SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What an extraordinary post by Stretch.

His perfectly made points address not only TTA’s situation but elements can be applied to all cases of infidelity.

TTA, I’ve been on these boards as a lurker and member for several years and I can say that a successful reconciliation is what we all want those initial catastrophic weeks. Even when the cheater isn’t doing all the right things, like your wife, the desire is to salvage life as we knew it. There is nothing I would not have done to keep my sweet family together – at the beginning.

But as we process this betrayal and, over time, as we see the true cost of the cheater’s behavior many of us know that this is not how we personally define marriage.

This is so so so fresh for you – good God – you’re not even 6 months out. You are still in the earliest part of the struggle. You have just stepped onto the roller coaster. There are revelations still to come. Sadly, there are miles to go before you sleep.

But you are smart and deliberate and cautious.

So, my friend, practice extreme self-care. Be gentle on yourself. And your wife, she needs to continue moving heaven and earth to reassure you while YOU decide your next course of action.

Stretch,

What you wrote was profoundly and intelligently well thought out, obviously from your background and experience.

And quite frankly, there is not much that could be argued with in your analysis (I'll take your word on the statistics). Obviously I have not read as much as you but I understand what you are saying, AND I also understand that the odds of a successfuly reconciliation are less in any kind of infidelity when it is the female who cheats.

I also agree with your explanation somewhat of the 40-50 year dynamic. I think that is why there are a shitload of 40-50 year old women on here who are WW after decades of "happy" marriage, and I do understand a lot of the reasons, some of which you I am sure know but did not expound upon.

These points were also spot on

(1) Her attitude on infidelity in general. Not sure if her boundaries are the term I would use before this but is has been no secret to me that her advice to friends of hers or ours or opinion has been pretty consistent that folks can work through it. I do believe her when she said that she would not leave if I had done it. She I believe would be much more highly disposed to leave me if I was financially unfaithful or had some addiction like gambling or drugs .

(2) her attitudes have evolved from her environment. She has seen so many hook ups, been hit on so much, and is constantly around successful men. However, there ARE women out there in the same situation who still have not crossed the line. I see them all the time too.

So, that still leaves me with the dilema of what to do about it. I do believe she loves me. I do believe she will do everything she can to prove that.

But your analysis of ther 5-7 years could be right, or it could be one month. That was my point when I think I stated that there are no absolute guarantees on this shit that it will NEVER happen again that some folks spend thousands of dollars in MC or IC looking for. I don't even know if I will be alive in 5-7 years.

I think that ANY BH or BW for that matter who decides to try to R takes a gamble and must be prepared to lose if you want to play the game. Right now, I feel that unless she has repeatedly lied to me (TT I guess we would call it), I feel I want to take the gamble. By the way, seeing a few threads on here about it happening again with a second wife also makes it quite apparent that there is also no guarantee that a second wife will not do the same thing.

If I divorced my wife and ever remarried , my guess is the new wife would be from the same socio economic strata that I am in, and all statistics I have seen indicate that women's attitude on infidelity and willingness to do it INCREASES with their economic status because they are not dependent on men.

Maybe it's my attitude toward sex also. I know there are men here who have had their wives tell them that they LOVE another man or thought they did. Therfe are men responding here who have been cheated on multile times for years, whose wives carried on affairs right in front of them, etc. My heart bleeds for them. I could NOT deal with that at all, and if I had heard that this decision would have been real easy for me.

I am hurt and angry but not devastated and not ready to jump off a bridge over this. This woman brought my two great kids into the world, has been a great companion, a great mother, and also now an unfaithful wife. That I have to deal with and you know it is not easy.

And Stretch, thanks for also adding in your op-inion on telling my kids and the family. I got a few posts advising me to blow this up to everyone I knew, which I resisted. I still think that was the correct decision.

The plan is to move forward and do the polygraph. I am NOT accepting defeat so easily. All of us BH on here are fighting an uphill battle, and all of us are facing odds that are not so great, yet MOST of us try like hell to do it. The guys who do not probably do not post here at all.

Lastly, I will not accept any form of open marriage. I have seen enough ( acquaintances and neighbors ) to understand all of the pitfalls. My heart aches for those on here who are basically in open marriage they did not sign up for but are unable to extricate themselves.

Again, I appreciate your well put information. Wish me luck.

Man Of La Mancha and Drifter, I do get what he says. We all deal with it our own way.

Great post TTA.

You get it.

Do the poly.

Continue to fight for the marriage and let your WW fight for it as well.

That is the real test! Her investment in the marriage......

HM

Great post TTA.

You get it.

Do the poly.

Continue to fight for the marriage and let your WW fight for it as well.

That is the real test! Her investment in the marriage..

Happyman, not sure if I get it. This shit is hard to "get it" on. What I think I do get is reality, and as long as I do not have blinders on I have a chance to be OK.

I have read on this forum "you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it"

What I would also state is "you have to be willing to get cheated on again in order to reconcile". I think anyone who thinks they have a totally ironclad foolproof reconciliation is doing a form of rug sweeping, or a better term might be wishful hoping.

My wife will be home shortly, came home early to be with me for a little bit before I leave tonight. I am glad she is doing that. I got a PM from someone I respect who is more a "veteran" than me hoping I can let go for a short time this week end and enjoy some time with her without the cloud. I am going to take that advice.

The poly will happen. My goal is to have a date set for that next week sometime.

The post by STRETCH was eye opening and profound to me. I could relate and understand a lot of what he was saying.

I'm not a quitter. But I do not believe I am a patsy either.

Self Rescuer and Prickle Patch, thanks for the support.

You are doing great TTA. Stretch's analysis was great, and your response was even better.

You have done a great job in dealing with this whole crappy situation. You wife screwed up big time - she said and did things in the beginning of her fog induced phase, as a lot of ws say and do during that initial "fog" period.

Some of them have reconciled and some have not. Some have reconciled, only to find out that their spouses have cheated on them again.

Your wife has done everything most spouses would require to consider reconciling. Only you and your gut can tell you what and what you should not do. Just like you gut told you not to expose her when you were told by others to expose her.

There are no guarantees for any of us, with the exception that we are ll are going to die one day. With what you have, and how the two of you have made so much progress, you would be crazy not to R.

If anything should change in a year or seven years from now you will deal with it then, and I have no doubt, from how you handled it now, you will do great if and when that time should arise.

Hang in there - you are doing great.

TTA:

I want first to say (without trying to butter you up just to do it) that I personally think you are doing great, much better than most of us did when we were at your stage after D-Day. As I have said before, I think your position as a corporate executive has helped you develop a set of skills similar to those of a high ranking officer, who does not lose his head on the battlefield and can plan even during emotional duress (or maybe it is the reverse, you have gotten to where you are because you had this ability, I don’t know).

However, I wanted to add some of my thoughts about what I feel has transpired so far in your thread.

I want to make a disclaimer first: even though I am a shrink by profession, that does not make me an expert on infidelity, or make my opinion more valuable than anyone else’s here. Also, even though I do have a psychodynamic background, please understand that all my attempts at interpreting some actions or what was reportedly said or done are speculations, as I have not actually talked to the persons (since this is an anonymous Internet forum). Also, English is not my first language, so if at times I may not make perfect sense, or my phrases seem twisted, please do not take offense.

That being said, I want to congratulate Stretch on what I perceive as a wonderful, and in my opinion accurate, post (where he explains his point of view on the dynamic of the WW in a high powered job, and her initial statements which have caused so much uproar in here). The only thing I can think of adding to that is, in my opinion, the topic of unspoken competition. You stated that your wife is a very competitive woman, and you expressed your opinion (which I agree with, BTW) that she felt good being able to “get” the man that so many other women were yearning for. However, think about competition also in another sense: is it possible that some of her choices were, in a twisted manner, because she was in competition with you, too? In high powered couples, there can be a lot of concerted effort towards achieving common goals, and that makes the couples succeed more so than others, because both are very motivated, and very intelligent. However, there may also be some internal competition, about “who is better?”. That can be either in the financial , or professional domains, or (in some cases) in being able to ‘get one over’ the other. From what I understand from your posts, even though your wife is very successful in her company, it is still YOU that has the higher powered job, and probably are being perceived as more successful. How does she perceive that? Have you felt, in the past, that she is somewhat envious of your (higher) success, and therefore has tried, in some subtle ways, to disparage you? Could it be that her affair is, in addition to something to give her ego kibbles because she “still has it”, an indirect (and unconscious) way of “getting something over you?” Her affair was, as you have described it, not just one of convenience, but also (after the initial encounter, which was more spontaneous) very well planned and deliberately done so that Nobody would catch on. Which makes me think of someone who wants (in addition to getting protection from consequences) to “prove” to herself to the unknowing spouse (even though HE does not know, but SHE will know) that SHE is “better” and can do something that he cannot figure out…If that is the case, then, unless this elephant in  the room is also addressed, either in individual therapy or in marital therapy (which, by the way, has to be WANTED BY HER, not REQUESTED BY YOU, as anything that is perceived as forced on her will be consciously or unconsciously rejected) it could generate similar problems in the future. In other words, if she were to perceive things this way (and she may actually have this drive unconsciously, therefore the need for self-discovery through therapy) she will be prone to repeating it, with the caveat that she would just have to be more cautious the next time. After all, you can only get so many polygraphs, before you will tire of them, and give it up…I am not saying that she thinks that way now- I agree that she now believes she loves you, and she wants to reconcile, and never do it again. However, it should be her inner drive, not the fear of being caught, that should be driving her to stay faithful to you. Fear of punishment only works so much, if it is not backed by the inner interdiction and realization that something is inherently wrong to do. Her stance on infidelity (that it is not a deal breaker) is what raised the heckles of so many here. Until she is able to have full empathy about what it means for you, and FEEL FOR YOU, and put herself in your shoes, she would still not “get it”. It is that kind of inner restraint, backed by an emotional realization of the WRONGFULNESS of the act, that keeps most people on the “straight and narrow”. THAT is why so many people here were doubtful of her being “remorseful” and not just “regretful”. Until she has that “AHA” moment of realization how this has affected you, and how much it hurts you, she is just having “regret”, not “remorse”.

TTA, I am so impressed with how you are handling and processing this, and dealing with the projected anger on here, and THINKING about what others have to say.

I wish you the best.

I just wanted to add that newly caught WS DO say crazy things. My WH of 21 years said "I never really loved you". My kids heard it, it was horrible. A month later, and TO THIS DAY, he doesn't remember saying it...or denies it, who knows but him. But it makes sense in the context of justifying the A.

You will be OK, and kudos to you for hanging on through this huge thread.

[This message edited by latebloomer45 at 2:31 PM, February 11th (Thursday)]

TTA - maybe you do indeed "get it" but after only 6 months it just isn't likely you could process all this to a point of emotional resolution. In other words, you need to accept that you have a lot of painful work ahead of you whether you R or D.

One more thing: you acknowledged the exceptional post from Stretch but I'm not sure you fully understood his prognosis. She will cheat again. Nothing is ever a 100% thing but the point is that he doesn't see it as a risk but it's a near-certainty. He's asking you if you are willing to reconcile now knowing that you are going to go through this all again in the not-so-distant future. I'd rather be dead than to be caught in a revolving door of infidelity - but maybe that's just me.

Adding that the post by longtime sucker - another professional - collaborates everything that Stretch said and should tell you all you need to know about the chances of a repeat performance by her. And yes, she will be much more careful and it will take more digging by you to catch her. If you don't want to live with this then either accept that you will have to share her, sexually, and just tell her to be discreet OR you need to end the marriage and move on. In some sense she has simply outgrown you.

[This message edited by theDrifter at 2:35 PM, February 11th (Thursday)]

And Stretch, thanks for also adding in your opinion on telling my kids and the family. I got a few posts advising me to blow this up to everyone I knew, which I resisted. I still think that was the correct decision.

Timetoact

I’m normally in favor of exposing affairs far and wide. The reason for telling everyone is to blow up the affair. I think your wife’s affair was more sport sex than emotional so it was relatively easy to end. It’s over and doesn’t need a stake in its heart.

She BELIEVES right now this will not happen again.....but it can.....more likely statistically it will happen in the next 5-7 years.....

Sure she backtracked when she saw your displeasure that threatened her comfortable empty nest life.

stretch

Women care very much about their reputation with friends and family. You can only expose the affair once. It might be smart to keep it in your quiver of arrows for future use. Why expend an arrow and gain nothing? Right now everyone thinks she’s a good and faithful wife. Let them continue to think so.

If she has another affair exposing both affairs at the same time would be much more dramatic. Here you were a saint, forgave one affair and didn’t even tell anyone. Then the &^%$ had another. She will be very much the villain and she knows it.

If you tell them now they will ultimately come to terms with her being a cheater. They will forgive her because how can they not? You did. Then the second affair will not seem as bad. After all we all knew what she was capable of.

If they know about the first affair then learning about the second will be sad news indeed. If they learn of both at the same time it will be outrageous.

What I’m saying might not be very nice but keep exposure as a veiled threat. Lake a sword of Damocles hanging over her head should she have a second affair.

I have read on this forum "you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it"

What I would also state is "you have to be willing to get cheated on again in order to reconcile".

Timetoact

By the way, the above is great.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 4:36 PM, February 11th (Thursday)]

I want to make my position clear: I am not an absolute supporter of either D or R. Either one is an acceptable solution, as long as YOU are OK with it and walk into it with your eyes wide open of the implications. However, while D (preferred by some because of the simplicity of the resolution) is like cutting the Gordian Knot, R is like slowly disentangling the threads in the same knot. It just takes a lot more patience and time, and a lot more frustration (and some other possible tangles). You just have to be aware of the possibilities, both positive and negative of either option. I think you would be up to the task for either, as long as you are not the only one trying to disentangle it and solve the problem

On telling the world about her affair: IMHO, that can only serve two possible purposes: either to "blow up" the affair ( in your case, this seems to already have been done) or to shame her if you are planning to divorce her or to just humiliate her as part of a "scorched earth" tactic. It most likely would not endear you to her, as she is, I think, a very proudful woman and may not take deliberate humiliation well. She may actually become more defensive if that were the case. If, however, SHE were to tell everybody, like Walloped's wife, this could be seen as an act of atonement for the pain she caused you. For this act to have that quality though, (i.e. atonement) it would have to be initiated by her, not requested by you.

what the Drifter, Longtime Sucker and Graywolf said !!!

I have read on this forum "you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it"

What I would also state is "you have to be willing to get cheated on again in order to reconcile".

Timetoact

By the way, the above is great

t/j I completely disagree. You do not have to be willing to be cheated on again. You have to be prepared for the risk that it might happen. Two, very different things. One is accepting that it will happen. The other is understanding that it is a possibility, and like any risk, a) varies depending on the person and situation, and b) can be mitigated via a variety of actions and steps. End t/j.

t/j I completely disagree. You do not have to be willing to be cheated on again. You have to be prepared for the risk that it might happen. Two, very different things. One is accepting that it will happen. The other is understanding that it is a possibility, and like any risk, a) varies depending on the person and situation, and b) can be mitigated via a variety of actions and steps.

Walloped

How about you have to be willing to take the risk of being cheated on again?

[This message edited by Graywolf at 7:49 PM, February 11th (Thursday)]

Graywolf,

Agree with that.

And that is true for any new relationship. The difference of course is that with reconciliation, you are dealing with someone who has already done it. Now, it may be that past behavior is a good indicator of future results, or, depending on the spouse, it may be that the propensity to cheat is less with a new appreciation and understanding of the devastation it causes. The key is, like with any risk, to understand the risk and take steps to mitigate it.

t/j I completely disagree. You do not have to be willing to be cheated on again. You have to be prepared for the risk that it might happen. Two, very different things. One is accepting that it will happen. The other is understanding that it is a possibility, and like any risk, a) varies depending on the person and situation, and b) can be mitigated via a variety of actions and steps.

Walloped

How about you have to be willing to take the risk of being cheated on again?

Graywolf,

Agree with that.

And that is true for any new relationship. The difference of course is that with reconciliation, you are dealing with someone who has already done it. Now, it may be that past behavior is a good indicator of future results, or, depending on the spouse, it may be that the propensity to cheat is less with a new appreciation and understanding of the devastation it causes. The key is, like with any risk, to understand the risk and take steps to mitigate it.

This was my thought process exactly - I already knew pretty much his worst and all the liabilities of staying with him. And I thought back to when we were dating and what was known then, and what I could figure out, with the benefit of hindsight. I looked at the probability of me being happy alone - that was and is pretty high. I like my own company. So I can make a divorce decision any time, and be content that way, but the odds of a man who presents well during dating, turning out to be not so nice? 50/50 proposition. So I'm sticking with the guy I've got now.

Life is risky. Choosing is risky. Sometimes we get it wrong. Sometimes we get it right.

Timetoact. Walloped touches on an excellent point. With an empty nest especially you have some luxuries here. You also have a barginning chip to ofer your wife. Let me explain. If you can R here, the current affair.....have a discussion with your wife at that conclusion. Tell her you understand no one can insure what the future is. Tell her YOU, YOURSELF, DO NOT WANT TO PLAY SHERLOCK HOLMES with her going forward. Tell her if she will TELL you this type of behavior is going to happen again or HAS just happened again that you would greatly appreciate her honesty....and by recociling with her now you EXPECT that honesty from her in the future. But if she tries to hide it......and you catch her .....because periodically you WILL put a PI on her for this reason alone.....then the split will not be amicable and you WILL tell her children and everyone else in her world and her job....you won't care the monetary cost to yourself....in short, you will blow her world and reputation sky high. If she is honorable if there is a next time, if she has the personal integrity to be honest the split will be amicable and her infidelity will remain between only the two of you. Challenge her integrity....tell her you expect it of her. If she has integrity I don't see her not admitting it if it happens again. In this way you don't have ANYTHING to lose R now.....and if you two achieve that then you will never go through this again. Sure you will be disappointed in her but this turmoil will not repeat. Tailor this plan to your specifics but it can give you peace of mind going forward. stretch

Graywolf is also pointing you to this path stretch

Stretch,

Timetoact. Walloped touches on an excellent point. With an empty nest especially you have some luxuries here. You also have a barginning chip to ofer your wife. Let me explain. If you can R here, the current affair.....have a discussion with your wife at that conclusion. Tell her you understand no one can insure what the future is. Tell her YOU, YOURSELF, DO NOT WANT TO PLAY SHERLOCK HOLMES with her going forward. Tell her if she will TELL you this type of behavior is going to happen again or HAS just happened again that you would greatly appreciate her honesty....and by recociling with her now you EXPECT that honesty from her in the future. But if she tries to hide it......and you catch her .....because periodically you WILL put a PI on her for this reason alone.....then the split will not be amicable and you WILL tell her children and everyone else in her world and her job....you won't care the monetary cost to yourself....in short, you will blow her world and reputation sky high. If she is honorable if there is a next time, if she has the personal integrity to be honest the split will be amicable and her infidelity will remain between only the two of you. Challenge her integrity....tell her you expect it of her. If she has integrity I don't see her not admitting it if it happens again. In this way you don't have ANYTHING to lose R now.....and if you two achieve that then you will never go through this again. Sure you will be disappointed in her but this turmoil will not repeat. Tailor this plan to your specifics but it can give you peace of mind going forward. stretch

Posts: 24 | Registered: Dec 2015 | From: rocky mountains

The above makes some sense to me, maybe via a post nup, maybe without. It's interesting, I know I have no intention of being in CIA mode forever. My thought process was to use a surprise polygraph somewhere down the road would be more effective than guessing when to put a PI on her and telling her I was going to do it.

If you have time, read what Longtime Sucker wrote to me about the "competition" aspect that he thinks played a part in this. This woman IS competitively what we would call a "barracuda", and I have always told her I would hate to be anyone in business that got in her way. Her and I differ. If you throw up a wall, I will try to find a way around it. Her first reaction would be to run right through it or knock it down. I am no emotional pussycat but she off the chart.

Walloped, I agree with your rewording of my statement. To reconcile you must be willing to accept the risk that it will happen again I ACCEPT THAT RISK AT THIS POINT.

Drifter, your position seems to be that I either accept being a cuckold or divorce right now. Stretch gave some percentages in his opinion that she will do it again. If we believe that past behavior is a predictor of future behavior it is not hard to conclude that the chances of it happening again are greater. Are the chance greater than a WW who has been fucking guys on Ashley Madison , or greater than a WW who has been fucking multiple OM, or the next door neighbor. I already stated that I understand that most female infidelity in a marriage produces more bad outcomes than the other way around. But that is because in Not Just Friends and other books it states that most in the case of most female infidelity the wife is already checked out before the sex begins.

Neither Stretch nor Longtime Sucker has suggested that in their remarks.

Every BH on here, myself inc;lauded is fighting an uphill battle. My eyes are wide open, but your suggestion that I am fine with sharing my wife in the future unless I divorce her now is a projection on what might happen, not what has. I'll leave it at that.

Been a long day. When I left my wife this afternoon I told her again no big mushy cards for Valentines Day but told her to go buy herself a nice dress and that we were going to have a decent week end for the first time in a while. And after tomorrow I am going off these meds. I am calming down enough for that.

TTA,

I believe you are doing a great job, waiting to poly to R and taking time.

I just would like to add that, as you know, your marriage will not be the same…among other things it means, as others have pointed out, that she may cheat in the future or not and that you are willing to take that chance if R, or at least to give her the chance to make you feel that it won’t happen again.

But form another angle, Your WW seems to be willing to do anything to save her marriage even if there are no guaranties that you will be able to R… I am sorry but R is not for everyone and you are in this journey for a very short period. I believe you are 100% into try if poly goes well, but you will need much more time to know if her affair was a deal breaker or not.

In a nut shell, you both are willing to take a great risk.

Now you know she is able to cheat.

Now she knows you are able to D.

Give it time, have a plan and listen to your self.

Good luck

PS, IMO telling her that if she cheats again you will expose her and tell everyone, IMO is a bad idea, she must be willing to be with you out of love not fear.