SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

40.......most statistics of repeat cheating.......many, many that are published say MEN that cheat will repeat cheat around 75%. Cheater sites make a point of saying once the boundary comes down, it becomes easier and easier to do so again. One qualifier that may reduce that is getting caught.....and having a gut wrenching experience saving their family......but even here it seems to only delay the repeating a number of years but not extinguish it. Women stats are not as readily available as women traditionally have been far more guarded in admitting cheating. But many popular books .....several written on women and their sexual agency and their evolving attitudes about their sexual life and other authorities who have put out articles believe women cheating is within a very short distance of men numbers today. A lot remains guess work but it is widely accepted that at least 50 % to 60% of men admit it. Given another 20% that won't admit, it is not unreasonable that if men are at near 70+ % now that women may be close to 60% and it is hard to not think it will not happen again more than it won't. Thus the 2/3, 3/4 figure given that repeat cheating is easier to do. The WW learns how to stay hidden better.....the burner phone makes detection without following or GPS ing their car near impossible....and most BH don't GPS or VAR.....they look on their spouses regular everyday devices. Finally, it is thought 1/3 to 1/2 the cheaters never get caught. When you look at all these things and given this type of wife with all the travel being done it is hard to escape these %'s stretch

40.....let me point out another element.....say any given wife will cheat at a 50% rate. So we start at 100 wives. We get 50 cheaters. Would one think that of these 50 they would be 50 / 50 to cheat again like any random wife? The reality is that these 50 women already cheated......self selected out of the original 100 to be a cheater.......so they are MORE likely to cheat again, but some DO learn from the experience....so maybe 17 to 20 of the 50 won't cheat again (reason it is so low is most R is rug sweeping)....leaves 30 to 33 out of 50 that WILL cheat again. 30/50= 60%, 33/50= 66%. TTA's wife due to her circumstances, high powered exec. travel statistically moves up higher. Does not mean she has to fail but those are the rough chances given all comers. stretch

TTA......there is an uncommon medical condition that is on occasion first suggested by an unexpected infidelity in a spouse......women more than men are affected by this disorder. It is most common in the 50's but occurs in any age group adult to 90's. There is a loss of judgement and especially in what is considered to be their normal personal morality. They lose the ability of EMPATHY (thought to be deficient in many people exhibiting infidelity), judgement turns reckless, promiscuity may occur. As it progresses language and muscle coordination slowly fail....but that may take a decade after the above symptoms. Intellect remains intact until these later symptoms begin. It is called Pick's Disease and is a form of Dementia caused by accumulation of Tau Proteins or another (TD43? something) protein in the Frontal lobes and/or Temporal lobes of the brain. There is nothing to treat it with....some of the Alzheimer Drugs have been tried with less success than when used in Alzheimers. I saw 2 cases in 40 years....they did not exhibit infidelity....that I KNEW of but that may have been kept from me as by the time I saw them both had language and muscle problems. A neurologist can diagnosis it with an MRI that shows typical brain thinning (they are better at picking this thinning up than even most radiologists) in the affected lobes when the disease is moderately advanced. This is HOPEFULLY not the case and is, of course a long shot. I bring it up so that if your wife's behavior repeats and you are ready to D......you check this out first because, of course, if this WERE the case you would not do so and would stay with her. stretch

very well thought out by Stretch.

In heeding the general board warning by DeeplyScared, I have stayed away from this thread for the most part, even though I do not feel the warning was pinpointed only at me, but others as well. However, I feel that I need to state something. While I shared opinions earlier in this thread, most of my recent expressions have been about the hostility to alternative ideas on this thread and the attacks by some posters against others.

Based on my early statements, yes, I am not a proponent of R and I have always made that quite clear. I can argue that to death. I am not 100% opposed to R 100% of the time either though. TTA has chosen a different path. While I accept and respect that and feel he has thought about it clearly, my objections have been simply been about attacks by a group of posters and at times TTA himself who was offering advice that went against his wisdom, which is their right but IMO very unhealthy and at times classless. Noone makes $$ here for their opinions and are only here because they do care about TTA and situations like his and it is always wise to listen to all sides of an argument to keep oneself well grounded if you are in a betrayed's shoes. Because what you easily dismiss one day you may need the next. We can all disagree or agree about things on a thread like this but people have a tendency not to 'move on' too well when attacked.

I only come back to this thread because my name came up and yes, I agree with Mike7 completely that everyone has a right to their opinions, which I always stand by. I also came back because Stretch has added many good points from a more scientific standpoint, which to me means more than people cheerleading.

In the end, it is what it is.

I simply thought I would chime in based on this latest round of posts and am hopeful that the level of hostility here stays to a minimum for the sake of SI, the sake of TTA, and the sake of those who are willing to go against the trend on this thread and offer alternative viewpoints.

[This message edited by Western at 8:50 AM, February 14th (Sunday)]

Western - just in case my post is on your mind as far as hostilities to differing POVs - and since a few others have alluded to it...

I think there's a special place in h*ll for pain recruiters - those who deliberately and with forethought use the most explicit, crude and cruel mental pictures in their posts to color the pain/feelings of the original poster to lead them to a path they're not prepared to take, because they want more devotees in their way of thinking - that all waywards, especially women (because I notice they're not calling the wayward men by those graphically crude descriptions) should be executed, drawn and quartered, and hung in the public square for good measure. It's as bad as the mind-pictures a bereaved betrayed spouse runs well enough on their own without the added help. It's a psychological warfare on the victim! The assaults were coming almost every single post - beating the already wounded mind to a bloody pulp!

JFO isn't the place for divorce recruiters who behave this way! You don't go into an emergency room where assault victims are laid out on gurneys and add to their psychological pain! You just don't!

I'm not talking about coddling here, or denial of the potential for recidivism here. But look back through this thread less than 10 pages and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about! It was way way way over the top.

Western - if you weren't one of those in the graphic camp, then there were no hostilities to your point of view.

direct K8. I don't see anyone here intentionally trying to hurt anyone, some people just are more blunt. On occasion, yes, one poster can go across the line here and there but I have faith that the Mods do a good job here and the 'pain recruiters' normally find themselves banned. In this thread IMO, some people were getting jumped who weren't crossing the line,and some are long time vets of this board. Even the warning was regarding badgering, not content. However, we can agree to disagree. It's all good. Sometimes people need to step away from the keyboard for a bit. I agree with that. Personally, I avoid being graphic but I never avoid being tough. All I want is for everyone to get along and end the civil war here.

In the end, it's guys like you and Mike7 and the rest who are going to be helping TTA from here on out anyway and I wish you guys the best because the process is going to be long and tricky but in the end.... hopefully successful. I feel strongly you guys can be of great help to TTA

Thanks for reaching out K8

[This message edited by Western at 1:47 PM, February 14th (Sunday)]

Mind Movies......Western and K8........R takes a very long, long time. Both the proponents of D and R should not be taken personally by the BS........and after a time the BS's learn how NOT to take them personal but early on they instinctually have the back of the WS and get prickly. But both have equal value and God help me even if the proponents of D INTENTIONALLY paint a terrible, terrible, even horrifying picture of the WS's activities dripping with evidence of a tawdry and wanton nature and are PUSHING for D......even that serves the BS. The reason is the roller coaster nature of the BS's recovery. As the remorseful WS answers all the questions of the BS....the BS must process the details and in the case of men......eventually their male nature will not rest until they get the nitty gritty (some exceptions, of course, and some immediate deal breakers who quickly D and don't care for the details as they are out of there) with repeated questions be able to R.........with these details in full understanding they will complete R or will re-evaluate and D, or they go into limbo and settle, partial rug sweep, or any of many forever luke warm to tepid to cold marriages. The vigorous even painful proponents of D show them what their (the BS) mind will go through for years to come. I suggest the proponents of R do answer the D proponents, but not directly at them but at the BS with your viewpoint to COUNTER the "worst case" that they put forth.......both sides always remembering to move a BS out of what they clearly WANT to try does not help them even if you are right and they (the BS) are wrong.....because then they will always be distraught over the path they felt in their heart was right for them....they took advice and did not follow it. These forums are great crowd sourcing resources and give thought and time most BS's find perhaps not the right path but the path they feel best starting out on. Personally, I try and illuminate paths that re-connect to both the D and R at several points during the journey as they become more knowledgable about how they feel going forward. stretch

In the time I've been on here, I've never seen an R proponent suggest that the BS think back to their wedding, their vows, how much fun they had together, the first kiss, holding hands, going to the movies or concerts, how lovely the bride looked, etc.

I have seen many times the D proponents suggest that the BS bring their awareness on to the OM slamming away at the WW.

I could consciously decide right now to spend the next hour just focusing on the particulars of the details of the A in all their anatomical glory, and we all know the outcome of that exercise. It is what I would choose to do if I wanted to make myself fell like shit and wanted to guarantee 100% success. A choice.

Purposefully bringing the BS's awareness onto the gory details of the A is manipulating them to feel pain. I always wonder what's going on in the head of the poster when I see those posts.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 4:51 PM, February 14th (Sunday)]

I always wonder what's going on in the head of the poster when I see those posts.

Not to wander too far off course, and specifically speaking of my experiences on a couple of other discussion/support boards, I have always believed that when a poster behaved this way they were tying to exert some type of control because they didn't have control of very much else IRL. <shrug>

I agree with Western on all fronts. I actually went back and skimmed through the thread again and I didn't really see rude posts. For the most part it was just posts that the OP didn't agree with or didn't want to hear. I've been on site where people have said very cruel and crass things, but luckily this isn't one of them. As Western said, the mods do a good job here. I'm not going to lie K8 and House, it kind of seems like you guys are referring to other threads that you may have come across. Besides people pointing out his wife's attitude upon discovery and I didn't see any of the types of posts you guys are referring too. I'm sorry if you guys have frustrations about people who think D is the right course of action. Me personally, even though I'm a HUGE supporter of D, I try to present my views in the most respectful way possible just like I have seen others on this site do. Like Western, I don't think anyone wants to have a civil war. I believe their is room for both points of view on this site if people can be respectful to one another.

I agree with Stretch and Jbrent.

After my last few posts, I decided to go back and look at the entire thread again today (from 6 to 7 PM). I think this thread has been civil to TTA IMO.

Compared to TAM, it's night and day. And I do like TAM but TTA would be getting hammered over there.

As Jbrent said, there needs to be room for advisement on both sides of the equation and posters who are clean should be able to post without getting attacked.

Stretch has added a lot of value to this thread. I hope he keeps posting here.

House, you said this "In the time I've been on here, I've never seen an R proponent suggest that the BS think back to their wedding, their vows, how much fun they had together, the first kiss, holding hands, going to the movies or concerts, how lovely the bride looked, etc.".

I am not going to rehash when I've seen that but I will say this; when the BS starts thinking about those things themselves, they start thinking with the heart and not mind and are setting themselves up for DDay 2 IMO. It's easy to do. All I have ever tried to do is to get these people thinking with their mind and not the heart and to protect themselves.

House, I know you are not accusing me of either which way (and I do respect you) but I try to push the BS out of the doldrums and into action, not emotional misery. I think it's the clearest approach

[This message edited by Western at 8:57 PM, February 14th (Sunday)]

Most of the time, if not the vast majority of the time, the very WORST description of the WS behavior with the AP is a necessary "evil" (as opposed to the also NECESSARY, but not "evil" view of the WS brought up by R proponents to expose the BS to).....especially when the BS is a BH (as the sex is more problematic for BH's). Because..... it is going to COME AT THEM in the near future from answered questions by the WW and will be re-played via Mind Movies innumerable times over the next few years. This initial "testing" is NECESSARY so that the ones (BH's) who won't be able to stand it while trying to R will REALIZE that reaction in them early and avoid the agonizing process that will break both spouses hearts, waste years, and ultimately result in a failed R .......with or without D (failed R without D WILL be the worst possible conclusion for both of them). stretch

Well, i have taken a little break for the week end, and it seems like there is the kind of same debate going on here about divorce and reconciliation that takes over in a lot of threads. If you go back and look at the Space Ghost thread ( the supposed Gold Standard), it probably went on for twenty pages AFTER he served her with divorce papers with folks arguing with each other, and him, about whether he did the right thing or not. Same with Walloped, and BOTH of them at some point kind of had had enough of it and said so.

I do not know if this is what you would call a t/j or not, but if it is it si of my own thread so I'll continue and apologize to the mods if I am making a mistake.

A few folks have continued to proclaim how there is virtually no chance that my wife will not cheat on me again (Stretch I am not talking about you ) in no uncertain terms, BUT that they surely would have recommended R to Space Ghost and Walloped. So in my mind let's take a moment to examine the three wives here

MRS SPACE GHOST

(1) carries on multi month affair with her boss in office with him every day

(2) gets caught virtually three times and asked at dinner a number of times and lies her ass off

(3) two days before getting served at work, tells OM or girlfriend on phone that it's not as much "fun" any more

(4) and we probably have no idea how many times they hooked up after work or in the office since she worked next to him all day and Space Ghost never revealed most of what he heard on VAR.

Yet somehow, a few of the folks seem to think she is a great candidate for R ??? WHY?? Because she collapses on floor when served??? because she tells family. She had to tell the family because he was going to do it because he served her with divorce papers.

And what I read is excuses for her actions because he had told her infidelity was a deal breaker so she was JUSTIFIED in continuing to lie to him. Sorry, I call bull shit on that.

Mrs. WALLOPED

(1) plays house with a guy for three months, telling him she loves him

(2) comes home to Walloped multiple times right after she got done lounging around OM apartment the whole day

(3) lies about NC , spends 21 minutes on NC communication, goes to SIL house and breakers NC again

(4) tells Walloped she had intense feelings for OM and could not have predicted what would have happened.

Now, personally I think one of the big things Walloped is tormented with now is that if this OM had not been still married but rather a single or totally divorced OM, what the hell would have happened.

But again some of the same folks reminding me how "hopeless' my situation is consider Mrs. Walloped a great candidate for R. Maybe so, but why is she not likely to cheat again.???? I'll tell you why. Because she got caught and now realizes Walloped may dump her. No other reason.

Now to Mrs. TTA

(1) fucked OM 6 times

(2) never procl;aimed anything but "lustful" feelings

(3) the world "love" was never mentioned

(4) lied one time about it not being a co worker in CYA mode ( is that unusual)?????

(5) made stupid statement about wanting to let it go on, which seems to be the one statement that some just cannot let go of.

Would either of the other two wives who are great R candidates have stopped what they were doing on their own??? Highly unlikely.

END OF RANT OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.

Stretch, your anal;us is and advise is very thoughtful and helpful. The statistics are as realistic as a lot of infidelity statistics. No one knows because everyone is not truthful about this when questioned.

So let me be clear.

(1) I know that ANYONE who is unfaithful has a greater chance of doing it again than someone who never has done it

(2) 90% of the folks on this forum are in some kind of potential R mode. Anyone who has it settled in their mind that once and done is right to divorce is Porbably not posting here or needing too much advice unless it is legal advice .

(3) I have questioned my wife over and over again about whether she wants an open marriage since this all came out. I have chosen not to replicate these conversations verbatim nor have I written about every sex act they did for the very rfeason, I would have started the same unproductive debate between folks ( some trying to help and some trying to interpret for me) that the other threads have started.

So lastly, and back to the original purpose I posted to begin with, we had a decent week end, nice dinner last night, she looked beautiful, and we have great sex all week end.

Did I "trigger" a little. At one point yes, but I assume that iOS to be expected.

We will have a polygraph date set up shortly, and I hope and believe that that will be a major step forward. I AM prepared to do whatever I have to if I am wrong.

I WILL go over this thing from beginning to end with my wife BEFORE the polygraph test and give her every opportunity imaginable to " confess" anything else.

I also have discovered through conversation that her personal girlfriends were really not the problem with peers, but rather it was the "business" girlfriends from women's groups that she did a lot of "girl time" with that had the shitty and entitled attitude towards infidelity. She is resigning from all these groups and no more girls trips with any of them . No more "girl bonding". I'll explain more if anyone is interested.

Finally for those of you who had a miserable day yesterday, my heart aches for you, and I hope that now that the holiday is over you can find a little peace.

Sorry for the length of this and I appreciate the concern of the folks who have continued to offer encouragement and hope and suggesting me on any things I can do to stay safe that I may be missing . Any specific polygraph questions that you would ask other than the obvious would be appreciated .

Stretch, at this point I don't think I have to worry about "dementia" thing you spoke about . Stupid , yes, getting senile no. Thanks for all the other analytics .

[This message edited by Timetoact at 6:23 AM, February 15th (Monday)]

TTA,

I appreciate your thread just from this morning but felt I needed to clarify a few things since I see the other threads differently. Not to t/j but here goes.

I know you didn't list me specifically and you are right that a lot of people here did try to get SG to R and that most of the posters here are pro-R. WE do get a lot of pro-D newly BS here trying to help them undo the midfuck they got though. However, I for one fully supported SG's decision to divorce from the very outset. It was easy to do, his mind was made up and it was a very clear line in the sand with him. Hell if anything, I probably cheerleaded him because I knew how much of a dealbreaker it was for him and I felt strongly he would be miserable if he tried to R based on his history and his core values and priorities.

Walloped, I too supported D to an extent but he did the opposite. He went on a trip, came back and decided pretty decisively to R, despite going through enormous pain, and then between his thread and a few others going on simultaneously, there were a lot of complaints about 'posters going over the line' enough so that the Mods put out their own special thread warning people quite sternly to watch it. That muted Walloped's thread more than SGs. Walloped's thread did get a little nastier than SG's but I would say that the Pro-D (if that's what you call it) crowd dominated the SG thread, the pro-R (ITWYWTCI) dominated Wallopeds and to an extent yours.

Now, since I come down on the Pro-D side most of the time, I don't think, as a matter of personal opinion, that any of the cases are great R candidates. As one of our best posters on this board, Bigger, said and it's one of my favorite lines, affairs don't make marriages better (I hate when people say that IMO they destroy them) but the work put in to R after an affair can make a weak marriage better because of the work put into it.

My problem with all three of the cases you illustrate is that none of those marriages are weak to begin with. They seemed like strong marriages. Your three threads are part of an emerging pattern both on these boards and in society in general of 'late in life' affairs that take place when the kids are either out of the house or in their teens and to me, those are the toughest ones. The golden years should be filled with thinking of spending time together, making up for lost time during the working years. It shouldn't be filled with affairs or lewd behavior and so on. Further, the later one is in life, the harder the loss because of accumulation of time and assets and kid's influence. That's what makes these cases even more painful, especially to some of us who aren't going through them.

I agree with your assessment that your wife's actions are not worse than SGs or Wallopeds, in fact probably not as extensive. That's one plus if anyone wants to call it that. I think what got your thread on a more drama filled track was that Walloped's and SG's wives crashed and burned once their husbands lowered the boom. Your wife's initial reaction (yes I know the dreaded initial reaction) did the opposite which probably triggered some people here and got your thread moving in a different direction for a while. Then things began to change.

In the end, your wife is doing hard work to make you feel R is a solid choice and I am glad you are cautious enough to realize that the road ahead will be tough and that things aren't 'in the bank'. I agree with you that her actions since DDay should weigh more than her initial statements, though everything that has happened from the initial start of the affair through now are all part of an ongoing story and should all be considered to varying degrees (at least IMO) Walloped's wife did a lot of the hard work to make it work there too. And that's a good thing because the wayward should be doing most of the heavy lifting to make up for the damage that they've done. SG's wife never got a chance and that's fine too. SG had a very strict line on this subject, as do I, and his wife seemed capable of putting forth the effort too. However, and as I supported SG all the way, he sought his peace of mind in a different manner. And good for him as well. I for one think he was more decisive than some here give him credit for. One can be both decisive and careful.

To conclude, I am rooting for you to get what you want out of this situation. None of you - Walloped, SG, you, DoneGone and multiple others here deserved what happened to you and the affairs aren't and never were your fault. I wouldn't be able to reconcile in any of these cases but then again, I am not you, I don't see your situation and I don't walk into your front door every day. You chose to R, the fruits of success or the pain of failure, wherever it leads and I hope it's with the former, you are willing to accept those consequences. So you will soldier on and I wish you the best.

I am going to leave this thread in the hands of those who are more pro-R because that's what you need right now.

Western,

I do appreciate your taking the time to clearly and honestly respond to what I posted.

Most of us probably think infidelity is a final deal breaker. The fact is most of us do not hold to that with no exceptions.

Understand, I am not determined to stay married to my wife regardless of what she does or has done, but I am willing to give her a chance to prove that she will do everything in her power to do what is necessary.

I do not consider that rug sweeping. If the polygraph comes back or if she confesses to being a serial cheater, and I stay anyway, then whack me to your hearts content with a whole forest of trees.

I just want to get to that point of relative certainty before I "pull any triggers".

I am not asking you to stay off any threads of mine. That is your call. Just making that clear. I just don't see it as productive for arguing back and forth, not with me, but with other posters by anyone There can be differences of opinion without arguing.

TTA, thanks for the response. I agree 100% with what you said. You are absolutely right IMO. I too hate the arguing back and forth.

I hope you get the answers you need with the poly. When is it ?

[This message edited by Western at 7:56 AM, February 15th (Monday)]

Western,

She wants to do the polygraoh like YESTERDAY. I want it done by the BEST place we can find. Her normal response by the way. Remember, her normal mode of operation is run right through the wall so it does not surprise me she wants to proceed at warp speed. I want her to fully understand that getting this done does NOT make it ALL RIGHT.

Second reason to take my time is if I do this at end of February, what the hell do I do about insuring I get the truth about the upcoming March meeting that they both have to attend. ??? I can hire a PI but that does me no good because he has no access to their meetings and dinners. I know I will and should get questions and suggestions on how to handle that meeting so maybe I wait and do it all in one test.

You're defending your line of thought and I think that is an excellent sign that you're in a (relatively) good place.

TTA... As one who has spent THOUSANDS uncovering my wife's affair and behavior related to afterward... I'd say... Get one now AND a few weeks after she gets back.

Your wife appears to be cut from a WAY different cloth than mine. Mine is cold and calculating with a track record of covering things up so I wouldn't find out. She's been doing it for years and I missed every one of the warning signs... Or didn't investigate like I should have at least!

I think your wife will be scared to death to go to this meeting and will limit her contact with or not even talk to this guy. She won't know you don't have a PI following them around. You could hint that you're thinking about it... Who knows?

I know the mind always goes where you REALLY don't want it to go. I have also learned that if you go looking for something... You will probably find it... even though it sometimes is not there.

Get the poly now and tell her that there may be one when she comes back as well as future ones down the road.

It sounds like she is almost desperate to win you back. I think she will do fine!

TTA, your analysis of your own thread's digression is fantastic. I am totally in agreement that statistics are difficult. For every one Stretch quoted, I could find research refuting those numbers. You can't look at how many people cheat a second time as their boundaries loosen, or even how many people cheat AFTER THEY ARE CAUGHT (an entirely different scenario, as the reality of potential loss of the M is more clear). You have to look at YOUR situation, and I believe you are, with as clear a head as can be expected in such a horrible situation.

I also agree that it is your wife's initial reaction that several posters can't seem to get past. I was thinking of that this weekend as I, too, had a lovely weekend with my FWH with lots of sex. HE actually brought up telling me he had never loved me and cried about it. He so wishes he could take it back, although he doesn't even remember saying it. So yeah, things ARE said on D-Day in CYA mode.

I wish you luck with the testing and with R.