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I think you and your BS should read in the Madhatters section of "I can Relate".

Extramarital sex for her will not even the score in your marriage. It will bring on its own set of problems and damage.

There will be damage to your wife. She will be betraying HERSELF as well as you if she goes through with this.

So, from my perspective, I think you need to give her permission. If she does it, you need to forgive her and give her a second chance.

Otherwise, she will never be able to forgive herself for staying with you.

I think your staying with her, even if she does decide to take her free sex pass card and cash it in, will prove to her that you love her.

This is the craziest shit I've ever read from a BS on this site and I've been here for 5 years. WOW. I seem some serious projection going on in this one quote. SMH.

This is the craziest shit I've ever read from a BS on this site and I've been here for 5 years. WOW. I seem some serious projection going on in this one quote. SMH.

Misses Jai:

That is truly rude.

Please be respectful of other opinions.

BTW: I was not responding to you. I was responding to the person who started the thread and frayed Knot.

Lastly ALL the responses likely contain some bit of projection of one's own feelings.

[This message edited by seethelight at 10:39 AM, September 8th (Monday)]

This is the craziest shit I've ever read from a BS on this site and I've been here for 5 years.

I'm saying this as respectfully as I can. First of all, you're a former wayward and you're five years out. That doesn't mean you don't have insight, but it does seem a bit harsh for you to be telling a betrayed human being that what she feels is crazy shit. It is completely common for a freshly betrayed spouse (6 months is a horrible time) to go through suicidal thoughts, stop eating, stop functioning, stop living, or function through a filter of chaos and acute mental disease. What the waywards do in the first place is crazy shit, so it's pure logic that we follow with crazy shit. I think what seethelight said can be accurate for a lot of betrayeds. Is it right? No. That's why we're all here worried about thatguynomore's devastated wife. Because we're removed enough to see it for what it is and we all feel compassion for them. For both of them. And I feel compassion for seethelight and what she wrote about her WH telling her he would divorce her if she did to him what he did to her. That seems cruel to me. It's swirling and spiraling chaos and destruction. It's heart breaking, because it shouldn't be this way. We should all be faithful, loving, healthy, and focused on being a solid happy family. But, instead, we're all dealing with a giant pile of shit. And it's all crazy.

So, from my perspective, I think you need to give her permission. If she does it, you need to forgive her and give her a second chance.

Otherwise, she will never be able to forgive herself for staying with you.

I think your staying with her, even if she does decide to take her free sex pass card and cash it in, will prove to her that you love her.

Ok I'm a BS and I will say it. This is terrible advice. It's manipulative and shows just how broken a BS can be themselves without having cheated. It's truly a very unhealthy suggestion at its best. As I stated earlier, this is abusive.

You absolutely have a right to set boundaries for yourself. The suggestion that you just take whatever she dishes out and that you don't love her if you refuse, doesn't come from a place of healing, it comes from a place of very unhealthy thinking. Similar to what your wife is displaying.

MissesJai has a right to say what she thinks of the advice too. As a WS she doesn't have to accept all things said by a BS. This is suppose to be a place for support and guidance and that includes calling out crappy advice. Her not agreeing with it doesn't make her response disrespectful. The advice stinks.

I think it's harmful advice for someone with a history of dancing around existing issues (a ws). You don't repair a damaged relationship with more damage and manipulation. That makes no sense at all. The most harmful thing this man can do with what his BS has told him is to buy the load of bull she is serving up. People encouraging him to do so, aren't helping, they are preying on his guilt for his actions and his love for his wife, just like his wife is.

Now back to your wife.

Of course BS's go through an angry phase and some certainly may want to make the ws hurt. But that doesn't seem to be the source of her motives.

From what you posted her focus is on how to be forced to be apart from you and this situation because she can't do it herself. That sounds like much bigger problems than just being angry and possibly vengeful. This shows she likely has as much self work to do as you have. Strongly encourage her to address this with her therapist.

Your R will only be as strong as your weakest link. It might be apples vs oranges but both of you need help. Just as she can't resolve the issues that led to your cheating, you can't resolve hers. She has to want to be a better person. Sometimes being the betrayed gives people the idea that they can be the perpetual victim. That mindset will keep any attempts at R from progressing.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 11:27 AM, September 8th (Monday)]

On the one hand, I want to be open-minded and supportive of her needs. I get the "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" mentality. When we have had sex post-DDay, it's been emotionally conflicting for her; NSA sex wouldn't have those emotions, so she might be able to let go and enjoy sex a whole lot more.

Thatguy:

I was really amazed to read those words. They sound so intellectual and evolved.

So in your deepest and most honest thoughts you think some positive may come out of her polyamorous encounter. Right?

What is it that you fear the most were she to indulge in this need she has so honestly expressed to you?

What is it that threatens you the most about?

When you understand that, and truly feel it, then perhaps you can trade places with her emotionally.

Have you expressed why you are opposed to her polyamorous adventure?

Maybe that will help.

I agree with those who have prior stated that her request is not really a revenge affair, it is an open honest request to experience someone else sexually outside the marriage in order to rebuild her lost self esteem.

So it might help things, if you try to keep that perspective in mind, during discussions.

Have you two discussed this in MC?

If she really wanted to cheat on you, she would have done so long ago and she wouldn’t ask for your permission to do it now. You must realize that although your marriage was as bad for her as it was for you, even under temptation, she correctly chose to stay loyal to you. Have you ever told her how much you appreciate this? Why would you -- it was expected of her as much as it was expected of you?

If you truly want her to forgive you, ask yourself if you would be willing to forgive her if the shoe were on the other foot? Consider Eleanor Roosevelt’s words, “It is not fair to ask of others what you are not willing to do yourself.” Why should she be expected to suffer much more than you could ever imagine because of selfish decisions you made without her permission? I sincerely hope that you do not feel superior to her.

I don’t believe she wants permission to have extra-marital sex as she wants you to acknowledge that you screwed-up royally. She wants you to acknowledge that you find her beautiful and sexy enough that she could easily have any guy she wants—even a guy who is better than you. She wants you to make it very clear to her that you would be ever-so-grateful should she find it in her heart to forgive you in the least, and if she decides to stay with you, it is only because of her grace for which you are completely undeserving.

Don’t simply say to her, “No, I don’t give you permission”… but tell her, “I know that I don’t deserve to keep you and I beg that you please find it in your heart to not hurt me in the same way I hurt you.” Let her know that cheating on her was the biggest mistake of your life, that she is better than the OW in every single way and that you would do anything to be able to go back in time and make different choices.

Do be completely open and honest with her, answer any and all of her questions thoroughly without delay. Don’t feed her trickle-truth. Give up any sense of privacy…you must be an open book. There are great resources on this site and others as well. Regardless of what others have posted, your BS is not weird or wrong in any to feel the way she does right now. She is in turmoil right now, feeling absolutely powerless in every way and will do anything to feel some sense of control.

The best thing you can do is to take your lumps, show her how much you care about her and that you are committed to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING it takes to heal your relationship—because you love her and want to rebuild a happy home based on trust and equality.

Sex outside the marriage is unlikely to build her self esteem in the end. Don't many Waywards have affairs for the same reason? And in the end, what does it actually do? It tears you down bc you realize how low you went.

When it comes down to it, marriage and reconciliation in about honesty and empathy. Be empathetic but honest. If you don't want her to, then say so. And as a BS, I would really want you to draw those boundaries. Show me you care.

It's not hypocritical. Is a parent who gets hooked on heroine , gets clean and then tells their child not to do it bc it's so awful--are they a hypocrite? No, they have learned a lesson and are passing it on. Now, you'd be a hypocrite if you were in an active A and told her no. But that isn't the case.

Most of the pain of an Affair comes from being blindsided and all the lies, deceit and gaslighting that was engaged in by a once trusted spouse during the affair.

I am pretty sure most of the pain, for me, comes from my FWH fucking OW for 4 or so years.

I have to agree with MissJai that doesn't seem like sane advice to give someone.

Have you expressed why you are opposed to her polyamorous adventure?

Really? That is how you want to explain it, a polyamorous adventure? Ugh! Saying it is a polyamorous adventure doesn't make it pretty, nice, intellectual or evolved. It is fucking someone else outside your marriage to hurt, "even" a score, or to get outside the marriage validation. All rather pathetic. If one is to have an "open marriage" this is the wrong way to go about it.

ETA:

Sometimes being the betrayed gives people the idea that they can be the perpetual victim. That mindset will keep any attempts at R from progressing.

That is gold, BtraydWife. Truth!

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:02 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

I do think I surprised her by taking her request seriously. I didn't want to dismiss it as just some angry threat designed to provoke me. It could be one, it could be the other, or it could be both.

A few times since DDay she questioned me whether polyamory was a need of mine, and said if it was, then she didn't want to stay married to me. Based on that, I don't think she truly wants poly for herself. (For the record, it is not what I need either.)

I fear not being able to handle it emotionally if she were to have sex with another man. Yes, at least she is being up front about it, but it might still hurt a lot. I don't know how I would react. I can see how it could torment me every time she went out alone--is she going to meet up with someone?--just like it does in a BS's mind post-DDay. Maybe I could come to terms with it like some BS's do. I just don't know.

I gave her a list of about 20 reasons why I thought she might want to have an extramarital encounter and about 50 reasons why I thought it might not be a good idea. She told me I did a pretty good job capturing her expressed thoughts and even one or two that she hadn't articulated. She said I was thoughtful.

Many of the reasons I gave her not to have extramarital sex were admittedly very hypocritical. Most of those reasons were about me and my feelings, which she angrily rebuffed. Some of the reasons not to have extramarital sex were about the potential damage to us as a couple. Some of the reasons were about the potential damage to herself. And then I listened to her. I heard a lot of anger. I heard a lot of hurt. I heard a lot about unfairness. I heard jealousy over the benefits I enjoyed. I acknowledged all of her feelings without defensiveness or minimizing. I thanked her for talking to me as I felt it was important to hear all this from her. Then she threw me out of the bedroom.

We have not yet raised the topic in MC. I do not know whether she has discussed this with her IC or anyone else, such has her many BW friends here on SI. She has seen this thread and noted the division of opinion.

I'm shocked by the attacks on seethelight. What the heck? There is no right or wrong, black or white. But there is snark and criticism. It's not helpful and makes people feel uncomfortable to stick their neck out and say anything. Thatguynomore...it sounds like you and your wife are working together to sort out all this pain your wife is going through. I read a lot of pain from the both of you in what you say. Communication, patience, and empathy and a common desire to heal your marriage will hopefully see the two of you through this.

^^^^Disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't attacking, WabiSabi.^^^^^^

why do spouses have to have the same boundaries? What my husband can accept may be something quite different for me.

Courageous,

Please do not make general statements. It's against site guidelines.

Men and women are wired differently. For a woman to have sex with a guy, she needs to have developed an emotional connection first (there are very few exceptions to this)

Thank you.

I am a madhatter. You can let her know that setting herself on fire to burn you doesn't work. It only destroys her.

I disagree with every ounce of my being that suggesting to ANYONE that they should give their spouse permission to cheat. And if their spouse did cheat, they were required or obligated to prove their love for their cheating spouse by forgiving and accepting the affair. That goes for betrayeds and waywards. It's bad advice for anyone looking to improve the health of their relationship. Circumstances don't change that belief. It's solid. It is quite black and white, it's common sense.

In addition to that it wasn't an attack on any one person. It was strong opposition to the advice given. That someone you have done wrong will only feel better about themselves if they get to do the same thing back at you is some really unhealthy manipulative thinking. You can't repair a relationship with manipulation. It NEVER works. The strong responses are because the whole idea is dangerous and ridiculous. That's the last I'm going to say about it.

Thatguy- I applaud you for the conversation you had. I think it was appropriate and whenever you can express and validate the feelings of your bs it will help the two of you. You don't have to agree with them to validate them. Don't take getting kicked out of the bedroom too hard. You know this is going to be rocky. Keep hanging in there.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 2:06 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

Have you expressed why you are opposed to her polyamorous adventure?

Really? That is how you want to explain it, a polyamorous adventure?

The word "Really?" followed by your following statement. I'm just saying that when I read it I gasped and felt bad for seethelight if she reads that. I apologize if I misunderstood your intention.

As a child product of a Madhatter home, is there anything more toxic to a home environment than both spouses having an A? One parent having an A is bad enough. Both of them? In my experience the environment turned so toxic, that my brother did not survive it. Literally. He committed suicide. He didn't necessarily commit suicide because of the affairs. However, the environment turned so toxic, everyone was so wrapped up in their own bullshit, that no one noticed that my brother was hurting so bad that he was going to kill himself. I was already checking out of the family because of my mother's A. Now I could see that my father no longer wanted to be their either after his A. I think he was done anyway and it was an exit A. Why would I want to stay? I checked out too. I stood back and watched the carnage unfold. Then I watched the carnage on tv after my brother killed himself.

Fuck both of my parents. I'm left standing here still holding the fucking bag 25 years later.

There is no getting back. There is no fair. Rebuilding one's confidence by having an affair yourself? Then you're being just as selfish as the first WS. Do yourself a favor and everyone else in the home and get a D first. Think through those consequences because the price is way fucking higher than you think. Not everyone survives it. Literally.

yop

eta - added the D line in that last paragraph.

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 2:39 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

I gave her a list of about 20 reasons why I thought she might want to have an extramarital encounter and about 50 reasons why I thought it might not be a good idea. She told me I did a pretty good job capturing her expressed thoughts and even one or two that she hadn't articulated. She said I was thoughtful.

Thatguy:

IMO, the good news is that your wife is still "talking" and you are listening and talking.

So you are communicating.

Worst thing is that she clams up and withdraws into herself.

I suggest bringing this issue up in MC since you said it has not yet been discussed in MC with an objective third party present.

Many of the reasons I gave her not to have extramarital sex were admittedly very hypocritical. Most of those reasons were about me and my feelings, which she angrily rebuffed.

I see you signed up in March 2014, so you are right to think that your wife is likely out of shock on into the "anger" stage.

Anger, is typically not about hatred of the spouse in an infidelity situation, it is more an expression of sadness and loss.

If you can remember that when you fight, it might help things.

Some of the reasons not to have extramarital sex were about the potential damage to us as a couple. Some of the reasons were about the potential damage to herself. And then I listened to her. I heard a lot of anger.

My husband used the "potential damage to the marriage" excuse, but Notthatguy, you gotta' realize that given the situation it sounds very hypocritical.

Yes, love triangles always cause damage.

But the HUGHE BURNING question likely in her mind is: "Why are you only NOW realizing that?

I heard a lot of hurt. I heard a lot about unfairness. I heard jealousy over the benefits I enjoyed

.

In my situation, When discussing the benefits my wayward enjoyed while I sat home with the children and pets, and juggled bills, jealousy was the last thing on my mind.

In my mind, personally, It really was about fairness, and the injustice of my husband spending marital assets and having fun, while he cared very little that I was at home keep the home fires burning.

I knew he did not love the other women. So, in my situation, jealousy was not the real issue, although I am sure it sounded that way.

However, he too insisted I was jealous of the OW. I really was not. I am annoyed that she was stalking us, but I was not "jealous."

So maybe that's your wife's feeling, too. She is hurt by the unfairness and the injustice of you seeming to not care that she was at home alone, while you were out with an OW having fun, and you cared nothing about Her (your wife) likely sitting home alone.

It really is best to clarify the root cause of your wife's anger in this discussion.

Each person likely has unique reasons for being angry after learn of infidelity.

I acknowledged all of her feelings without defensiveness or minimizing. I thanked her for talking to me as I felt it was important to hear all this from her. Then she threw me out of the bedroom.

So are you angry about that, or just resigned to it?

If Dday was March, can you cut her a break?

I think with an MC as a mediator, your discussions about this issue may be more productive.

Just a few sessions.

My husband refused to discuss this in MC. I am not sure why. And, he refuses to discuss it, further.

I didn't call anyone crazy - I called the advice crazy. Separate the two - I did. I don't know seethelight from the damn light bulb above me so if she is crazy or not, how would I know???

First of all, you're a former wayward

So because I am a former wayward I'm not allowed to have an opinion? This is the WAYWARD forum, is it not?

[This message edited by MissesJai at 3:42 PM, September 8th (Monday)]