SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

WH immediately admitted to not loving his AP even though they were telling each other all freaking day long. He immediately went NC (only work related during work hours - I'm skeptical but watching) and did so in front of me and still went through moody A withdrawal for about two weeks after DDay. He was not a completely changed man. What I am trying to say is that I worry she is trying to blind you with a changed attitude to convince you she is all about you so that you don't pick up that she is still involved with her AP.

I wanted to touch on this. She isn't exactly happy. She's sad. She cries. She seems remorseful. We had a good weekend. Last night wasn't great. This morning wasn't great. That's ok.

I may be headed towards DDay2. I hope not. Some of this means I have to trust. I can only take her word for the work stuff at the moment. I'm not ready for her to quit her job.

If she resents me for making her quit her job and we do R, then what's the point? I can only control what I can control.

Nothing can hurt more than that first affirmation that my wife had an affair. That first 5 days were the worst days in my life. My life was turned upside down.

I feel like I am being defensive. I'm not trying to be. I'm trying to do a mix of what feels right and what I need to do. Since I don't honestly know if I want to R with her, I don't want to ruin her. That won't help out my girls. I have to think about them in all of this. They did nothing wrong. They shouldn't suffer.

My WW is an awesome mother. Really, truly. She made a huge mistake. She loves our kids. Probably more than me right now. I can't take them away from her. Not for her, but for them.

She made a huge mistake

I'm going to gently correct a word in that sentence. She didn't make a mistake, she made a choice. A very poor one. But it wasn't a mistake. A mistake is taking a wrong turn on a road, bouncing a check, wearing mis-matched socks. She didn't accidently have sex with another man and then lie to you about it. That was a pre-meditated choice on her part.

[This message edited by tbkjcn at 10:31 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

Yeah, Badsitch and I sound like we were brothers in arms, so I won't add anything to his and nononsense's advice except to confirm once again this is the REALITY of the situation...

I am (was?) the epitomy of the 'nice guy'. Supportive husband, NO abuse of any kind in any way, blah blah blah. My life was to make HER happy first - and it really didn't bother me at all.

She loved her job, just like yours does. She 'needed' her job, just like yours does. She HAD to talk to him - for 'professional' reasons - just like yours does. I did exactly what you are doing. I wanted to 'save' my marriage.

It turned out EXACTLY like badsitch... Until I lost it after months of mental torture. It lead to depression, seperation, self harm, near death, months of unnecessary pain... Until I finally had enough and started acting like nononsense and others have tried to tell you.

This was BEFORE I found this website - so it was amazing to see just how true my experience was compared to this advice.

Nononsense has it totally pegged, for what it's worth. You think you are being '180' by saying just go? Ummm, no. She KNOWS she can't - but she also knows you are imposing NO real consequences and she still gets her cake with the OM because hahaha you STILL believe her when she says things like "Oh it's TOTALLY professional NOW!!!! Now that you CAUGHT me for some reason I TOTALLY see the light and you can TOTALLY trust me!!!'

Ugh. This hurts my heart.

I just have to comment on your statement:

If she resents me for making her quit her job and we do R, then what's the point? I can only control what I can control.

Nothing can hurt more than that first affirmation that my wife had an affair. That first 5 days were the worst days in my life. My life was turned upside down.

I thought this way as well. You are not looking at this correctly, as I dind't.

You aren't 'making' her do anything. Seriously. She is a grown woman who felt 'free' enough to engage in a long term affair and lie to your face when confronted. No offence, but you aren't and haven't been 'the boss' in this marriage - so stop talking like all of a sudden you are some scary dictator.

I am not saying you SHOULD be the boss either.

But as a grown woman with LOTS of free will, she can CHOOSE to act in a way that respects you, your family, and your marriage. Not TALK in a way - ACT in a way... She can take REAL action, whether that means quitting, reporting themselves, etc - to indicate that she REALLY understands what she has been doing and REALLY wants to save your marriage...

OR she can TALK and SAY she is looking for a job and SAY she is only talking to him 'when necessary' and SAY she gets it and shed a few tears... ACTIONS on her part are what should be telling you her true status in this.

And I can tell you - finding out a year later she is STILL lying and talking to him hurts like a MOTHER as well - because it is so confusing in the face of the things they say to you...

[This message edited by jobin at 10:48 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

Plan I have so far

1. VAR. I'm planning on running out within the hour to get that.

2. Divorce attorney, and get divorce papers.

3. Tell her she needs to find a new job.

4. Continue to try and get in contact with OBS.

What else? I am trying to get a plan together. Again, I hesitate on the job situation but I can be more insistent on her finding a new job.

I'm looking for advice and trying to apply it to my situation. Not that my situation is probably any different, but I also want to be able to look in the mirror at the end of the day.

I am probably letting her fool me. I don't know. I feel like she is being sincere, but I know there is a huge chance she is just lying to me.

Just wanted to touch base with you man!

If she resents me for making her quit her job and we do R, then what's the point?

I want to know where this came from man. Are these her words? I ask because don't let her tell you she might "resent" anything when it comes to cleaning house right now. Because the biggest thing to be resentful about? Banging someone else. Make sense?

My WW is an awesome mother. Really, truly. She made a huge mistake. She loves our kids. Probably more than me right now. I can't take them away from her. Not for her, but for them.

BULLSHIT. 1) Awesome mother's don't destroy a kid's family. 2) it wasn't a huge mistake. It was a consistent choice that she continued to do KNOWING what could happen. That's why she lied about it and hid it. 3) you are never taking the kids from her regardless. Unless she's a drunk, a drug addict or something like that she will get time with them after any divorce. But what's she going to do in that time? Teach them how to be liars and cheaters?

No. Get the 'mommy gets the kids' out of your mind right now. Right now, to you, their mother is the biggest scumbag on the planet. She's got a long ways to go to show you she's trustworthy enough to even get 50/50.

AND what she's doing to you right now by bringing up how badly she feels and how much she loves the kids? She trying to manipulate your emotions into impacting any child custody / time-sharing agreement. You understand that right?

I wanted to touch on this. She isn't exactly happy. She's sad. She cries. She seems remorseful. We had a good weekend. Last night wasn't great. This morning wasn't great. That's ok.

Only you can be the judge if her sadness and tears are over the hurt she has caused you and not over her loss of A or feeling like she might be forced to lose her AP. We are just second eyes on your story. Consider us editors. We point things out that seem like they may need another look, a new dissecting, another consideration. Basically, we've got your back. I also think it isn't wrong to trust your instincts about your WW. Instincts are what opened many of our eyes to our WS having an A.

It is okay to have bad days. I'm glad you see that. I, myself, go between pissed off and woebegone over still getting bad days. I'm tired of them. I know there will be more. It sucks and I wish none of us had to endure that truth.

I may be headed towards DDay2. I hope not. Some of this means I have to trust. I can only take her word for the work stuff at the moment. I'm not ready for her to quit her job.

Maybe. I hope not, too. I could be headed towards another, as well. So it goes. We cannot stop it but we can try to protect ourselves and make ourselves stronger in the meantime. I understand your feeling that you have to put out some trust. It's such an odd feeling, the trust but not trust bit. I have to trust that my WH is only on business terms with the OW now. Do I really believe it? I'm not sure. Do I hope he is being truthful to me about this? Yes but hope can only carry me so far.

I also get the not wanting your WW to quit her job. This isn't what I desire and it would really screw us financially. But I need him to not work with her. He is looking for another job. This means a lot to me, just this action. The rest is out of my hands. But I am worth more than his job that allows him to be near OW. That's important to me.

I was worried about resentment. I'm over that. If there is resentment on his part for being held accountable for his poor decisions that affect our marriage and family then he is so far from seeing the situation for what it is that he can fuck off. He can sit and rot in that office with her on his lap for eternity for all I care. I will be long gone and not have to deal with working things out. I can completely let go because he will not be worth holding on to. That's just what I feel.

Sounds like a very reasonable plan to me.

I know I sound harsh when referring to your spouse - I only do because I can't tell you how highly I and others thought of my wife... And then witnessed this!

They compartmentalize and justify the lies - "The truth will hurt him!" "I am confused!" "He will never find out so it CAN'T hurt him!" - and it took years for my wife to wake up and see just how twisted her thinking was...

One last comment and I will try and shut up:

When speaking to your spouse about the job, communication, the affair, triggers etc - I suggest you try and be as open and honest with her as possible about how these things make you feel. I don't mean be a blubbering mess, but if it is like she is twisting a knife in your chest when she mentions she HAD to talk to him etc - tell her - don't swallow it. If you can't accept them being in contact (and of course you can't) - tell her in no uncertain terms. Don't be wishy washy and say you think you can take it for the sake of her career/happiness/whatever. Just tell her and observe how she ACTS with that information. That will tell you where you really stand.

What else? I am trying to get a plan together.

I was there. My journal saved my ass more times than I can count. Plan in your journal. Makes plans A-E. What are your options?

Now take each plan and make a back up plan. Plan strategies for what her reactions are going to be AND strategies in case you feel a certain way.

example:

plan a, filing for D with option to R if she shows consistent remorse and does items 1-4

item 1 - postnup

item 2 - change jobs

item 3 - polygraph

item 4 - no contact

back up plan a1 for failure on any of items but is remorseful

backup plan a2...

etc. etc

You see where I'm going with this? You have a lot of emotional turmoil that is starting to roll and its going to roll harder and harder for a while. Having plans in place will ease some anxiety. It will ease any divorce guilt should she fail to meet some requirement. because you had the backup plan.

Right now, your mind is on overdrive and it's gonna stay there for a long time. Might as well use those energies for this.

Does all that makes sense?

Notthevictim,

You're right, they were her words. She spoke them and I assimilated them. I didn't realize until you called my bullshit on it. Thank you, truly.

And you all are right. It wasn't a mistake. It was intentional. I've seen the chat logs. She wanted it. It was premeditated. Time and time again.

I keep cross posting with people. I'm not trying to brow beat you! I guess we are just picking up on similar points. Maybe this means something?

My WH has been a great dad BUT I agree Notthevictem. Your WW is manipulating you with the kids. My WH was worried that I would keep our son from him. I went real and somewhat ugly with him. I didn't like it but it took that for him to realize and see that he didn't just do this to me (which was justified at some point for him), he did this to our family and our son. He jeopardized his relationship with his son. He turned out to not be the role model I thought I had picked for my child. I'm not okay with that. He needs to figure it out and become the man my son deserves to have as a father. He needs to be exemplary in traits that I want my son to VALUE.

Same goes for your WW. She needs to step up and deserve the role she has with your daughters. Safe is an all encompassing virtue.

She spoke them and I assimilated them.

You have no idea how many times I have been guilty of falling into that trap. My WW has fourteen post-doctoral degrees in playing the 'victim to her emotions' card. And I would fall for them every. single. time. Fucking manipulation is all it is.

And it's a damn hard habit to break. Both her playing at damsel in distress and my gut reaction to it.

So eyes open, mouth shut man. For a reason. She'll either show you she won't change, or she'll show you she will.

Edited to add: Saying that I used to experience this so I understand doesn't help you with responding to it or not falling into it the next time... so I thought I'd talk a little bit about that. A few of the biggest lines of thinking that helped me here in curbing my gut reaction are:

-Is her emotional reaction appropriate to the situation? I mean if she's crying over something that hasn't changed all week, what's really happening?

-Is the subject of this particular emotional reaction something I should even speak to. It's perfectly okay to say 'well that's your problem.' Expect the first time you do that for her to explode. That's okay. You're not being harsh or uncaring. In fact, you are being considerate. Normal adults are capable of controlling their emotions. By not being pulled into comforting her when she's having a "random" extreme emotional reaction to an event that isn't extreme, you are HELPING her to develop appropriate measure of emotional self control. Make sense?

(Don't apply this to your emotional reaction to the affair. Greif is a different story all-together. Even that said, as much as you hurt about this, you can hold it back in front of your daughters, so even then there is some measure of control. AND an affair is an extreme situation.)

One of the sayings found often around this website is 'emotions are like children. You can't put them in the trunk, but they shouldn't drive the car either.'

So try it... start to look for when she's letting her emotions 'drive the car'. And then look at your gut reaction.

That helped me, I'm sure it's different for a lot of people. Maybe someone else can chime in with how they combat it.

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 11:30 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

ICO, I don't chime in often but feel the need to offer you some suggestions. My thoughts are like a lot of other posters. I'm worried you are trying to "get through this" too fast so that you can start the healing and get back to your comfortable life as quickly and with as little pain as possible. I get that, really we all get that. You are in shock and having a hard time processing all of this. I felt the same way when I discovered my wife's ONS. It was "only" a ONS after all, so we should be able to get through this and move on with our lives fairly fast right?

Wrong... This is an Ultra Marathon, not a sprint. In order for YOU to heal, there are a lot of things you have to address before you can start trying to achieve some normalcy again.

First, in order to look yourself in the eye again you MUST take back your dignity. I see you right now sacrificing your DIGNITY for COMFORT. You are making excuses for not being able to contact the OBS, you say your wife is looking for another job, you talk about how great your weekends were with her and the kids. All of that says you are Rugsweeping at a fast pace. I don't know what it is about us guys, but we get so worried about hurting our wive's feelings that we downplay our own pain and agony for fear that it might make her uncomfortable. FUCK THAT NOISE!! She needs to be in absolute unbearable discomfort scrambling to soothe your pain. She needs to be willing to sacrifice herself for you at this point or she is only appeasing you! Let that sink in... She's using lots of hopeful words to make you think she is working hard, but doing none of the actual hard work.

Secondly, she needs to quit her job RIGHT NOW. Is your comfortable lifestyle really worth the pain of knowing, KNOWING, that they are in contact with each other multiple times a day. Hell, she ought to walk right in to her boss and tell the boss what's she's been doing on company time. FUCK the consequences to her career. If her career was so damn important to her, she wouldn't have put herself in that kind of position to begin with.

Third, you need to demand that she take part in informing the OBS. She sould willingly provided you with the contact information for the OBS (you think she doesn't know the information for the wife of the guys she's been fucking?) Ideally she ought to sit her ass down right beside you and help you make the call to inform the OBS of what she's done. She not only destroyed her own marriage, her kids and husband's lives, but she also destroyed this poor woman's live and marriage too. This poor lady deserves to know who she's married to so that she can make her own decisions about staying or leaving. Stop copping out of this. Grow a pair and demand the OBS's contact info NOW.

Fourth, she needs to Willingly provide you with a written time line for their affair. It's a lot easier for you to know if she's telling you the truth going forwards or if she's lying again if she puts down in BLACK and WHITE what she "says" happened and when. Then you have something you can compare to when she tells you something. It's really, really hard to keep track of all the lies and the stories will change over time if she is lying. On the other hand, if you have a written timeline and her stories over the YEARS remain the same then you can start to, trust her and feel like she's not giving you another bullshit story. That's how she builds trust. My wife did this for me and it's been easier for me when I start obsessing (and you will obsess over this for YEARS, probably DECADES) I read what she told me amost 3 years ago, ask her about the thing that I'm obsessing over and then compare the two answers. For my wife, she's batting 100% so far with her stories matching up. I'd be willing to bet that AT THIS TIME you don't know 1/2 of the truth and she's hoping that you'll stop digging. Don't let her off the hook that easy!!!

Lastly, she volunteers to get tested for STDs and DNA irregardless of how humiliating it is for her. Telling her boss that she's had an in office affair. Maybe even telling her parents that she cheated on her marriage. That's how she starts to show true remorse. By doing the hard, often humiliating things, despite how embarrassing it is to her. She MUST put your feelings and pain first.

These are just a few of the things you need to DEMAND of your WW. And that's just for right now. Honestly, you really are doing a great job. You are slowly coming out of the shock and now it's time for some Shock and Awe of your own!

I'm telling you right now, your wife is playing you. She's no where close to being remorseful. You HAVE GOT TO MAN THE FUCK UP and blow up her world if you ever have a chances of rebuilding the world that she's already blown up.

I can see in your posts that you are slowly getting there. Just keep pushing, doing the hard work. Get stronger, firmer, more demanding of her and you will truely see exactly how remorseful your wife actually is or if she's just placating you.

God Bless us all... This is the worst pain you'll ever experience. Make damn good and sure she's worth the pain.

Also, another way to determine if it's manipulation is to look for the hidden threat.

For example, phrasing a certain request in a way that makes it seem like if you don't do something she will assume that you don't love her. The best way I've found out of that particular agenda is just to call her out on it directly. So, you're going to take me not watching this [inherently shitty] tv show with you as me not being committed to our relationship? Really?

'So.... if we don't eat what you want to eat, then I don't love you?'

If you need to practice, try it with commercials. See how many commercials are selling the product, but the theme of the commercial is that you'll find love or happiness if you buy it. When you start to make it a habit to look for that, it will make it much much easier to recognize it when you hear it from your ww.

My WW is an awesome mother. Really, truly. She made a huge mistake. She loves our kids. Probably more than me right now. I can't take them away from her. Not for her, but for them.

You are right, your kids do need their mother.

But stop putting her on a pedestal. She is not a great mother. She has spent the last year checked out of the marriage with their daddy and spent a week with someone else's penis in her vagina rather than worrying about her kids.

Good mothers sit at work, do their job and maybe will browse pinterest looking for activities for their kids. They may grab coffee with a friend or plan a fun vacation with their family. They don't sit there on corporate IM telling some guy about how she's going to milk the cum from his cock

Just because she is good with kids doesn't mean that she is a good mother. Good mothers don't do what she did.

I am being intentionally blunt. I don't think that you need to be coddled right now, but if you do...my apologoes.

Your wife is probably 100% honest in her intent to ending the affair.

For now.

One of the problems in dealing with an affair is that we simply aren’t prepared for it. So it can be beneficial to replace affair with another self-destructive addiction (because that’s what affairs tend to be – a tool to get a rush to fulfill a need).

Imagine you wake up on a Sunday morning wondering where your wife is. She went out with the girls yesterday and you expected her home late, but before sunrise. Then you get a call from the local Sheriff’s office asking you to come bail her out of the drunk-tank. Turns out she went partying with the girls, downed a dozen cocktails and shots, danced on tables and tried to drive home. Only to be stopped by a cop whom she assaulted when they arrested her…

OK – so you go to the station and bail her out. On the way there you start wondering about all those bottles of red and white she buys. How you might have a glass of white with your dinner but still the bottle and one more seem to go… How she seems to stay up late on weekends and come to bed reeking of booze…

Once out you two sit down and have a talk…

She admits she has a problem. She drinks one to two bottles of wine daily and has recently started hitting the strong stuff too. She even admits to regularly snorting coke just to keep that edge.

So… she commits to sobriety.

She is totally 100% committed.

She recognizes the danger and the risk she’s taking in drinking.

She is totally 100% committed.

That’s where your wife is now in her infidelity.

She is totally 100% committed…

OK – so if she was an alcoholic she would have a couple of options. She could try to sober up at home alone. Or she could attend support like AA. AA requires admitting to others the issues.

Part of the program of not drinking is initially drying out her environment. She has to remove all the booze, all the red and white, the vodka she kept hidden in the laundry, the quart in her car, the coke in her purse…

She accepts that you smell her breath. She accepts that you worry if she isn’t home on time. She accepts that you are concerned of a relapse…

She avoids bars. She avoids the aisle with the booze when shopping.

With TIME she learns how to live with alcohol around her. A recovered alcoholic with some years of sobriety is capable of going to a bar with friends and not succumbing to drink. But for the first weeks, months, years…

So after being sober for 3 months her friends ask her to join them on a girl’s night out.

Because you two have kept her addiction silent then her friends don’t know why she’s been avoiding them. Your wife agrees to meet them, she even talks to you and you are OK with it (like you are OK with her working with OM…). Or she might try to hide it from you and tell you she’s visiting with her friend Jane. She meets the girls and only has a soda. Then they start asking so she has a glass of red with dinner… with the intent only to hold. Then she only sniffs at the glass… then she only dips her tongue in it… then only the tiniest of sips… Two hours later she’s drinking Mojitos’ and slamming Tequila as if there is no tomorrow…

Maybe she might even phone you to tell you all is fine and she’s sleeping at Jane’s house…

THIS is the danger of not exposing the affair.

THIS is the danger of OM and WW working together.

Every single time your WW contacts the OM there is a trigger.

One day she might think she’s “recovered” enough to meet OM at a meeting. Chances are she will hide the meeting from you – not because she has ANY bad intention. She is still 100% committed to recovery in her mind. She will hide it because she thinks that’s “better” for you.

Or she might tell you about the meeting but that it’s absolutely 100% necessary for work.

That meeting is the equivalent of holding a glass of red.

Maybe she will pass the test – maybe not.

She might make small-talk. That’s sniffing the wine.

Do you want to take that risk?

Do you want her dipping her tongue in or rekindling the affair?

She doesn’t even have to meet him…

She only needs to think of him the wrong way…

That comment he made at the joint meeting…

The wording in that post about pre-sales figures…

If we go back to the alcoholism comparison then that’s like your wife – completely sober – reading the label of that great red wine you two bought on your holiday to France, wondering how it will taste. Fact is IF she’s a recovering alcoholic she will never taste it. Think reading the label, wondering, imagining… will help her be sober? THAT bottle – as well as any other wine – has to be removed from her life.

Since we are comparing infidelity to alcoholism then do you realize that most relapse several times before recovery? That reflects in infidelity too. Some say that a person that has once cheated is statistically six times more likely to cheat than someone that hasn’t. I think that stat’s true because it’s extremely seldom that a couple have the courage to get to the roots of infidelity. Most think ending THIS affair is enough.

Does this mean she has to quit her job?

Well… I have already suggested you talk to her manager and/or the HR department. Companies are very reluctant to terminate because of infidelity but they will often put firewalls to lessen the need for interaction between people. Having a manager that’s aware of her affair would also help with monitoring when on business trips and such.

Over time – as trust and confidence grows – she might learn how to be around OM with no consequences. Just like a successfully recovered alcoholic could be around booze with no temptation. But that’s not now. Not for her and definitely not for you.

I know the first time they had sex was in October.

I know the last time they had sex was in November.

How do you know this?

Look into a polygraph?

Has your wife provided all the past emails and texts for you to read.

When the anger state hits you and it will, be ready. You cannot take your wife's words on anything.

She says it is a mistake, nope, that is a lie or at the best a sorry excuse. It was planned. Now if this affair was gong on for a year, why sex only one month?

How many other affairs has she had, she is too good at lying and BSing you.

You need to get to the anger stage, stop believing what she says without proof.

And the part about her getting a manager in between her and the OM...and she is still in contact with the OM but strictly business. Might be true, but it will not last long.

Where does this OM live? You can do a background check on anyone in this country. You can look up property records in every county for free.

Your wife sounds more sad at the losing of the affair than hurting you. This is normal, but a dangerous state of mind.

You do need to snoop right now if you are considering R. And stop telling your wife things like you wont take the kids etc. You have no idea what your wife is planning behind your back.

I am always for R, but in this situation, your wife does not sound overly remorseful at hurting you, just the loss of her affair and OM.

You need to get those emails, your wife has proven she is still lying with her very thorough job of erasing everything.

You dont want to snoop, but you also most certainly do not want to live with a liar.

That is the most important thing for you to know right now. You cannot live with a liar, and if your wife continues to lie to you, hide the full truth from you, you will end up wondering and resenting her forever.

It is the truth now or no R.

It is up to her to provide you with the entire truth and evidence she is not still in the affair.

You have no reason to take her word for anything at this time.

Has your wife told you this guys phone number, have you asked. Call the OMs wife.

stop putting her on a pedestal.

The problem with putting someone on a pedestal is they have that much further to fall. And eventually you notice that every time you look up, you see how dirty their feet are.

All of the things we're saying are support for you, man. We know you can do this. You've already got a leg up on anyone who didn't come here or tried to do it on their own. You aren't alone. We've all been through this.

It's tough. This whole thing sucks. They call it eating a shit sandwich for a reason. A rollercoaster from hell.

And there's no getting off, and you've got to eat those whole fucking sandwich.

But you don't have to do it alone. The advice your getting? It comes from many, many guys who have been right where you are. The culminated lessons learned from a whole group of betrayed husbands. You couldn't have found a better place to come to for this.

So no matter how harsh this shit sounds. Or how tough it is to implement, we're here for ya. And you'll be stronger for it. You will overcome--even if that seems like a pipedream now, you can and you will. We know just how fucking hard it is to struggle with it.

You will do this.

I picked up the VAR. On the drive back, I realized how freaking stupid I've been. I let a good weekend dupe me.