something he took away from our marriage but that he is committed to exclusivity forever more. But that is just me, your wife may be thinking something entirely different.

[This message edited by lilylilith at 11:22 AM, September 7th (Sunday)]

I also wonder if this is a test for you in a way, do you want her enough and feel she is special enough to say no? Do you desire her? The way she phrased it sounds like a plea for validation, proof that she is desirable to you, proof that you care about her enough you wouldnt be ok sharing.

I could be totally off, though

Ah late on that thought, hurting and lily got it

This breaks my heart. I read your post and went emotionally nuts. I had to walk away and pace through the house calming myself before I responded. My WH walked in the door from running and he was alarmed when he saw my distress. I had him read your post and then I started crying because I feel your BW's pain soooooo deeply. I have been there!! This is her insanity speaking. Our shock, trauma, and emotional devastation are so completely shattering that for a time (it feels like forever) we just free float from any of the anchors we used to have. It's like the WS takes giant razor blades or machetes, whatever, to the essence of who we are as human beings and slices it up into something unrecognizable even to us. We lose perspective. We have confusion. The only known we have left to us is the monster of betrayal and treachery that is so horrific we're left in a state of deep shock. We were attacked and we didn't even see it coming. I hope for your wife's soul she doesn't do this. I went through a similar phase, envisioning deploying the same nuclear arsenal on my WH's heart and soul that he did to mine. It's rage over the enormity of the unfairness and there isn't enough punishment in the universe to make right what was done. But we exhaust ourselves searching every corner of humanity for that retribution, anyway. It doesn't exist. As my therapist so beautifully told me the other day. The Old Testament (Fire and Brimstone) was replaced with the New Testament (love and forgiveness), but the only way to get there for our own sanity and healing is to plow through hell first. Your W is plowing through hell.

This is really about talking your wife down from the ledge. This isn't about you as much as it is about her. If she wouldn't have gone outside the marriage before then this is dangerous territory for her soul. I don't mean sin and heaven and all of that. I mean living with herself and holding onto her integrity and her identity as the same person with the same morals she had before. I think it's a greater punishment to the WS to have to look at the BS for the rest of their lives and know that the spouse was fiercely loyal through thick and thin and they weren't. Revenge is so dark and scary. Can you tell your W that you will do ANYTHING to help her heal from your infidelity. Anything. And you will stay with her through all forms of hell that your actions have launched your M and family into. And that includes any horrible choices she's making now out of insanity and pain. But, please, for the preservation of her own soul ask her to wait one year (better two) and find other outlets for her rage and need for revenge in the meantime until she can think and feel more clearly. What she is contemplating is so irreversible. I'm afraid for your wife.

I know if I said I wanted to be with another man to my H I would be really really wanting to hurt him an/or really really wanting him to fight for me. For me, it would be a way of asking if he was able to truly feel what it feels like to be in my shoes. I would be essentially asking if he was able to comprehend the unfairness of his actions.

This. I asked my WW for the same thing after DDay and this was my motive. Not very mature, I know, but I wanted to see her really think about what it would be like to stand where I was standing. I reality, I knew that the guilt would have eaten me alive and it's not a threat I would have followed through on.

You've had lots of good advise. At the end of the day you can't control what she does whether you give her permission or not. You can tell her how you'll feel about it, and you can ask her if she really wants to compromise herself - if she'd really, really want to trade places with you.

I know that for me, the excitement, the fun, the sex, would not be enough for me to compensate for having to know that I betrayed my spouse and my marriage. As much as I'm hurting, I wouldn't trade places with WW. Try get her to really consider what she's asking for.

[This message edited by drownedman at 2:37 PM, September 7th (Sunday)]

No stop sign so I will post.

I proposed this to my WH last year. He did not want to have sex with me (and we had not had sex for over 7 years at that point - that had not been my choice). He said "We may as well get a divorce if that is what you want." In my 1/2 sane mind 4 months off of DD, it made perfect sense to me...at least I'd be honest about it. I think part of my reasoning was that I wanted to show him that none of his rationalizations about the affair made any sense, that at least I was morally superior by being honest. I wanted to shock him. I think I did.

Another part of me wanted to feel desirable to someone again. While this is a natural need for an adult, I think I recognize I was in no shape whatsoever for entertaining something like that. I've never been one for casual sex in the first place and I think it just would have messed with my mind more if I'd gone through with it.

Probably not a good idea. But also the bottom line is you do not get to control her.

I think Melian40 is right...infidelity changes a marriage forever. You realize that ANYONE is capable of it given the right conditions, you realize that no one is perfect and you realize we are all human...including yourself. But it's important to just make sure you keep up the appropriate boundaries and live an honest life. I think the only thing worse than being a BS is knowing how it feels to be a BS and inflicting that on someone else regardless if they did it to you first. I think it would actually be quite painful for both people in the couple because you would be reliving a lot of pain.

[This message edited by womaninflux at 2:55 PM, September 7th (Sunday)]

I agree with the others in that this may be a test, or that she needs you to fight for her. Regardless, she will not feel better doing this and it will solve nothing.

I think I even mentioned to my WH that I should do what he did, really just to make him mad (I was angry). He told me me to do it, if it would help. That response only hurt and made me more angry. But then again, my WH is a jackass.

I really appreciate everyone's perspective. This has helped me a lot, and if my BW reads this, maybe it will help her too.

Yes, she is in counseling. I do not know if she has discussed this desire with her counselor, SI friends, or anyone else.

Yes, she may be testing me, but in a different sort of way. She has called herself a coward for not being able to file for D herself. Many times she has baited me, trying to get me to say I want a D, which I never have nor will I. She likened it to "suicide by cop:" she couldn't bring herself to pull the trigger, metaphorically speaking, but by threatening a police officer leaving him no choice but to shoot her in self-defense, the desired result happens. In this scenario, I am the cop and she's trying to get me to kill the marriage by D'ing her. Perhaps underneath all the rationalizations she presented for having extramarital sex she is trying to find my breaking point.

Then it does sound like she is having her own shame and self esteem crisis. Encourage her to discuss this with her therapist. It's not just cowardly, it's also abusive. You can't fix this in her.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 8:42 PM, September 7th (Sunday)]

Perhaps underneath all the rationalizations she presented for having extramarital sex she is trying to find my breaking point.

She's already broken, so she probably wants to break you even worse. This is such a death spiral for the both of you and your children will be right behind you. It's out of control madness.

One other thought: we are 6 months since DDay. From what I've read, this is about the time when BS's typically go through a particularly angry phase. That may part of it--wanting me to really feel the pain she is going through by turning the tables. I can't say I blame her for feeling that way. What I did to her was awful, and it is by her grace that I am with her still.

That guy no more:

I haven't read the other posts.

But, IMO, she wants to see if her having sex with someone else would be a deal breaker for you.

If it is, than perhaps she won't be able to justify staying in the marriage.

Because if it's a deal breaker for you, someone who already had an affair, then she will assume that you think she is a chump for staying with you.

Likely she already feels like a chump for staying.

So, from my perspective, I think you need to give her permission. If she does it, you need to forgive her and give her a second chance.

Otherwise, she will never be able to forgive herself for staying with you.

I think your staying with her, even if she does decide to take her free sex pass card and cash it in, will prove to her that you love her.

I have read on other forums where people say that having the loyal spouse have sex with someone else, finally makes them fully comprehend what the loyal spouse was going through on dday.

With that said, there's always a chance for an STD and that part really turns me off to having a revenge affair.

Still, from and emotional perspective, I truly do understand where your wife is coming from, even though the thought of a revenge affair turns me off.

I think from your perspective, perhaps you are afraid she might like the sex too much and decide to leave for good.

So, I get your perspective, too.

Still, I think giving her permission to do so, while assuring her you will forgive her, will give her back control, and at that point she may no longer need to cash in her free pass.

My spouse has already told me that if I ever had a revenge affair, he would divorce immediately.

I find that comment insulting given that he had an LTA.

And, that is why, although staying for the children, I leave the door to divorce wide open and guilt free, at this point.

Frayedknot:

I agree with you 100 percent.

Most of the pain of an Affair comes from being blindsided and all the lies, deceit and gaslighting that was engaged in by a once trusted spouse during the affair.

Really, the sex aspect bothers me the least. It's mainly the disrespect of the lying and hiding bank accoutns and credit cards, computers and phones, to facilitate his affair.

All the while he looked me in the eye and swore he would never cheat on me.

So, IMO, I agree that it's also not really an affair, it's an open relationship. The BS is still being open and honest about their needs rather than lying and hiding.

It also gives the spouse the opportunity to decide if a polyamorous situation is a deal breaker.

At least when a person asks for permission to have a revenge affair, at least they are still being honest and the spouse will not be blindsided by the polyamorous situation.

My husband's cheating did not give me the opportunity to decide to leave first.

If she does it, you need to forgive her and give her a second chance.

Otherwise, she will never be able to forgive herself for staying with you.

I will never understand this viewpoint. So, if my husband buys a 50k car I need one too? This tit for tat stuff is not healthy for a relationship.

Forgive herself for staying with him? She better be sure her values include justifying behavior and getting even with people, or else she'll betray herself.

Using this logic I guess I'm "owed" an affair and hubby better forgive me. Yeah, that'll help us.

[This message edited by rachelc at 10:22 AM, September 8th (Monday)]