SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Why did I call courtship/committed relationship an audition?

She has failed the audition, as was pointed out by a wise previous poster. She has revealed her true self to you with her actions. All you need to do is open your eyes and see. It's not complicated, when you do that. See what she did. Marrying someone who has done that is just unwise, IMO. Don't end up like me, where she does this after you've had two kids and runs off with the dude. Next time it might not be a bellboy. It might be someone who has something she wants that you don't have.

Suck it up. Cut your losses. No explanations needed. "Honey, I'm sorry, but this was a deal breaker for me. Best to you. We're done." That's it. Don't look back.

This is why she failed the audition and you should leave and never look back.

When you're dating, engaged - in a committed relationship, it's assumed you are exclusive. You are in the stage of the relationship where all of the love emotions are at a peak. She should be as in to you as you are in to her. After marriage devolves into the mundane, things get boring if you don't care and nurture the relationship. And if she's cheating in this best of self time, where in the hell is she going to take this when money gets tight, or illness kicks in, or life is just plain hard?

If she can't get that you're exclusive, devoted only to each other and protect against any and all intruders into the exclusivity of the relationship in that early stage where loving and affection are spontaneous, natural feelings where you feel in awe just to be in each other's presence, then how in the world is she going to be exclusive once she said "I vow fidelity"?

Engagement is an audition. She's supposed to be putting on her best show for you to show she can always give her best self to you. Whether it's fighting, bitchiness, selfishness or cheating - these should ALL be deal breakers at the engagement point.

This is not something she can walk back on. "Sorry" doesn't take it away. There is nothing she can do to undo the damage or the reveal she's shown you about herself.

She's shown you who she really is. Take this mother's advice and believe her.

I see myself in you, a young idealistic, loving and forgiving person who so wants something that isn't there.

Take this lesson that life is not how you fantasize or imagine it to be. Learn from it.

I guess my concern here is this: Our relationship has a lot of good in it. If I leave, it might be because I'm running from reality and trying to recapture my old fantasies and idealism. If the lesson is to be less idealistic, to accept that people are capable of doing terrible things, then shouldn't I give my girlfriend a second chance? Why move on to someone else if I'm just planning to give *them* the benefit of my new, wiser, more realistic self?

SuperNBD

Just so you know, I'm pretty much skipping over posts like yours. I think you're projecting. I promise you I'm not being a doormat. I'm aware of that danger. You aren't being helpful.

Careful not to over think this.

She has failed the audition, as was pointed out by a wise previous poster. She has revealed her true self to you with her actions. All you need to do is open your eyes and see. It's not complicated, when you do that. See what she did.

This is pretty persuasive. Whenever I take a few steps back, it seems obvious. What she did was so obviously wrong, and she had so many chances to stop it, and it's such a red flag.

I guess what still gives me pause is that, now that it's over, she seems to follow the same line of thinking. Today we talked again, even though I never have anything new to say. She spoke convincingly about how horrible her actions were, and she broke down crying. Most importantly, she (finally) brought up the idea of doing her own counseling. She said that she was trying to give me all the attention and priority, but she knows that she's going to need to work on herself after that. She seems horrified that she was capable of contradicting her values like this. I believe she's sincere in that.

Honestly, what scares me is this: she acts just like *I* would act if I woke up one day and discovered that I had cheated on my partner. Who am I to judge? The obvious answer is "the betrayed boyfriend, duh. Who better to judge?" But that seems trite and shallow. Yes, I have the right to leave her. The opportunity is right in front of me, and nobody would ever judge me for breaking up with her under these circumstances. But if I believe the sincerity of her remorse, if our relationship was otherwise worthy of marriage, if she's trying to reconcile and doing everything right... is it so wrong to give it a chance?

Of course, on the other hand, fuck. She had sex with another guy for two weeks, while I was calling her every day and making plans to propose to her. Sure, everything's peachy now. But, fuck. She gave no consideration for me then.

toopol,

In a regular situation you may take all the time you need, e.g. say 6 moths, to give her chance to prove that she is for real about saving your relation and decide what to do. IMO there are 2 subjects that make this hard:

1 She got herpes, incurable STD. If you tried and then decide to leave you will carry it with you for life.

2 She was expecting to get married and start a family; obviously this went out the window the moment she cheated. In the best scenario, assuming a successful R, how long would you need to engage and marry her? She says she is willing to wait but for how long?

Maybe more info may help you to make up your mind.

When was her last interaction/communication with the AP? Have you talked to him? I don’t believe the affair is alive anymore, but I believe that was an exit one, also I believe that there was something that made her change her heart once back as you were talking to her everyday while she as lying to your face. Have you ever consider that may have been others? Have you asked her? I am sorry but cheaters lie.

Good luck

Honestly, what scares me is this: she acts just like *I* would act if I woke up one day and discovered that I had cheated on my partner.

Maybe that's true, but are you sure about that? So that I understand,are you saying that if, hypothetically, while engaged to the woman you love, you would have waked up one day and spdiscovered that you had slept with another woman, you would have acted exactly as your fiancé did? You think you would have been so overwhelmed with remorse that you would have turned to the person you'd just slept with and said, "O.k. Wow... I can't believe that happened last night. So, listen, in about two weeks this thing we have going has GOT to stop." And then you would have had sex with her for the next two weeks?

She decided to go back to this guy AFTER she had a chance to feel the full impact of guilt and remorse. ...............

.........I know. That stings. She didn't just toss you aside one time. Nope. She gladly threw you under the bus multiple times.

Don't you at least want to know why? Does she want to know why? If so, then now you and she have the fun, pre-wedding task of answering not one, but two questions: 1. Why did she do it? 2. Why did she decide to continue doing it? If you and she don't both know why, then how can either of you know if it will or won't happen again? And, since you like to analyze things from every angle, analyze this : what would be the possible answers to these two questions and which ones, if any, would be palatable to you?

[This message edited by nomistakeaboutit at 4:22 AM, May 9th (Monday)]

Part of me feels like I'm letting myself down if I allow myself to stay in this relationship.

I kind of felt that way too. I was sure I would never stay in a relationship where my partner cheated, because I am idealistic also. Sometimes I do have problems with the real world because I don't like it...it isn't nice out there. But it is the world I have to live in, so I have to adjust. And it is okay. Once I do adjust (and it takes time and rethinking my idealizations) I am okay. Life isn't black and white, and I am a better person now that I see the gray areas. I am especially a lot less judgmental and it has allowed me to have so many more friends (but I am still picky....if someone purposely does something to hurt me and doesn't have true remorse and fix it, they are history).

But I stuck with her up to this point, and I was ready to marry her, and that's not easy to ignore.

And what many posters seem to say is that even though she knew you were set to propose, she stayed with the other guy for a bit. Here is what I "thinK" may have happened there....she had doubts about your relationship for a long time, because you didn't seem as committed as she was. When the predator came in and scoped her vulnerabilities and started feeding her how he was the one, he would commit, she was special, etc....she was vulnerable to it. Even after you proposed, he was probably telling her you were just saying that and didn't really mean it because she had a long time with you where you weren't sure.

I'm not saying it excuses her behavior. Many of us would not have cheated or would not have kept going back, but we aren't her and we aren't you.

Sorry for rambling...

Ramble all you want. It is how some of us process things.

Again, you do not need to make an immediate decision. I told my SO that he was on trial for a bit and I wouldn't commit to him fully until I knew how I felt and I knew how he would handle this. He accepted that, he stayed, and he did the hard work not even being sure I would stay in the end. The fact that he sincerely worked so hard to ferret out his vulnerabilities, address them, fix them, and put into place some safeguards so when he is feeling vulnerable again we talk it thru instead of him keeping it inside and then doing something stupid convinced me that this is the relationship I've always wanted. I've always wanted a relationship where we have NO secrets, we are best friends, we have something very deep and special that no one else can come between, and we are each other's safe place. He wanted that too but didn't know how to get it and wasn't sure he was worthy of it or could ever have that. We both did counseling for this. We both had an IC, and we also had someone we saw as a couple. Personal IC helped us address our individual vulnerabilities and feelings without input from the other, and couples counseling helped us see each other's point of view and it helped me understand the "why"of what he did.

HIs level of commitment to me has stayed at the same high leve for 2 years. I am finally feeling comfortable and safe, and NOW we both feel we have something that no one else can come between because we won't let them. We both value what we have very highly, and we talk thru EVERYTHING, including some very touchy and unflattering feelings and ideas.

as an idealist, this is what I have always wanted, I just didn't know how much incredible hard work it took to get this. I"ve seen a few rare couples that do have this, and it is what I've always wanted. I'm lucky I have a partner who really wants that too and shows by actions and not just words.

I could have left again and started over with someone else. They may have remained faithful. But even if they are faithful there could be other issues. Everyone has issues. It just depends on what issues you are willing to deal with. Everything else about him was perfect for me (which is why I was so devastated when I found out about the betrayal) .

And he knows I will leave definitely if he ever does something stupid like this again. No second chance on this for me. So I don't feel I am betraying myself. I feel like we have both worked extremely hard for something we both want.

ETA: I thought what we had before was great. But looking back, it was only "surface" great. Neither of us knew each other's core. I didn't know what would break him down into a sniveling mess on the floor, and he didn't know the extent of my emotions either. We do now. We've been thru fire together. We've both laid ourselves bare before each other (talk about overcoming your fears!) and we STILL have to work on things together. It is scary to talk about our innermost fears and vulnerabilities with someone. But we can both do that with each other and it is terribly precious to us both.

Another ETA (Sorry, this is getting long!) I am not telling you to stay (or leave, that is your decision). There are actually some posts where I advise the partner to leave because their partner is not showing the remorse necessary and it is doubtful they ever will, or there has been abuse in the past. I can't say that here because you seem to have been fairly happy before this happened. So it does make this a difficult decision.

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 8:35 AM, May 9th (Monday)]

You need to really step back and look at this in the most objective way you can. Objectivity is reality. Your emotions are clouding your judgement of objective reality. Right now you are thinking with your genitals and your heart, not your rational brain. You are acting and thinking out of pure scarcity and desperation - the idea of losing your girlfriend is blinding you to the choices you need to make for your own life. To make YOURSELF happy, with the life you really want.

1. This woman made you hold out 2 years for sex.

She slept with a complete stranger, consistently, for 2 weeks, upon meeting him once. You do not know your girlfriend. As much as you think you do - you do not.

2. She kept sleeping with him during discussions of you proposing to her.

We judge people on their actions. That's all we have to go by. This woman has given you a clear indication of the human she is. There's nothing more to it.

Your relationship is utterly destroyed and unsalvageable. If you take her back, the dynamic is ruined. She feels like a trash human being right now - how will she feel about YOU if you take her back? She WON'T think "oh what a good guy i love him so much" she will think "wow, I did a deplorable thing, I behaved utterly disgustingly. This man is putting up with this behavior, this is the standard he holds himself to. I can't be with someone like this"

This line of thinking won't come about immediately, it will eat away at the dynamic of your relationship. She does not respect you. No matter what you think, you are behaving like a doormat with no self respect, no self worth, you are just blindly attached to this person who degraded you in the worst possible way she could.

This relationship is over. It is destroyed. The dynamic is destroyed and will never be the same.

Please, for your own happiness, find someone else. Find someone who respects you. This woman does not respect you and I guarantee on my mother's life, you taking her back will erode her respect for you to the point of disgust. Her words mean nothing. The fact of the matter is she had wild, no strings attached sex for 2 weeks with a complete stranger while YOU were discussing marriage proposals with her.

For God's sake, come on. You deserve better than this

Toopol,

If you stay, you will work on creating a new relationship with this woman. There are some knows about her - both good and bad. I don't doubt that she loves you. But she also holds within her a capability for great betrayal.

If you leave, you will most likely work on creating a new relationship with someone new. I'm sure you remember all the work invested in that. That person could be awesome, or also could be flawed in some way. This fictional new person is a complete unknown - a total roll of the dice.

Sure, you "deserve" more. We all do. In my opinion, anyone you meet is going to have some sort of damage that you will have to work through. I guess the question for me: is your partner willing to do the work and really look at herself?

But you know my history. My fiancé cheated and I stayed. But I feel we are in a much better place right now. I don't regret it. Even if he started cheating on me, the things I have learned about myself and about love and forgiveness are invaluable. So I'm pro-R.

Toopol,

Whether you stay or break up with her is not the real issue.

The issue is you making an informed, healthy decision that you will be comfortable with.

But, the issue is this, you need to get healthy and informed by doing things get you there.

My advice is that you take a break and go no contact with you, not to dump her, but so you can think things on your own and heal from this and make the decision that is right for you.

But if you are around her all the time, then it is going to fog/cloud your judgement.

You need to be somewhere where you dont have her there working you, and you dont have folks telling you what to do.

You need to heal from this before you decide, the goal is healing, reconciling or breaking up will call into place.

I wish you the best bro

Igotthis said -

Toopol,

Whether you stay or break up with her is not the real issue.

The issue is you making an informed, healthy decision that you will be comfortable with.

But, the issue is this, you need to get healthy and informed by doing things get you there.

My advice is that you take a break and go no contact with you, not to dump her, but so you can think things on your own and heal from this and make the decision that is right for you.

But if you are around her all the time, then it is going to fog/cloud your judgement.

You need to be somewhere where you dont have her there working you, and you dont have folks telling you what to do.

You need to heal from this before you decide, the goal is healing, reconciling or breaking up will call into place.

I wish you the best bro

This is really good advice. If you stay with her, sometime down the road your head will clear and you will look at the situation more objectively. The above action will help to move you to that point now.

Be sure to keep your board name and password somewhere safe & handy. If you keep this woman, we'll be seeing you here again soon.

toopol, you may think SuperNBD and others are projecting. You are fully entitled to skip over whatever you wish. He may be projecting. He may not be. He may be bluntly stating his life experience in an effort for you to not follow the same path into continued betrayal. My posts are of the same purpose.

You seem to be the type that will continue to change doctors until you find one that will gives you the "correct" diagnosis. She confessed because she got herpes. If no herpes, no confession. Hard to justify herpes when you were virgins and controlled your urges through two years before succombing and are in an exclusive relationship.

I say again - how do you know this was her first rodeo. Because she says it is? Polygraph.

If your life was more intertwined - children, investments, mortgages - perhaps giving it more time could be justified. You are not at that stage.

I have spent my entire adult life analyzing, recommending or implementing decisions, evaluating, living with the consequences. It is much easier to do when you are emotionally tied to the outcome. Do you know the saying that the first loss is the smallest loss? That means that one shouldn't hang onto a decision when the evidence suggests otherwise. Cut your losses before they get too big.

I wish I would have cut my losses before the investment was too large however I wasn't aware that my fiance was fucking around. Now the prospect of splitting everything will greatly affect retirement - property, investments, a ranch, pensions, not to mention family issues like daughters and granchildren.

It could well be that those who are commenting in a way that you don't find helpful are the very comments you should be paying special attention to. Perhaps they are attemping to help you avoid the painful things they are dealing with while they are somewhat of a lesser impact.

You can make whatever decision you want. It is your life.

I am sorry this happened to you. I understand how devastating it can be. It does not get any easier when you add children, finances and 20 years of shared memories to the mix. The problem was nit the other guy but how she chose to deal with the issues she was having regarding your relationship. This is supposed to be the time when things are easiest and your partner is often at their best. If you are having these kind of difficulties now then you really need to think about moving on. It may not be easy but trust me you do not want to be looking back at your life as a forty year old wondering how much of your life was a lie that your spouse created so she could have her cake and eat it too.

Hi toopol

Sorry for the crap your WG has dished out to you.

I have read this thread once already and had decided to stay out of it, but something didn't sit right with me about your WG's story.

My reason is I don't believe she had a sexathon with a 'desk clerk' for two weeks. More than likely it was with a COW that went with her on the business trip. I mean why would she (a career woman) be spending all of her free time with a desk clerk. I think she may be giving you a cock and bull story to protect the AP.

I agree with steadychevy about getting her to take a polygraph.

Be prepared to hear just enough TT to try to get you to forget about the polygraph. A parking lot confession is still another possibility. If you decide to go the polygraph route be sure to follow through. At least you should get a little clarity or peace of mind.

Sure it could be the desk clerk, but I seriously doubt it.

Good luck to you!

Toopol,

If I may I would like to interject a question or two and perhaps more (if I think of them). In the most ideal scenario, since this horrible thing has happened to you; how would you like the story to end? Meaning is your heart set on forgiving her and moving forward or are you not sure yet? It seems (forgive me if I am wrong) like you are leaning in the direction of staying, because this is what feels comfortable to you, but you have this nagging pain (which could be most of us LOL) telling you that is not the correct choice. Is this true?

Do you feel guilty about making her wait to marry? Is this going into your decision? Has she suggested this to you perhaps between the lines? If so Stop feeling guilty about this. . . many of us would agree that at such a young age you have every right to think as long and hard as you wish about marriage. It is NOT something to be entered into lightly. Absolutely not. If I would have pondered longer I may not be on this sight today.

I thought I have read all the post, but I must of missed one did she really tell you that reading something to help your relationship would be to hard? Man, my response to that would be to say "well my gf cheating on me is too hard, but I am here at-least for now doing the work, Do some work." IF she cares enough she will read the damn book. period. It's the least she can do. If I misunderstood that part somehow ignore the whole paragraph.

Personally, to me there is something off about her story, I don't want to say she is a liar, but I can just kind of feel it. She is leaving something out. . . something. I hope I am wrong.

You have to do what is best for you, I want what is best for you and so does everyone here. We are not trying to be Debbie Downers. You will eventually figure it out, but just if you decide to stay love with your eyes wide open, Please.

Jose

Nah, a polygraph is a waste of time. And I'm someone who had my wife take one, so I believe in them, but in your case, what's the point?

Look, this is going to come across as a bit harsh, but I don't mean it to be. More like a bucket of cold water splashed in your face.

Here's what you know:

1) You were exclusive and didn't have sex with each other for 2 years

2) You wanted to propose

3) She went on a trip and ended up having sex with the bellboy despite a 2 year exclusive relationship with you

4) you spoke to her on the phone and told her you wanted to propose

5) She still kept having sex with bellboy

6) She contracted herpes

7) She confesses

What will a polygraph help? As others have said, the absolutely only reason she confessed is because she contracted herpes and had to tell you. Otherwise, you never would have known.

And knowing you wanted to marry her was not enough to prevent her from having sex with this guy.

So where is she at? Well, she's fucked. She knows there's no life for her with bellboy and you are her best shot. Anyone else she has a relationship with she'll have to inform about her STD and they may very well not want her. So she is doing her utmost to convince you not to dump her.

toopol, as you said:

Whenever I take a few steps back, it seems obvious.

That's because in your case it is.

she acts just like *I* would act if I woke up one day and discovered that I had cheated on my partner.

No one "wakes up" having cheated. It is a conscious decision. A choice. One she made repeatedly.

Who am I to judge?

I'm sorry, but I hate this. I don't want to go on a societal rant, but there are objectively bad behaviors. It's not about judging her. It's about saying she did something horrible at a time when you are all she should have been thinking about.

What you are hearing from those who've posted on this thread are years of experience dealing with life, marriage, its ups and downs, and from folks who've all been affected by infidelity. And you haven't even gotten to the married part yet. That's why the overwhelming chorus is pleading for you to run.

But if I believe the sincerity of her remorse, if our relationship was otherwise worthy of marriage, if she's trying to reconcile and doing everything right... is it so wrong to give it a chance?

Why would you believe it? On one hand, you have her words after having been forced to confess due to her contraction of herpes. On the other, you have her actions - betraying you and having sex with another guy for two weeks despite your profession of love and designs on marriage. Why do you believe the former and not the latter?

In the end, this is the sunk cost fallacy in action. You already invested all this time, why not keep at it, right? But you don't have anything holding you down other than a relationship you thought was a good one with a person who you thought had your back. You were wrong. Look, you aren't married. You don't have kids. Your whole life is ahead of you. Don't throw good money (you) after bad (her). Know when to fold 'em.

Of course, on the other hand, fuck. She had sex with another guy for two weeks, while I was calling her every day and making plans to propose to her. Sure, everything's peachy now. But, fuck. She gave no consideration for me then.

No. No she didn't. And that's why we are all telling you to find someone who deserves you. You are obviously thoughtful, introspective, sensitive and good hearted. There are many girls out there whom with you could have a wonderful relationship with. Go find one.

[This message edited by Walloped at 4:15 PM, May 9th (Monday)]

I keep running into this problem where I look like I'm ignoring everyone's advice and blindly "shopping around" for people who will agree with me. That's not the case. I'm reading everything here, and I really do appreciate the perspectives you've given me. When I talk to my girlfriend, I challenge her story, I challenge her sincerity, and I bring up things that you all suggest. When I post here, I do the opposite: I make a case for staying, and I challenge the folks who are certain I should leave. That's how I work through it. Right now, I'm giving myself time to think, but I lean towards breaking up. If someone put a gun to my head and made me choose between marrying her or running, you can be sure I'd run.

That said, I am still working through it. Thank you for staying patient with me.

In terms of the factual details of her story, I try to consider other possibilities, but I genuinely don't think she's lying to me. For various reasons, it's not plausible that she actually slept with a co-worker instead of the hotel guy. She actually told me about the friendly guy at the front desk early in the trip (and then I stopped hearing about him and never gave it a second thought). I also believe that she decided to tell me about the affair (and indicated this on the phone) before she knew about the herpes, based on the timing of her symptoms and some comments that she made when she confessed. Don't worry: I'm not giving her full credit for confessing, since she kept having sex with him until she had to come home. And I realize that it's contradictory to tell the other guy "I intend to try to stay with my boyfriend" and still sleep with him. But she acknowledges that, and her story has never changed over time. The other guy definitely still wants to be with her and (stupifyingly) still denies that he gave her herpes. So I ultimately don't think the alternative stories that some have suggested ("she got herpes and that's the only reason she confessed" or "he dumped her and that's the only reason she confessed" or both) are true.

And what many posters seem to say is that even though she knew you were set to propose, she stayed with the other guy for a bit. Here is what I "thinK" may have happened there....she had doubts about your relationship for a long time, because you didn't seem as committed as she was. When the predator came in and scoped her vulnerabilities and started feeding her how he was the one, he would commit, she was special, etc....she was vulnerable to it. Even after you proposed, he was probably telling her you were just saying that and didn't really mean it because she had a long time with you where you weren't sure.

This is accurate. In that conversation, when I told her that I was making plans to propose, she expressed worry that I was just being dragged into it, and that I didn't really mean it. She said she wanted to be with someone who felt like they couldn't live without her. I didn't realize that she had someone else telling her all that stuff, but that seems to be why it didn't stick. She also complained (at the time) that I sounded "monotone" when I was trying to reassure her, like I didn't really care. She was wrong, but it sorta kinda explains how she could keep up her fear and delusions about our relationship.

If I may I would like to interject a question or two and perhaps more (if I think of them). In the most ideal scenario, since this horrible thing has happened to you; how would you like the story to end? Meaning is your heart set on forgiving her and moving forward or are you not sure yet?

I'm not sure what to do. My ideal scenario is to end up with someone just like her, except someone who will never cheat on me. She promises that she can be that person. Really, our relationship was good. I was ready to marry. If we could come out of this healed and stronger, I want that. But I don't know if that's worth trying for. It's very confusing; if I left her and started dating again, I'd be looking for someone just like her in most respects. And it's hard to find someone like that who will find me attractive and love me and want to be with me forever. She's promising all of that! It's hard to walk away from. But she hurt me so, so much, and I'm not just going to ignore that.

Do you feel guilty about making her wait to marry? Is this going into your decision? Has she suggested this to you perhaps between the lines? If so Stop feeling guilty about this. . . many of us would agree that at such a young age you have every right to think as long and hard as you wish about marriage. It is NOT something to be entered into lightly. Absolutely not. If I would have pondered longer I may not be on this sight today.

Yes and no. Fundamentally, I don't think it's wrong to wait a long time before marriage, and I sure as hell don't think it's any excuse to cheat. But I do feel some guilt for how I handled myself. I had a tendency to clam up and avoid difficult conversations. For a long time, I didn't feel totally confident in marrying her, but I never gave us the chance to get there. Once we started counseling (a year ago) and figured that out, the relationship improved. I feel a little guilty that I didn't figure that out sooner. But that guilt doesn't impact me much right now. As far as relationship sins go, it's NOTHING compared to what she did.

I thought I have read all the post, but I must of missed one did she really tell you that reading something to help your relationship would be to hard?

No, she never said this. I never brought it up. I tend to be the type who will go research and dive deep into a subject, including infidelity. She has never been the type to do that, so she hasn't gone out and read books or forums or whatever. We went to some extra counseling sessions together, and she recently said that she knows she needs to work on herself, and I'm certain that she'd read books or whatever if I asked her to. Her commitment to reconciling isn't really a concern for me.

No one "wakes up" having cheated. It is a conscious decision. A choice. One she made repeatedly.

I'm sorry, but I hate this. I don't want to go on a societal rant, but there are objectively bad behaviors.

I hear you. I guess what I'm thinking is: everyone sometimes does bad things. Everyone contradicts their values at some point. There are lots of things that I objectively know I ought to do, and I don't do them, because I'm human and I'm weak and I rationalize it in the moment. I have made terrible choices and woken up the next day forced to face the terrible reality of what I've done. And so, in that sense, I can empathize with her remorse.

On the other hand, it's one thing to be empathetic and understanding as a friend. As the victim of her choices, as the one that she actively hurt, it's something else. I'm pretty sure I can forgive her eventually, but I might prefer to forgive her from a distance, as an ex-boyfriend, rather than as her lover, with the knife still sticking out of my back.

Please keep in mind what I wrote at the top of this post. I'm undecided. I'm working through it, and I play devil's advocate sometimes. I appreciate your help and your perspective!

You wrote this on the first page of this thread:

Please don't jump down my throat if I sound like I'm just in denial. I need to process this, and I want to ask more questions and push back a little. It's not because I'm not listening. It's because I want to hear more.

I know you're processing. I know you're not jumping to R - otherwise you'd be clinging to the members that discussed R in a favourable light. You will take the time you need to reach a decision you are comfortable with.

Is she still in touch with bellboy?