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...... my wife left our early morning conversation saying she doesn't trust me now and that she had to go cause there was a lot for her to think about. I was happy to let her go.

She has also said in the wake of my Monday night request for her to move out that she doesn't have to move out that I can't make her move out. That if she did move out it would be because she wanted to and not because I was making her (lol). I said at thE time that I didn't know why she would want to stay if it meant creating a bad environment for our children. She is correct that I cannot make her leave. My lawyer emphasized that a parent that's left the home can establish a status quo on parenting and living arrangement. That if I were to be out of the house for a prolonged period my wife could successfully argue that the kids remain full time with her as this has been the status quo in recent time. I will not be moving out. My wife has moved all of her stuff into the basement.

[This message edited by bedman at 6:55 AM, June 16th (Thursday)]

Have a VAR with you at all times my friend. There is a way she can force you out of the home.

Accuse you of DV. Typically, the police will cuff you and remove you from the home so they can *investigate*. At that point, WW can go to a judge and ask for a restraining order claiming fear for herself and the children.

You are in a precarious position right now. PLEASE, be careful. Do NOT let her provoke you.

Strength

BTDT, got the tee shirt.

5454 is right. VAR, 180 and follow through with the divorce

Per your question, there is no rush. When I first started lurking here years ago, the main advice was to go into self care and NOT make any rash decisions. Folks would say to wait six months.

I think the thinking has changed as there the BW/BH ratio has reached parity.

And YES, do not let yourself be provoked!!! Be careful!!

My wife quickly responded to say that it wasn't true that she was upstairs making dinner while they were fucking that they only did it while she was out.

Bedman

It’s nice to see that your wife at least pretends to have some standards.

I disagree with the people who say to be patient. And there are a lot of people who urge patience. I am not one of them. Every day you are in pain and she shows no remorse. You are on fire and being urged to hold off on jumping in the pool". One of the few tools you have is to file for divorce and see what her reaction is. But as you resist this, you live upstairs and she lives downstairs. You argue. You set yourself up for a false DV complaint. You look at a woman who has no remorse after having an extremely nasty affair and has little or no respect for you or others around her. You will continue to be depressed and rage. Sitting around the house and stewing about things won't get you closer to any final solution. It will negatively impact reconciliation if that's what you want (I wouldn't in your case and it seems like you don't know) and it will prolong a bad marriage. So you are in limbo. Limbo is not a good place. Right now, it appears that you are taking no action. You have called her out on her lies but that's it.

I have a different opinion on your situation. I think and gently that you have a problem with co-dependency and low self esteem. You have admitted the latter. You are paralyzed due to the affair and who it was with and her lack of remorse and having endured it while she wasn't stopping it. Based on this paralysis, you can't act. You claim the kid's welfare but there are many, many cases where kids are fine or even better off with divorced parents than they are living under the roof of a bad marriage.

So it is easier to talk yourself into 'taking your time' because others urge it and 'taking your time' can let you avoid making a tough decision that you don't want to make. But you are also delaying your healing and while you may sit there and act like you are in a bubble, you have reminders living with you everyday that the ghost is still in the room. You need to end the haunting. Instead, you just moved (temporarily) the ghost.

Do NOT move out, get a VAR, 180 hard and file for divorce. See how she deals with that. If it drives her further away, then you have your answer. If she continues to act the same, you have your answer. If she gets closer to you, then you have to make the decision regarding whether you can stay with someone who did the things with him that she did, won't open herself to you sexually the same way, someone who cheated on you, someone who had an affair with a married man, someone who had an affair with her best friend's wife, someone who consistently lied, someone who has been in your face about it, etc...

Don't avoid dealing with the ghost in the room

In the meantime, read Melodie Beattie "Codependent No More" and Robert Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy" I think both can help you out

bedman, you have reached a good position that puts you in the decision making seat.

I believe the urgency to file is to show the betrayer you are not going to stand for the infidelity- a tangible expression of the destruction of the marriage by the cheating spouse. Filing does help you start healing faster regardless of what the wayward does because it is a solid step in accepting that the old marriage is dead.

Waking you at two in the morning is scary (I got an actual knife wielding death threat wake up at two in the morning from my exww). Be careful. Keep the VAR handy at all times. Be wary of desperate strategies from your wayward- especially the false domestic violence charges.

If she does get violent, do not hesitate to call the police. If you have any doubts this could happen, remember how it was hard to believe she was having sex with another man.

It is good you are prepared to hold the 180. It will be a good tool to help you maintain distance and keep an objective eye on the crazy in your life. It will also help you keep the focus on helping your littles deal with this, too.

Remember how remorse was described in earlier posts and in the healing library. Use that as your measure for true remorse. Set your bar and do not lower it.

The blameshift of trust is a tragic funny. The "you can't make me," is even more tragic funny- and an insight into the frame of mind of your wayward.

Doing well. Stay strong.

[This message edited by quedagh at 8:37 AM, June 16th (Thursday)]

I cannot agree with the other posters more. Not only should carry a VAR but I would even recommend having something like GoPro to record video as well.

We've seen BS be subjected to false DV charges before.

Also be very careful in how you word things. Besides false DV charges your WW could very well carry a VAR herself and attempt to bait you into saying things that can be used against.

It may sound extreme but you must think of it less as protecting yourself and more as protecting your children's father. Also, bear in mind your WW is in self-preservation mode and wants to blame you for the consequences of her actions.

p.s. It might even be worthwhile to engage a lawyer and document with that lawyer your concerns about how your WW may react. Give a detailed accounting of your lives together, routines, etc.

I hear what people are saying. I get that some feel she will not make a true effort to R if I don't move forward with D and other consequences. I realize I may have to move in this direction . Does anyone feel there is a sense of urgency in moving in that direction immediately? I am in a much better spot for myself today than I have ever been. I don't know if I want to R but I am not making any decisions at this point. I realive it has to be a decision that's made not for fear of breaking the family or being alone.

In my opinion, you don't have to file for divorce immediately. You're still pretty early in the process, and quite honestly, you're doing much better than most BH's I've read about here (myself included). She is only now beginning to face consequences, so maybe she'll begin to come around.

That said, filing for divorce now could be a real positive. It will keep the pressure on and introduce even more consequences...not a bad thing. If she does have a change of heart and shows true remorse, you can cancel the filing at any time, so you don't have to make a final decision about D or R right now. That's probably the most important aspect of filing for divorce...it puts/keeps YOU in the driver's seat.

Also, having a VAR on your person at all times is an excellent idea.

[This message edited by PlanNine at 8:46 AM, June 16th (Thursday)]

Whew, brother. You have your work cut out for you.

She is being defiant, and I know it hurts. There is a funny thing about defiance: when you give defiant people what they want, it rarely works out how the want.

She says she can't trust you?

You, completely calm: "Wife, I would not want you to remain married to someone you can't trust. Expect to be served by x date."

She says she can't believe you would expose?

You, completely calm: "I am sorry you feel that way." Notice there is no justification there, right? Stop arguing with her.

And please...PLEASE...stop telling her you are doing it for her own good. That is patronizing (I know she deserves it) and will do zero good. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

She is looking for reactions from you. any reactions, whether positive or negative, will feed her need. Do not give them to her. Simply reflect them back at her. It keeps you from arguing, and stops you from feeding the emotional vampire.

Memorize the following statements:

"I am sorry you feel that way."

"I am not okay with...(insert whatever may apply, eg "blaming me for your choice to cheat", "yelling", etc.)."

I told my wife exactly what I said

Detach and don't engage in this. She doesn't deserve explanations or detailed conversation until she is actually remorseful. She is only interested in getting information so that she can tailor her denials, find ways to manipulate/control, understand what your strategy is and devise ways she can try to smear you once she starts her campaign with friends/family.

She had looked through my phone.

Unlike her, you weren't unfaithful, haven't lied, aren't being emotionally abusive and don't have anything to hide. However, there are some things you need to safeguard (e.g. conversations with your attorney, financial info, etc.). You'll also want to ensure that she doesn't trace your activity here simply for the reason that this is your safe place to vent, be encouraged and get advice.

my wife left our early morning conversation saying she doesn't trust me now

Blameshifting and a guilt trip. It's all manipulation. Trying all kinds of tactics is going to be the norm for right now.

I can't make her move out.

If she would have accepted your proposal on her own, it would have been a bonus for you and your kids. At least she moved to the basement so there is some degree of space between the two of you.

Once she starts thinking more about the situation, does research and even sees an attorney for herself, you should expect her to try other tactics in an attempt to put you at a disadvantage. As others have suggested, get a VAR now and keep it on you ALWAYS. She only needs to get you to become angry and engage in any form of physical contact once to allege DV.

I am not making any decisions and am just gathering information.

Every betrayed spouse is hit with shock after Dday and each person handles that differently. You have to wrestle with this yourself and you have to move at the speed that you feel comfortable. Each person's ability to work through the cognitive dissonance of finding out their spouse isn't the person they have believed them to be for so many years differs. If you read through the FAQ for Betrayed Spouses (http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp), you'll find the 180 which advises detaching. That approach is focused on this end result -- getting the time/space away from the abuse, manipulation and control in order for your mind to clear. That can take some time.

Does anyone feel there is a sense of urgency in moving in that direction immediately?

Set aside the whole issue of shock for a second. You have a core set of needs that should also be your own boundaries -- you need to be loved and respected. Anything less than that is unacceptable and you should be very, very clear about that.

Based on your posts so far, from the moment you discovered the A a little over a month ago, your wife has been lying and manipulating. While she has recently changed her tactics even as recently as 2AM, she continues to lie and manipulate. This is incredibly disrespectful and unloving. Due to this, you should be communicating through words and actions that you won't tolerate this. That includes taking steps towards divorce (remember, you can always slow the process or stop it if things change in the future).

Put shock back into the equation. You need to do the best you can. At an absolute minimum, implement the 180 as it is clear that your wife has been emotionally and psychologically abusing you, so you need to allow yourself to see more clearly what is happening. If you want to give yourself a week until the next MC session to see how things progress, you don't have to rush anything.

My $0.02 would be to use the coming days to get everything in order. Separate finances, work to protect yourself, understand your rights, etc. and sort out what position you would take in terms of a divorce. That way should your wife continue down her lying, denying, manipulating path, you will be able to take quick, decisive action. That could be before or even at the MC session next week.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 10:27 AM, June 16th (Thursday)]

You are getting good advice from some of this board's best and respected posters.

Yes my self esteem is low and I have always suffered from low self esteem. Is there codependency? Maybe. I am an only child of a single mother. My father left when I was 2 years old. He has been in my life but he likely was having an affair when he left and is still married to the AP. He's had 3 other childen via this women. My mother remarried when I was 16. I did not have a good experience growing up without my father in a single parent home. As I try and wade through the emotions and get to the core of why I might not leave it is my 3 boys. I will challenge this of course in the months that come. That children do better in homes with 2 parents is supported by science and it is also one of my core beliefs. My wife is a very good mother when she is attentive to them. I want my children to grow up in an intact family. I realize this belief makes me vulnerable to potentially making a less than optimal decision about R.

My wife is talking about the affair freely with me now. I listened to her phone calls to her brother and sister and she was taking ownership of the affair. There were a few stumbles that I called her on like saying that her BF's marriage was already in trouble before the A started. Uh not true. A group of 8 (including my wife) took the AP's private jet for the OBS's 40the Bday celebration to Las Vegas in November shortly before the A started. This is where the A's ground work was initially laid. Also that she has felt remorse and guilt from the beginning of the discovery. Its her position that she has always felt guilt and remorse bUt hasn't been able to express it to me. Of course this is bullshit and is what led to the exposure to her siblings and the subsequent phone call and me asking to leave the house.

I only have so much time in my day. Can someone explain where I find the article on what true remorse looks like.

We live in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in a large city. My wife works at a large local company and a lot of her clients have become her friends. Most of her clients are at home mothers whose families have a lot of wealth. Over the past couple of years my wife has become closer with thsee types of people. She has always been impressionable. Some of this circle of at home wealthy mothers would speak of having affairs and my wife began to think that an A wasn't as bad as she felt in her earlier Years. To complicate my story more the OBS was one of these people who had had an ongoing affair. When my wife found out about the OBS's A I am not sure, but that helped justify in her mind having an A herself and with her BF's husband. My wife as she puts it began to become envious of this lifestyle. Her 2 sister in laws also live lavish lives. While we have money we are not independently wealthy. Again as she puts it in her warped mind her AP (this millionaire) would be able to provide this lifestyle. The allure of his power and money, factored in with his endless compliments of my wife, and him being one of my wifes clients led the warped fantasy to take hold and move forward. He started to give her large monetary gifts and be more complimentary. She had thoughts that one day they could be together and she could have that lifestyle. The back drop of all of this is her mother dying and to some extent our marriage not being perfect. But when the world took her mother away my wife says she said fuck it to her standards,morals, marriage and children and sought out all things that would make her happy. It became a singular mission for happiness, excitement and pleasure. She claims she never once thought of the ramifications of the A and me or the children and that she had a singular selfish ambition. I asked her how could she be so selfish? She said remorsefullt she didn't know but that in some ways she has always been selfish. She has also spoken about the details of the A. That he asked her how he would like to have sex the first time it happened and she said from behind. That also the very first time he ejaculated in her mouth. That was very hard to hear that this happened all the first time they had sex. She also said the sex was always quick out of necessity of not being caught. They initially fucked at his home and he has 4 you'd children. She says the sex would end and they would put there clothes on and interact like nothing had happened. My wifes diary documeneed this and how confused (used) she initially felt. She has admitted that she was also using him.

My anger has subsided and what feels like an endless sadness has set in. I will honour and let myself feel the sadness for now.

I appreciate the recommendations. VAR is not needed. It is just not needed period. Our finances have always had a level of division. I have tested this guy by using my wifes phone to see if he will respond. He doesn't. I think he was using my wife and has moved on to other conquests and truthfully has lost interest in her. My wife could probably cajole him unto another rendezvous but I believe she won't be doing this in the current environment. I know my wifes where abouts, have easy access to her phone, email etc. I have grown tired of checking up on her to sone degree. If she wants to cheat I have come to terms with the fact that I can't stop her entirely. She is in control of her own decisons. My wife comes from a religious back ground. Given the stress hardship and the upheaval our house and our families have endured during the past month and a bit I think it's highly unlikely my wife would put herself into a similar situation. Most of her workplace know because of the OBS telling people. The people that influenced her have abandoned my wife and she recognizes what horrible influences they were. Her concert going BF is no longer in her life. This BF has expressed to me her remorse and guilt and that she hopes we can restore our marriage. The lack of remorse and sugar coating continue to improve. I don't believe she consciously avoids expressing remorse and sugar coats the truth. I believe it is self preservation.

I am open for challenges to my thoughs. So please challenge me.

Look, it's up to you if you want to put up with what she did to you. Your wife turned very evil for a period of time and that seed is still there.

There are lessons to be learned such as the fact that she can't be trusted at all, let alone around that group of people. They might be gone but there are others like it that she will attach to. She said she's selfish and she wants that lifestyle and because you can't provide it and neither can she, she is a very high risk to repeat the same behavior.

Your entire last paragraph pretty much tells me that you are prepared to bury this whole thing (rugsweep it) and you are framing her more positively. She doesn't deserve that.

You will probably do some type of reconciliation. I couldn't, because the level of betrayal was very nasty. However, now that you see that low self-esteem and a degree of codependency does not mix well with assertive/selfish and arrogance in a spouse who likes to act like she's 'living large' with very wealthy people, you have three choices

1) Divorce and find someone more suitable for you and who won't take advantage of you.

2) Reconcile but your level of trust for her is ZERO and all of the heavy lifting must come from her. You need serious counseling for self esteem and for the effects of this affair.

3) You can keep trying to justify your staying together with her and over time, the pain will lessen some but will you ever get over it ? NO. I feel your healing will remain difficult with the type of affair she had and what she turned into as a person.

You need to stop spinning your wheels and IMO listen to Crushed7 and prepare for the worst. Right now, you have no gameplan and therein lies the problem

He started to give her large monetary gifts and be more complimentary.

That was very hard to hear that this happened all the first time they had sex. She also said the sex was always quick out of necessity of not being caught. She says the sex would end and they would put there clothes on and interact like nothing had happened.

My wifes diary documeneed this and how confused (used) she initially felt.

I think he was using my wife and has moved on to other conquests and truthfully has lost interest in her.

Bedman

Your wife was basically a high end prostitute.

I have grown tired of checking up on her to some degree. If she wants to cheat I have come to terms with the fact that I can't stop her entirely. She is in control of her own decisons.

Our finances have always had a level of division.

Bedman

The perfect solution would be to divorce her and live together. Demote her to girlfriend. That way you can keep some self-respect and if she does it again she will know that you can easily walk out the door.

The way it is now your marriage contract does nothing but keep you in line.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 1:22 PM, June 17th (Friday)]

Your WW seems concerned excessively or exclusively with herself. Where do you and the kids fit into her world? She clearly has no regard for the your needs or feelings and certainly not the kids either. This is where I point to the fact that she is a shitty mother/wife as she puts herself first and damn or ignore the consequences. My mother was the same way and it destroyed my FOO (family of origin).

Someone who is like this and does not show any remorse, totally self involved, self centered, could even argue narcissistic in several ways, she's not like to be very responsive to you. She is only responding when you expose and put her in position where she has to respond to you. Otherwise she doesn't. These are all things I noticed with my own mother as well.

She needs to make huge adjustments in her life and that goes way past just her relationship with you but her behavior in general. That is not something that you can help with. She has to want to do it on her own. No amount of therapy or meds or whatever will help with that. Her character is where she is going to have to dig deep or you will be living this experience over and over again as I did. And continued to until I went NC.

With all the selfish things that you just point out, does she even want to let go of any of it? What have her reactions been when you called her out?

There are a lot of similarities our infidelity stories except that I was the kid in the story. APs, very similar. Though he wasn't quite as rich but he was very wealthy and my mother wanted to be in that lifestyle. My mother was very image/lifestyle oriented which are narcissistic traits. Their behaviors are very similar with their surface selfishness. My mother was more extreme though as these were just symptoms of a much bigger issue (narcissistic personality disorder) which I'm NOT saying your WW is. She does certainly have the narc tendencies at a bare minimum though.

I do know that things will get worse if she is not able to work on herself.

yop

bedman,

It seems you have resolved to give up.

Why are you giving up?

You went from get out of the family home, you don't belong her because you betrayed me, the kids, and the family to

Shrug, he paid her for sex and she knew it so double foul and she can do what she wants as my wife because she obviously must maybe feel bad because she sees how upset everyone got, maybe shrug.

This is not good for you, Bedman. It does not set up a very positive or remotely happy future for you or the kids.

So are some of your saying that just the pure details of my WW's affair warrant separation. That because she illustrated such selfishness and narcissistic behaviours that to honour myself and my self-respect I need to separate myself from her.

What indication would I have that my wife is healthy to be around? My last post was detailing her explanation of how the affair came to be. That's her interpretation of the events that she has vocalize to me and her siblings. What more should I expect at this point?

You can find the answers to your questions in the Healing Library, Not Just Friends, How to Help Your Spouse Heal from an Affair, posts here in Reconciliation etc etc.

So I'm just going to address something you said. The latest research actually indicates that the key component of raising healthy kids has nothing to do with two parent or single parent homes. It has to do with the level of conflict in the household. A calm single-parent household is much better than a household with two parents fighting.

One rule brother: women don't see their affairs for what they are until the stick of dynamite. Tell everyone everything and file. It's a real eye opener. You don't even have to serve her so she can just see the complaint. NO MORE MR. NICE GUY.