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everyone sometimes does bad things. Everyone contradicts their values at some point.

I disagree. Look at how many betrayed spouses that never cheat.

The big question here is if she can take everything life is going to throw at her and still not cheat on you. I've been married 20 years. We've had great years and bad years. Sometimes our life is bad and she's at fault, sometimes I'm at fault, sometimes it just is. I had a couple of women pursuing me, but I never cheated on her and immediately told her about it.

A mature relationship has ups and downs. Can she handle the parts that suck?

everyone sometimes does bad things. Everyone contradicts their values at some point.

Sure they can. But this statement is just too broad. Do you think that everyone contradicts their CORE values at some point? Because that would show some real pessimism about the human race.

Sure, your WGF could become a safe partner in the future. A very safe partner. But what are you going to base this on? Obviously not her past behavior. All said and done, you are going to have to make a judgement call on her future reliability.

You see that? You WILL be the one to judge her, because a judgement will need to be made. And there is nothing callous or condescending about it.

Look at this another way. There must be a reason you had doubts. You freely admit that it took a year of counseling before you were ready to marry her. You have not said why, but I assure you you don't need counseling to find a mate. So this tells me that she was not the one for you.

Then she is gone on a trip. Almost immediately she jumps in the sack with a total stranger. When did she have time to attend to business? Telling her AP that she was going to stay with you while lying in bed with him is a massive FU to you. This person is not thinking right.

Add to this they were not using condoms. What does that say about where her head was, and the level of respect for you?

And now she has a permanent std. BUT, she loves you!

Man read this post again

Seems to me if she cared about you, she might suggest you take some time away to meet your needs. Instead she is clinging like a lamprey. And only after a week of your torment does it finally dawn on her that maybe she should seek help from a professional!

Friend, if you had reasonable doubts before, there must have been a reason. She knows this. So she took a grenade and threw it in your lap. Step away, look at it coldly. Your GF is whacky to even consider asking you to stay with her. Just remember the old her you talk about coming back is the one you were not wild about marrying.

You are analyzing this with you leaning this way and that while she is working 24/7 to make you a permanent plan b. You owe her nothing. If you marry her, at least do it with open eyes. This is not a very nice lady, and she has mega issues that cannot be resolved by a trip down the aisle.

I think you got it twisted man. Ultimately it's your life and you can do whatever you want, it affects zero people but yourself.

End of the day it's all just advice. If it was so clear cut, you probably would have stopped posting and rode off into R land.

Interesting comment toopol.

My ideal scenario is to end up with someone just like her, except someone who will never cheat on me. She promises that she can be that person.

We all like to hold on to the familiar, it's human nature I guess.

However, if you decide to leave you will embark on a journey of personal change and discovery, and have new and different experiences. In time, the words above will be less and less meaningful,as long as you don't get stuck in the past.

How do I know? Thirty years ago I left my WW and started a new life. The first couple of relationships I had were with women who looked similar to my XWW. Thirty years later I am with a woman who is almost the complete opposite to my XWW. I still see my XWW at family functions, and we always invite her and her husband to our place for Christmas to make it easier for the children and grandchildren (God bless my W). Occasionally I have wondered how in the world I stayed married to her for so long (16 years), even putting aside the A.

When she cheated and my world came crashing down, I thought I couldn't live without her. I left two years later (yes it took me that long) and now I wonder how I lived with her.

It may not look like it now, but there is a great future waiting for you when you're ready to focus on it.

Time is a great healer and great teacher if you want to learn to really live again.

Bipass

My reason for thinking that you have already made up your mind to stay is that you are still actively seeing her. Yes, I understand that it's not easy to walk away from the years and commitment you have shown each other but... You also can't move forward if you are spending nights/weekends with her getting promised the world. How can anyone think straight when the Remorseful one is with them apologizing every chance she gets.

You also vacillate between... I have this romantic mindset of what a relationship should be and she is all of that but... - 2 weeks straight of sex with a stranger that works at a hotel and gave her herpes when she knew I was getting ready to purpose. The "romantic mindset" also doesn't jive with your comments on ... Herpes in this day an age isn't that big a deal to me... and she cheated once but isn't there a chance the next girl will too?... The she's perfect for me except for the (sex/herpes/t week thing) also doesn't jive with the "we've been in couples counseling for years..."

I don't know, I just think you are putting way too much work/though into a relationship that should still be in the "honeymoon" phase.

If you do have this romantic view point on what marriage should be like it would be a no brainier. Someone that did this to you ONCE prior to marriage is not EVER going to be this perfect little wife/mother.

If you weren't young, or if you had kids, or if she didn't have herpes... I'd be a bit more comfortable with you sticking it out for this long but you were given what most of us would call a gift. You were given a chance to see what your GF is capable of prior to marriage/kids.

That's another thing... she was capable of doing this. You've got this "perfect" image of her ... except for this one thing (sex...). Think about what it would have taken for you to do that to her... could you ever see yourself taking one of the hotel waitstaff to bed for a week while continuing to talk "lovy/dovy to you gf at home each night?

That's another thing... she was capable of doing this. You've got this "perfect" image of her ... except for this one thing (sex...). Think about what it would have taken for you to do that to her... could you ever see yourself taking one of the hotel waitstaff to bed for a week while continuing to talk "lovy/dovy to you gf at home each night?

This is what would be the show stopper for me. The going back for more takes it to a completely different level of fucked up, IMO. Her overt intentionality, capability of disregarding her commitment to you, total disregard for you, lack of integrity, and complete recklessness (unprotected sex) combine to create this big, "Wait...WHAT!?", which you're now forced to try and decipher.

All it is, is that you saw what she is like when no one is looking. She's much more immature, selfish, reckless and uncaring that you thought. I believe your image of her is an inaccurate one, to be very candid. I think most people do this - project into their loved ones the characteristics they want them to have. I know I did. It's a necessary thing to do, I guess, in some ways. But when your projected image of a person is blown apart by their actual behavior, take note.

I think your going to regret staying with her. There will come a time when she starts acting the same way and your going to have to face this same thing all over again. The only problem with that is its clear your like most of us. You over think it. Your going to recall this time and everything everyone has told you and realized just how much you ignored really good advice. Its going to be as painful as the betray is. I strongly believe "Once a Cheater always a Cheater". I know it doesn't mean that everyone that cheats will continue this same patter but until you can really identify who those people are you could very well be setting yourself up for failure again. Its just like one of the other posters already said. Its so much more simpler to just look at the facts. She knew you were going to propose and she still did it. Sure that hurts like hell to hear but it is the truth and you need to look at that for what it really is. She did not care for you or your relationship with her enough to say NO. She was and still is willing to throw you away and some meaningless sex with someone else. You now get the added bonus of that she has a disease from her choice.

I would have already told her to leave with the first thing alone. The disease would only cement the betrayal more in my mind. Staying with and dealing with this disease will only be a constant reminder to you.

Only you can choose what you want in life and who you want to be with but I really think you need to walk away from this relationship. You deserve so much better.

C

toopol - just letting you know, you're still the captain of your ship. You know the most about your situation, who you are, who she is. I understand why people are recommending you cut bait. There's a lot of reasons for that. I think that if I were in your shoes I'd leave. But I'm not in your shoes. It's your call my friend. You have to trust your gut. If you decide to stay, it doesn't mean you're stupid, and it doesn't mean you're a doormat. If you decide to leave, it doesn't mean you're smart, and it doesn't mean you're strong.

I will say this, I don't think you should ever stay if you think that the affair continues or if you feel there's a good chance that it will continue.

If you don't know what to decide, it's ok not to decide anything for the moment. You don't have to rush. Take your time. You'll figure it out.

That's another thing... she was capable of doing this.

This is a very important point. I once asked my wife if she'd ever cheat on me again. Standard answer should be of course not, right? She said she didn't know. She never thought she'd have cheated on me in the first place and yet she had a 3 month affair. So how could she say no, now? Sure, it would be self-serving, but while she doesn't like to think of herself as a person who would do that to her husband, she obviously did so there's something within her that let her. And unless she actively worked on that, it would always be a part of her. Personally, I'm not worried about that - I wouldn't be in R if I were, but the key is she recognized that this is who she is. Someone capable of cheating. And no platitudes of "I'll never do it again" without real work, honest introspection, matter one iota.

Your GF is someone capable of cheating on you. This is who she is. How do we know? Because she did it. That just doesn't change.

Now how does that compare with the image you have of her for the past 2 years? One big shot of cognitive dissonance.

Look, this whole thing is a mind fuck. It just is. This person whom you love and thought you knew. It's not a question of why they did it as much as, what really is a punch to the solar plexus, how could they do it?

I remember immediately post my DDay when folks here when questioning everything my wife said or did and I was defending her, because she was my wife of 20+ years and she'd never lie to me, and then it would hit me what she did (physical affair for 3 months). It's like the paradox in bad sci-fi movies where the computer starts smoking because it can't handle it. That's what you're facing. We get it. We do.

The key though is that for your own benefit you need to stop looking at your GF through rose colored lenses. She is not who you thought she was. That doesn't make her a bad person, just different. And that different aspect is that she's capable of hurting someone and betraying them and their trust and breaking their heart. Causing pain on this scale to someone you ostensibly love is no small thing. She is that person and always will be. The question for you is, now that you know this about her, do you still want to be with her? What makes this more acute is that the person she did this to isn't some abstract individual. You are the one she hurt.

My take having read this entire thread - and coming from someone in R - is to find someone new. I know you're tired of hearing it, but there it is. Sometimes forgiveness and reconciliation are the right choices. Sometimes breaking up is the best course of action. IMO this is one of those times.

Wishing you the best.

-W

Toopol, I am sorry this is your situation. I feel for you. It is horrid.

Some things to ruminate as you ponder the future.

Someone capable of cheating

This shadow will always be over your relationship if you marry her. Always. She is capable of cheating. She cheated.

Unprotected sex. Part of the shadow.

Lifetime STD. Part of the shadow.

Sex with a stranger she just met. Part of the shadow.

Cheating while saying she loved you. Part of the shadow.

Serious lies. Part of the shadow.

Betraying your trust. Part of the shadow.

Disrespecting you. Part of the shadow.

Disrespecting herself. Part of the shadow.

Putting your health at risk. Part of the shadow.

That shadow will be in every interaction with her. Maybe not at the front... but always lurking, rearing its darkness when you least expect it, tainting every thing you do together.

She wasn't only capable of this... she did this.

She did this to you. The man who loves her. She knew you loved her and she still did this.

Are you 100% sure it was the desk clerk who gave her the herpes?

Are you 100% sure this was the first time she did this?

and sadly, you will never be 100% sure she will not do this again.

However, if you decide to leave you will embark on a journey of personal change and discovery, and have new and different experiences....

It may not look like it now, but there is a great future waiting for you when you're ready to focus on it.

Time is a great healer and great teacher if you want to learn to really live again.

I like this perspective, bipass. Whether I choose to leave or to stay, I want to do it based on hope for a happy future, not based on my newfound cynicism.

The going back for more takes it to a completely different level of fucked up, IMO. Her overt intentionality, capability of disregarding her commitment to you, total disregard for you, lack of integrity, and complete recklessness (unprotected sex) combine to create this big, "Wait...WHAT!?", which you're now forced to try and decipher.

I mean, I totally agree, but isn't that par for the course in this forum? I see other threads of people who discover ongoing long-term affairs that involved former friends and acquaintances. At least my girlfriend is taking responsibility and acting remorseful. I certainly don't mean to downplay my own pain (I've got plenty, thanks very much!), but I don't think of my case as particularly exceptional. Am I wrong?

Your GF is someone capable of cheating on you. This is who she is. How do we know? Because she did it. That just doesn't change.

Now how does that compare with the image you have of her for the past 2 years? One big shot of cognitive dissonance.

Look, this whole thing is a mind fuck. It just is. This person whom you love and thought you knew. It's not a question of why they did it as much as, what really is a punch to the solar plexus, how could they do it?

I remember immediately post my DDay when folks here when questioning everything my wife said or did and I was defending her, because she was my wife of 20+ years and she'd never lie to me, and then it would hit me what she did (physical affair for 3 months). It's like the paradox in bad sci-fi movies where the computer starts smoking because it can't handle it. That's what you're facing. We get it. We do.

Ugh. Yes, that's exactly it. Thank you. Yes, it's a total mind fuck. How could she? How??

The key though is that for your own benefit you need to stop looking at your GF through rose colored lenses. She is not who you thought she was. That doesn't make her a bad person, just different. And that different aspect is that she's capable of hurting someone and betraying them and their trust and breaking their heart. Causing pain on this scale to someone you ostensibly love is no small thing. She is that person and always will be. The question for you is, now that you know this about her, do you still want to be with her? What makes this more acute is that the person she did this to isn't some abstract individual. You are the one she hurt.

My take having read this entire thread - and coming from someone in R - is to find someone new. I know you're tired of hearing it, but there it is.

I'm not tired of hearing it. I appreciate the input, truly. I'll have to make my own conclusions, but navigating through this haze is difficult, and I appreciate almost all of the guidance I get.

I know (and she knows) that she bears ultimate responsibility. But still, I keep wondering: how much of it was really determined by her character, and how much of it was just about circumstance? She was understandably anxious about our relationship, and she was in an foreign context separated from her usual life, and the other guy played her. That can't ever make it acceptable, but was it enough to make a good person do a bad thing? If I were in her shoes, could I have made the same mistake? I don't think so, but I can't know either way. And that seems like a critical distinction.

My girlfriend and I had another long, tearful conversation last night. I asked some new questions about the affair, and she answered them. Not all of the answers felt good to hear, but at least that makes me feel comfortable that she's telling the truth.

I felt the pain more last night than I have in a couple of weeks. I told her about all the terrible ways the affair had crept into my thoughts that day. I was wracked with sobs for a while, a real pathetic sight. All I wanted in that low moment was someone to love me, and she was there, the source of my pain and now of my comfort. She told me she was sorry, over and over, even though we both knew it wouldn't help very much. And when I finally started to recover, she started talking in detail about the depth of her own shame, and how horrible she felt whenever she thought about what she did, and she broke down like I had.

I understand the people who don't trust her, but having seen her in these situations, I don't doubt her sincerity. I think we both wish it could be undone. We talked a bit about what our life would have been like right now if she had never done it. We both wish that that were our reality. But we both know it's impossible. Maybe there's a path forward, but it's not that easy.

I felt better for a little while. But within an hour or so, I was feeling the pain again.

I don't know if it would get any easier if I committed to reconciliation, and I don't know if it would get any easier if I broke up with her. I suspect the pain is going to keep stalking me for a while regardless. It hurts so much sometimes.

We're still together right now, even though she knows I'm contemplating leaving, and life goes on. We still find each other really attractive. I still enjoy spending time with her and making her laugh. I still like the life that we've built together over the past few years. Part of me (the rational part, really) doubts that I'll actually be able to find such a good match in the future. My self esteem is fine, but I was always so shitty at dating. I thought she was a real catch, and I always felt so lucky that I had her.

But now, will I ever be able to marry her? Will I ever feel real security with her? Can I ever feel confident in choosing her as my one and only partner in life? Can I please just get over the affair? (No.) Can we please just put it behind us? (No.) Can I just get my old life back? (No.) Fuck me. I am so ready to be done with this.

toopol, I have read your entire thread and here are my thoughts (I may get bashed for this):

While there is the standard cheating script I do believe that many cases are unique to the people involved.

In your case, I believe that she fvcked up and realised that she fvcked up. She went away, got attracted to someone, was slightly upset with you which helped her justify what she wanted to do anyway, and then enjoyed two weeks of illicit sex and fun. Thats bad and she was bad to do it.

However, I do believe that she really regrets doing it and in this case I would say, given that you two actually find each other attractive still and seem to love each other now (although you are not happy with her), she should be given a second chance, and in answer to your earlier question, yes, I believe that it will take some time but you will be able to marry her, trust her and love her going forward.

Establish some firm boundaries and ground rules going forward, tread carefully for a while but I think its worth a shot given how you both feel right now.

But still, I keep wondering: how much of it was really determined by her character, and how much of it was just about circumstance? She was understandably anxious about our relationship, and she was in an foreign context separated from her usual life, and the other guy played her. That can't ever make it acceptable, but was it enough to make a good person do a bad thing? If I were in her shoes, could I have made the same mistake? I don't think so, but I can't know either way. And that seems like a critical distinction.

This....and

Not all of the answers felt good to hear, but at least that makes me feel comfortable that she's telling the truth.

this,

and We still find each other really attractive. I still enjoy spending time with her and making her laugh. I still like the life that we've built together over the past few years. Part of me (the rational part, really) doubts that I'll actually be able to find such a good match in the future. My self esteem is fine, but I was always so shitty at dating.

are what makes me feel you guys may be good candidates for reconciliation.

All infidelity is painful, but sometimes it truly is a decent person making a really, stupid, horrible, self centered choice (look at some of our amazing waywards here who have done the hard work.

The pain is going to be there for a while no matter what. It's okay. Sometimes life is painful and we just have to accept it and work thru it.

Here is my thinking. You are still attached to her and it seems, for good reason. What will it hurt to give this a little time and see if she is capable of doing what it takes? I think if you leave now, you may always wonder if this could have been it and should you have given it a chance? Sometimes, infidelity actually makes a relationship stronger and deeper in the long run....but that is only if both parties are willing to decide it is worth it and put in the hard work.

If you decide to stay, there are some things she will HAVE to do in order to make this work. She will have to show with her actions and not just her words that she is remorseful and she understand she is broken. She will have to get outside help to fix that brokenness because no one can do it on their own. You and she will have to put in place some safeguards as you both are working thru it to make sure you feel safe until she strengthens her character enough that she does not fall for something like this again (that may include no more trips without you....even if she needs to change jobs).

You will have to do some hard work also. You will have to work on becoming a stronger and more open you. You both will have to learn how to communicate better (that is a plus in any relationship).

You may even want to consider having her join our waywards here. It really helped mine. They understand completely when someone is talking BS, and they call them on it (in loving but firm ways). They will know whether she is totally dedicated to this or not and they will ask the questions you may not even realize you need to ask just yet.

Again, whatever you decide, we support you.

Toopol:

Look, brother. I understand the thought that you may be escaping reality or trying to recapture your idealism.

The real question is this: what type of man does toopol want to be?

Do you want to work through being jaded and disillusioned, when in fact you actually crave being idealistic? Who said it was a naive notion?

You are the only one in life you have to answer to, brother. If you want to be idealistic, you are the only one stopping you.

Bottom line: be the man you want to be at all levels. If, after living that way, you see that your girlfriend is no compatible with that guy, ditch her.

FTR, I would ditch her either way as I agree with the "audition" thought process. But only you can answer whether or not you can be who you want to be while still having her in your life.

Many married BS find it beneficial for R and their own financial security to put a post nup in place which includes financial protections should infidelity reoccur in the future.

If you do decide to R and marry in future you could put a pre nup in place. Another consideration is for her to keep working thru M so you wouldn't owe spousal support. Also should you decide to marry her make sure you understand your state's divorce laws. Many are no fault and do not punish a cheating spouse financially for their indiscretions.

Many of us have the unfortunate experience of knowing firsthand that "once a cheater, always a cheater" is true. Sure cheaters can be remorseful and ashamed when discovered but down the road many will turn to cheating again when they feel slighted or entitled. Just the way it is.

I can understand why you might want to try R. But I would definitely recommend that you require a polygraph. Otherwise there are things you will always wonder about the rest of your life. Like from whom and when she actually contracted the STD. Numerous people have brought this up to you. With a polygraph, you can remove many areas of concern that otherwise you are setting yourself up to think about the rest of your life. If you are sure of the answers, then what does it hurt to ask in a polygraph? Good luck to you.

I felt better for a little while. But within an hour or so, I was feeling the pain again.

I don't know if it would get any easier if I committed to reconciliation, and I don't know if it would get any easier if I broke up with her. I suspect the pain is going to keep stalking me for a while regardless. It hurts so much sometimes.

Welcome to the roller coaster (of emotions). Not a fun ride.

IMO, I think you really need to take a break from each other for a while. See how you both feel in 6 months. You may be done, you may want her back. She may move on.

But without kids or any kind of "anchor" it's easier for you to detach now and see how you feel after the roller coaster ride has died down.

Just my $0.02

I know (and she knows) that she bears ultimate responsibility. But still, I keep wondering: how much of it was really determined by her character, and how much of it was just about circumstance?

I would suggest that you don't entertain this thought for long. As I said before, she went back for more. That is truly a defining characteristic, IMO. Most people can understand how a drunken one night stand can be a mind-distorted, hormone-driven temporary lapse in judgment, but beyond that it's character in action. And, to answer your question about whether it is par for the course, I guess you're right that most of the affairs that we read about on this site do involve more than a one night stand. And, if asked, I would give most of them the same advice I've given you.

Although my vote is that you do not take her back, I was quite persuaded by Manfromlamancha's post. Your GF does sound remorseful, so maybe there is hope and maybe, maybe.

It's clear that you do want to take her back. You love her, you want her, but you're hurt and trying to make sense of what she did. O.K. It's your life and you know best for you, but don't excuse what she did because of circumstances. Opportunity will always be there for her, so she needs to learn that when she is committed to you that she is committed to you and regardless of the circumstances she must remain faithful.

I'm really sorry you are having to endure this. It is a pain like no other, and it is horrible. I applaud you for finding this site and trying hard to understand the un-understandable. I'll suggest again that you resist your inclination to overthink this whole thing, though. If you decide to take her back, I suggest making a conscious decision to do it, knowing that she fucked up and that you have clearly defined the ground rules for working on reconciliation. Forgive but don't excuse.

Best to you.