SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Toopol, Mike's pretty smart. Heed that advice.

Besides, what would a 2nd opinion hurt?

Yeah, I've considered seeing another therapist on my own. It would be nice to have someone else to talk to.

Hi Topol,

I read the beginning of your thread and the end. A few things stand out to me. Before you knew of any infidelity, YOU were not sure if you wanted to take this relationship to the next level of commitment. Your inner senses were trying to tell you something.

Secondly, when your SO calls from a business trip and breaks the news of infidelity, that is really not the time to mention you bought a ring. Those are power plays, you weren't sure if she was long time commitment material, she countered with a business trip affair that she didn't hide from you, you mention a ring and ready to commit, she's mentions herpes (I'm suspecting she's had it longer than this trip).

Break ups are hard. Really, really hard. They challenge everything we thought we knew to be true. It's devastating when we realize we were duped. It makes you question everything in your life, along with your long held beliefs about the meaning of life.

I think you know this is not the beginning of a life long relationship. Instead of trying to bale out the sinking ship, look towards the new horizon and imagine your wildest dreams coming to fruition. Chalk it up to necessary life experience for your real journey.

Smile! Your'e one step closer to where you should be!

Look, you know

I don't know, maybe I'm just old but the minute my girlfriend sleeps around then on top of that we both have to see therapists because she slept around you'd think the writing was on the wall.

Not even adding that she contracted a sexually transmitted disease which now affects your whole lives because she didn't have the sense to use protection.

That disease is now her legacy, a constant reminder of what she did, a legacy which might affect her children.

Crazy part is..you're not married. You could leave and find a new partner in time who'd treat you like a king. A literal get out of jail free card.

Read No More Mr Nice Guy and work on yourself man. Like I said I must be old.

How you doin Toopol?

I agree TrenR. Completely.

Mike7 hit it on the previous page too

Different perspective here. I've been here a long time, and I've been thru 2 WS's. The first one was NOT remorseful. Kept lying, tried to hide stuff, and my gut kept hurting. Being with him made me crazy because I KNEW there was something he wasn't telling me and I kept digging. Eventually I left before I even had any proof because I knew deep in my heart I would NEVER be able to trust him. We were together 5 years. Look...5 years is a LONG time. 7 years used to be common law marriage (not anymore though) so 5 years is not easy to walk away from.

My new guy, 2 emotional affairs. One of which was an old gf that he was with on and off for 6 years. They were engaged at some point. That one really hurt.

I'm still with that one. You know why? Because I left him at first when I found out and he had his wake up call. He worked so hard and I decided to wait a while, to see if we could work it out. I didn't take him back, but I didn't stop talking to him or hanging out with him from time to time. In the meantime, he started therapy, we read "not just friends" by Shirley Glass together, taking our time, learning about each other and our deepest darkest fears and misperceptions, and he did EVERYTHING I asked plus he came up with some things on his own....he let me say anything I felt I needed to say, he was patient with me and my millions of questions, he cried and they weren't the crocodile tears of my other WS, they were real. You know, in your gut, when something is real or not. Listen to your gut.

After a while, my heart knew he was okay to take the chance on.

There are no excuses for cheating, but there are always reasons. In my mind, some reasons are more valid than others. The thing that made the difference with him is that he actually realized he was broken and put all his effort into fixing the brokenness. It wasn't easy. But he was truthful about everything, including in the beginning saying things like...."I can't promise right now that if I see her I won't go up and talk to her. I won't start a relationship with her, but I don't want to be rude." We talked that thru for a long time before he realized he COULD be rude to people sometimes. He was taught to always be nice to people. It messed him up because it also made him vulnerable to bad people.

And some of the stuff he said hurt. When he started the EA with her, he admitted he still had some feelings for her although he knew 100% he didn't want to be with her, he wanted to be with me. He didn't understand why he had such a pull to her. It took a long time and a lot of therapy, talking thru it together, and figuring out what his weaknesses were before he could say for certain that she held no attraction to him at all anymore. He's extremely sentimental and when he attaches to someone, he doesn't let go easily. That can be a good or a bad thing. Also, there was a part of him that he felt was very damaged, deep inside. That damaged part made him feel that he couldn't accept or be worthy of a relationship with a decent person, so he had a pull to his ex because she was totally messed up, like he felt he was. Only difference is he realized he was messed up. She thinks she is fine the way she is.

People are complicated. No one is perfect. Some people do cheat, but in my life....sometimes there are circumstances that happen that make it easier for some. I like to think I would never cheat, and in my 53 years, I never had....even in my abusive relationship. I just left. But I did start dating while the divorce was going on because I was extremely vulnerable and scared. That is when "I" became prey to a sociopathic predator. He was the WS that brought me here.

This guy that hooked on to her....my thinking is that he is also a predator. Predators can sniff out the vulnerable, tell them what they want to hear, and push all the right buttons. In trying to fix this....she is going to have to figure out what made her so vulnerable, be totally honest with you even if it hurts so much you may end up leaving anyway, and then figure out how to make sure she is never away from you when she is feeling vulnerable in the beginning, until she has fixed that part. She is going to have to talk to you and be open about her vulnerabilities...and her thought processes that lead to those. She is going to have to figure out the deepest worst parts of herself and bring them into the light, even if they are painful to deal with (one of my SO's issues left him physically shaking when he started combating it), and she is going to have to share them with you and talk about them with you until you feel, deep inside, that she has finally overcome that obstacle. And this is not going to happen in 6 months or a year. This is a long process.

Working it out is a LONG, HARD, SCARY process. It hurts. So does leaving. I've done both. I'm so glad I left the other one, but I am glad I stayed with this one, because he is the right one to work it thru with. And the hard, scary, hurtful work we have done has brought us so close that we trust each other beyond anyone else in this world.

I am also thinking, if she is mid-20s, maybe her biological clock is ticking. If she eventually wants to have children, she is going to be looking for someone to commit and raise a family with. When it looked like you were not ever going to commit, she may have become vulnerable to a predator that could sniff that out and tell her all the things she needed to hear. That might be a huge issue for you two to work on together if you decide to stay.

The happily ever after fairy tale? With the perfect partner? Please give that up. The fairy tale thinking will make YOU vulnerable to not seeing the reality of your situation. I was raised on Disney and I thought I was Cinderella. It is only a fairy tale. Real life is never happily ever after. It is love, pain, connecting on a deep level, disliking that person sometimes to where you don't even want to be around them, and if you build trust and are with someone a long time, there may be a comfortability and a knowing that this person is the one that will stick with you even when you are disabled, or can't feed yourself anymore, and all kinds of stuff in between. But the one thing you do need in a REAL relationship is trust. She has broken it so she will need to be the one to fix it, if you decide to work on it.

Good luck, and keep posting here no matter what you decide. We are here to support you, and if you need something specific, if you ask for it in your title or your first post, people usually try very hard to help you even if you just need hugs or support.

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 8:45 AM, May 3rd (Tuesday)]

Thank you, NaiveAgain. I do think I could reconcile with my girlfriend. I just don't know if it's the smart move, you know? With most things in life, I tend to think strategically. I try to put myself in a position where all the factors favor me, where success is easier. With that perspective, this relationship seems like a poor investment. But here I am, finding it hard to leave, even though it's hard to stay too.

I hear what you're saying about the perfect fairy tale relationship. I think part of my problem is that my parents always seemed to have a very happy, very stable, pretty easy marriage. They set the standard in my mind at a very early age, and it took me a long time to realize that that wasn't common or something you could take for granted. Even now, I don't know how accurate or warped my understanding of their relationship is. But still, part of me believes that I should hold out for something better. I don't think that my girlfriend's infidelity was inevitable; so if it's possible to have something as good as my current relationship *without* infidelity, couldn't that be a realistic minimum standard?

How you doin Toopol?

I'm okay. I'm giving myself time. Over the past week, I kept seeing reminders all over the place, and my girlfriend accidentally triggered some moments of deep sadness for me. We've cuddled a lot and been pretty intimate, but for some reason I feel really nervous and uncomfortable with the idea of having sex with her again (on a purely emotional level; nothing to do with the herpes issue, which is being handled just fine).

I built up some anger in the last several days, and I ended up sitting down and writing another long, angry letter to her. After I was done with it, after I had gotten the anger out on the page, I didn't feel like sending it anymore. It got more and more harsh as the letter went on. Here's an excerpt from the most intense part:

I hate that you're basically saying everything right. You say you're sorry over and over, and you don't try to justify what you did, and you let me be angry and sad. What more can I ask for? But I was never very upset with you-in-the-present. I'm upset with you-in-the-past. I'm sad and angry with what you did weeks ago, not what you're doing now. There's nothing you can do to change what happened. Nothing you can say to make it seem any better. We both know that. How frustrating that I can't yell at the old you. It's like I was only presented with the new you, fully reformed, and so I have no right to be upset with you. I feel robbed. All that's left to do is allow time to pass, to get some more distance from the old you, and that can never happen fast enough.

In your dark moments, you say that what you did was horrible, that you don't deserve me, that you ruined our relationship, that you ruined our lives. And you're right! Maybe I won't think so in the future, but right now, I agree with you! You fucked up your life, and more importantly, you fucked up mine. Oh, sure, we'll both be all right in the long run. People recover from years-long affairs, even ones that were *discovered* instead of *confessed*, and people recover from divorces. We're young and our lives are otherwise going great. But it's still the worst thing that's ever happened to either of us. Can I forgive that? Sure, maybe. Forgiveness is divine. I love forgiveness. I love taking the high road. I love solving problems with loving kindness. I'm a moralistic little shit, and I like imagining myself to be a saint. But maybe that's even sillier than it sounds. Maybe trying too hard to be a good guy has turned me into a pussy, incapable of standing up for myself or drawing a line in the sand. Forgiveness is divine, but I should remember that I'm mortal. Maybe I should be more stingy with forgiveness, for my own good.

You say everything right, and you tell me that you understand how horrible it was, and then you tell me that there's nothing more you can say, that nothing you can say or do will make it right, that I can vent my anger (because that's important!) but you have no answers to offer me. And you're right about that too. I agree with you. It still fucking sucks. It's like: oh good! I feel like shit! Good job feeling like shit! Hooray for me! Keep feeling shitty for a while, keep unloading on your poor girlfriend and your therapist, and eventually you'll get over it! And we call this long period of feeling shitty: "healing". Wonderful. We've all learned a valuable lesson, and maybe our relationship will turn out *even better* than before.

Fuck that idea, by the way. Our relationship will never be better than I thought it was, because you will forever have cheated on me. You gave me total fidelity for years and years. Should you get credit for that? And now that the affair is over, you promise me total fidelity in the future. Should you get credit for that? Only the future matters, after all! Then yeah, our relationship is great, if you only count the periods before and after the affair! You were actually like 99% true to me! What a fucking joke. It feels more like: "It has been [3] weeks since she fucked another guy." Let's see if we can beat our last record!

I don't know what I hope / want / expect her to say to something like that. I don't know what you all might say either, but I'm curious.

[This message edited by toopol at 12:40 PM, May 3rd (Tuesday)]

Catching up on your thread toopol.

I don't know what you all might say either, but I'm curious.

Honestly this sounds like a deal breaker to you. You keep noting that over and over by the I'm probably going to leave statements. Infidelity being a deal breaker for you is ok. It also sounds like infidelity being a deal breaker what you are wrestling with.

Keep feeling shitty for a while, keep unloading on your poor girlfriend and your therapist, and eventually you'll get over it! And we call this long period of feeling shitty: "healing". Wonderful. We've all learned a valuable lesson, and maybe our relationship will turn out *even better* than before.

That above to me sounds like it's more about you coming to terms with yourself than what she did. It hints that you may not be able to forgive yourself if you were to try and reconcile. It hints that you may feel like you are betraying yourself if you try and reconcile aka "get over it".

THAT is one of the hardest, if not the hardest thing to do about R. Forgiving yourself on your own deal breaker (infidelity).

I'm not saying which way you should go. That is something you have to live with. But by reading your posts I would say your mind is already made up and you are torturing yourself for that decision. Sounds like you feel you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Either direction is pain for you which is par for the course with infidelity.

What does your gut say at this point? Always listen to your gut.

yop

That's a good letter, toopol, and far more tame than many would write, myself included. When I was in the thick of things, I wrote many scathing letters to the XH and to the OP. To me it was therapeutic - and hopefully it is for you too.

I'm sorry you're still struggling with this.

You're getting a lot of great advice here, and much of it from a male perspective - which personally I feel is better suited to your circumstances, but all of it is good nevertheless.

Right now you feel that those 5 years you've invested in this relationship is a long time, and when I was your age, I would have (and did) agree with you. Now that I'm considerably older, I think differently, and I'm sure you will too eventually. Five years compared to a lifetime (which is what you're signing up for when you marry) is really a drop in the bucket. Please don't let that override your better judgement.

Again, there is no way that you can gauge whether your GF saying "all the right things" right now is indicative of her remorse. Her actions over a long period of time can only show that. A LONG period of time - not a few weeks or a few months.

I see many book recommendations being thrown around in other posts - have you asked your GF to read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" or "Not Just Friends"? Some folks say that only the truly remorseful are able to read through these and implement the recommendations over a period of time. The rest cannot, and so it's pretty obvious that these folks are not good candidates for R. Maybe the two of you should read these books together and then discuss them.

Keep posting, toopol.

Sending you strength.

I think part of my problem is that my parents always seemed to have a very happy, very stable, pretty easy marriage. They set the standard in my mind at a very early age

Thats the kicker your parents were happily married, they had problems but worked together to address them, and were committed to each other.

Your WWGF does not possess this type of required marriage committment as she demonstrated by banging some other dude numerous times while stating her love for you. It was calculated & disrespectful and if thats the type of person you want to continue life with then good luck with that.

Lots of people on here have advised that you should leave her.

I agree with them. I'm in the camp that thinks you should get out ASAP and never look back.

She chose what she did, and I don't buy the out of town excuse. My biggest concern is how she can even expect you to consider staying. I think it's selfish for her to even ask for another chance with you. She shoulda broke up with you before screwing him. And she shoulda left you when she got home. She may be tearful and sorry, but I think she is selfish. Selfish to think she can do all this to you and expect to even have a chance.

It was not a one night stand. She did it with him over and over. Hearing you on the phone, talking about proposing, did not even cause her to blink. She kept on doing it with him. And she came home with a lifetime STD. Don't be her knight in shining armor. Don't take on the STD as a lifetime badge of honor. You deserve better than this.

I can promise you one thing. All marriages have issues and problems. It you marry her, there will be days when you argue and fight. And you'll already have the ammunition about the STD you took on for her, and the resentment about the "2nd" guy she ever had sex with. 20 years from now, in a heated argument, it will still be there in the back of your head, popping up out of context. You will carry this. Don't let it happen.

Usually it's good to let things cool off and make a wise decision. But in this case I think swift action is called for. Don't string this out any longer. Sometimes you can think too much and too long. Walk away. Get out now. It's the best for both of you.

Your mind knows what to do but you are trying your best to make up reasons to say with her because of your love for her.

Some guys forget easily. you don't seem to be the type. Some guys leave. You don't seem to be that type either.

If I have to bet, you will stay with her and waste a year or two being miserable and resentful.

Very articulate toopol. I too felt angry and sad at the him-in-the-past.

Acceptance that it happened and we can't go back and have any autonomy or say or anything in that moment - it's very hard

Empathy helped. Not just apologies and letting me be sad. When he actually joined me in that pain, imagining how it felt. Validating it. And being with me in that pain. That's when I finally felt some semblance of peace to start moving forward

Dammit!

I'm dating a woman with herpes. :(

Its a major consideration, with protection (condom) and the medication used, the chances of getting herpes is like 1 out of 1000. Of course, that sex act could be the #8.

Emotional, its there. Physical, its there. The herpes is the only thing that makes me question to do or do not.

In reality, 1 in 4~5 Americans have HSV-2. (not 50%) and so if you had sex with 10 people, theres a chance you have been exposed and nobody knew it. Since I've had sex with dozens, then its easily likely I've been in contact.

A friend was married for 10+ years with a HPV-2 wife, he never showed symptoms. Just no sex during outbreak.

I'm still working this out in my mind, shes a great women IMHO. We have more talking to do.

As others have stated, your GF weakness to giving herself to another man so easily is a major problem.

I finally talked to a friend about it. He was pretty much my only friend who I'm comfortable telling yet doesn't know my girlfriend. It was nice. In the course of the conversation, I found out that his whole family had split after his dad had three affairs in 10 years, and he's the only one that everyone still talks to. Like many of the stories on this forum, it reminds me that some people have it worse. Small comfort, though.

I think my rampant emotions are starting to settle down a bit. I'm hoping that this will let me make a decision with some more confidence. Basically, I feel like all of the attraction that brought us together is still there: we make each other laugh, turn each other on, enjoy spending time together, etc. But the underlying trust that we built up for so many years is damaged. I'm not sure where "love" fits into all that.

I don't know if she'll ever cheat on me again, and I know now that I can't ever be sure about anybody, but I think it's only rational to say that she has a greater chance of cheating on me than some hypothetical girl in my future. She regrets it and she's learned a painful lesson, but she doesn't have a clean record anymore. If she could do this to me after all our years together, she could do it again even after learning her lesson. If I stay with her, I have to accept that risk with eyes open.

She would actually be a safer option than a future random girl if she got herself into counselling and did the hard work and self-awareness exercises to determine her deep "WHY?" And learn healthy coping and communication skills...

Has she offered to attend regular IC to repair the flaws in her character that allowed the betrayal to happen?

[This message edited by sassylee at 12:20 PM, May 5th (Thursday)]

Hi toopol

This...

I don't know if she'll ever cheat on me again, and I know now that I can't ever be sure about anybody, but I think it's only rational to say that she has a greater chance of cheating on me than some hypothetical girl in my future. She regrets it and she's learned a painful lesson, but she doesn't have a clean record anymore. If she could do this to me after all our years together, she could do it again even after learning her lesson. If I stay with her, I have to accept that risk with eyes open.

...sounds like you are answering my what does your gut say question. Sounds like your gut is trying to protect you by letting you know that you believe there is still a great chance she will cheat on you again in the future. Always listen to your gut is a big saying around here and so very true.

My story is very similar to your friend's. I'm last one standing. My brother committed suicide during my mother's As which was the last nail in the coffin of my parent's marriage. The As had pretty much destroyed it anyway and then my father went and had an A of his own and destroyed himself in the process. My FOO is all gone with As at the heart of the destruction. There was never any trust there. Not between any of us.

You know her best. Listen to your gut.

yop

First, I am sorry for everything that has happened to you and I am empathetic. I am new to this world too. I am envious that you found out her true colors before life became more complicated. There are many many many wonderful people out there that would never do this to you. You will find love again.

I was not so fortunate. Seven years into marriage and three kids later I find out my spouse has been f*ing anyone who would let him. He also cheated on me multiple times during our 5 years of dating before marriage. (I have just found this out).

Life is hard and there are repercussions to your actions. Please do not continue your relationship. You will find another fish in the sea.

Has she offered to attend regular IC to repair the flaws in her character that allowed the betrayal to happen?

She hasn't offered. I haven't suggested it. Nor has our couples therapist.

I think she's still reeling with regret and fear that she ruined our relationship, and so she thinks that she's learned her lesson already. I did tell her that I thought she had proven herself to be a risk, from my perspective. If she came to me and said "I want to go to IC to understand how I was capable of this" I would be encouraged by that, but for some reason I don't want to ask her for it. And she's not really the type to go do a bunch of reading or research on her own, like me.