SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

TTA - you know the saying, "Misery loves company".

There's a huge recruitment process where bullies get together to insult a man's wife as much as the target can tolerate and beyond.

I've seen a few of these guys target 100% of strong-minded men who make any attempt to recover their marriage after their wife cheats on them. They use vile language to describe the woman's cheating behaviors, to "poison the water" so to speak - to try to make you so repulsed by your wife's actions and supposed thoughts/motives as they describe, that you can't look at her without seeing their descriptives. They literally try to make you want to throw up every time you even think about her. You can see it in every post they make to you. You're in good company. They did it to Walloped too.

That's why they tell you a million and one times. It's a way to psychologically manipulate you into joining their team and dumping your wife without a second glance.

I really thought hard about not replying to this, but...

You can be entitled to your opinions but not your facts. No one in the last 10 pages has said "Divorce her." What they have been saying is: is her change of heart real? how do you know? and be prepared that it is not.

So thank you for making broad assumptions about my, and others, motivations.

[For the record, I was in the camp for Walloped and SpaceGhost reconciling, not D.]

WORN DOWN

You can be entitled to your opinions but not your facts. No one in the last 10 pages has said "Divorce her." What they have been saying is: is her change of heart real? how do you know? and be prepared that it is not.

I'll answer this one for you

IS HER CHANGE OF HEART REAL????

Now what would be your suggestion on how to answer that one. She has given me NC, total transparency, answered every question I have asked her, begged me to just let her sleep in our bed with me, and has offered to get herself hooked up to a machine as many times as I ask her to. Now how about you telling me what would convince you her change of heart is real???? And if you go back to quitting her job immediately, I have explained that one ten times and save your breath.

HOW DO YOU KNOW???

Does that mean I get an ironclad guarantee it can never happen again. What constitutes me knowing???? I'm all ears. It seems like there are a ton of folks on here who thought they knew but didn't. So how about you telling me how I will know. Seems like Walloped is still struggling with that one way further out in this than me.

BE PREPARED IF IT IS NOT?

OK Worn Down, I have been to an attorney. I have told you and anyone else reading this that I can have her served in less time than it probably takes you to get to work in morning. I have no financial worry in that I can buy her out of an expensive house tomorrow morning. If it blows up, yes I have to tell my kids and families. Is being prepared having a script for that???

Now I'd like you to tell me how the first two questions you posed can be answered with absolute certainty, and what you would to to be prepared for the worst more than what I have done.

I am NOT convinced my wife will cheat again in six months like you seem to think she will, and you are entitled to your opinion. The person who figures out how to be positive on your first two questions will write a book and put this wonderful forum out of business and b eco me more wealthy than Donald Trump very quickly.

I keep hearing actions over time and that there is no shortcut. Now quite frankly if you were for Space Ghost reconciling we just see things differently. And I can assure you I would have acted a lot quicker if my wife's phone locator told me she was in a hotel 200 miles from home when I was out of town. I already believe I have taken more action in one month than he did in six before he ever posted.

I'm trying my best. I still love my wife. That does not mean I will live in an emotional environment that is unsafe for me. Now if you can answer any of my questions without proclaiming how shitty my outcome is guaranteed to be I am all ears.

Hey TTA, I have read this entire thread as it has developed, and I just want to say that I completely understand your strategy right now. I think you are doing great, and kudos to you for hanging in there.

I think you are getting a lot of flack from betrayed men because your wife has fairly quickly gotten to the point that so many wayward wives don't ever get to, or take forever getting to. Maybe for them it is too good to be true. It appears that your wife really gets it as much as anyone can, and is doing everything she can to show you she is aware of the pain she has caused. I think that speaks volumes of her "real" character. Yeah, she may be completely snowing you, but my gut doesn't tell me that she is.

I don't have any specific advice, but I wanted to post to give you one more voice of encouragement. I think you are acting honorably and with integrity. It is easy to lash out when you are wronged, but it takes great strength of character to move beyond a victim mentality and work towards understanding and forgiveness. Some may think that doing that makes you weak or worse, but I see it as strength.

Whatever happens over the next several months/years in your relationship, I sense that you will remain a man of honor, and worthy of respect. Good luck, and good wishes.

[This message edited by Gettingoveritall at 11:41 PM, February 9th (Tuesday)]

Okay finally, a "response" from TTA. Lets get a few things straight here, "buddy"

The only reason I have had to repeat myself is because posters have been addressing me instead of addressing you. I make my comments and get responses from everyone else. They should be addressing you, not me.

I have never said you have to divorce her. I have read your entire thread, and draw my conclusions ONLY from what you have said and not others. You have described the kind of person she is and should go back and read what YOU have said about her.

As some others were saying, my only question was if you knew that she did not think what she did was a (lets use your term) "deal breaker" would you still want to be with here ? And no, not all wayward wives think the way your wife would if this were true.

I never said she wanted to be with pretty boy and I get that she is independent and successful. Great! Whoopy do for you! I said she liked what she did (according to you, "the chase" or "the need to win him" when he wasn't paying attention to the lesser women).

And the reason I said "men" and not "man" was to generalise it and not make it about pretty boy but just the "chase" or "hedonistic" pleasure she went after. This was not to say that I thought she had done this more than once. By you saying I should not have said "men", you ARE implying that it was particularly about pretty boy and she had some feeling for him.

I hope you two have the kind of marriage you two want. Shooting down what others are saying is fine and acceptable in any forum so I don't take offence at what you say but will always clarify what I have said and why.

And normally I do not respond to what the others say to me instead of the OP on a thread - I really thought it needed clarification this time so as to help you understand what I was saying.

Anyway, I have got your answer now, which I understand to be all wayward spouses behave this way and you know what you are doing about it. You have your bases "covered".

And I too, was hoping SpaceGhost would have reconciled with a genuinely sorry wife!

TTA - I still feel you are in a good place. Its one that still sucks and I hate that we are all here. When you (we) deal with liars and cheaters... we never really know what to believe. All we can do is make a decision every single day about what we want to do today. Somedays it turns out the decision was a good one... somedays, we learn otherwise. None of us have a magic 8 ball. I sincerely hope that this all works out for you and your wife.

Having said that.... My WH and I are well into reconciliation. I read the posts on this thread and am so thankful that I never posted the shit my WH said to me early on... when he was deep in the fog and left me for her. I'm so sorry, your wife words early on are being used in such a non helpful way.

I agree with Worndown completely, in everything he has said.

Now for k8la, let me remind k8, none of us makes commission off of this stuff. None of us are personally invested because we have our own lives to worry about.

However, to lump those who state some objections to Timetoact's path and accuse those objecters as some type of 'bully club', I will state this. SI is not Survivingreconciliation.com, SI is surviving infidelity, whichever path the BS decides to choose. If we all sat in a circle and did one big 'kumbaya', and told TTA everything he wanted to hear and sat back and didn't express concerns, then we are enablers of which I refuse to be one. So before calling anybody bullies, I would suggest you heed that.

Further, I support Worndown's assertion. People aren't suggesting TTA to divorce at this point. Most 'dissenters' (if that's what we are now labelled) have good motivations and ask really good questions and are getting picked apart, even by TTA.

My motivation has been quite simple for the last so many pages. IMO, people need to stop being a 'yes' man to TTA and stop turning this board into a war zone.

Whatever TTA decides to do at this point is on him. He owns it now. I am actually withholding my opinions. I am more worried about the sanctity of this board which IMO is crashing hard by a group of posters who love to turn the guns on each other and a string of newly betrayeds (dating back to last Summer) who are quick to jump after people for offering their opinions.

If they think that's bad, they should go on to other boards that encourage cheating or who bodyslams and ridicules newly betrayeds. This board is quite gentle in that regard.

Western,

Since you are in agreement with Worn Down, I'll ask you the same questions I asked him above that I have no answer for from him.

He asked

(1) Is her change real?? It is obvious one or two sentences she made negates everything I have remarked that she has done in your opinion also. So instead of "agreeing" how about a CONSTRUCTIVE answer on what she needs to do that she is not doing NOW to convince me her change is real?????

WHAT WOULD CONVINCE YOU???

(2) how do I know??? What would make YOU know for sure that I am missing. What action should she take NOW to convince YOU other than what I have stated

(3) AM I PREPARED FOR THEC WORST? What would YOU do that I have no to prepare for that??

Now if you answer that you might be helpful rather than repeating a sentence she spoke on D Day over and over

WARNING:

House, I disagree with the unforgiving acts and unforgiving people line. To me, some acts are unforgivable.

You know, you kind of just made my point.

There are POW camp victims who never got past it (the majority?) and those who did (Louis Zamperini from WWII, McCain from Vietnam, google on Eva Kor.)

I don't know what my limit is for forgiveness, assuming I have one. Might be infinite? Might completely be a choice? Or am I subjected to internal currents I have no conscious control over or ability to influence? I just don't know. Whatever it is, I am sure it is not the same as TTA's or yours. And forgiveness does not mean R or D anyway.

TTA, the main answer to your question of how do you know is time. Does she slouch back into the old patterns, or is there real change, which indicates real learning? Learning isn't instantaneous either. It is a slog. She is likely in wax-on/wax-off mode (from The Karate Kid (the first one!)) while the new patterns replace the old.

I would struggle with her traveling a lot. You will be in a mode yourself where not finding any signs of cheating means you failed to prove infidelity, vice proving fidelity. Be patient with yourself. From my profile, copied here...

I read the book "Deep Survival" some years ago, where it talked about how people survive catastrophes like plane crashes or getting lost. I immediately saw the parallels to discovering infidelity, where you find yourself instantly lost in a hostile emotional landscape every bit as stressful (though maybe not quite as life-threatening) as getting dropped into a jungle. So here's the 12 points, and they are generally valid:

http://www.securitywhip.com/2010/07/18/the-12-rules-of-survival/

1. Perceive and Believe

Don’t fall into the deadly trap of denial or of immobilizing fear. Admit it: You’re really in trouble and you’re going to have to get yourself out.

2. Stay Calm – Use Your Anger

In the initial crisis, survivors are not ruled by fear; instead, they make use of it. Their fear often feels like (and turns into) anger, which motivates them and makes them feel sharper.

3. Think, Analyze, and Plan

Survivors quickly organize, set up routines, and institute discipline.

4. Take Correct, Decisive Action

Survivors are willing to take risks to save themselves and others. But they are simultaneously bold and cautious in what they will do.

5. Celebrate your success

Survivors take great joy from even their smallest successes. This helps keep motivation high and prevents a lethal plunge into hopelessness. It also provides relief from the unspeakable strain of a life-threatening situation.

6. Be a Rescuer, Not a Victim

Survivors are always doing what they do for someone else, even if that someone is thousands of miles away. There are numerous strategies for doing this.

7. Enjoy the Survival Journey

It may seem counterintuitive, but even in the worst circumstances, survivors find something to enjoy, some way to play and laugh.

8. See the Beauty

Survivors are attuned to the wonder of their world, especially in the face of mortal danger. The appreciation of beauty, the feeling of awe, opens the senses to the environment.

9. Believe That You Will Succeed

It is at this point, following what I call “the vision,” that the survivor’s will to live becomes firmly fixed.

10. Surrender

Yes you might die. In fact, you will die — we all do. But perhaps it doesn’t have to be today. Don’t let it worry you. Forget about rescue. Everything you need is inside you already.

11. Do Whatever Is Necessary

Survivors have a reason to live and are willing to bet everything on themselves. They have what psychologists call meta-knowledge: They know their abilities and do not over or underestimate them. They believe that anything is possible and act accordingly.

12. Never Give Up

Survivors are not easily discouraged by setbacks. They accept that the environment is constantly changing and know that they must adapt. When they fall, they pick themselves up and start the entire process over again, breaking it down into manageable bits.

I understand House. Your thoughts are well reasoned

TTA, the main answer to your question of how do you know is time

House of Plane. Could not agree more. All I can know is what I know and believe now. Actions not words over time I think is what most recommend. As far as forgiveness, probably every one of us struggles with that term and how to define it.

Staying might mean I forgive, but does not mean I forget.

I would struggle with her traveling a lot. You will be in a mode yourself where not finding any signs of cheating means you failed to prove infidelity,

House, I struggle with both of us travelling a lot. It sucks. i many times envy those that get up in their own bed every morning, kiss their wife good morning, and go to the same place to work. Business travel is a lonely, solitary existence at 40,000 feet up in the air while the rest o the world enjoys their families. But we do what we have to do. I know there are folks here who work their asses off overnight 11-7AM shifts while I sleep and are not compensated nearly as well as i am, so I am not to be felt sorry for. But you are right, the constant separation, is difficult and will be more difficult now. Temptation is everywhere and loneliness is rampant, especially for people who are not "loners".

I believe if I totally insisted, she would quit her job. And then what??? Either she sits in the house and does nothing or takes a meaningless position. Does that insulate me from her doing it again???/

I've thought about it but I do not see how. There are a ton of betrayed husbands on here whose WW got it on with coaches, trainers, co workers in office parking lot, neighbors, best friends, relatives, and the list goes on and on.

I think ultimately getting through this requires acceptance of two things

(1) that it happened

(2) that there is not one thing in the world that you can do to be 100% fool proof that it can never happen again.

So yup, I hear you about the travel, but I accept it as an inherent risk that would not be totally alleviated no matter what my wife chose to do as an occupation.

If there is one silver lining to this shit, it was that I did not have to worry that every morning when she walked out the door that she would be fucking OM in his van or truck or a hotel at lunchtime. That i do not think I could handle.

Thanks also for the list on surviving. Some very good points. I will save it.

I agree with those that say that what WW said in the beginning was stupid but don't all WS say stupid stuff when they were first confronted? She may have imbedded it in her head that You were doing the same thing but that was how she justified what she was doing in her own head. No doubt they all have their justifications or reasons they convince themselves that what they're doing is okay. So is that why she said the things she did?

Does she really believe that if the tables were turned she would be okay with it? Maybe, or she's hoping that by saying that she can convince You to be okay with it. Then again maybe to justify the A to herself she convinced herself that she would be okay with it rather it's true or not.

These are just a few thoughts about what she said on Dday. Maybe it will give you some ideas about what she was thinking at the time or why she said what she did.

Hopefully, you can get the poly soon so you can get more of the answers you've been seeking. You're doing well and she seems to be doing everything she can. Hopefully it works out for you. Good luck. Stay strong.

TTA, I have read your story and the comments here, and agree you have things together about as well as a person could in this situation.

I can certainly add to the chorus that say cheaters say the most AMAZING things when they are caught. Those first conversations are absolutely insane. I look back on ours with years of perspective and shake my head at some of the things she said. Although she never went so far as yours did with her initial reaction, it was bad enough... I think their brains scramble a bit when we rock them with being exposed - after all, we were never supposed to know!

With that said, years out and reconciled about as good as a couple could be, I can tell you it is REALLY hard... The images, reminders, doubts - they wear on you, no matter how 'good' are spouses are. You sound tough enough to take it. Trust your gut at all times going forward. Just be honest with yourself about how you are feeling and what you want and you will be fine.

If you are willing to look at her, her actions, reactions, etc, and be honest with yourself about what you see in those things - and if you can be happy married to that person going forward - you will make the right decision.

Time,

Deciding to reconcile is a very difficult decision, as I am sure you know. I have found some posters are kinda of caustic. For me I need to just see there name and pond jump.

There are no clear answers if your wife has changed. You know that. It is now a wait and see if actions meet words. Does the attitude stay remorseful.

One thing I read I would like to address is why for awoman an ea is considered by alot to be worse. It all goes back to an age old saying "women need to feel love to have sex in a relationship and men need to have sex to feel loved".

I am not so sure about the under 30 crowd anymore. Changing times seem to see sex something I heard called sports fucking.

You have been vigalant and seem like your on a well thought out path, with objectives and boundaries.

I think some people are of the ditch them attitude.

Either path reconciliation or divorce there is no real winner. For me my marriage is better. There are still challenges as my fwh we found out has asbergers. This was discovered after d day, so we now get we will struggle with communications and his focus mode. But we have work arounds. He travels for business.

I am a stahm, who left corporate management when our child was chronically ill. So I get his travel. For a bit I asked him to sleep with skpe on so I felt more comfortable.

I always say we were separated for two hears almost three it was in house. The purpose was for him to make break throughs in ic.

I decided at a point with clear cut boundaries and a post nup needed in my case due to our child. That j was done playing police.

Your a bright man, you know what you need to do.

After the initial shock, I figured we would work it out and that I would get over it. My husband did everything possible to earn back my trust (and still does!) What I didn't expect was that after the dust settled, I actually was NOT getting over it. In fact, things chipped away at me. Here I am 3 years later, stuck in heartbreak and loss of respect for a man that I believed was one of the "good guys." The realization of that alone has been so difficult.

People do seem to be able to get on with new lives together and I hope that is the case for you.

At this point, I am wondering if it is more me than him... what is wrong with me that I can't move beyond it. I really wish there could be a set time limit and then BOOM...it is all ok.

It sounds like your wife is willing to do what she needs to do... I don't think there is really much more that can be done except let time pass and see how things progress for you. I am really pulling for you.

House of Plane... EXCELLENT post! I LOVE that! I think I'll print that out and give to a few people I know!

IsolatedLeo... Yup... My WW came home and I busted her with a picture of her car in front of OM's apt building. She tried to tell me she went furniture shopping... I showed her the picture and asked which furniture store THIS is! She actually stammered and started to give me the name of a furniture store!

I asked her if I looked stupid! I TOOK THE F'n PICTURE! I KNOW WHERE SHE WAS!

Survey says... "Yes... She thought I was stupid!"

A liar will say ANYTHING when caught! They usually haven't prepared a logical story so making it up on the fly, emotions churning... You are bound to say stupid sh!t!

Now my Ice Queen and I look to be headed for divorce. After we both went to lawyers... She STILL will not tell me what SHE WANTS! My wife is a whole different breed than TTA's... I have the serial liar/cheater type I was buffaloed by.

TTA's sounds like a one-off, matter of convenience type and he is handling his shit well! The last thing he needs is to come on here to defend his actions.

He has had 22 pages of input and people trying all sort of ways to make him think. I feel he has thought deeply and is on the right path!

TTA - it's your original post that many of us are still reacting to. She actually told you that she enjoys his company on the road and since it's "just sex" why can't you just let her keep fucking him. This cold, cruel attitude is horrifying to every husband but hits a BH especially hard. This shit can never go back into the bottle and I KNOW it would haunt me until the day I divorced her or the day I died.

I cannot get past this so cannot offer a pragmatic view. My heart breaks for you that you had to hear your wife say these things out loud.

I truly hope you can heal from all this someday.

Timetoact,

Just read the thread. Have had decades of experience with patients in IC and MC as a side practice to my now retired from medical practice. Your WW, from your description appears to mean what she is representing now. You two are capable of R. Your ability to proceed with it is, of course, is the necessary ingredient. Somethings to consider : like most men pushing 50 with a like aged wife the husband is far more satisfied sexually in the marriage......especially when the wife is highly attractive. The husband also by this time has a far deeper love attachment to the wife than does the wife to the husband. A book can be written on why this is but suffice to say ....just one example of why this is so....too much has been seen by the wife of the generally coarser habits of her mate. Women keep such thing far more out of sight....an inherent trait. Because you can accept R, and get past the sex and this WAS a lust / pride affair for her...."I still got it!!!......"He is 13!!! years younger than me, a hot shot in my business world and he wants me, not some bimbo 24 year old!!!!" With her stud muffin nothing smelled, no strange bodily sounds, room service, blah, blah, blah. Everyone gets what this was. BUT....this you do need to watch. She BELIEVES right now this will not happen again.....but it can.....more likely statistically it will happen in the next 5-7 years.....anywhere from 66 to 75% chance. Why? First, she has far looser boundaries and attitudes toward infidelity than you....she told you, no? Sure she backtracked when she saw your displeasure that threatened her comfortable empty nest life. She does love you in the mature love of a seasoned marriage and sex remains pleasurable with you. Second, her attitudes toward extramarital sex have evolved into a male attitude driven by her success in the still male dominated corporate world. I counseled WW's in an exclusive Ski Resort that were in similar circumstances of corporate success as your wife and frequently was requested to help them R to an open marriage model. I think it is abundantly clear this would be the initial desired direction your wife would have liked. Subsequently you did what I did some years ago. I took into my house an injured fox kit. Nursed her back to health and thought I had a real cool house pet. I think you know how that story ended. The next summer I took her outside with me and for a few weeks she stayed and came back home with me each night. Then one day I called her......but saw a big male fox at the edge of woods. My pet looked at me and then the male fox, then a long, long look at me and then went to her new mate forever.Your wife will NOT leave forever if you don't throw her out. It is unlikely she will truly and deeply love another man in the future.....but she WILL desire hot sex and the validation so craved by an aging prideful woman with another man again and that man will NOT be you. It is her nature now.....a product of all the elements of her life.. If you can live with that again you will find the second episode also will end in R. If you can't it will end in D. All this comes about from the multitude of things that happened in her life, some good, some bad, and some both good and bad. I would advise you not to inform family and friends and especially your children......the more people you tell.....will ensure it gets all over. One exception is IF she lies and says you were the cheater, Good Luck, I truly hope you beat the odds. stretch

The last posts by theDrifter and Stretch have described accurately and eloquently what I have been clumsily trying to say, and what many have reacted to.

The first is, putting aside what discovered cheating wives say when discovered, what she said should give cause for concern and was pretty caustic and should not be swept under the rug.

Secondly, while not saying to divorce her, TTA needs to understand what Stretch has said.

And then on that basis, go forward with R by all means if that is what TTA wants. I agree that she is doing the right things now to enable R and TTA seems smart enough to decide.

However, he wouldn't be on this forum if he didn't feel different viewpoints might be of some help.