SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Questioningly: I'll read that and then suggest to him, if he indeeds want to learn something from all of this.

Right now, I am very much on the track of divorcing and moving on. I have stated earlier that I just can't see going through all the pain and work with no guarantee I'll come out OK on the other side or that we will. I also know I have the benefit of not having to deal with the agony of child custody and a tangled mess of finances, all things that took their toll on my and my XH in the previous divorce. Thank god! Maybe I did learn something from the last one after all.

I'm bothered most, and I suppose it will always bother me, as to WHY he had to go and do it - have sex with another woman while married to me. What also bothers me is remembering that early in our relationship I was always of the position that I didn't need to marry again and all I really wanted was to have a really great companion. I told him this on many occasions because as we got closer and closer, I was actually "worried" he might want to get married but I definitely wanted him to know that we didn't have to in order to have a strong and lasting relationship. He had been single much longer than me and he started making it really clear he did want to be married at some point and eventually I came around. I just don't get why he would want to be married if he still wanted to sleep around. Makes no sense. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. I admit that whole "being engaged and planning a little wedding" stage was fun but I definitely didn't need it. I should have stuck to my guns! This would be so much easier otherwise....I think. I know being cheated on always sucks no matter what but seriously, that marriage vow is a big fucking deal. How did he forget that?

I am also bothered by the fact I am the more tactile person in this relationship. I love cuddling, kissing and hugging and soon after he got very comfy with me, he started to ease back on that and became more conservative. He would still indulge me every now and then but never as much as I would like. So of course....WHY in the hell would he go looking for that somewhere else? WTF?

And while I am on my rant---RU FKM that he ever thought it was OK to let the OW in our house while we were not there while he was sleeping with her? On at least two occasions the last 4 months she checked in on our dogs, took care of them while we were out of town. WTF? This has me pissed beyond belief!!!! It actually makes me sick to think about her in my house looking at my things knowing she was fucking my husband---and we gave her the key to do it!!! OMG, I can't even. It makes my head spin. If I ever get the chance, I will read him the riot act over that one! I feel like I could literally punch him for this!!!

I have decided I am going to cut and paste some of the most painful passages from the things I have written here and send to WH so he gets a sense from what I have been going through. He won't know I posted them here but I will edit the passages like a journal and send to him. Another poster here made me think he has no idea what I have been through. He needs to know it. Needs to read what he has done to me. Needs to feel my pain in the only way I know to show him after the fact. It won't be the same as witnessing it in front of his very own eyes but if he has a soul at all, I hope it makes him feel that punch to the gut I have...over and over again.

My sleep clock is all messed up today. It's coming up on early morning and I have been up all night. I'm sleeping in a new place, which by the way is quite cozy and will be a great little hideaway for the month. I guess it will take some getting used to. At least Bella likes it. It has a big, lovely yard all for her. It's so nice to have her back with me. Dogs are the best. At least I know she loves me unconditionally!

You are a hero, an example, here on this site. So many of us wish we had done the same shock and awe that you did when the adultery was discovered. I didn't find out (didn't have proof) until seven years after my WW's LTA physical part was over. When I did find out I was almost comatose - not sleeping, not eating, puking, wailing, crying so hard I almost passed out from not breathing (whole body hurting like you indicated). Spaceghost has been mentioned on your thread as the two of you reacted similarly and many of us admire both of you for your strength.

I will say to you what I did to spaceghost. Often decisions, especially life altering decisions, made emotionally turn out to be regretted. I, in my professional career, gave talks along that line. A common theme is to not make those major decisions for some time after a traumatic event like the death of a spouse or something else if at all possible. Six months is usually provided as a guideline but if a year is possible it might be better.

No doubt discovering adultery is a taumatic event. I just offer this as an alternative to what the majority of the support given you. I do not disagree with most of it except the hurry up part. I wish I could have "shocked and awed" my WW way back when like you and Spaceghost did. I'm not opposed to filing either. Where I live, divorce can be granted after 3 months where adultery is the cause. Because I didn't kick my WW out immediately after finding out I am viewed as condoning her adultery. Another kick in th balls. I'm just saying that the once you file you don't have to close the book as quick as that.

As an aside, I'm a Christian. I hardly ever said fuck. When I did I was usually ashamed of myself. Now, it's perhaps my favourite 4 letter word.

One of the things about your situation that is different than mine, though, is that you both had been through this before. You with an xH and him in his FOO. I said adultery was a deal breaker for me but I really didn't know what I was talking about. I thought I did but I didn't. You and Spaceghost both did and it really was a hard line.

What I'm suggesting is that you don't rush things. You have filed. The process is started. You can move it forward at your own pace. I wish you clarity of thought (which you have), strength and courage (which you definitely have), and healing from the second painful betrayal from the one who was supposed to love you the most. I'm suggesting this alternative but it is you who are facing it now for the second time and it's your life, your decision. Like always, take what's best and leave the rest.

I've just read all of your posts, TurnOtherCheek, though not the replies to them.

I'm sorry that you find yourself here, and I'm glad that you found this site. It is filled with lots of amazing folks, eh?

You did very well from the beginning, you were firm, you held your own counsel, you did the shock and awe thing, and then you shut down communications and retreated for a week or so to heal. You did the 180 so well it should be renamed The TOC.

And now you've opened communications again. And, I have to wonder why? Did you not expect the texts from him to come rolling in? Did you want to talk to him again? Do you, really deep down, want him to come up with the words that make it all better, or at least open the door and start the journey to all better?

There's a thing that you can read about on wikipedia, look up Transactional Analysis. From that viewpoint of human interactions, I have to wonder what you are getting or seeking to get from the current interactions with him? You could have, after all, stayed completely dark and just let the D run its course. Then, in a while, you'd have been D'd and never have had to have interacted with him ever again.

Are you waiting for him to get it? Are you, deep down, _wanting_ him to get it?

Are you just so confused from all of this that you just want an explanation?

In my opinion, from reading what he expected lunch to be like, he is still viewing himself as the selfish little center of the universe and your life. I mean really, he expected you to fall into his arms and talk it out? Granted that your response to finding out threw him, still, couldn't he be reasonably expected to understand that he just tore your heart out and that he isn't safe for you to invest in emotionally, to turn to for comfort?

I mean, you're both obviously quite successful in your chosen fields. And the greatest predictor of success in a chosen field is IQ, so...?

Back to Transactional Analysis.

It seems that _his_ goal from that particular transaction is to pay a surprisingly small penalty for betraying and deceiving you. That, after a short period of him comforting you ( "I just tore your guts out, here's a Band-Aid. All better?" ), it would be back to status quo at the TOC house.

BTW, ever think that the WS's idea of the size of the penalty that they must pay is directly related to the size of their empathy? Interesting correlation there, if you think about it.

Enough about him. We care more about you.

So, I have to ask, in Transactional Analysis terms, what do _you_ want from your exchanges with him? You were so dark, and now you've opened a sub-channel of communications. He was so in your life with marriage, and FB, and texting, and calling, and all the rest. You shut that down and now you've opened a small sliver. A sliver that he _will_ turn into a torrent of texting.

TOC, my hurting and confused friend, what do _you_ want to emerge from that sliver-now-door?

As a small aside, steer clear of the wine for a bit, eh? Don't want that healthy spa glow and the firm resolve to disappear into the bowels of The Bottle now, do we?

Plus, hangovers, bleh. Leave you feeling like shit they do.

[This message edited by devotedman at 8:00 AM, October 3rd, 2016 (Monday)]

Devoted Man:

So, I have to ask, in Transactional Alalysis terms, what do _you_ want from your exchanges with him? You were so dark, and now you've opened sub-channel of communications. He was so in your life with marriage, and FB, and texting, and calling, and all the rest. You shut that down and now you've opened a small sliver. A sliver that he _will_ turn into a torrent of texting.

Thank you for making me think on this. I have been asking all along WHY? I guess that really is what I was hoping to get out of communicating with him again. Maybe it's a sick curiosity but I was hoping he came up with a really great answer, one that would make me understand in some way. Not having answers to huge questions is really bugging the crap out of me. I also figure after 8 years I should at least give him the chance to explain. I guess I really don't need to but it seemed the decent thing to do. I'm trying to take the high road. Be the adult. Be civil. Maybe to my detriment.

I do know this. I'll be fine without him. Eventually. That gets me through to the next day. Knowing i am one day closer to that.

SteadyChevy:

As an aside, I'm a Christian. I hardly ever said fuck. When I did I was usually ashamed of myself. Now, it's perhaps my favourite 4 letter word.

Believe me I took much more from your message than that line but seriously, I have never used this work so much but really, right now, it is the perfect word for everything I feel! I can't stop using it and I have tried. Thank you for sharing with me.

As an aside, I'm a Christian. I hardly ever said fuck. When I did I was usually ashamed of myself. Now, it's perhaps my favourite 4 letter word.

That makes three of us. I never swore. I do now. Fucking Arse was all I would call him for months.

I understand your need for an answer but unless he looks inside himself, really looks inside himself, he is not going to find his whys. And, even if he does the work, you are not going to get an answer quickly.

You have opened yourself up to a flow of communication from him. Is that good for you? If not, shut it down and think hard about how to proceed in a way that is good for you.

SI and the people on it are fabulous.

You are getting great advice.

(((TOC)))

TOC, his why is rooted in his selfishness. His selfishness and entitlement is rooted in his FOO issues (Family Of Origin). You're both smart, the difference is you're decent and he's entitled.

He's going to turn that entitlement of his loose upon you again. In fact, he already has with his current style of communications.

He really does need months of IC to figure out his Why(s). He first has to break down _his_ walls against "being in the moment" and why doing whatever he bloody well wants to do is okay with him.

You won't get answers any time soon, not real, deep, introspective, accurate ones. And by the time he really gets it you will have either moved on -or- taken on trying to R.

Exemplar: He's surprised at "your wall". What the fuck did he expect? How did he really think that you'd react to being betrayed in the worst way possible? Oh, he thought that you'd turn to him for comfort. Telling, no? And so, with this deep level of introspection that he's got going on in himself, how do _you_ think that he's going to continue to react for the foreseeable future?

Again, what good is his current and projected style of communication doing for _you_?

Because, up until now, everything that he has done he has done for _him_. And that's how I see it continuing.

One more thing - if you want a _really_ amazing time with _really_ amazing folks who "get it" then you should look in the Fun&Games forum and look at some of the G2G (get2gether) threads. I've been to one, it was amazing. I'm going to another again later this week.

I can certainly guarantee that you've never been in a group-y, party-y atmosphere with conversations like these going on from time to time.

Best set of words that I've seen strung together to form a description of this crap? "Fuck those fucking fuckers." That's from a BS that I knew years ago. He had a lot of buried anger that wasn't so very well buried.

EDIT - thar wuz typos. naow thar ain't.

[This message edited by devotedman at 8:27 AM, October 3rd, 2016 (Monday)]

I have decided I am going to cut and paste some of the most painful passages from the things I have written here and send to WH so he gets a sense from what I have been going through.

I was going to suggest this. You have been so strong that but you should be heard. His version of the story is... she is divorcing me because I slept with the dog sitter....True... but there are many, many other "rules" he broke when he did that...I'm positive he doesn't get how rule it was to let her in your house, to have you pay her for her "services" to thank her for being so good at her job

I would want to add in how cheating was a deal breaker for him...why not for you?

I don't think he has a clear understanding of what he plans to do to save the marriage...or a clear understanding of how hurt you are and the many things he did that hurt you.

Your writing in the above post is great. It comes from someone that was badly hurt, is confused about why it happened, is not taking the blame and is strong, willing and ready to move on.

I don't think you should recommend that book to him, or anything else. He has the Google machine just like the rest of us. He figured out how to be the Candyman, he can sure as fuck figure out what gives him the best chance of winning you back. Maybe not a good chance, but his best chance.

My advice is to continue with the Divorce... it'll take some time anyway. You can always stop the proceedings later. Many here have said that you should get divorced in any case, since that marriage is dead. There may be a new marriage to him in the future, but it will NEVER be the same again.

Keep considering what you want out of each communication from him. Keep it on track. What he wants out of it is meaningless. He gave up his say in YOUR relationship. If he don't like it? Well, you know what to do.

Lay off that wine, sister. It doesn't help. It really doesn't. Get crazy with the exercise instead. Force yourself to eat calorie and nutrient rich food when you can, and keep drinking water. Lots of it.

Change:

Lay off that wine, sister. It doesn't help. It really doesn't. Get crazy with the exercise instead. Force yourself to eat calorie and nutrient rich food when you can, and keep drinking water. Lots of it.

No doubt! Yoga has become my drug. The wine will definitely be rationed. Thank you.

I could be totally off on this just throwing it out there.

Could your need for communication with him be not only to get the why but deep down are you hoping he will say or do something that will make you change your mind?

If your mind is made up that D is the answer, why does the reason make a difference because trust me when I say no why my WS has given me has ever been good enough to justify the act.

You are a strong women and I know you have taken what everyone here has said and helped it to empower you, however we have no emotional attachment to this man and so walking away seems easy to us to say but not so easy to do as you can see alot of us choose to R.

With that being said you can certainly walk away and guarentee yourself he will never cheat on you again but you are only away from one uncertainty to the next. Because the next guy may do the same.

Good luck on whatever you decide I think everyone here is rooting for you weather you R or D.

TOC

Your post asked for advice on how to respond.

He...asked that I let him somehow figure out how to make things right before totally ending it, signing on the dotted line.

Cutting and pasting the thoughts from your posts that expressed your pain will be good for you. Something that you can use as a benchmark for your healing.

I've mentally done that with the things he has said to try and gain an understanding of him as a person. I suggest you cut and paste those as well.

Those two things can form the basis of a response to him since I do find value for you in what he has said. Paraphrased:

'all you had to do was ask', 'I thought I could get away with it', 'I hope you will let me try and find a way to explain', 'grow up', 'why did you file (2X)', 'envisioned day going differently', 'taken aback by the distance/wall', 'sorry he's the reason for the wall', ...ending with 'figure out how to make things right'.

The quick assessment is that he is fvcking clueless. The more considered approach is that he is lacking empathy. Deeply. He seems to have no ability to place himself in another person's circumstances. Have you observed him in the past being able to empathize with others? I believe his lack of empathy is evidenced by his lack of non sexual tactile connection.

Since he has little or no feeling of empathy he is unable to relate to your emotions and pain.

Your response to him can be to show the dichotomy between your journal entries and his communication to you. That his communication shows you that he has no understanding of another person's pain. That he seemly can't relate or express in even minimal terms how his actions have deeply hurt someone and irreparably harmed your relationship. That his communication is devoid of emotion and wildly out of scale with the depth of the betrayal.

Should you chose a response such as this, don't give him the "answers to the test" again as another poster pointed out about his failure to "get" the Sunday lunch. Let the response be just that and see if he can connect the dots himself about what he has to do to fix himself.

Hey TOC, you continue to think this through brilliantly and as a result are making great choices in how you communicate with WH. You are doing so well while no doubt feeling so sad.

I thought a lot about WH's comments to you Sunday and think I understand why they bothered me so much. The phrase "sorry I was a dick" in particular should be put together with the equivalent "sorry I was a bitch" phrase and buried someplace deep and far away from healthy relationships. They are said not as an apology but as an excuse -- the hormones made me do it.

"I was a dick" is not a Why, and even worse suggests that he won't go looking for a Why. It suggests that overwhelming physical and chemical urges were at the root of his behavior and that you should accept that as an answer.

Now, once again you called him out on his bullshit and let him know that won't fly with you. For the umpteenth time, bravo.

You are moving forward. He is at least for now receding in the distance. It sounds like you have a great support group gathered around you, and you know better times are ahead. Trust yourself, and if at some point you want to explore whether this particular man deserves to be in your life in some way, trust yourself on that too.

But the odds ain't looking too promising...

So far so good. I would try to let him GO though. There is no good that can come of sharing your feelings with him. He's shallow and clueless and SO not worth it!! I believe NC is healthiest for your healing. Don't reach out. Let HIM work!!! If he wants to figure it out and change and do the work: let him. You've given him the best opportunity. Filing was A GIFT. Hfs. Be brave. As my Jewish grannie used to say "Stay shtum."

Ya'know TOC.... I'm of another camp regarding telling your WS your feelings.

Don't. At this point in time you are divorcing him. Why would you care if he understood your pain? He will be out of your life and someone else's problem.

We all wish there was some way for our WS's to really truly understand just how hurt we were by their action(s). But they never can because they were the ones who willingly had sex with another person; they willingly betrayed their promises to us; they conscientiously lied to us to hide their actions.

While it is not in OUR make-up to cheat and hurt our spouse, it is in THEIR make-up to do so.

Everything you would send to him will have to go through his internal filter of privilege. And there will be stuff stuck in that filter.

Ask yourself if there isn't some part of you secretly wishing to get back together. That he will do something or say something that will stop the divorce from happening.

I get it.... you want him to feel PAIN. But they can't really. Because they were the one's to cause it. And to feel it would bring them to their knees and into the pit of despair.

So I'm of the camp of don't bother to send it to him. Why waste the effort and time on someone who can't comprehend it.

k9

I am so sorry you find yourself here, but so glad to know we were here for you to find. I am late to this thread as I rarely read in JFO, but your thread stuck out when I clicked on it. It also brought back a lot of how I felt because my discovery was similar to yours.

I was working out of state at a new contact job. I had just started and loved the people, the area, and especially the job. It was everything I had ever dreamed of. I flew out on Sunday afternoon and flew home on Thursday night. XWH#2 and I decided that it would e great for him to come out for a long weekend and we could do all the touristy things that I had been unable to do due to my long days.

Anyway he flew out and we had a fabulous weekend and I put him on a plane home, switched rental cars, and had just got to my hotel when my phone rang. I didn't know the number, but for some reason I answered it. That's when my world as I knew it came to an end. OW was on the phone telling me all about their 2yr affair and that she lived in my home while I was gone, they were engaged to be married, and he would be asking for a D. I was in total shock but somehow was able to finish my work week and flew home a day early. I went straight to the attorney and filed for D before I ever even seen XWH#2.

I should have went through with it, but I listened to my heart instead of my head and we decided to R (or rather I did) He kept the A going and took it further underground with each discovery. I did this for three years until he finally lost it one night and assaulted me. I had him arrested and that was the end of anything we could ever have together. He went to live with OW and I was left to deal with the selling of the house/land/community property as well as refiling for D.

I tell you this because I believe that unless they show true remorse from the get go, then you are just wasting more time by trying to R with a unremorseful cheating spouse. I agree with the other posters that he has a total lack of empathy for you in thinking you would just fall into his arms and forgive all (BTDT). This shows his total sense of entitlement.

If I were set on D, which you sound like you are, then any future contact will be more of the same and will only add more hurt on top of what you already have. As the layers are pulled back and you can see him in his true form, which they hide so well, you will see him for what he really is and not the person you thought he was.

In a way I wished I had just went through with the D when I first filed, but I was sick (literally at that point) and too weak to fight him. He said all the things that your WH said, but it was all a lie to go along with all the other lies. I was also guilty of wanting to hold onto my marriage and my life as long as I could. I was scared shitless of the change and another ugly D.

I just wanted you to know that I am so sorry he did this to you. If you want to know the "why" of it all, it usually just boils down to they were given the chance and they took it with really no real thoughts of the consequences when/if they are found out. This is who they are and more than likely will always be. I waited for the "why" and all I got was blame shifting and more lies. You WH sounds much like the same kind of man as my XWH#2. In the end he will take the road of least resistance (D) over trying to really fix himself and the marriage and make himself a safe partner. (((HUGS)))

Hi TOC,

I totally understand why you reopened the channels of communication to hear what he had to say for himself-----

AND what came out of his mouth says it all, I think.

He is truly at the center of his own universe, isn't he, and you are just a pawn.

If you want to know the "why" of it all, it usually just boils down to they were given the chance and they took it with really no real thoughts of the consequences when/if they are found out. This is who they are and more than likely will always be.

I think that for most WSs, the "why" boils down to:

they chose their own selfish desires over you----they really did not care what their cheating would do to you.

Of the BSs on this site, I would guess that more have R'd than D (altho the mods would have a better idea.) True, there are some who say that they have happily R'd, but there is a third category here as well-----those of us BSs who are in limbo.

We are still married, but we are not happily R'd, we have just not D'd.

In my case, I kicked my WH out on Dday,& started D proceedings, but ended up allowing him to move back home a few months later because of our 4 kids. As I told you in a previous post, now it is 5 years later and I am living in limbo-----he has not really done the work--only taken baby steps, he still doesn't really know his "whys", and I now see how truly clueless he is, and how he lives his life with his head buried in the sand.

Knowing what I know now, if there were no kids involved, I would never try to R.

There are many similar patterns in infidelity (the WSs all seem to follow the same handbook), and we have been able to help you navigate that.

At the point you are at now (you have gotten yourself out of infidelity)---there are infinite factors (both yours & your WH's) affecting how you will decide to proceed from here. We will not judge you and we will support you no matter what you decide.

However, from all of the stories I have read on here for years, this is my take on your lunch conversation with him:

IT WAS ALL ABOUT HIM.

Think about how that might play out over the years to come, if you go back to him. You don't have to consider children this time around, just yourself. Do you want to spend the rest of your life with this person?

[This message edited by mchercheur at 1:18 PM, October 3rd (Monday)]

(((TOC))))

The "why" is the most maddening part of all of this. It will make you insane. It's a rabbit hole that has no end. It's the most crazy making part of these stories of infidelity: you had a great spouse who loved you, you had a beautiful family, and a stellar reputation...Why would you do something so destructive to all that? And not just as a ONS, but repeatedly. It literally begs belief. You may get some insight on this in time and from some discussions with your STBXH, or you may not. At the end of the day the only person who can ever truly answer that question is the actual WS. Whatever their "rationale" is, it won't be the utter truth. In my opinion, this kind of a question can only be answered after a metric fuck ton of therapy by the WS to figure that shit out for themselves. Some WSs do that kind of work on themselves, many do not. I think that the only good candidates for R are the WSs who start asking themselves that very question after witnessing the consequences of their actions. But...I wouldn't hold my breath.

I recently re-watched the movie "Heartburn" and there's a scene where Nora Ephron's husband goes to get her in New York and asks her to come home. What I didn't catch the first time I saw that film years before having a similar experience, was that he doesn't apologise to her. He never did.

As for all you people and your new found swearing, I'm not proud to say that I texted the OW on the night I discovered the A, and referred to her as a C***. I pretty much never call her anything different so one time when I was trying to control my language in front of the children, and was struggling to find another word for her, one of my kids (English teenagers so it's a commonly used word in their lexicon) said, "rhymes with blunt...?"

WHY?

Good luck with that. How could you ever hear a "reasonable" reason to such an unreasonable act like infidelity. As many others, I've read 100s of stories on this and other boards, and have yet to hear a reasonable answer to why. The Reason for that is that there isn't one. You are chasing a unicorn.

As far as what he can do to stop the divorce,tell him there is nothing he can do. You're on the right track (and always have been). If once the divorce is final and the dust is settled, if he wants to court you and try to re-win your heart and your trust, then let him try.

[This message edited by RubixCubed at 3:21 PM, October 3rd (Monday)]

I honestly have a bad feeling about you telling him how did you feel, sharing a book self-help book, etc. Why to stay in contact? It does not look healthy to me. TOC, I wish you will trust your head more than your broken heart.

I tell you this because I believe that unless they show true remorse from the get go, then you are just wasting more time by trying to R with a unremorseful cheating spouse.

I completely disagree with this. After reading on here for close to two years, I think there are very few waywards who are remorseful from the get go. For many, it takes a really long time for them to really see the horrific damage that they've caused.

I have followed this thread from the beginning, anxiously awaiting updates. Like everyone else, I think you're incredible; you have done everything right. Sadly, many, if not most, make horrible decisions after Dday. This includes both betrayed and waywards.

I am embarrassed at how I behaved after Dday. I did everything wrong. Begging, pleading, agreeing to allow him to keep his whore, etc. oh boy, was I pathetic. I cannot believe the things I said and did and and how I allowed him to treat me. But as embarrassed as I am over my behavior, I can only hope that he's just as ashamed over his own behavior immediately following Dday. Hell, his behavior for the next year.

We are 21 mths out. It hasn't been easy. Too many days, I wanted to die. But I do believe all of this will be worth it.

I wish you the best.