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I'm also having trouble with the IC's assertion that the affair was rooted in the dynamics of Mrs. W's relationship with her father, or rather with the unstated implications of this assertion. If that's what drove her interactions with POS, isn't it reasonable to conclude that that's just how she conducts all intimate relationships, including that with her husband? And if that's the case, how real has her marriage been all these years? Is her apparent remorse and willingness to work as hard as necessary on reconciliation now, just a matter of trying to do whatever it takes to keep "Daddy" (W.) from being mad at her?

Complete speculation of course, but the real point is that it's going to take a very long time for Mrs. W. to get all of this sorted out. It is not simply a matter of "now I'm out of the fog and boy was that a close call and what would you like for dinner tonight?"

the real point is that it's going to take a very long time for Mrs. W. to get all of this sorted out. It is not simply a matter of "now I'm out of the fog and boy was that a close call and what would you like for dinner tonight?"

Amen, Foley05, Amen. It took me two years of work ("peeling the onion") to get a good grasp of WHY I was making the choices I had been making in my life. Then, I remember clearly thinking... "Okay, NOW what?"

Change is a process of not only stopping one set of beliefs and behaviors, but also then choosing, learning, and acting out of different beliefs. Well, how the (frank) do you choose and learn new beliefs if you've spent your whole life acting out of a prior set of beliefs?

That's a different kettle of fish that takes yet more time.

That's why INTENTIONS are so important, IMO. We are not our feelings, but our intentions. Acting on our "feelings" is a fool's errand; feelings are ephemeral. Acting on our intentions helps us choose who we are.

I can't remember if I posted it here or on another thread, but I'm fond of this quote:

“Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.” --Thomas Jefferson

[This message edited by livinganew at 10:29 PM, September 13th (Sunday)]

I also don't agree with the IC that the love was fake. Love is love is love. It's a biological instinct which drives us towards mates. There is a fake love because then there isn't a true love either. We all love people for reasons, it could be the way they look, the way the treat us, how the smell or how they tie their shoes. Love is impossible to quantify or qualify, and love is absolutely able to be formed because of the dopamine rush that compliments bring on. It's possible to love more than one person, but promising not to love another as you love your husband or wife isn't stating that it's not impossible - it's stating you're vowing not to.

I think that the word "love" is often and wrongly used to describe infatuation.

Walloped, ­

IMHO you are very lucky men, considering­ the circumstances of course.

I believe your wife is totally honest ab­out what she did and half about what she­ was thinking while doing it.

The motivations for her doings looks mor­e like rewriting what was going on in he­r mind to fit what happened. I believe t­his is not something she does on purpose­ but to try to explain her mess, but she­ needs to understand it for real in orde­r to not do it again.

The empty nest thing with kids at home i­n very hard to believe.

The validation from OM while in a good m­arriage is very hard to believe also. Th­at’s why she made a story in her head ab­out a unhappy marriage. The thing is why­ she was pretending the whole time to be­ happy with you, in a happy marriage, wh­ile falling for OM? IMO doesn’t make any­ sense.

Pursuing sex with OM was because she lik­ed it, maybe she felt she own him for hi­s attention but the thing is that she ma­de herself like it a lot in order to be ­in love with OM. Was it better? Of cours­e she felt it was way better while “in l­ove with him”, as you can read at WW sid­e. Does she feel it way now? No, IMO the­ most she liked it the worse she is feel­ing about it now.

I think she is afraid to realize, and ac­cept, why she did it as it may change th­e perception she has of herself and the ­perception everybody have of her.

The reality is that she did it because s­he wanted, she knew better from the begi­nning and still decided to do it. Yes sh­e was vulnerable and OM was a predator, ­but IMO she was looking for that kind of­ validation outside marriage. Was OM a p­redator that was in the right place at t­he right moment while she was weak? or s­he was ready to have an affair with OM o­r any other Men?

Last paragraph leads to a big matter: Ar­e you plan B? If her affair was somethin­g ready to happen with OM or other. Befo­re she knew OM was a predator, her siste­r warned her but she kept doing it. Afte­r DDays you told her that any contact wo­uld be a deal breaker and she did it any­way. And she keeps saying that she never­ thought about leaving you… Hard to beli­eve.

IMO she needs to figure it out not just ­what make her vulnerable to OM but also ­why she pursuit an external validation f­rom other man and was willing to do anyt­hing to keep it coming.

She needs to take a really good look at ­her motivations and her boundaries as we­ll.

As you have been pointing out, you need ­to decide if you want to R knowing that ­your marriage will never be the same. It­ doesn’t mean it will be worse but diffe­rent. Also her affair has changed you fo­r good.

IMO You shouldn’t ask yourself right now­ if you could R or not but if you want t­o and you will never know until you try.­ If it is what is holding you back remem­ber that you can go away after deciding ­to R anytime because R is:

·­ ­Not a promise, has no guaranties.­

·­ ­A process that takes years; you can deci­de to leave anytime you feel like, in a ­couple of days or in a couple of years.

·­ ­Not for everyone, even when the WS is do­ing everything right and even more the B­S can’t make it.

·­ ­Not a must, you don’t own her nothing. E­ach day you decide to R, if you do, is a­ gift not an obligation or a promise.

Also R is:­

·­ ­A rollercoaster, one day you may feel gr­eat just to want to day next one.

·­ ­One of the hardest things you will ever ­try.

·­ ­Not bullet proof, it doesn’t mean she wo­n’t do it again, or an external factor, ­out of your control, won’t hit you like ­ran into OM friends that knew the affair­ or OM himself in the future.

·­ ­Not a project with a deadline, it may la­st forever.

·­ ­A battle with many fronts. The ramificat­ions of her affair are many and will fol­low you both for a long time; friends, a­ctivities, work trips, vacations, places­ she was with him, etc.

You are being forced to make one of the ­hardest decisions of your life when the ­options you have are far from fair. All ­you can do is take the option that’s wil­l allow you to look at the mirror every ­day without feeling bad.

Keep venting.­

Walloped. I am stunned, and shouldn't be. So many of our stories are paradoxical in that they are unique, yet...so similar. You page 8 synopsis of you wife (the long post) stopped me in my tracks. It was as if you knew my own situation and MrsCanoe.

I disagree with many here in this thread since that post. MrsW is back on a good track, and her IC sounds terrific.

Best to you. Good luck.

W-

It seems like things are going as well as they can right now. I think you've navigated this all really well.

Now I'll probably insult some people here (not the first or the last time). Be careful of all the FOO navel gazing that she provides. I think it's GREAT for people to explore their past and see how it impacts their present. But remember that you had 22 years without her acting ridiculously. Reading your update, I find the entire wedding thing just absurd. There have been some real stupid reasons that people have affairs on here and this one is near the top. She's planning a wedding (NOT her own wedding, mind you) and paying for it with the money you make while you head to work each day. Then she's whining that you aren't helping when she's a SAHM. Really??? And this resentment is what opened her up to an affair? It baffles me. I say all this because I really encourage you to push for her to get a job. After DDay, things can slip back into a normalcy that isn't great for her. If feeling useless because the kids are growing up is a problem, it's only going to get worse. And her identity simply can't be "the best mom and wife ever" because she's going to lose one title and she took a monumental shit on the other title. She needs SOMETHING to do. I think it would also help with her immaturity which has been pointed out several times. I know you don't believe it now, but you will emerge stronger than ever before. She will not. She has permanently stained her perception of herself. And she didn't have that much to cling on to before.

From a strategic Xes and Zeroes playbook GANTT chart type outlook, it's critical that she look for employment since there is a non-zero chance that she will be "on her own" soon.

It's atleast a discussion point.

Walloped,

Contrary to what you might expect then I really didn’t focus on getting you to reconcile. I focused on getting you to take action. That action could have been D or R but IMHO it has to be one or the other. I sensed in your posts really early on that R is what you wanted so I sort of tried to goad you in that direction.

I think the often-used advice of taking no live-altering decision for six months is grossly misunderstood. Just by confronting her you took action. Heck… everything about infidelity screams action! I think the key is to take conscious and thought through action, action based on best interest and not spite or revenge. Action that is decisive but not irrevocable. But action never the less.

I challenge BS to take action. I try to make sure that action is geared towards results. I try to make sure it’s productive. A decision to R or to D isn’t carved in stone. Either can be revoked or reconsidered for quite some time if you change your mind.

A poster referred to your business background and compared your decision to an investment or bond. As someone with a degree in financial management I thought he comparison very apt. If we compare taking action and not making any major decision for six months in a business environment we wouldn’t be making any money.

IMHO the investment (your marriage) is a lot more like a business venture where you can impact the potential future value. If the venture is bleeding money you look over the numbers, the performance and the return of investment. You might decide that it’s best to cut your losses and move on to better endeavors. Or you might decide that you should put more effort because you see potential and the possibility of a return.

What you wouldn’t do is a) nothing and hope for the best or b) decide to turn things round and then do nothing.

You take action and evaluate your success (or failures) as you go along. Maybe six months from now you start seeing dividends. Maybe six months from now the venture files for Chapter 11…

About her IC and the childhood issues…

Frankly I’m not too deep into Gestalt crap or Freudian complexes but it’s undeniable that IC’s get results based on the methodology they use. So if she wants to base her decision to have an affair on having been refused a Barbie doll at age five… fine. If it works. For some it’s religion, some its exercise, some IC. If it helps then great.

Adolf Hitler had what many would consider an ideal childhood. Winston Churchill had a rough childhood, as did Abraham Lincoln.

The solution to your marriages problems won’t be found in her childhood issues. But hopefully dealing with them and the tools the IC (and MC) offer will help her learn how to deal with her adult-issues.

It really sounds as if he’s getting the message across to her: It was about validation, the excellent point sensibletinch made about infatuation… I really think the IC will help her a lot.

Walloped - Be clear on this: All you have attained so far is a decision to start a journey. You might even have taken the first few steps. But it’s as if you have decided to climb Mt. Everest but are still located in NY. You have a long way to go before you even approach your goal, let alone start the climb. Listen to the advice about pacing yourself. Be totally honest with yourself about what you like and what you don’t like about your “new” marriage. Be ambitious – life is too short to waste it with someone you don’t love and in an environment you can’t thrive in.

Adolf Hitler had what many would consider an ideal childhood. Winston Churchill had a rough childhood, as did Abraham Lincoln.

Sorry to t/j here, but I just have to point out this is a very questionable assessment of history. Adolf Hitler had a domineering, abusive father...I can't imagine who would find that ideal. Winston Churchill had a mostly distant relationship w his father, unideal but similar to his aristocratic peers...I can't imagine who would call that rough. Abraham Lincoln had a wonderful, loving relationship with both parents...yes, they were poor, which some might consider rough, but I would take poor and loving over rich and abusive any day of the week.

Sorry, don't mean to get off track from Walloped here. I just disagree w Bigger's analysis of the importance of FOO issues, and I thought it ironic, that the three examples he listed actually (in my opinion) lent support to the opposite conclusion.

Money doesn't indicate a good childhood. Loving relationships indicate a good childhood. Just my two cents.

Walloped, your wife's explanations (notice I did not say excuses) make all the sense in the world to me. She is a broken person and has a lot of work to do but seems very much fixable w continued cognitive therapy, which it sounds like she is receiving.

Give it time. Emotional wounds are just like physical wounds. You pursue the right treatment and then it just takes time. I don't really equate marriages w businesses, but to use that metaphor, I would say the potential ROI is pretty high here. As someone posted earlier, you may even end up w a healthier, more holistic version of your wife than you ever had before. Thats worth the leap of faith, don't you think?

Sending prayers to you and your family.

Hey Wallped,

I've been here, being silent and watchful.

I thought the comment of LTS was apt

Its called a self fulfilling prophecy (SFP). A person is so convinced that a certain negative thing will happen to them (because they have a specific view of themselves and the world and therefore their inexorable fate) that they will unconsciously cause the feared outcome by acting out in such a way that they will cause it.

This fear is pervasive and I say this because I have first-hand experience with someone who is living their own SFP

Psycho babble….um No!

Also, DV has a profound psychological and emotional effect, particularly on the target and the children who bear witness. IMHO it has nothing to do with education, race or socio economic status. Power imbalance dynamics are at play.

But I think that's true for almost all affairs. They're not real life and the fantasy dies pretty quickly in the face of the real world.

That seems to hold true in your case, but don't forget about the "flips the bird type of WW, where the fantasy lives on! You should count yourself blessed and lucky that you don't have one of those!

Mrs. W does not appear to be deluded by that fantasy anymore and realizes the value of you, your family and your M and how she risked it all. If Mrs. W is true to your description, she’s going to fight like hell and work her arse off, so you guys can be one of those cute old couples….Special.

I would say the potential ROI is pretty high here. As someone posted earlier, you may even end up w a healthier, more holistic version of your wife than you ever had before. That's worth the leap of faith, don't you think?

Yup, well worth it!

And so ..you just need to figure out whether this leap is one you want to take! All you can do right now is remain watchful and don't be silent!

WTTS

Walloped - Congratulations on your decision to reconcile with your WW. I'm sure you two crazy kids will make it.

[This message edited by theDrifter at 5:47 PM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

Drifter - you may want to go back and look at Walloped's post at 2:04 pm on 9/13.

Thank you all for your recent posts. The past few days have been bizarre to say the least. We haven't discussed the affair at all on advice from some here in this thread. She's beet taking the lead from me and I haven't wanted to discuss it so I can process feelings and thoughts.

I don't know how much of what she's learnt in IC is real, true, or bullshit. I just don't know. I know that I'm not like that. I have a different makeup. I don't want to spend a whole post on my FOO issues, but we each react to our issues in different ways. I would need to be my wife to fully understand her. What I cannot do is justify what she's done based on the reasons she's discovered or identify. Meaning, they're her reasons, but they don't excuse or justify what she did. But if they help her come to grips with it, if they help her heal herself or protect her against this behavior, then I don't care if it's real or part of the tinfoil hat wearing crowd. Basically, there is no answer that will make it okay to me. There is nothing she could have learned in IC that would have made me say, "Oh. Now I get it. Well, then. No worries. Not your fault, obviously. I don't mind the 3 months of sex with POS. It's all good." So what she explains to me from her IC sessions is for her, not for me.

So why do I care? I don't. Actually, I only care to the extent that it helps her and helps me assess just who she is. Will she do this again? Has she learned from this? Was she planning on leaving? Why is she staying? Was this a "FU, I hate your guts and want out" kind of thing. Did she get swallowed up in something and lost herself. Is she regretful? Is she remorseful? Is she willing to work at herself? These are things I want to know and am watching for.

Does that make sense or does only in my totally exhausted brain?

Separately - I'll keep saying I have not made a decision regarding R and will likely not make that decision for a long while. I've told her this. There are two major things I need to work out: a) is she someone I want to R with? I she safe? Can I trust her? Etc, etc., etc., and b) Can I R? Me. Do I have it in me? Do I want to? Can I get past this? Me, me, me. What do I want for my life. Maybe selfish, but that's how I feel (today). Kind of along the lines of Bigger's point. So I'll keep watching and learning. And evaluating.

wk55hn - As an aside, I've been considering your % chart. Want to think about that some more.

[This message edited by Walloped at 10:15 PM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

IMO she needs to figure it out not just ­what make her vulnerable to OM but also ­why she pursuit an external validation f­rom other man and was willing to do anyt­hing to keep it coming.

Mrhealed - I haven't spent much time in this and the prior thread discussing my marriage pre-A. What I can say is that we have very different love languages and I was focused on mine, not hers. I'm a doer. I show my love for people by giving and doing. She's verbal. Needs to told and talked to. Acts of love that are not practical. I'm Mr. Practical. I fI know she needs a new blender, I'll show my love for her by Getting one for her - and not just any blender. I'll spend 2 weeks researching and will get her the best blender I can (within budget limits). She'll be super appreciative, but doesn't necessarily translate that act as a as powerful message of love as say, taking a day off from work to spend with her just having a picnic. Time, language, etc. That's her love language.

I will say I have been remiss in providing that to her for a while. Nothing unique. Call it taking her for granted. I can argue she did the same. None of that excuses anything, mind you. I'm just pointing it out as to why she might have been starving for that validation and when she started getting it from POS, she latched onto that source. What we both should have done was communicate better - identify what was missing and what we both needed. We didn't, to my eternal regret (and it seems to hers as well).

What do I want for my life. Maybe selfish, but that's how I feel (today). Kind of along the lines of Bigger's point. So I'll keep watching and learning. And evaluating.

I think you'll get to your next mini-stage when you're truly comfortable accepting that it is ok being selfish.

You're going to need to reconcile your next step is going to be the one that you are going to live with for the rest of your life. Selfish has a negative connotation, but in this case we're not talking being bad.

The percentage chart was to make a point, not meant to actually fill it in. If you do the percentage chart, it's purely academic, it's just for fun. Those percentages changed over time and the affair evolved. My opinion, IC "reasons" given are true, HOWEVER, there is more to it than that, the selfish, self-centered, stuff. I guess the counselor can't be like a blunt asshole like me. Plus your situation triggers me, too close to my own. So I trigger a bit and then bite back, so I'm sorry if I'm a little too blunt.

You are in a good spot to reconcile, you are doing well, I don't see your wife as "repeating," I think she will be one and done. This is like saying "on paper" your team should win, but you still have to go out and actually win it.

[This message edited by wk55hn at 9:17 PM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

The "love languages" stuff always makes my head spin but I've never been able to put my finger on exactly what bothers me about it. This discussion has clarified it at least a little. The best result is for each partner to become equally fluent in the other's language, but reciprocity tends to get lost in the shuffle and what comes out in the end is "you need to get real good at her love language or she'll go off and cheat again and it will all be your fault."

In this case it may be more important for MrsW to learn your language. If her love language is the sort of attention and flattery that POS showered her with, you will never be able to be as good at that as someone with nothing but time on his hands and the single objective of messing with your wife. Competing with that is just another version of the "pick me" dance. The only way to win that game is not to play.

[This message edited by Foley05 at 9:48 PM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

It's over simplistic for BS to think that if they work on their 50% portion of the marital problems that that necessarily means that they are agreeing that the affair was caused 50% by them.

That's pure hogwash. Any WS or AP will tell you, they did because they wanted to do it. Full stop, end of sentence. They did it IN SPITE OF what was good in their marriage and what was bad about the marriage was the LAST THING on their minds.

Their thinking went something like this:

a. I'm really attracted to this person

b. I love that they are so attracted to me

c. Feeling this and touching them and having sex with them feels amazing.

d. I know this is wrong, but I don't want to stop because I deserve this.

e. I can come up with dozens of reasons to do this so I can rationalize it, so I can do it without all this guilt. My marriage is messed up, so that's reason 1.

f. What my spouse doesn't know won't hurt them, and I'm so smart I can hide it from them as long as I want to.

g. Everyone is doing it, probably my spouse to, so it's my turn.

h. Life is short and rules are for conformists.

i. Oh god that sex was the hottest thing ever, no wonder so many people have affairs.

ETC.

Only later do you realize that the affair never helped the marriage problems at all and it was all about your selfish entitlement and lack of boundaries and lack of empathy for your spouse that let you do it. Blaming the victim of your affair only adds insult to injury. The AP was never really in love with you and you probably could never have a real relationship with them outside the affair, because they were faking their whole persona to get you into bed.

So don't let that foggy thinking cloud your judgment.

"you need to get real good at her love language or she'll go off and cheat again and it will all be your fault."

Foley - No, I do not for a moment believe it was my fault. And no, what I take from it is that there needs to be better communication when emotional, physical, or whatever needs are not being met. For whatever reason, which we have not discussed or explored, she didn't discuss with me nor I her. So, she may have had her reasons that contributed to her affair, but none of them are valid reasons to have one. There are numerous ways to handle it if she felt something was missing. I could argue that in my own way, I felt the same - her lack of my love language, yet I didn't run off and have an affair.

My point is, that I can say I wasn't the best husband, or at least had areas of improvement, and at the same time say that those deficiencies are not valid reasons to have an affair and I don't feel culpable in the least.

W

You have all the time in the world to evaluate your wife and decide what you want to do.

And yes I'm sure it feels really weird.

But from what you have described to us as well she feels uncomfortable as well.

No reason she can ever come up with will justify the affair. It just won't.

I think you need to keep it simple right now.

Who is she?

Will she be wife material again?

How much do I love her? Enough to desire her? Enough to fight for? Enough to someday take a chance and trust her again?

Some spouses can forgive. Some cannot. Which type of spouse are you?

Like I said you have all the time in the world to figure this out.

Do not think your wife does not have any questions of her own.

Will he bail on me and the marriage? Will he ever forgive me? Does he still love me? Does he hate me?

All I can say is be patient, both of you find your balance and communicate with each other honestly and respectfully.

HM