SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

"All this" is the work and whatnot that is going to be associated with trying to make this work. I hope that book will help her understand. I just started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (just now) and I can relate very very closely to all those men in the intro, haha. If you've read it, it can probably put my whole take on this into perspective.

It may not matter that it was one time, 10 times, or 30 times . What matters is you're trying to attempt reconciliation with someone who is lying to you. There can be no lies from the WS during reconciliation.

She's supposed to be trying to build back trust. You shouldn't be pretending to trust her. Of course you should not trust her.... she's lied and cheated for three months......and may still be doing so.

If she doesn't like the fact that you can't trust her then she needs to look in the mirror and figure out why you can't trust her. You cannot tiptoe around your WS during reconciliation. You have a right to be sad, hurt, angry, and especially have a right to not trust her. Trust has to be earned back, over a long , long period of time. Through honest, consistent, and remorseful actions. It takes 3 to 5 years to heal from infidelity, and that's no exaggeration. If you try to rush the process, and it is a process, then you're rugsweeping, and not doing you, your wife, or your marriage any good.

You need to tell her what your requirements for reconciliation are. They should be at least.....

Full transparency at all times. You get full access to her phone bank statements Facebook , email, etc. Passwords included.

She answers all of your questions with complete honesty. And no blame, anger, or defensiveness.

She goes no contact with any friends who knew about the affair, and didn't tell you. Those are not friends of the marriage, and they will need to go.

She goes to IC to figure out why she would allow herself to do this. She did not cheat because something was wrong with you, or the marriage. Something is broken and hurt that allowed her to do this.

She needs to be proactive in healing the damage she has caused. Whether that be reading books , or whatever you both feel is necessary, she needs to do.

She needs to understand this is not going to be a quick fix . That it takes 3 to 5 years to heal from this.

She needs to go no contact with the other man. If that means she has to find another job, then she needs to find another job.

And anything else you need to help yourself heal.

Also you need to follow through with the polygraph. She may not like it, most WS don't like it, but those who want to reconcile will do anything, including a polygraph to do so . She doesn't have to like it. I'm pretty sure you don't like the fact that she cheated on you right? So yeah, affairs have consequences and this is one of them.

And do not share this website with her. That is extremely important. This is your safe place.

A friend who went through something similar and reconciled with his wife asked me "does it matter how many times it happened?". It doesn't to me but if she is lying about it it's not going to be easy.

it doesn't matter how many times, because once is enough. It is the lying that matters.

Your wife seems to think lying is acceptable behavior. She lied in the past, she lies today and she will lie in the future.

She just doesn't seem to think this is very serious. She will have more affairs in the future unless she gets help.

Ask your friend, does the lying bother him. Many times it is said that the lying is worse than the deed.

Your wife is lying and you are letting her. It is time you get proactive, talk to a lawyer, find your options and stop letting your wife walk all over you.

Has she changed therapists, have you talked to this therapist yourself.

TAKE CONTROL yourself today!

desertmirage,

28 years ago my fWW and I did not have the resources available to us to help us reconcile and to help me heal that you have. There was no SI, no How to Help Your Spouse Heal, and much more. We did not know to ask if our MC had experience with infidelity (he did not). We muddled through and were lucky enough to have a happy marriage.

However, the unanswered questions and inconsistencies ate at me like acid. We are now going through a second reconciliation. My fWW gobbled up How to Help Your Spouse Heal. Understanding what she put me through has made her more caring. She cried while she read it. She is an active participant in the re-reconcilation.

I see you have a lot of "(haha)" comments. That is very passive when you need to be aggressive.

To pull off a successful reconciliation, which means you are BOTH happy and secure in the M, not just you, means that she MUST do the work to fix what is broken in her and to help you heal. Both of you can then work on what is needed to make the M better.

Remember, a successful R = a happy marriage with happy, safe, and secure members.

To do this, you have to take a stance. You have to risk ending the M in order to save it. Luckily, I figured this out for myself. I had been doing the "pick me" dance before I confronted my fWW with hard evidence of her A. However, when I confronted her, I gave her 30 seconds to choose between me and our DD and the OM. Anything other than choosing me and she would have had to leave our house immediately.

She stayed.

So if you need a poly, she sits in the chair and answers the questions or she leaves, period. When you have the truth, good or bad, you can start to heal.

If you get the answers you need and truly heal, you are in for a 2-3 year voyage. If you don't but you stay M, you will be in hell for the rest of your life.

Doubling back to what you wrote here...

She shook her head and looked disgusted when I mentioned it as something that was recommended we do. I played it off as a joke but shouldn't have. She will view it as me not trusting her at all and if she is indeed telling the truth, why would I not believe her (is what is going through her head).

You're worried about her reaction.

Why?

She's the one who cheated and you walk on eggshells and are worried what she might think.

You seem conditioned to react this way (i.e. codependent). I recognize the symptoms. I was the same way.

As far as your WW's confession goes there are three reasons a WS does this.

1. Remorse, which unfortunately seems to be rarest motivation

2. Pre-emption because the A is about to be exposed. Many a confession has been framed as remorse only to turn out to be pre-emptive.

3. Exit-A, where the WS has decided to leave so it really is less a confession and more of an announcement.

Your WW was #3 at first. She confessed and moved out saying she didn't know what she wants.

I'm not suggesting you should file for D.

I'm not saying you can't R.

I'm saying you need to redefine how you deal with your WW and yourself.

You need to put yourself first.

Your WW's thought processes all seem to be be about her. What she wants and thinks she needs.

You hit the nail on the head! I am reading No More Mr Nice Guy right now, and I am definitely a nice guy. I try so hard to just do what my wife wants so I can keep her happy (I love it when she's happy). I wonder if I was smothering her this whole time. She still does want time alone. She is not entirely happy about staying at home, but I don't care. I'm going to finish this book and start implementing it into my life. I bet a lot of this stuff will get fixed if I can fix my own personality and behavior.

If you demanding she take a poly ends the marriage, then she was on her way out already.

I'm so glad to see the change in your tone, desert! I hope you, as most of us, will eventually learn to stand for yourself instead of avoiding conflicts and hiding your fears deep down your mind. I wish you good luck, and I still have a feeling that she simply wants out and that's was her motif to reveal you the "truth".

But most importantly, it is simply great that you chose to focus on your personal behavior and education! It will make you a different person, good luck.

I wonder if I was smothering her this whole time.

or maybe think of it as "Maybe this whole time I wasn't thinking of myself enough?"

I bet a lot of this stuff will get fixed if I can fix my own personality and behavior.

What is "this stuff"? Nothing you do about your behavior and your personality should be about anything but your own health and well-being.If it's motivated by what she wants or what you think will keep her interested in staying with you then it won't help either of you.

The hard truth is that even if you address all of your issues, whatever they may be, she may still not want to R.

Why? Because you cannot control her actions.

I agree with this. I probably am smothering and have other undesirable traits. This book is amazing! I'm going to be working on it from my end. What you say about her is spot on though, I can't change her or fix her. I need to stop trying. It's the "nice guy" that doesn't want to ask her to take a poly because it will upset her. I need to take control of what I want and need. I do want to know if she's lying about it, since the gap of sex in late june to kissing in early september is just too great for nothing to have transpired. At the very least flirting and whatnot, to maintain the interest to lead to a "kiss".

I do want to know if she's lying about it, since the gap of sex in late june to kissing in early september is just too great for nothing to have transpired. At the very least flirting and whatnot, to maintain the interest to lead to a "kiss".

The poly is your answer to that.

If she won't do it then what is the consequence?

Hopefully she will agree but if she pushes back the answer is very simple.

You (WW) want the possibility of R? (notice there isn't a promise of R) Then do the poly so I know I have the facts. You think I don't trust you WW? Yeah, I don't. Why would I? You confessed to lying and cheating on me. Confessing to a lie is not a trust restoring action in itself.

We got your back! You are after all a lifetime member of the club now.. Keep posting even if it is just updates.

You need to let HR know immediately. Otherwise she is still in the affair with him while at work and comes home to you.. Get control, demand polygraph and set it up and don't cancel.

[This message edited by sneaker at 4:05 PM, September 22nd (Thursday)]

The list is: be more together (ie she feels "alone" in our relationship as we don't share a ton of hobbies/interests so she wants to find some that we can enjoy together), she wants deeper conversations (ie more than the "how was your day" etc), she wants to try to rekindle the flame of a new romance by making a bigger effort to date each other and do fun things.

I wonder if I was smothering her this whole time. She still does want time alone.

You are trying to jam square pegs in round holes.

Step back and discard the whole ridiculous story and let her start again. Start with why she confessed. Was she ready to leave other man but he got cold feet at the last minute? Or was someone else about to come clean about it - maybe a husband of a girlfriend or sister who knows?

Erase the blackboard and start again.

I think I know your wife better than you do. Cheaters don't do what she did. If she is telling the truth, then it is just the tip of the iceberg, missing huge pieces from the jigsaw puzzle.

One of the biggest mistakes people make when posting on SI is thinking their case is unique.

There is no denying that for YOU then YOUR case is unique. It’s unique in that it’s YOUR marriage, YOUR wife, Your reality. However – what’s not unique is that chances are your actions and reactions and the actions and reactions of your wife are relatively predictable.

It’s a bit like flipping a coin: We can predict with 50% reliability whether it will be head or tail. We can predict with 100% reliability it will be either. Maybe – after a thousand flips – the coin proves us all wrong by landing on its edge. But all-in-all our predictions will pan out to be relatively correct.

Same with how things go in infidelity. We can give you quite an accurate plan for how things will go.

Statistically infidelity per se seldom leads directly to divorce. It definitely leads to a worse marriage and – given time – this can be a major reason for divorce. But generally when an affair is discovered the affair pans out (over time) and the WS remains in the marriage. You could ignore the affair. You two could argue a bit over the affair. You could have her sleep on the couch for a week. Over time things will thaw out. The affair seldom lasts and in a year or two you two will be… OK… Not great, never a healthy marriage but OK. But you two will spend years never discussing or resolving that big ping elephant prancing around in your lives.

I think MOST people that go through infidelity do precisely THIS. They ignore addressing the issues and learn to live with it.

Stats also show us that affairs seldom last. I guess the average length of an affair is less than a year. If you do nothing, then the affair will end. Eventually. But whatever made your wife decide that having an affair was a great idea… THAT will remain. Chances are she will cheat again. It’s precisely due to the frequency of untreated infidelity that we have so many repeat-offenders.

Realistically you neither can nor want to have to monitor your wife for what’s left of your marriage. In fact – you shouldn’t have to have a need to know if she’s committed to the marriage or not. In an ideal world she should commit to the marriage and OM and his whereabouts be a moot issue. But this isn’t an ideal world. Reality is different. For some time, you need to know, she needs to be accountable. Over time that need has to diminish. But for now you NEED to be intrusive on her privacy. You NEED assurances.

OK – This is what we can tell you with a very high level of certainty:

You don’t know the truth. All my years here on SI I don’t know of a SINGLE case where the truth was on the table from day one. There is some secret, some detail, some important fact that you don’t know. This is 99/100 correct.

Even IF this was the coin landing on its edge and the 1/100 case where the WS tells the truth … You aren’t certain. You will have your doubts. IMHO if you want to reconcile you need to do one of either: Decide you know the truth already and work from that OR create the conditions where your wife sees that telling the truth is the lesser of two evils and finding a way for YOU to be convinced you have the truth.

You can’t recover from what you don’t know. Since you don’t have the truth or can’t confirm you have the truth there isn’t really any realistic way to reconcile the marriage. What if they are working one-on-one all the time? What if he’s on the same business trips as she is? What if it’s been going on for ages? What if… what if… what if… These what if’s will erode ANY ability you have of being able to reconcile EVEN IF your wife was being totally honest. You need the truth, and she needs to share the truth and do it in an accountable way.

The poly? That can be used as a tool to verify what she says but it works both ways… If she passes a poly, then you need to start giving her back some trust.

Ignore the infidelity and it will repeat itself. Maybe not with this OM, but whatever made your wife decide to have an affair is still there. This is why stats indicate a person that has already cheated once is 5 times more likely to cheat than someone that hasn’t cheated. It’s not about the OM. You wife didn’t cheat because of YOU or because of OM. She cheated because of HERSELF. That won’t change unless she wants it to change and works on it changing. You can be the catalyst that makes her realize that.

Experience also tells us that it’s at best a 4/10 chance that the affair really is over. She might have the best of intentions for it being over. But then one day some weeks or months from now when they are working at some deadline and he leans over to point out some numbers… Or maybe even tomorrow when she’s funky because of the situation at home… Or maybe because you keep on being demanding on her accountability… whatever triggers her to reply in kind when and if he gives her the infidelity signals.

Experience also tells us that it’s a very rare case where a couple reconciles with no accountable no-contact. I would give your marriage AT BEST a 2/10 chance to reconcile while they work together.

I can’t stress hard enough the importance of notifying HR.

As has been pointed out by people with HR knowledge then the OM is in the hot-seat if you notify HR. I am a manager at a mid-size company. I also have a degree in finances and management. It’s a well-known fact that managers are NOT supposed to have personal relationships with their subordinates. If it does happen the manager better report it and figure out ways to rearrange the supervisory role. Once reported the subordinate WILL NOT be fired. The company generally comes hard on the manager because this is a major threat for the company being sued for sexual harassment.

Do as I suggested in an earlier post: Contact HR and tell them about the affair. Follow up with an e-mail to the HR personnel you talked to so you have a traceable confirmation. Do this without even warning your wife. Just do it.

In the conversation make the following points clear:

-They are having an affair.

-You are certain he used his position to woo her.

-You view this as sexual harassment.

-You are concerned that the company won’t take action to protect her and her marriage.

-You expect the company to take action and to inform you what they have done to protect your wife.

The above is mainly to place emphasis on the company that you see him as the instigator.

So what will happen if you contact HR?

Undeniably there is a 1/20 chance WW will be fired. But so what? How many jobs have you had over the years? How many wife’s? People change jobs all the time.

There is a 9/10 chance your wife will go ballistic. She will tell you that the exposure really makes her doubt she wants to reconcile. She will pack a bag…

There is a 9/10 chance that if you stick to your guns and insist NC is necessary for reconciliation that she will calm down in a day or two.

What will happen is that OM will remove himself from your wife. Either because he commits to his job, your wife is removed from his domain and they are both aware of HR monitoring them or because he’s fired.

Do you really think no one at the office knows of the affair? What with kissing (or more) at the house. What with self-admittedly getting drunk at a work-function and ending up having sex with OM? Do you think your wife being in an environment where people know of the past and the history is going to be good for either of you? Ask your wife about that. Ask her if she thinks nobody at the office knows. Ask her how you will feel if you go to a work-related event with her.

I have relatively standard advice I offer husbands dealing with a cheating wife. The key is accepting that there is something worse than being in infidelity. Namely REMAINING in infidelity. I think a BS needs to commit to getting out of infidelity. This is NOT the same as committing to divorce or committing to reconciliation. R and D are simply forks on the path of getting out if infidelity. Right now you aren’t at that fork. Start walking and soon you get there. Once at that fork then your WW actions and what you want determine whether choosing the path or R is available for you or if you need to take the path of R. But that fork is still some way to go.

So this is what I suggest you tell her:

“Wife. I have put a lot of thought in what’s going on and have realized that remaining in a marriage that’s in infidelity is immensely worse than losing you. I am willing to do a lot of work to save our marriage but a) I won’t do it while you are in infidelity and b) I don’t think it’s possible while the truth isn’t on the table.

You are free to see OM. You don’t have to hide the affair or sneak about. But not as my wife. If you chose to remain with OM, then I will accept that and move on. If you want the marriage, then you have to tell me so directly and commit to what I think is needed so I feel we have a chance. That includes telling me the complete and total truth, accountability and openness. In return I commit to working on our marriage – even if the truth is worse than you have already told me.

Until and unless you tell me you want this marriage and follow it through with actions I am simply assuming the affair is ongoing and will do what I need to make certain I get out of infidelity.”

I'm in total agreement with what Wk55hn stated. You need to start from scratch here. You need to find out why she confessed . This just doesn't happen , something preempted this confession. I believe if you find this out you will have your answer if your wife really wants to R or not.

You need total transparency and I for one don't believe you have it yet. She doesn't seem to be doing anything to help you heal..

And yes here not willing to take a poly is a huge red flag. You need way more from her than what your getting.

CDB

So after today I decided to start the 180. I was super upbeat and cheerful when I got home. Took charge of dinner and doing things about the house. We were chatting I was telling her about the great books I read today. I told her that despite what happens to us, I was happy to know that I would come out a better person and better informed. She asked me if I was talking about divorcing her and I said yes since there were so many holes in her story and essentially a missing 2.5 months it was impossible for me to trust it. She paused and then started crying (first real emotion I've seen). She apologized to me and said that there had been two other kisses and flirting around the office. She apologized for doing this to us and wished she had never started anything with him. I told her that I didn't understand why she told me of it in the first place and she said she just had an overwhelming sense of guilt and thought I had to know. She is going to follow up with OM about transferring. I told her he probably won't do it since what is he going to say to his boss about it. She is going to give him 1 week and then tell hr if he doesn't get it done. She cried again and apologized again. It's nice to see real emotion. I do think she's being truthful this time (I know, I know I keep saying this) but at least it makes more sense. She told me she loves me a few times and is totally committed to fixing this if I am. I told her I'd think about it but need to be happy. I think this was really really great. It felt real and genuine for the first time and I finally felt that she was actually sorry.

She likely does love you.

She likely does want things to work out with you.

And she very likely is still lying.

Follow up with the poly. If she has given you the truth she should be willing to confirm it. If she does not agree you don't have the truth still. Good luck.

Just echoing the advice you have been given, lies and trickled truth and gas lighting with blame shifting usually rule the day for months after a disclosure.

My wife lied so much it was hard to fathom. God, she told me lies about having sex, so I had to deal with that, only to have the truth about sex later, and deal with that as well.

She should not be talking with him about his job choices...she's not his mom, his wife, or his friend, she's his subordinate, who should do her job, and should have gone to HR when he started the comeons. Yeas, I'm sure he's looking at job options, because every place in the USA, probably Canada as well, FIRES you for this...look at roger ailes after someone really came forward.

FYI, 25 years ago this was a 1 million dollar harassment payout if the company was insured or lucrative.

If I were you, I'd be the one going to HR...marriage in tatters, trust ruined, alienation of affection....if you are going to have to go through hell, they may as well take the same ride.

And, you, are, going, to , go, through, hell. I have been there, as has every other BS.

Realistically – How does the conversation about her changing bosses go?

I have been in management for a very long time. You don’t go and offer one of your team to someone else without a reason.

If the OM goes to HR to request her transfer, he needs to give a reason. He won’t willingly tell HR about the affair. He could say they don’t get along but that will either get WW fired or leave a mark on her record. Managers don’t willingly shift their good staff. Without the real and true reason there isn’t much chance for your WW to transfer within the company without lasting negative effects.

He could bypass HR and get one of his friends to request her. But he has to give that friend a reason. What reason could that be that won’t negatively impact her career?

Plus, her being transferred – That will only confirm the office rumors. Like it or not and no matter what your WW says the affair is probably common knowledge at the company. Her getting transferred for no direct reason – it only confirms the rumors.

So if HR is aware of the affair? Chances are they won’t do anything official. OM will get a quiet warning. If this is his second plus workplace dalliance he might get fired, transferred or demoted. They won’t touch you wife directly. She too might get a warning but they won’t fire her because you followed my advice and made it clear OM was the instigator and used his position of power. Chances are they will try to solve this issue quietly. The OM will be in a position of weakness in how they solve this and your WW in a position of strength.

Chances are she will be transferred but that’s GREAT for you. Next time you drop off her lunch at the office you won’t have to wonder if those guys are smirking in your direction (because they KNOW). Sometimes HR pull favors, contact colleagues in other companies and find a comparable job. This is usually provided with a golden handshake so your wife willingly accepts changing jobs.

To me it’s a win-win situation for you.