SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Candyman,

I'm a FWW. My husband's treatment of me surrounding sex went on for years before any infidelity. I was innocent. He had no justification for his action.

Post Dday was a continuation and ramping up of the same behavior. Which judging from this thread, is totally justified.

No justification for his action till my action, now his is totally justified, yet the action I did to cause his later action has zero justification whatsoever. Go figure.

ETA: For funsies, y'all check out "Tea Consent" on YouTube.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 10:11 AM, May 20th (Saturday)]

Candyman66

No, this is good. I have the most sympathetic group for my pain as a BS, and THEY are totally pissed about how I treated my W pre-A.

When I see the fear in my W's eyes that I may not get it? That fear is underneath and becomes the anger (righteous anger) being shown. I don't want my W's anger/resentment anymore. She had A's. I opened the door, she took the opportunity because she is broken too. But I did a lot of damage that I need to account for.

I am the WW on the WS thread who needs to own his shit before R can happen.

Notthevictem

To me that makes sense. Someone can call me something and I don't care. But my W. She cares. And maybe it is that it comes from me. She cares MORE. That is one of those things that frequency isn't the issue with my situation. It is the atomic bomb that leaves the radioactive particles in the atmosphere for a LONG time. I think she can recall everytime I've done it. Seriously. She just doesn't forget. One July 21, 2003 at 8pm you said...

Thanks whoknows. A lot of that is familiar. I appreciate your thoughts.

I hate it. I hate him when he does it.

Right now, I'm not supposed to ask for anything. No sex, I love yous, etc. I said no to some. I have said that I need to be loved by my W. Regardless that we are doing in house separation.

So, here is a question to add then? How SHOULD a man approach this? Should a woman always be the instigator? In my case, it seems like that is going to be a way of regaining trust. How do women expect the man to respond? I don't like going to bed and not knowing if we are or aren't going to make love. Or just going to bed and not know until I see my W's hand turning off the light. What communication would help? Assuming I've helped with kids, dishes, she had a chance to sit and text/read have her wine, etc...

Aubrie

Thank you for your response. Especially because you have had the experience of my W.

I would really like to hear more. And how you can heal. What you need and expect from your H?

This sounds similar to my situation with my WH. It was soul-killing, and I only lasted a few years.

If you have been doing this for 17 years, then I am sure you only have a shell of a wife remaining. I am very empathetic to her situation.

How often did you "demand sex"? Was it daily? Regularly? Each time kills a bit more of her spirit. Trust me. Sex is supposed to be mutual and consensual. You do not own anyone.

It sounds like your marriage was all about your needs...this is a problem.

You should google "marital rape".Here's what I found:

Being married doesn’t change the social rules. Just because a woman said “I do” to marriage doesn’t mean that she has said “I do” to sex whenever, wherever, and however her husband wants it. Married sex, like all intimate, loving sex is consensual. It is a way that two people who love each other express love and caring and communicate tenderness. It is not one of the following situations:

Forced sex.This should be obvious. But some men have the mistaken idea that marriage changes the rules. It doesn’t. If a husband holds his wife down, pushes her, or imposes sex by hurting her, it’s rape. Making love doesn’t include making someone cry.

Sex when the wife feels threatened. If a husband forces sex through verbal threats of harm to the woman or to people or things she cares about or if he comes to her in a barely contained rage, she can’t consent. She can only comply rather than risk being harmed either physically or emotionally.

Sex by manipulation.If a husband calls his wife names, accuses her of not being a good wife, or blackmails her emotionally by suggesting she’s so bad in bed that he will go elsewhere, he’s manipulating her. Some men even threaten to leave and take the kids with him if their wives don’t comply with demands for sex. When a wife falls for these tactics, it isn’t consent. It’s rape.

Sex when the wife can’t give consent.Loving sex is genuinely consensual. If a woman is drugged, asleep, intoxicated or unconscious, she obviously can’t give consent. Even if she says “yes” in such circumstances, the “consent” isn’t valid or truthful. She’s in no shape to consider the consequences or to participate as a willing partner.

Sex by taking a woman hostage.Some men keep themselves in a position of superiority by controlling all the money, by making contact with friends and family difficult to impossible, or by making sure there is no way for her to get transportation out of the house. The woman becomes a hostage in her own home. Like many hostages, she gives up and gives in to whatever he wants — including sex.

Sex when the woman feels she has no choice.Giving in isn’t the same as giving consent. When a woman feels that it’s just easier to give in to sex than to respect her own needs, she is being raped.

Let’s be clear: Being married doesn’t make any of the above situations okay. Wives do not belong to their husbands. Sex is not a “right” that goes with marriage. It is not a wife’s duty. A woman does not give up her right to say yes or no the day she gets married. Sex should be based on respect, equality, consent, caring, and clear communication.

No woman wants to feel like she’s living with a rapist. Good men don’t want to be one.

A couple can sometimes back away from hurtful sex on their own. But often, anger, disappointments and the emotional hurts that are the result of forced marital sex are so intense that it takes some specialized treatment to heal the relationship. If a couple wants to stay together in spite of an incident or pattern of marital rape, a couples therapist can help partners heal the hurts and develop a healthy way to be sexual with each other.

But if the husband refuses to take responsibility for inflicting emotional and physical pain and even feels justified in his actions, it may be that the only way for the wife to stop it is to leave.

To me that makes sense. Someone can call me something and I don't care. But my W. She cares. And maybe it is that it comes from me. She cares MORE. That is one of those things that frequency isn't the issue with my situation. It is the atomic bomb that leaves the radioactive particles in the atmosphere for a LONG time. I think she can recall everytime I've done it. Seriously. She just doesn't forget. One July 21, 2003 at 8pm you said...

Right, but did it get filed away because she was really hurt by it, or did it get filed away because she was keeping score and wanted to use it later?

The problem I faced as a dude is that I was completely unaware, untrained, and unskilled in the art of emotional manipulation. I didn't realize it was a thing until my wife was using it as a distraction when I was expressing my outrage at her cheating. Then it kinda clicked, and made the connections to all the past times she had done it, and I went 'oh shit. she's been doing x, y, and z to use (sympathy, shame, guilt, anger, whatever emotion she needed at the time) to get me to do stuff or react a certain way.

To give an example, my wife cleans up all the time. Which I love. But her version of a clean counter has all that shit on the counter shoved in a drawer underneath instead of put back where it goes. It looks clean, but the inside isn't. And every time I brought it up, she would deflect by making it seem that she was emotionally hurt that I didn't 'clean' as much as she did (even though both her and I know that I pulled my weight on the shared duties there. The fact that when I clean it takes longer because I'm ALSO putting shit back where it goes is often ignored.)

So when my wife pulls up a name I called her 4.5 years ago on Thursday, the 14th at 7:30, the first thing I do with that is a double-check to see what she's trying to accomplish with it. And I don't think that it's necessarily a malicious intent to manipulate as much as just that her ability to communicate is probably twice as good as mine by including a channel that communicates by and through emotion.

(Other readers, please keep in mind that I'm not addressing the sex piece of Catch's questions, just the name calling one).

Catch, I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. I've been struggling with someone similar and the responses on this threads have been very enlightening.

How to heal? I guess like everything else, time and consistent positive action.

I didn't "demand" change till 3 years into R. Three years in was our ultimate "Come to Jesus" with everything marriage related. It's when he finally realized he had a problem. It's when he realized he wasn't seeing me as a person but an object. Ironically, the same things I'd been trying to say to him didn't register till he was listening to the radio and heard a DJ discussing the same thing. Hearing a man's voice say it caused the lightbulb to go off.

He's had to learn to get over his entitlement. He's had to inspect his selfishness. He's had to ask himself why he viewed me as property. He's had to look at what he really wanted out of a marriage and what the purpose of intimacy was. Was it to enhance and nurture the marriage? Or was it just to get off? Because he sure doesn't need assistance to get off. He's had to learn to respect no as no. Not as a maybe. Not as a "If I harass her enough she'll give in". No means N-O. Period. No disclaimers. No complaining. No threats. No throwing my EAs in my face as justification. We are beyond that.

Now? I'm allowed to say no. It doesn't come without fear. Because for so long, no ended up in catastrophe. I still panic. Fight a feeling of dread. Wait for the shoe to drop. Wait for the anger. But he's showing me that it's safe for me to say no. He's showing me he respects my wishes.

During R I didn't hold this issue over his head. Thought about it a lot. There was a continuation of feeling "icky" about anything bedroom related. Guilt from my actions prevented me for a long time. I cleaned up my side of the street. He finally picked up a broom and worked on his.

WARNING: this is not going to be the typical response.

I feel like my perspective is going to be different than most from multiple experiences. My first marriage (high school sweetheart) I never said no really but when I wasn't in the mood etc I would have a "let's get it over with" attitude. Sure we had issues, I would blame that on not wanting to be intimate. He cheated, I hated him, took no responsibility. I thought I was being a great wife!

I cooked, cleaned, did the "wife" things. But

Never took into consideration how my attitude about his attraction toward me effected him. We divorced.

I remarried years and years later with a little more life lessons under my belt. Determined to be the VERY BEST WIFE on earth! I was madly in love! What could go wrong? Now the roles were reversed! I wanted my husband with every fiber within me! I was so madly in love and Crazy attracted to him. I wanted to rip his clothes from his body anytime I was near him! He however, was on pain pills which pretty much killed his sex drive w me anyway. This constant rejection was devastating. I felt hurt, ugly, fat, disgusting, not worthy... and the list goes on forever. I never had an issue w self esteem before then, not ever. But the rejection over and over was a serious drain. He of course never even acknowledged how this would hurt me. Instead he would slut shame me for wanting him. Much like wives will call husbands rapist for wanting to have sex w them. Wtf!?!? No that is NOT ok. You are

MARRIED. And if you want your spouse to be faithful to you, don't tempt them to go elsewhere for love, or sex. Yes we all need our other needs filled too. But withholding sex from your spouse is fucked up. I'm sorry I know most won't agree. Let's be honest here, what's that going to set you back? 15-30 mins? An hour on a good day!? You can't set that much time aside for your spouse? I bet you had time to watch the walking dead, do the dishes, walk the dog, chat w your buddy on the phone, check your FB. MAKE YOUR SPOUSE A PRIORITY NOT A THING TO DO WHEN YOU HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO! I am a mad hatter, meaning that I had a ons and so did my husband. I do NOT justify my cheating because of his rejection. But I do realize the "why" of it. I am NOT blaming him for my actions, but I am a very loyal person in general in all of life. No way would I have ever come close to straying if this had not been to the extreme. I didn't deal with it in the correct way. I lashed out. I fucked up royally. I would give anything to be able to take it back. Absolutely worst thing I have ever done in my life to myself or anyone else. But back to the sex- We have struggled with that part of our marriage for the most part of it. He did get a little better about it and not being so harsh n the rejections. Still the damage was done. It hurts. It's difficult to keep trying to get someone's attention when they keep shooting you down. He did finally do something about it and started testosterone therapy which helped. He had done it once before but quit after about a month. This last time seemed to be really helping. We were having the best sex of our marriage, even though we were having other issues. He was going through some kind of insane jealous phase but even though I would be mad as hell at him we could come together and make love and connect, if even for a small window of time. This was a huge help. I'm positive we would have divorced during that time if not for being able to connect again sexually/ emotionally. Then he went out of town to a pool tournament and cheated on me! He had this woman, old as my mom, out in MY car giving him head and who knows what else. Talking all kinds of mad shit to her, telling her she's his next wife, we were separated, he never had this attraction w anyone else etc. Now this was all while he had a pool game going on. He doesn't ever even speak to me while he's playing. I have tried SO hard to get him to do something like that w me! I have handed him my panties while we were out, I've sent him videos, pics, u name it. Nothing has ever even come close to working. So the fact that he was this way w her floors me. And crushes my heart! I imagine the same way you felt that she is freely giving away what you have had to beg and plead for. It's frustrating and heart breaking. Calling names is bad yes, but whoever is saying they have never gotten mad and said stupid things is lying. So that's not an excuse. Everyone being mean to stayed - I understand the feeling. You are more than happy to do this w your AP but not your spouse? How is that fair? I know it makes it extremely difficult to heal. Women do love to be romanced some, so maybe that would help. Try the 5 love languages. I really like that system. I wish you the best of luck. It's good that you want to do the work on your side too. It takes two to tango. My WH doesn't even want to discuss, we are currently in rug sweeping mode at this time. So I have no idea as to his why. Keep your head up....sorry for the long response.

Imjustagurl, so you would have sex 15 minutes after your husband called you a fucking bitch? Because, hey, its only going to take 15-30 minutes? You think the time is the issue? Yeah, Imma not gonna agree with most of your post but I don't have time to break it down for you.

She has had numerous affairs, tells you referring to one of her partners that she finally found someone who she wants to have sex with, and holds resentments against you?

I really hope I am not reading this right.

I stick with those who believe no one should be forced to have sex. If it's that bad, speak up, and if that doesn't work get out.

I'm just responding to the name calling because I'm a tad too emotional about the "demand sex."

In my experience and there is good research on this, women are wired a little differently than men. How the average female responds to name calling, hitting is very different than the average male. I can still recall the one time my dad called me a little shit, over 30 years ago. I'm sure deserved, but the divide it created and the fact that I can still remember it vividly is scary. And my dad is a great father. But that one time really, really got to me. Did I respond and remember this to be manipulative towards him? No, I never ever let him know how much it bothered me. Back then, because I didn't want to let anyone know I was weak like that, now I think it would make him very sad that I still think about that night.

My ex did not ever call me names that I can recall but he sure did demand sex from me and then punish me if I was too tired. I totally had a higher sex drive than him, he often turned me down before kids, but 5 years straight of pregnancies and extended breastfeeding and then a child who didn't sleep through the night until she was 2.5 years because of her ears, I WAS TOO TIRED. And then it became more of him being an ass and I just didn't want to anymore with him. Our marriage was in shambles when he me someone (although we liked each other and parented very well together), there was no hope for him. I often wonder what would have happened if I met someone or lowered boundaries during that time. Honestly all the women I that I know of personally who cheated on their husbands, happened during this rough time of marriage post kids. Like another posted said, not an excuse but a reason.

I am a FWW and a MH. My experience is quite similar to Aubrie's with a few sexual incidences bordering on rape by my BS after d-day. I wouldn't recommend it. We are now divorced (unlike Aubrie). I can relate very much to stayedforthkids WW, I suspect. I allowed the abuse due to punishment for my shame. I felt I deserved it. It lasted quite a while until I chose to save myself.

I applaud you, OP, for being introspective and choosing to correct your past behavior, irrespective of the A. No one deserves to be betrayed. No one deserves to be sexually mistreated ( or abused) either. You're a good man.

[This message edited by Hope24 at 6:30 PM, May 20th (Saturday)]

Catch44, there is a lot going on in this thread. My H and I are madhatters, and one of our main issues was sex. I felt just like your wife in our M, so I can relate to at least some things being said here.

Our story went like this:

Over the years of suffering through emotions that I did not understand, I repeatedly sought out IC. My H did not, would not. I tried so hard to understand things while he stayed the same.

After being married a few years, I started to hate having sex with him. I really didn't know why. I codependently blamed myself and tried harder to like it. I never said No.

I felt used and abused since he demanded sex all the time, even after a long day of working and raising young kids. When I tried to share my feelings with close family, they blamed me. They said he was a great guy.

I tried to talk to him, but he was not interested in my feelings. He would pretend to hear me, but nothing ever changed. Then he started to act like I was simply never happy, a nag. He was getting more into porn, paying a lot of money. It went from bad to worse.

Then an old boyfriend contacted me and I had an A. I remember thinking, "Fuck my H. This is no marriage. We will both do whatever the hell we want."

He seemed to become obsessed with sex, addicted even. He is also a heavy drinker, maybe an alcoholic. All the responsibility in the family fell to me, even though we both work. My birthday rolled around and all I got was lingerie.

During my A I felt horrible. I sought out more IC and said, "WTF am I doing? And why?" My IC helped me realize how resentful I was of the lopsided dynamic, the unfulfilling "on demand sex" and I was able to end the distraction A--because that's all it was--and confront my H and my marriage. I eventually told him everything and then said I wanted a divorce. I apologized and said, "This is what I should have done years ago, but I was afraid."

He flipped out about losing the M (not so much the A). He angrily met my requirements for working on the M--committment to long-term IC, reading, and making real changes in his life. As he already knew, I had been reading and working in IC for years. (It took many years to see my codependency clearly and make the necessary changes. Overcoming my own dysfunction has been my greatest challenge and greatest triumph.)

We are years into this now. There are layers, layers that I have still not addressed. Sex remains the biggest, biggest hurdle to fixing the M. I am not sure that I can ever allow myself to be vulnerable to him sexually again.

I live in abstinence. I believe he has stopped seeing prostitutes. (He never admitted it even when I first cut him off and thousands of dollars disappeared from accounts. I know full well that his selfishness continued because he 'deserved it' after what I did, and he was NOT going to live without sex, which is what he initially said.)

My biggest regret? I let the sex on demand, the selfishness, and the exploiting my kindness go on for far too long. I let my resentment build. It was my job to enforce my boundaries, and I did not do my job. The resentment that I felt should never have grown to the size it did to kill the M. I never should have hid from my feelings by having an A. I am deeply ashamed. He did not know how I felt because I was not honest, and that was very dysfunctional on my part. He would have gotten into IC sooner if I had stood my ground.

What does this have to do with you?

Sex on demand creates resentment which kills love. So stop it. You will kill what is left of your M, and it's not too late to save your love.

Your W needs to own her own true feelings and boundaries and people pleasing tendencies. She needs to learn to say No in a healthy way. If she has been taken advantage of, then she has to look at why she has allowed that. The cheating was a weak and broken solution that was no solution at all.

When she is living honestly and you are living respectfully, imho, sex can come into your marriage in the right way. Love + Respect + Honesty = True Passion.

I'm a WW. I did the "acquiesce to unwanted sex" because of financial blackmail in one of my previous relationships (not marriage) and I'll just say never a-fucking-gain will I have sex if I absolutely do not want to (not talking about "eh, kinda in the mood, kinda not"). There is no man on earth with a golden enough dick---or enough threats.

I'd also opine that a WW who puts up with this kind of relationship has not done "the work" that she (or her BH) might think she has. She's still letting a man use her for sex, even if the penis is her husband's.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 6:56 PM, May 20th (Saturday)]

Wow. Some of the perspectives on this thread are truly upsetting.

I will say now - I would much rather be a cheater than a rapist.

I truly hope this doesn't devolve into "an affair is worse than rape" or vice versa thread. God, I don't wish either on anyone.

There is a dark side to sex post affair that isn't often talked about here. Or when it is, it's justified (aka sexual abuse towards a WS). It's sad, scary and shameful. I rarely divulge my experience.

Honestly, I still blame myself for the entire experience. Both the affair and the abuse. I know it's wrong, and self destructive, but I do. I've basically written it off as a consequence.

I'm divorced and at peace now which is what really matters.

My WH was into on-demand sex. If I didn't perform, he was either cold or mean to me. He was even mean to me if I said no because I was sick! I came to equate sex with a chore or an obligation- similar to cleaning the bathroom. Over time and with the revelation of his cheating, my desire for him evaporated. The last 10 months, after Dday #2 with OW #2 (long-term affair), I could only get off it we used a toy. We still were having sex 1-2 times a week, but I would pretend that I was into it as a way of keeping the peace and to ensure that he treated me halfway decent. Last July he left me for OW #3.

We can do.a lot of things on demand. Sex is not one of them. Especially first thing in the morning before coffee and teeth brushing. We like sex, we enjoy it, hell even need it sometimes. There is no rhyme or reason to when we want it. But it's not a switch to be turned on. Everything around us can alter our drive or lack thereof. So being called a fucking bitch will indeed dry up the well. Cheating or suspiscion of which turns us into to mighty Kalahari in mid July

On demand sex? Hmmm NO. Hell would freeze over first.

Are you expecting your WW to do this because she had the A? Is this your way of payback for her, by demanding and expecting sex whenever you feel the urge?

I believe that calling her names is extremely disrespectful, and I for one would not put up with anyone speaking to me in that manner. I can understand anger and rage when you find out about the A, but if you have decided to stay together and are trying to work it out then the name calling is off limits. If it was my H I would be telling him to dream on about me having sex with him (forget on demand sex, because that would never happen) when you speak to me like that.

That's my perspective.