SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

She did those things knowing you had a ring. She did them knowing how hard it was for you to make that commitment. She chose him over you. Knowingly and willingly. Over and over.

What is she DOING (not saying) to fix that? Have you read in the Wayward section to see what it takes?

It took you a long time to make a decision to ask her and buy the ring.

Maybe one of the reasons it took so long was something in you, your gut, sixth sense, whatever....knew there was something off with her.

Either way, the visual of her enjoying herself by cheating on you is never going away. Like you said, not the actual sex (although in a few weeks that might change) but her full on happiness in doing it.

Can you be with someone who did, and is capable of, deriving joy from cheating on you?

What type of herpes is it, toopol?

Yes it's treatable and not as earth-ending as other STIs. But I think it's difficult to parse out temporary/short term dealing with something unpleasant-but-not-catastrophic versus thinking about how you'll deal with it down the line. In 10 years, you might be really really over having to deal with it and wish you'd seen it in a different light now. Maybe not.

I think the herpes side is getting a lot of attention because others have seen the long-term effects (on you, on future relationships, etc).

But I think realistically, many of us don't make/break a relationship around a treatable - though not curable - virus.

In the time after dday, it is very confusing when we see the person we thought we knew. But now we also know there is an entire different side of them, where they are not just capable but do things that are horribly betraying.

I'd be careful about minimizing her choices because of it being far away/different context. I know your couples counselor is doing that, and perhaps your girlfriend as well. But if she truly wants to change into a person who would be healthy for future relationships, she can't be looking for reasons to dismiss or minimize her choices.

But shifting away from her - back on you. Are you in a separate IC than the couples counselor? Apologies if I've missed that. What were the issues you were working on that led you to think about proposing to her?

Your posts make me think you are an analytical person. Weigh pros/cons. Like to know your path in front of you. but also acknowledge your inability to know/control everything. I suspect this might wind up leading you to leave her, as unknowns are expected she's kind of demonstrated a clear unknown.

But there is still no pressure to do figure all that out now. I think for now you should focus on you, processing this, grieving it. Are you grieving, or is there a lot of focus on her, what you'll choose, herpes, etc etc. Everything *except* what you feel?

Look at my signature info.

Hardest thing I've ever done is to honestly work R with a woman I've been with since 1982. Think on that. This is taking ALL of our skills and tools and effort. Any idea how much foundation I have with my fWW? And it is still THAT difficult?

You two don't have that foundation. You just don't. This R stuff takes serious ninja-Jedi-Dali Lama skills man. Y'all just don't have.

Run

You're young

It WILL haunt you forever. I know you don't want to hear it (not swayed by it; whatever...). But she WILL do it to you again

You're in love with who you thought she was, your imposed image of what you wanted her to be, but what she was not. Listen to us more experienced old guys when we say she has shown you who she is. Believe what you have just experienced. She is a hurter. She isn't what you thought she was. She has shown you, so believe it. She will hurt you again. Period

Life is short and the odds are stacked waaaay in your favor.

Good luck

(RUN!!)

I'm not very persuaded by the people who say "it's sure to happen again" or "she's just acting remorseful to manipulate you" or "there's probably a lot more she didn't tell you"

I am really sorry, but when your therapist suggested that she might be cheating on you "[were] not persuaded" either. It is my guess that the therapist saw something in her that you couldn't. You know. . . I believe you and I know that you probably won't marry her for a while. Good for you. I am not going to suggest to you that you run. I do however still think that you should take a step back. A break from the situation so that you can better see the situation because right now you seem to be believing every word she says.

Experience from being on this sight, my own and even a few of my friends stories has led me to believe that every adultery story has more to it than the first one that the WS tells. And from the way she handled things I honestly believe that your girl friend is not an exception because she's acting like the same person as before. You keep saying that. . . trying to convince either yourself or us. Perhaps both? Not trying to be hard here but would like for you to consider that there is more to the story. I bet you if you say to her that you feel like she's not telling you the whole truth she will start changing her story trying to figure out what you want to hear. It's just a feeling. She may have to hear it a few times from you but start to wonder if you something, if she slipped up somewhere.

By the way I do not feel like she is an awful person. You are both young and you are trying to discover who you are and where you belong. She met a guy that swept her off her feet. She wanted a taste of a different life and boy did she get it. She learned that the guy that she thought loved her not only didn't love her but didn't care enough about her to protect her from a terrible disease. She could have realized that you are her night in shining armor after that and she loves you. But you are not doing either one of you any favors by allowing her to not learn from her mistake. But if you accept all her explanations with out question or forgive her without consequence she won't learn and neither will you. I am sorry to be so hard. I really am trying to help. I promise.

Jose

I'm sorry that I'm not responding to everyone. I'm reading it all.

But if you accept all her explanations with out question or forgive her without consequence she won't learn and neither will you. I am sorry to be so hard. I really am trying to help. I promise.

I know you're trying to help, and I appreciate it. I don't think she'll see it as "without consequence" either way. She's certainly had some personal consequences already, and I've been wrestling openly with whether or not to dump her. She knows I'm still on the fence about it, and it seems to scare her. I don't think she'd want a repeat of this experience in her future.

I have no real way of truly knowing whether she's telling the truth, but if she were going to lie, it doesn't really make sense for her to say everything she's already said. I purposefully asked her not to tell me certain details that would only cause me pain; I don't know what the other guy looked like or what his name was or how many times they did X, Y, or Z. But when I do ask for details, sometimes the answer is comforting, but more often it has the painful ring of truth. It doesn't seem like she's keeping any bombshells from me.

She's certainly had some personal consequences already, and I've been wrestling openly with whether or not to dump her. She knows I'm still on the fence about it, and it seems to scare her. I don't think she'd want a repeat of this experience in her future.

It is what she does from this point that is important. Is she going to smooth things over on the surface or is she going to go deep? What I mean to point out is...

- Is she focusing primarily on you and your relationship in an effort to patch things up, get you to feel better about her and reach a place where the relationship can pick back up?

- Or is she scared about how she could do this in the first place and is looking for ways to fix herself so that it won't happen again (whether that is with you or, should you leave her, with someone else she meets in the future).

It is what she does with her failure that matters, both for her and for you.

Completely inappropriate reply.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:50 AM, April 30th (Saturday)]

Is she focusing primarily on you and your relationship in an effort to patch things up, get you to feel better about her and reach a place where the relationship can pick back up?

Mostly that. It's mostly focused on me and my feelings, so at least it's not totally selfish. We talk about it, and it involves a lot of telling her all the things that upset me about it. And she seems upset about it too.

But it kind of cuts off there. Like, she believes it's right and proper for me to say everything I'm feeling, but she thinks she's learned her lesson already. She feels regret, and she's scared of losing me, and she's very sweet and loving, but she thinks there's nothing she can do or say to make me feel better about what happened. She says it was wrong, and she wishes she could take it back, but she can't. So I get to take my time and to be upset, but it's basically my turn to get over it.

I don't really know what I want out of her. Yeah, she could go to a therapist and drag some explanation out of the depths of her psyche, but I don't really give a shit. It would still be wrong, and I don't think it would make me feel any more or less confident in her future fidelity. Maybe that's silly and short-sighted. But it just doesn't seem like it would do anything to satisfy me. It's weird. It's like her betrayal wasn't about her, from my perspective. If she could do it, then anybody could. So it feels more like a violent, cynical correction to my innocent worldview rather than a revelation about her in particular. Very weird.

She needs individual counseling. Regardless of whether you stay or go, she should be figuring that stuff out with a trained professional. Because it's not your job to be her counselor. It's up to her to find the strength to continue past the shame and guilt and fear and really own what is broken. You can't force that on her.

If she could do it, then anybody could. So it feels more like a violent, cynical correction to my innocent worldview rather than a revelation about her in particular. Very weird.

that is the problem right there. Instead of you coming up with a different opinion of her, you're coming up with a different opinion of the world. It's like you're still insisting she's a sweet, innocent, honest person who wouldn't cheat.

so... instead of realizing, wow! she's not who I thought she was, you're saying Wow! the world is messed up.

that's a problem dude. Not every woman will cheat. Your girlfriend would. That's a knock against her, not the world.

and this stuff about you avoiding the details? that's you avoiding finding out who she really is. avoidance... rugsweeping.

you need to take a good look in the mirror. you need to face this. you need to face who she is, and who she did. get his name, his face, his height, his dicksize.

if you run away from this, you're going to regret it. trust me on that.

[This message edited by mike7 at 6:43 PM, April 29th (Friday)]

It's okay if you need time to process this - infidelity really turns your emotions inside out. It doesn't sound like you're falling for any manipulation, you're acknowledging that this is not the way you wanted to start a marriage...it's okay if you want to make your decision in your own time.

About herpes. It's nothing anyone would ever want, but many of our members received them from the AP via their WS...I hate that comments are making it sound like having herpes makes you untouchable and unloveable. That's just not true - and I'm saying that not for Toopol but for any members reading this thread and feeling bad or shameful as everyone uses shaming adjectives for it.

I have a close family member...she got herpes as a teen - she was devastated. She didn't deserve it - didn't understand that her bf's lip sore was herpes and caught through oral sex - it did force her to be responsible with her sexual decisions - every relationship after meant that first sexual contact was delayed until she was comfortable having the "herp talk". Not a single bf broke up with her once she disclosed. She's married today to a wonderful man and they take precautions so his chances are minimized.

Toopol does not need to get a spine - he's on the right track and it sounds like he is holding his own with wgf - he's not in a fog but I think he wants to be sure in his decision. You're doing fine Toopol. You sound like you're a "thinker" - you're analyzing everything so you can be confident in the course of action you choose - it's okay to be thorough.

So I get to take my time and to be upset, but it's basically my turn to get over it.

That she is able to focus on you isn't a bad thing. It's a start. But if it stops there, it isn't enough.

Yeah, she could go to a therapist and drag some explanation out of the depths of her psyche, but I don't really give a shit. It would still be wrong

At this point, your feelings are spot on. You shouldn't give a shit. You should be hurting. You should be cynical. It IS wrong and nothing will ever change that.

I don't think it would make me feel any more or less confident in her future fidelity. Maybe that's silly and short-sighted. But it just doesn't seem like it would do anything to satisfy me.

You're hurt and angry. Nothing is going to satisfy that at this moment. And nothing should. You have to grieve what you've experienced.

I think the fact of the matter is that you are just coming out of shock and moving into anger while this is discussing the potential future should you choose to try and fix things. You simply aren't ready for that and your emotions are too raw. Just chalk this up as a "Good to know" piece of information that will help you avoid future pain. File it away for now.

I've always longed for a romantic, Hollywood-perfect kind of relationship. It's not realistic, and so I've always seen that as a flaw. But I don't want to give up on my idealism entirely. I don't want to settle. At the very least, I need to love her. I feel that now, but that might fade as the fog clears. And if it does, there's no reason to stay.

and

If she could do it, then anybody could. So it feels more like a violent, cynical correction to my innocent worldview rather than a revelation about her in particular. Very weird.

Well, we would all like to believe in true love and Hollywood relationships. But, those are very far and few in between.

The truth is that most men believe in romantic love but very few women do. You think marriage is forever, don't you. Ask your GF. If she's like most women nowadays, she may be thinking "if the marriage doesn't work out, no big deal, I'll just get divorced and remarry." Truth. I was shocked, but after talking to a lot of women, I find that it's a common attitude.

Yes, it's a bitter pill, and many of the people on this sub won't agree with it... but it's the truth and that's why many of us are here. If true love forever existed, then many of us wouldn't be here, those of us who had perfect marriages, perfect wives.

Yes, any woman could cheat. But your woman did. Big difference. Everyone is tempted. But how strong is your SO in resisting? That's the key question. Now you know about yours.

So yes, it's time to grow up. I'm not saying that in a derogatory sense. But love forever is a fairytale. The woman who loves you now, will she love you when you've gained 75 pounds and is 20 years older when the pool boy with rippling muscles comes by? Perhaps... or not.

But the thought of her looking forward to it, giddy with excitement, or them taking off each other's clothes... with no thought for me in that moment... that part really hurts.

I'll tell you what will hurt more. She probably (and I say probably but I would handicap the likelihood at 90%) did things with him she never did with you and will never do with you. Anal, A2M, bondage, whatever. That's what they do when they have torrid affairs. The guy sounds like someone who does this kind of thing a lot. Those guys push rough sex, typically. Truth. Painful truth. Don't ask her if you don't want to know.

She may never admit it. But she probably did. Go read through the posts on this forum. In the majority of cases, the WW let their AP do things they never let their husbands do, things they claimed are "too disgusting" or "hurt too much." I'm sorry if I 'm triggering people, but I think Toopol needs to hear the truth.

[This message edited by french123 at 12:14 AM, April 30th (Saturday)]

Her going to ic and doing the work wouldn't be about satisfying you

You could leave her tomorrow and she should still do the work

Because if you're with someone for years and then lie to them, betray them, do some reckless self-jeopardizing in the process, and then feel "eh it's done. So sorry." Well you got some issues to figure out.

I have no real way of truly knowing whether she's telling the truth

But you DO have a way to know if she is telling you the truth. It is the polygraph exam. You will feel so much better if you require a polygraph of her. Do you discount this option because you are afraid of what you might find out? You do not have to ask questions that give you sordid details. But you can find out if she is telling the truth about her AP, about whether or not she ever considered or had an affair before, and about how she really acquired the STD. (It could have been from an entirely different partner, and she just found out about the STD while on the trip).

If your GF is already being completely honest with you, she will have no reservations about taking a polygraph. In fact, she will WANT to do it just to help you recover. You are selling her short if you do not do this. Because otherwise, you will always wonder if you know the whole story. You may not be thinking that now, but trust me, you will in the future. You have a great tool to help you make a decision about your future that is critical. Why don't you use it?

ok, I'm going to try again. Hopefully you will read and understand what I'm trying to say.

first off, I don't think you're spineless or a doormat if you decide to stay with your girlfriend. Whether you stay or not is not really the issue. and frankly, I don't really care. It's your life, your girlfriend.

Not everyone needs to hear all the gory details. A lot do, some don't.

My concern is that you seem to just "want this all to go away and get back to where we were." I'm concerned you want to rugsweep this. You appear to NOT want to know the details.

Let me ask you, what happens if your girlfriend goes back to the same city and stays at the same hotel? and see's the same guy? He's just as ardent. Says he wants to marry her. says she's his soulmate? says he didn't know he had herpes, doesn't know how he got it?

what would she do? Will she think, well...I've already had sex with him many times. there's no point in not doing it some more. after all, I've already ruined my relationship with toopol. it wouldn't hurt to do it a few more times. it's really good sex. this guy says he loves me. maybe we ARE soulmates?

In the past she said "she was confused, and rationalized it." How do you know she won't do the same? OH! because she says she feels DIFFERENT now. She's NOT confused anymore.

I'm also concerned that you and she have the same IC. And your IC seems to be vested in keeping you together.

You know, lawyers aren't allowed to have conflicting clients. There's a reason for this. In a sense, your IC has conflicting clients. She has your girlfriend who desperately wants to stay together, and you, who may not. Your IC seems to consider it a job-well-done if you two stay together. Everybody's happy!

I think you need to see another IC to get a second opinion. Get another one. Just tell your current IC that you want to hear another opinion. That you think she's counseling you both and acting like an MC. You want to hear from someone who is only interested in what is best for YOU. Your current IC should understand that. If she doesn't, then that's another bad sign about her.

Since you don't want to tell your parents, in a sense, you're on your own. Your girlfriend and IC both want you to reconcile. Who is speaking for YOU? Just a bunch of anonymous people on the internet? To be honest, it seems too easy for you to dismiss our advice. It may cause you to think more carefully if you have another counselor advising you. So... at least do this. Look for another counselor. Find one that has experience with infidelity. Then tell him/her the whole story. and see what they say.

I think you would be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't at least do that. in my mind, it would mean you are choosing to have the blinders on and rugsweep this.

good luck friend. I wish you the best.

[This message edited by mike7 at 11:08 AM, April 30th (Saturday)]

Nice f*cking post, Mike.

Blink, read that twice!

toopol, I agree with Mike.

You need your own IC.

I have seen several since my D-Day 11 years ago, and none of them would have considered meeting with my husband due to conflict of interest and ethics.

Find a GOOD QUALIFIED therapist. For yourself.

My EX wanted me to have the same IC has hers.

I said, nope... it could be a conflict of interests.