SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi,

Needs...

Reciprocity...

Love languages...

Communication...

In order to have ones needs fulfilled...we have to trust that when we communicate what those needs are, the OP will hear them....and try to address them to the best of their ability, not to a standard of perfection (Reciprocity)

And you are right, there is no justification/rationalization that is ever going to make you Get Why she did it...because there's nothing to get from your side of this!

Even if you did the allocation wkn55 suggested, just for fun! (Really??? that doesn't sound like fun to me at all!) is there really a qualitative difference to knowing how much each variable contributed to the decision to have an A? Will knowing how much each factor contributed somehow answer all those burning questions for you? IMHO, No!

I had an I/C today, We were discussing needs. She was very pleased that I was doing what I needed to do for me to survive this betrayal! She said its ok to take whatever steps I take to help me get through this, as well as to acknowledge that I am human and its ok for me feel sad and conflicted, even confused! This was a huge trauma when considered in the context of the commitment of spending the rest of your life with that person.

(((Walloped)))) Whatever you need do right now, do it! Don't hesitate for a nanosecond!. You do not appear to be self centred or self obsessed person, in the least. If you have to be selfish temporarily, in order to heal and decide if you can T again... then so be it! Why shouldn't you be entitled to having what you need??

Its staggering, really, how disappointment arises from unfulfilled needs. In your case unspoken words versus thoughtful acts. You needed to know she would be loyal and faithful, by action. She needed words, but you needed acts and she acted in such a way, that your belief in her loyalty and fidelity was shattered! The disappointment in part resulted from lack of communication of her need to have those words spoken by you and by her not understanding that your thoughtful acts were how your love manifested itself!

These disappointments get woven into the fabric of our life, but the fabric starts to wear over time..then a weak spot forms, which grows larger with each passing disappointment until, one day it can no longer hold the burden and it tears apart!

Keeping with the fabric analogy, can you repair the fabric? Possibly. Will it be stronger than it was before? Possibly. Do you want to repair the fabric? Right now you are not sure, but you are going to see if the fabric is worthy of repair! If it looks like it might be repairable, what is it that you need to repair the fabric to make sure it doesn't tear again?

You identified some of what you need, to feel safe to T that if you choose the repair option, your not going to have to worry about the fabric tearing again! There will be zero tolerance for not speaking up and communicating, going forward! Progress!

Its ok if you don't have all the answers today, but you are definitely laying the track down so your train can travel if and when the time comes and in whatever direction the track leads you.

I remember really early on in your original thread you said move over Gloria Gaynor! So how do you like Walloped, Gloria??

On that note, I wish you a good night.

WTTS

Thanks for continuing to post her, I think it's also very helpful to many others reading your posts.

She's probably read it, but going forward, it's essential she takes "Not just friends" to heart, an excellent book.

I also urge her to google "Toxic parents pdf", it's a great book that might help her explore her FOO issues. While ultimately she and you might not remain/come together again, it would be highly beneficial for her and by extension your kids for her to have addressed her FOO issues.

One day at a time. Clarity on what you want or can do will come. Best wishes

Walloped, you wrote:

I would need to be my wife to fully understand her. What I cannot do is justify what she's done based on the reasons she's discovered or identify. Meaning, they're her reasons, but they don't excuse or justify what she did. But if they help her come to grips with it, if they help her heal herself or protect her against this behavior, then I don't care if it's real or part of the tinfoil hat wearing crowd. Basically, there is no answer that will make it okay to me. There is nothing she could have learned in IC that would have made me say, "Oh. Now I get it. Well, then. No worries. Not your fault, obviously. I don't mind the 3 months of sex with POS. It's all good." So what she explains to me from her IC sessions is for her, not for me.

So why do I care? I don't. Actually, I only care to the extent that it helps her and helps me assess just who she is. Will she do this again? Has she learned from this? Was she planning on leaving? Why is she staying? Was this a "FU, I hate your guts and want out" kind of thing. Did she get swallowed up in something and lost herself. Is she regretful? Is she remorseful? Is she willing to work at herself? These are things I want to know and am watching for.

Does that make sense or does only in my totally exhausted brain?

You get it, totally. Doesn't make the problem easy, but lets you know where to "mass your fires" as we say in the military. Too many BS (I think) depend on the WS to help them heal, when all the WS can really do is stop hurting them worse.

You get it, totally. Doesn't make the problem easy, but lets you know where to "mass your fires" as we say in the military. Too many BS (I think) depend on the WS to help them heal, when all the WS can really do is stop hurting them worse

HouseofPlane - Thanks. Most of the time I really don't know if I'm just selling myself a line of bull that sounds good or am actually making sense. I similarly don't really know if I'm doing the right things or just running around in circles chasing my tail. So, simple posts like yours is very helpful to me as they keep me on track and let me know I'm not totally insane, depsite the fact that I feel that way on a regular basis.

You are not insane.

You just happened to get thrown into an insane situation by someone that you love that was acting insane herself.

Hopefully, it was temporary insanity for both of you.

Walloped,

I'll do my best to be simple.

It's really really hard not to overthink it... Mea Culpa.

Serenity Now!

Most of the time I really don't know if I'm just selling myself a line of bull that sounds good or am actually making sense. I similarly don't really know if I'm doing the right things or just running around in circles chasing my tail.

Just my suggestion, and even in consideration that you are only "trialing" the R, you might want to move over to the Reconciliation forum and start a new thread there. I would think you would get more focused insight from the members here who are in that process of R already who would be better able to communicate, advise and provide insight regarding this path. I think you are pretty much driving the bus now, so to speak. You just need a more suitable GPS navigator to help you around those potential potholes and wrong turns.

Jduff - I've been thinking about this actually, as others have mentioned it privately to me as well. You guys are like my security blanket and I really don't want to let go, but it might be beneficial to get different perspectives as this is a new road and it seems like responses/advice from fWS's would be helpful.

Wall,

I just wanted to say.............

I barely slept last night just tossing and turning just trying to figure out what is going on with me. It wasn't easy but by morning, I started to formulate some sort of idea of what was going on and whether or not I could ever get past it. By the time I got to work, I knew what I was feeling and thinking. But I still needed to figure out what I was going to do but most importantly, what I needed to do.

I had my assistants take over with my work for the most part so that I could take care of some personal matters I told them. When in reality, I was just trying to hash out what I had to do next and the near future. At one point, I realized that having the one night stand was actually not me. I was the one who was faithful for 10 years, loved my wife unconditionally, and promised to be there for her throughout our marriage. So why should I throw my self-respect and dignity away all because she screwed up? I would be losing by letting her push me to the edge like that, not winning.

But even with deciding not to go through with the ONS, I knew I had to talk to my wife and let her know how I was feeling and what I wanted. I texted her and told her to try to get home before 6pm so that we can have a talk. She asked me if something was wrong and I told her that we just needed to talk about us because I didn't want to alarm her for the entire day.

I get home and we immediately sit down to talk. I tell her that I love her and that what I was going to tell her wasn't easy. I begin by telling her that the last 6 months have truly made me happier than I was in the 4 miserable months of separation. I had hope that the happiness that I had would be enough to get us back on track but every time I thought things were progressing in the right direction, I would have my moments of darkness. Moments where I would look at her smiling and acting normally as if what she did was deleted from her memory even though I knew it wasn't. Moments where I would realize that when she cheated, she unraveled all the love and beauty that our relationship had produced in the last 10 years.

Because of how I felt that way, we were essentially at ground zero and back to square 1. We had to basically date again before we could even act like husband and wife. For me personally, I had to take a step back from time to time and see why or how my wife betrayed me the way she did. Why she couldn't come to me and tell me that she was lonely and feeling neglected. After all, we would tell each other EVERYTHING. She didn't tell me she was hurting so instead, she selfishly let another man have her in bed. She had many opportunities to step away that night but she didn't and that stings.

Sleeping with my wife the last 6 months has been hell. I told her that even with the very occasional number of times we did sleep together in this period, I felt like I wasn't sleeping with my wife but rather another man's wife. I am so disconnected every time and have to endure sporadic thoughts of whether or not she did what we were doing with the other guy. Having sex was no longer something pleasurable that we did as a couple but rather a challenge we had to do as individuals. She started to tear up at this point about to interrupt me but I told her I needed to tell her more.

I explained that no matter how much I loved her, there was still this dark cloud that always reminded me that she cheated when I was faithful and a great husband. I explained to her the imbalance I felt because of my pride and how I once contemplating having a one night stand with another woman. She continued to tear up and kept listening. I explained to her that I realized I was better than that. That just because she did something wrong didn't mean I had to do something wrong too just to make myself feel better. It wouldn't have been fair to me nor her.

But unfortunately, my decision not to go ahead with the ONS didn't have much to do with my love for my wife as it did with with self-respect and pride. And I say that even though I love my wife very much. I told her that I realized that the ONS or anything else for that matter will probably never fix what has been broken. I commended her for trying hard to make it up to me the last couple of months but it wasn't her that was the problem, it was me. No matter what she does, I will always remember her betrayal and for me to linger on that thought would not be fair for myself or for her. I told her that I had forgiven her for what she had done but my forgiveness, unfortunately, isn't strong enough to endure years and years of anguish through a healing process I don't even know will fair well in the end.

Somewhere at this point, she broke down crying and told me that she would do anything to win my heart back because she loved me so much. I reminded her that she was a great person in that she tried very hard to do that already but I was just the problem. I told her that I loved her enough to finally let go, let her find someone else that she can start over with and can see her for the woman I once saw her. She broke down and said that I was the only one she wanted to be with and that she would never want to be with anyone else again, that she couldn't because her heart belonged to me, etc. I felt a little bad but reminded myself that this was best for me and this would be my true and only selfish moment, not with a stupid ONS.

I told her that I would be filing for divorce in a while but in the meantime would still be living at home, staying in our guest room. I told her that the house and 2 of our cars will be hers while I take my own car (a classic) that I spent years to restore. And everything else will be split according to what our attorneys agree upon. She cried some more but I told her that I loved her and that she had been a great wife for 8 years but all great stories must come to an end at some point. I gave her a kiss on the cheek and gave her some space to cry and gather herself. As for me, I'm not sure what the future will hold but I will surely take my time and do what I need and think is best for me. She should have talked to me, that is what a husband ans wife is suppose to do. This was not just a "Sorry I made a big mistake". What was she thinking when she was taking off her clothes to have sex with a stranger? Then to come home to me?!! And then do it again and again. Why come home, you made your nest somewhere else. I just could not do this to ME any longer. I went through the pain and suffering, the mind games. just was too much.

Tomuchdrama - thanks for sharing your story. I'm going to see what I can and can't live with. As I've said before, there are two key issues in front of me: a) is she safe and someone I want to reconcile with? And b) do I want to reconcile with her? What can I live with? The second question is really the most important.

I wish you all the best.

-W

Wal, it's great that you've been posting on other people's threads, I hope it will help not only them, but you as well.

Best wishes

05% not enough helping the wedding (RESENTMENT)

05% becoming a MIL (__% getting old, soon no new guys will want me)

05% ego kibbles, felt so good that a man besides husband feels "that way" about me

50% how "boring" my life was before, how "exciting" every day is now with the affair; I haven't felt so great like that since I was a teenager; the joy of waking up every day, the "anticipation" of "what will happen today" with my new lover.

05% new sex partner - variety is the spice

05% new sex acts - always wondered

05% I worked hard, I deserve it (corollary - everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't I?)

20% I'll be careful, husband will never know (corollary - what he doesn't know won't hurt him)

00% of cognitive dissonance (it's true, so what? it's not about why the cheating)

00% of Pavlov pellets (conditioned response? maybe, probably not; if so, it's not about why the cheating)

00% FOO issues. (It is true for some cheaters, but I doubt for hers. How bad a childhood, how dysfunctional? How many of us had ZERO dysfunction in our families? Would we even know how "normal" it would be? Doubtful I think that deep FOO issues went undetected for 20-plus years, then she suddenly went off the rails)

The process

Feeling "getting older" is in the background, it has been creeping along silently, I am not as "young and pretty" as I was at one time, but I'm still pretty attractive, but how much longer ... some other women I know turned quite quickly into "granny" looking, I hope that won't be me ...

Some event occurs with RESENTMENT - put it's toehold in.

How flattery that another guy likes me, that makes me feel good, it reassures my doubts about "getting older." It's hard to turn that away and put up a boundary when it feels so good. ("I know I shouldn't eat another slice of that chocolate cake, but it tastes sooooo good. Yummy!")

There is no "affair" yet, but my muscles sing every morning when I wake up; such an expectation of anticipation, what the day will bring, those days I will meet him, I look forward to it, I no longer feel my life as boring, routine. I haven't felt this joy waking every morning like this since I was a teenager.

Such guilt after I had sex. SCRUBBING, SCRUBBING. I feel like a fraud. Husband doesn't even notice it. Every passing day, it is easier to keep those ideas out, not let them in my head, ignore. As long as husband doesn't notice, this is OK. It is something nice "for me," but does not really "hurt" my husband. As long as he doesn't know. Must cover tracks not to let him know.

New sex partner, it's a little boost, but not the reason I'm doing this. New sex acts, not something I ever cared for that much, but I had been slightly curious.

As this goes on, "bonding" occurs. Keeping secrets together, we are "on the inside," husband is "on the outside," we are in "the club," he is not invited; we could have "inside jokes," husband would go right over his head. Allegiance is beginning to turn to new guy, away from husband. If it lasts long enough, it will happen, complete allegiance will switch to new guy I love deeply from old guy who I used to be with and feel nothing anymore.

That's a great post wk55. One of the best in this entire forum IMHO.

Hi Walloped!

I go away for a few days and come back to 8 pages I haven't read!

It sounds like things are moving in the right direction, for the time being.

You guys are like my security blanket and I really don't want to let go

I was thinking about this as I was catching up on the thread. It's almost like you are "checking in" here sometimes to make sure we here at SI are all in agreement with what you did or said.

This will, ultimately, not help you learn to trust your gut instinct or learn from fuck-ups that happen along the way all on your own without everyone here chattering on your computer screen.

I feel like I wish you would post and say, "Listen here SI bitches, here's what I did and said and I like it. Take it or leave it.". That's an extreme example, of course, but at some point you do have to start cutting ties a bit. I think many of us are like this in the beginning, as we are so devastated and SI is the first place we come upon where people get it and have concrete advice for us.

Just something to think about.

You have a good head on your shoulders and you're doing fine. Trust yourself.

(((W)))

b) do I want to reconcile with her? What can I live with? The second question is really the most important.

Yes this.

Ultimately, it's that simple and that complex.

My husband made a huge shift in his behavior. He is a new and improved version of the man I married. Do I think he's a safe partner now? Yes. A little tweeking on the "opening up" issues, and I'd say he's very trustworthy, now.

I'd venture to guess that your wife will be that safe partner again. But, that may not be enough.

But, because we are not lesser mammals who can only live in the moment (a gift!), we carry our past experiences into each new day.

So, it's going to come down to: what can you ultimately live with? How much living in the moment, the present, are you capable of?

That will take time. Some of us know right away. Some, it takes months or years.

Walloped, do you see value in the tool of therapy to aid healing for you and your wife, now that you are 4 weeks in? Is she showing empathy for what she has done and are you starting to feel empathy in how she now feels? There are no absolutes here. Is the glass now half full or half empty? Take as much time as you need to process everything. Feed that Good Wolf and continue to Trust your Gut! Sending my prayers from South Louisiana this morning, that God continues to help you find clarity for yourself & your family.

wk55n, I read your post about the same time that I read this...

http://www.theonion.com/article/study-100-percent-of-americans-lead-secret-lives-1242

Study: 100 Percent Of Americans Lead Secret Lives

NEWS

October 27, 2004

VOL 40 ISSUE 43

News · Human Interest

BERKELEY, CA—A study released Monday by the University of California-Berkeley shows that 100 percent of Americans fail to disclose the full truth about what they think and do in private.

The Berkeley study, based on exhaustive surveillance of thousands of individuals, as well as information gleaned from personal diaries and nosy neighbors, undoes any perception that people living in quiet obscurity are without bizarre tendencies. According to Greene, every single study participant had a history of abnormal behavior.

"Human beings have a remarkable ability to keep themselves from recognizing their own flaws while attacking others," San Francisco-based psychiatrist James Dowling said. "This whole thing should blow over as soon as the initial sting fades. Besides, the fact that I like to be spanked—hard—is no one's business."

Such guilt after I had sex. SCRUBBING, SCRUBBING. I feel like a fraud. Husband doesn't even notice it. Every passing day, it is easier to keep those ideas out, not let them in my head, ignore. As long as husband doesn't notice, this is OK. It is something nice "for me," but does not really "hurt" my husband. As long as he doesn't know. Must cover tracks not to let him know.

wk55hn

For women the long shower after initial sex is more common than you would think. IMO married people are more free when flirting than single people. They get closer to the edge because they feel as if they’re working with a net. Being married they can’t have sex with the OM so the flirting is innocent by definition.

Sooner or later the planets align; they have sex and can’t believe what they did. Then they take a long shower and process. They think that the guilt is written over their face and are surprised when their BH doesn’t see it.

Now they can go one of three ways:

1. The shower didn’t help. They feel terrible and confess everything.

2. The shower didn’t help. They feel terrible, cut ties with the OM but don’t confess.

3. The shower helped and they realize that they got away with it. They can have a great time for free. It’s like they discovered a secret tunnel into a bank vault. If they rob the bank it’s not because they’re broken, it’s because they determined it was worth it. If they’re caught they experience a come to Jesus moment because they don’t want to go to jail.

A better example is an embezzler. They are in a trusted position, take a small amount of money and get away with it. You hear stories all the time about the church secretary that had been stealing money for years until the building fund was needed for the new church. They aren’t broken, they liked the money. If there is an "I'm sorry" dance they can do to avoid jail they will do it.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 9:09 AM, September 18th (Friday)]

I was thinking about this as I was catching up on the thread. It's almost like you are "checking in" here sometimes to make sure we here at SI are all in agreement with what you did or said.

nekorb - Exactly. I know I've said this before, but I cannot imagin what would have happened to me had I not come to this site and you all had not kicked me in the pants and gave me such tremendous advice and support (actually, I can imagine and it's not pretty). So, I don't want to let go and I still look at you all as my crutch - wiser and more experienced (unfortunately). I'm so nervous? Scared? Unsure of myself about so many things. I don't know what's true or real anymore. But you guys are and I've learned to lean on you and not doing that, or doing less of it is very daunting. So, yes, I'm kinda needy. But I've also realized that it's probably the right thing for me to move on a bit and take a stand - whatever that may be and inform, rather then check in seeking approval.

cajun - IC has helped me. I have a hard time believing what he's telling me about myself - good and bad. We haven't really spoken beyond very practical things like the kids this week. I'm just trying to see if I can survive sleeping in my own bed and being around her regularly and she's walking around like an abuse victim, scared to upset the applecart in any way. She seems more content to follow my lead at this point. She does work on her IC exercises a lot. She has workbooks and stuff and spends a lot of time on that. So we're coexisting but not really. I discussed it at IC last night. Basically, my IC said I'm a frightened kid, scared of taking the shortcut to school cause the neighborhood bully will beat me up and steal my lunch money. So, I'm taking the long way around. This is what I'm doing with her. Avoiding the issues because not avoiding them requires opening myself up, which means making myself vulnerable to pain. And we all do that in a marriage, but here there's history of her doing that to me and it's still very, very fresh.

Long way for a hotdog, but yes. It's helpful.

Valentine - I don't know what I'm capable of handling. If I were a betting man, I'd agree with you that she'll do what she needs to in order to be safe for me. She seems intent on that. I just can't bet on me. Not yet. I vacillate. There are times when I look at her and I have such anger. I scare myself. Other times it's love. Intense love. And yet others, I feel like curling up into a ball and crying. Time heals, right? I just think that now, nearly 7 weeks in, I cannot make such a decision and likely won't be able to until I have a better handle on my emotions and I'm certain they're not clouding my judgement.

...she's walking around like an abuse victim, scared to upset the applecart in any way...

From what you've described this sounds like it's a slightly-exaggerated and more visible version of the way she's felt most of the time going back to childhood.

Basically, my IC said I'm a frightened kid, scared of taking the shortcut to school cause the neighborhood bully will beat me up and steal my lunch money. So, I'm taking the long way around. This is what I'm doing with her. Avoiding the issues because not avoiding them requires opening myself up, which means making myself vulnerable to pain.

I'm not sure that avoidance isn't the best approach right now - giving yourself some time to build up a little scar tissue from the recent trauma. One thing's for sure - you didn't avoid anything after you discovered her cheating - you jumped right in and did exactly what you needed to do, for your family and for yourself. I don't see what you're doing now as the result of fear but of wanting to get a clearer picture of who your wife is now before deciding if, when, and how to engage with her.