SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

toopol, IMO IC is needed for both of you and couples therapy can end up being damaging if done with a WS that hasn't done the "work". If you read enough on SI you will find considerable stories where the MC was very detrimental. Much of the "blame" was foisted onto the BS and how they needed to change for the WS's benefit.

You indicated above that your WGF hasn't suggested IC and probably won't nor does she do the research or reading. What is she doing to dig down to determine the "whys". Without doing the work she will never get to the bottom of why she cheated and how she gave herself permission and encouragement to cheat and to continue cheating. You can't do the work for her. IMO, she won't be miraculously cured and will never do that again. She wasn't going to do it in the first place, was she. But she did. I would still wonder if she hadn't before, as well, and it was the herpes that necessitated the confession. A polygraph could clear that up.

My WW was never going to commit adultery. But she did. I now find out that she cheated before we married, she cheated on her previous boyfriend and she cheated again after 25 years of marriage to me. But she was never going to cheat. She never did the work. She never had to. Now we are in this mess.

If your WGF doesn't do the work you will be living with a ticking time bomb. It may lay dormant for some time. It may never explode but it will always be there and who knows what will set it off. For my WW it was simply opportunity. The only way to safety is to defuse the time bomb or to avoid it all together.

toopol,

Haven't commented before (I've been away), but this struck me:

I think she's still reeling with regret and fear that she ruined our relationship, and so she thinks that she's learned her lesson already.

Yes, she's feeling regret and fear, but why does she think she learned her lesson? How exactly? Look - she knew you were going to propose and that wasn't enough. What's changed? The fact that she confessed? We both know that's only because she contracted an STD. So how did she learn her lesson? Because she sees you in pain? Because she now realizes she ruined her relationship with you and no other guy is going to want her with a lifelong STD?

That's not learning a lesson. That's fear and self-preservation. The lesson she's learned, if any, is to take better care not to let you find out.

One other thing - others have said this and it bears repeating. Marriage is tough work. I'm not talking about bad marriages. It takes tremendous effort to have a good marriage. The best marriages? They don't just happen - they exist because both partners work at it. A lot. They learn to deal with life's curveballs, the ups and downs, the stresses, and they work on improving themselves and their relationship. Some of us here had great marriages and others not so great, yet here we are. Because somewhere down the road, our spouses stopped working at us. There will always be opportunities to cheat. She seized one before you were even married. What do you think will happen when you have two kids, financial concerns, and other stressors? She's already showed she has poor coping skills and doesn't value your relationship as much as you do - why do you think she won't opt for this again? because she said so? Again, self-preservation.

Heed the excellent advice you've been given here.

My husband's affairs were long-term. So on my own dday, it was hard for him to just write it off as some small event. In a sense, that made it easier for him to see this was part of *him* that he needed to work on. Not just something to regret.

She hasn't offered. I haven't suggested it. Nor has our couples therapist.

Who suggested you guys initially go to couples therapy? Is this therapist actually experienced in infidelity ? And now that the focus of what you guys are seeing her has so drastically shifted, is she still providing useful means to understand, process, grieve, and work through the infidelity?

I think she's still reeling with regret and fear that she ruined our relationship, and so she thinks that she's learned her lesson already.

That is troubling. And sounds like she wants to rugsweep. "btdt, learned my lesson. Am so sorry"

If she came to me and said "I want to go to IC to understand how I was capable of this" I would be encouraged by that, but for some reason I don't want to ask her for it. And she's not really the type to go do a bunch of reading or research on her own, like me.

An important thing I was told in IC was to watch what my husband did that I did *not* ask.

You told her you were going to propose.

She was so happy that she went and fucked another dude numerous times, not using any protection, found out she had a VD and suddenly realised she was banging the bell boy and if she stayed with her FB was looking at a life of $500 a month apartments or a 40 yo trailer, and decided that maybe her loyal BF would accept the dagger she slammed into his back if she says all the right things he wants to hear.

I just don't understand why you are even talking to her, let alone trying to decide if you want to go to counselling or stay together.

Seriously man, if one of your friends or a relative told you the events that you have told us what would you tell them to do.

I did everything wrong after dday 1. I didn't know how to be a proper BW. I think it's the same for WS. Society is drenched with misinformation about infidelity due to media, celebrity drama and pathetically one-sided Hollywood portrayals from the foggy wayward perspective. It's not surprising that your wgf doesn't know what to do.

It's important going forward that you learn to communicate what you need. It would be nice if your wgf just instinctively knew what to do and offered IC. I think you should require it and gauge her reaction. If it's not an immediate "yes - whatever you feel will help", you should reevaluate.

edit: another duplicate - initial post, but incomplete. see next one.

[This message edited by k8la at 7:52 PM, May 6th (Friday)]

Speaking as a mom here. My son started dating a girl quite some time ago. She's a bit on the wild side and he's a rescuer. Reminds me a bit like you in how you've posted.

Anyway - shortly after he popped the question and put a pricey ring on her left hand, she decided that she should be able to still go hang out with co-workers after work... who happened to be male... one at a time... Dinner dates, on Saturday nights kind of thing.

I flat out told my son that engagement is the trial run for marriage and if she can't even be faithful while she's in the audition stage why on earth would he expect her to be faithful after he's locked into something he had hoped to only do once.

I'm going to give you the same advice and let you know, your girlfriend failed the audition. I suggest that you check and see what else is out there, because this girl has sold you on her uniqueness, but frankly - she's just selfish and there are a whole lot better, faithful girls out there to choose from. Cut her loose, along with her STI.

[This message edited by k8la at 7:45 PM, May 6th (Friday)]

Ouch! duplicate!

[This message edited by k8la at 7:44 PM, May 6th (Friday)]

duplicate... again??!

[This message edited by k8la at 7:43 PM, May 6th (Friday)]

duplicate... Sorry!

[This message edited by k8la at 7:43 PM, May 6th (Friday)]

wow! 5 times? I've never had that happen to me!

oookaaayy! I guess it was 6 times.

[This message edited by k8la at 7:52 PM, May 6th (Friday)]

...sounds like you are answering my what does your gut say question. Sounds like your gut is trying to protect you by letting you know that you believe there is still a great chance she will cheat on you again in the future. Always listen to your gut is a big saying around here and so very true.

It's funny: I've gotten a lot of people telling me "it sounds like you want to stay" and a lot of other people telling me "it sounds like you really want to leave".

I honestly don't know where my head is at right now. My emotions aren't swinging wildly around anymore. She's been very good the last few days, and we've talked about the affair from time to time. She still seems remorseful and loving. But now that I'm not feeling so devastated, I'm feeling jaded and bitter. I've always had a certain romanticism and idealism at heart, and that was deeply damaged. I *liked* that part of myself, and sometimes I want to leave just so I can recapture it, so I can find "true love" with another girl. But more often, I feel like I've been shown the foolishness of that hope, and now I'm doomed to live in the real world, where sometimes people cheat on you and it sucks but it's not the end of the world. Nor necessarily the end of the relationship.

The friend that I recently spoke to told me that I'm handling it well if I want to stay. I'm not hiding my anger, and my girlfriend knows she's on thin ice. I'm not just ignoring it and saying "please don't do it again". Hearing that from him kinda made me feel like I had already decided to stay and that I'm just temporarily in denial. But that thought, in turn, made me angry, and made me want to contemplate leaving more urgently. Part of me feels like I'm letting myself down if I allow myself to stay in this relationship. But I stuck with her up to this point, and I was ready to marry her, and that's not easy to ignore.

Sorry for rambling...

It's your life to live. In the end it's up to you.

There are women out there who don't do this.

But there are no guarantees either way.

Read "No More Mr Nice Guy" it's a free download no matter which way you go. It's helped many.

I haven't commented before but I've been reading your updates and such. But I felt compelled to finally respond. Please don't let that part of you die. That feeling of pure love and that idea of innocent love and bliss... Don't give up on that. You are not tied down. There's absolutely zero attachment to her besides feelings and well, we all know feelings come and go quicker then we can comprehend. Find yourself someone who can be that person you long for. It's not foolish and believe me, I miss that feeling. But I do have kids I'm thinking about and giving it another go for us, but you have nothing to keep you down to her. I miss who I used to be before WH affair. I had that dream and I thought I was living it until my world came crashing down. You are young, you are not married and you are not a father. Give yourself that chance to be happy with someone else who has your best interest at heart and not someone who took advantage of your trust and love. If you were my child I'd tell you the same. Life isn't worth staying unhappy for the sake of someone else. She had zero consideration in your emotions and she had zero respect for you as a person and partner. Move on and find someone else. Be true to yourself and find that person who is longing to solely commit to you. You deserve it.

It's important going forward that you learn to communicate what you need. It would be nice if your wgf just instinctively knew what to do and offered IC. I think you should require it and gauge her reaction. If it's not an immediate "yes - whatever you feel will help", you should reevaluate.

I could do that, and I'm 99% certain that she'd immediately say yes, but I don't know how satisfying that would be either. Like, if we take it to the extreme, I could ask all sorts of things from her, to the point where I'm practically orchestrating her own display of remorse. It would be everything I want from her, but it would be empty of meaning.

At the same time, I take your point. With the cheating itself, she should have known better. In the aftermath, she's ignorant.

Please don't let that part of you die. That feeling of pure love and that idea of innocent love and bliss... Don't give up on that.

I don't know! "Don't give up on that" seems to be the moral of every story, but it doesn't seem like reality is cooperating. With my current girlfriend, I had never even stopped to consider whether she was capable of cheating on me, because it didn't even seem like it was in the realm of possibility. It was something that happened to other, less loving, less committed couples. But no, it could even happen to me. Even she could do it.

I do believe that there are other girls who would never cheat on me, but how can you possibly know who they are? I can't see the future, and my sense of others' character has failed me so far. Who is going to seem more safe than she did? Nobody.

So even though infidelity is not inevitable, how can I ever go into a future relationship feeling totally safe from it? I miss that sense of purity and innocence, but it's proven to be a delusion so far.

Toopol,

You tell her what you require. It's alright if it's a roadmap for remorse. If she's not genuine, I guarantee, she won't be able to keep it up for long.

My husband has been meeting my requirements for nearly 4 years now. We've run into a couple speed bumps in the area of boundaries with coworkers, but he's been honest about it and willing to adjust. After decades of poor boundaries, change takes time.

I'm not advising you to R or run...only you can make that decision. I'm just throwing shit out there to see what sticks for you. You're not rug sweeping and you're not proposing, so I think you're doing fine.

Life won't ever offer guarantees - except death and taxes. I think time will give you the clarity you seek - then you just gotta hope you chose well - either way.

[This message edited by sassylee at 11:20 PM, May 7th (Saturday)]

Part of me feels like I'm letting myself down if I allow myself to stay in this relationship.

Gently, you are. Don't do this to yourself. You deserve better.

I see myself in you, a young idealistic, loving and forgiving person who so wants something that isn't there.

Take this lesson that life is not how you fantasize or imagine it to be. Learn from it. You will get more clarity as this episode in your life retreats in the rear view mirror.

Put her behind you and move on. You should treat your life, your future, with greater respect. Don't settle for this.

Hey toopol, I am on the side of others who say she is doing self-preservation.

She is telling you what YOU want to hear. If she gives a damn, reading books *ISN'T TOO HARD* to do for a relationship!

I bet that she, like most people of today - have plenty of time to spend hours on facebook or looking a funny pictures all day. But work on your relationship?! hell no.

I thought my cheating wife was remorseful and was doing a lot more than your "girlfriend", until I caught her in contact with the OM. This was moments before we were going to make love. Oh, that didn't happen. I thought everything was going already in our recovery, and this was months in.

So no, your girl isn't doing the work. She has herpes and you're willing to stay with her, pay her bills and give her babies. Meanwhile, she'll likely bang that bellboy again whenever she has the chance. Maybe she'll even join the herpes dating site and hook up with other REAL MEN that will make her scream.

Locate the free PDF: Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Your girlfriend isn't doing the work. You're an easy mark. She'll cheat on your again! She had NO remorse for getting pounded in the rear by that guy while you were on the phone talking about marriage. She didn't think anything ABOUT YOU! And you don't have kids.

You're being used.

Read this other book: The Human Magnet Syndrome by Ross Rosenberg

I'm dealing with my own crap, but right now - you have a VERY easy exit point. Break contact with her for 30 days. No MORE contact. Go to IC.

You marry her, you *WILL* likely get herpes in the next 1~5 years, especially WHEN you are married and think "what the hell, I'll be married to you forever because I LUV YOU!" And even more likely, is her cheating on you again and again and again (don't forget the dating site for people with herpes!).

Then you'll get your 9~18month sores on your penis to remind you HOW you got it, her cheating on you. And when you do finally divorce her, your dating pool has shrunk to 1/4 of what it could have been.

And if you have kids with her, then you are stuck looking at her, talking with her until the kids are grown, and even then - you'll be attached to her when your adult kids are sick or getting married, etc.

Dump her.

Then she'll really feel remorse.

I know you are getting a lot of advice in both directions. You are right to be cautious. It comes down to what you can live with, and what you want. Only you can decide, its easy to look at a situation and say leave or stay from the outside. But being outside also give clarity.

You don't have it so easy. You aren't on the outside and you have to deal with your thoughts, desires and emotions. The only way to sort all of that our is time. Be patient, you are young. She may be what you want in the end, and she may not be. Just like any other relationship. You have the added knowledge of what she is capable of. This may be out of character for her. That is a decision that you have to make on your own. Be patient. Let everything sink in for a while. just like being outside of the situation brings clarity, so does distance in time. Be patient and observe. Find your own clarity.

Careful not to over think this.

She has failed the audition, as was pointed out by a wise previous poster. She has revealed her true self to you with her actions. All you need to do is open your eyes and see. It's not complicated, when you do that. See what she did. Marrying someone who has done that is just unwise, IMO. Don't end up like me, where she does this after you've had two kids and runs off with the dude. Next time it might not be a bellboy. It might be someone who has something she wants that you don't have.

Suck it up. Cut your losses. No explanations needed. "Honey, I'm sorry, but this was a deal breaker for me. Best to you. We're done." That's it. Don't look back.

If you really don't know what to do, which it sounds like you don't, please err on the side of caution and take this advice (along with many others who have offered the same advice) and walk away. She didn't make a mistake. She disclosed her true self. You will not change her. She will not change, primarily because she doesn't know and may never know why she's so broken. It took her whole life to get her to this point. Discovering her issues (her whys), understanding them, working to retool her perspectives and letting go of wrong thinking and learning new thinking is all needed. How's that going to happen? she would have years and years ahead of her to try and accomplish all of this, and in the meantime you are effectively left in limbo,not knowing if she is going to make it.

In some ways it's much easier for you to stay, but easy is not what you need to be striving for here. Suck it up, be strong, and leave her, or understand you have more of the same ahead in the years to come.